Why did Jeff Hickman lie to subscribers about the future of the game?

[Neoeve]

This is very odd.

 

I am playing MMOs since the 2000s and I have NEVER had to play a full sub PLUS more money for some features. To me this reeks of a money grabbing scheme.

 

In "pre F2P era" MMOs you'd get everything for your $15. Everything, save very special services like moving characters between servers, undeleting them and similar.

 

In F2P era MMOs I'd have to buy slots, ability to use gear and similar, sure. But the game costed ZERO recurring sub (a bit like Preferred Status).

 

In other MMOs I'd pay the box (Guild Wars 2) but no subscription at all. Even the additional features could be (also) bought with in game gold.

 

In other MMOs I'd either pay a full sub and have EVERYTHING or pay a "reduced" (halved) sub and separately pay for additional features.

 

So what's the deal with SWTOR having BOTH to pay the full, class AAA MMO subscription AND ALSO pay the "additional features"?

 

Money Grab.

 

Ok i didn't want to but take WoW for example, sure you can change your hair at the barber shop for free but everything else you have to pay.

 

And since you are a subscriber don't you get cartel points every month for free? so you're not really paying extra for anything.

[Aries_cz]

And since you are a subscriber don't you get cartel points every month for free? so you're not really paying extra for anything.

<logic type="typical-forum-user">Herp derp, but I can't buy all the stuff from the Makret with my coins stipend, derp </logic>

[TheShadowsRelm]

I will just be as honest as I can here, it was a poor choice in wording on our part. I know that players have made decisions around whether to remain a subscriber based on those words which makes it all that much more sensitive. I apologize if you feel that you were misled by what we said in that blog. Since this blog I feel we have been more consistent in our messaging that you can expect things like cosmetic and convenience features (like Appearance Designer) are the types of things we usually place on the Cartel Market.

 

It has always been our plan that as new content is released,(such as Flashpoints, Operations, in-game events, daily hubs, etc.) that subscribers will get access to these pieces of content. This is unlike a free-2-play player who will need to purchase access to that content. This is why we stated subscribers gained "unlimited" access to that content, because you get that as a part of your subscription.

 

For Cartel Market items, you have access to purchase all of them, as do F2P players. What sets you folks apart is your monthly stipend which will allow you to purchase those features at no additional cost should you choose. I realize with your stipend, and with all the features we have, you may not be able to get it all at once but you can get it in time as a subscriber.

 

With that being said we have definitely heard your frustrations around Game Updates and the value you feel as a subscriber. I don't have details today but we are continuing to look at options moving forward to make sure that you don't feel that way.

 

-eric

 

 

 

You are mistaken, it was posted on the Launcher that subscribers would have free Cathar race, one free name change, and one free guild change, and free customization on characters. So you better go back and check your data, because YOUR LIED AND NOW YOU ARE BACK PEDDLING SO WE DO NOT GET WHAT WE PAID FOR. As far as subscribers getting access to all content, this update/expansion was the Cartel Expansion that we paid for, so this is a BREACH OF CONTRACT for all subscribers. So tell me we are wrong now.

Edited May 18, 2013 by TheShadowsRelm

[OpenSorce]

Yep, where's my free Cathar, name change, etc?

[LordArtemis]

One free name change for subs.

One free appearance session for subs.

One free race unlock for subs.

Reduction of collection costs or a way to earn limited coins engaging in in-game activities for subs.

 

This would go a long way, IMO, toward satisfying the community.

[branmakmuffin]

Yep, where's my free Cathar, name change, etc?

Save your CCs rather than blowing them on packs and you'll get all that at no cost beyond your sub fee.

[Shoogli]

Save your CCs rather than blowing them on packs and you'll get all that at no cost beyond your sub fee.

 

In 2014...

[branmakmuffin]

In 2014...

I like sarcasm, you clearly like sarcasm. Let's be sarcastic together.

[Shoogli]

I like sarcasm, you clearly like sarcasm. Let's be sarcastic together.

 

I pass, I have higher standards...

[branmakmuffin]

I pass, I have higher standards...

Fortunately for you I don't.

 

But if you want to stop before we even start, just say so. No need to be coy.

Edited May 19, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Exly]

Hey folks,

 

I will just be as honest as I can here, it was a poor choice in wording on our part. I know that players have made decisions around whether to remain a subscriber based on those words which makes it all that much more sensitive. I apologize if you feel that you were misled by what we said in that blog. Since this blog I feel we have been more consistent in our messaging that you can expect things like cosmetic and convenience features (like Appearance Designer) are the types of things we usually place on the Cartel Market.

 

It has always been our plan that as new content is released,(such as Flashpoints, Operations, in-game events, daily hubs, etc.) that subscribers will get access to these pieces of content. This is unlike a free-2-play player who will need to purchase access to that content. This is why we stated subscribers gained "unlimited" access to that content, because you get that as a part of your subscription.

 

For Cartel Market items, you have access to purchase all of them, as do F2P players. What sets you folks apart is your monthly stipend which will allow you to purchase those features at no additional cost should you choose. I realize with your stipend, and with all the features we have, you may not be able to get it all at once but you can get it in time as a subscriber.

 

With that being said we have definitely heard your frustrations around Game Updates and the value you feel as a subscriber. I don't have details today but we are continuing to look at options moving forward to make sure that you don't feel that way.

 

-eric

 

OK. If I understand you correctly, it has always been your plan to give subscribers access to new content such as operations and flashpoints as it is released. If this is true, then why weren't we given access to the "...epic new story content...", or the "...ongoing level 55 content including a new Operation and Hard Mode Flashpoints..." when patch 2.0 came out? Oh, you must have meant that we would only be given these things if we paid extra for them.

 

I am sorry, but I believe that Mr. Hickman would have said practically anything at that time, true or untrue, to appease subscribers in an effort to save a game that would not have survived without them. And now that the game is on a more even footing, the decision was made to turn what Mr. Hickman said into a lie. I believe they did this intentionally, and without any misgivings about the deceptive nature of their decision, and without regard for how we might respond to it. Unfortunately, they will almost certainly get away with what they did, and the result will most likely embolden them to do it again.

[Kubernetic]

<logic type="typical-forum-user">Herp derp, but I can't buy all the stuff from the Makret with my coins stipend, derp </logic>

 

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"Much fun, this is."

Edited May 19, 2013 by Kubernetic

[potrobot]

i hate that im making this comparison but makeb to me felt like world of warcrafts Quel'Danas island which is a place to do some dailys and and new instance/raid... that was a patch if i remember correctly calling RoTHC an expansion seems like a bit of a stretch but hey thats my opinion.. and i agree with OP

[Paitryn]

i hate that im making this comparison but makeb to me felt like world of warcrafts Quel'Danas island which is a place to do some dailys and and new instance/raid... that was a patch if i remember correctly calling RoTHC an expansion seems like a bit of a stretch but hey thats my opinion.. and i agree with OP

 

I disagree. Quel'danas had only 10 total quests for dailies (which unlocked based on server progression) one Raid and one instance.

 

now compare that to Makeb where we got 50 extra crafting levels, 5 levels worth of PVE content (so a lot more than just 10 quests) seeker droid/microbinocular daily, makeb dailies, then new raid and flashpoint, its a lot more. It actually compares more to the current 50 dollar pandaria expac where players without the expac got the pandas anyways so all you got was 5 levels worth of content and new raid and instance.

[LT_CRANE]

Hey folks,

 

I will just be as honest as I can here, it was a poor choice in wording on our part. I know that players have made decisions around whether to remain a subscriber based on those words which makes it all that much more sensitive. I apologize if you feel that you were misled by what we said in that blog. Since this blog I feel we have been more consistent in our messaging that you can expect things like cosmetic and convenience features (like Appearance Designer) are the types of things we usually place on the Cartel Market.

 

It has always been our plan that as new content is released,(such as Flashpoints, Operations, in-game events, daily hubs, etc.) that subscribers will get access to these pieces of content. This is unlike a free-2-play player who will need to purchase access to that content. This is why we stated subscribers gained "unlimited" access to that content, because you get that as a part of your subscription.

 

For Cartel Market items, you have access to purchase all of them, as do F2P players. What sets you folks apart is your monthly stipend which will allow you to purchase those features at no additional cost should you choose. I realize with your stipend, and with all the features we have, you may not be able to get it all at once but you can get it in time as a subscriber.

 

With that being said we have definitely heard your frustrations around Game Updates and the value you feel as a subscriber. I don't have details today but we are continuing to look at options moving forward to make sure that you don't feel that way.

 

-eric

 

I'm a sub and I stil had to purchase RotHC.

[Primarch_PWnD]

Subscribers couldn't keep playing the endgame if they didn't shell out extra cash for 2.0, "as honest as I can be" is the most honest thing in the post.

[Aries_cz]

Subscribers couldn't keep playing the endgame if they didn't shell out extra cash for 2.0, "as honest as I can be" is the most honest thing in the post.

 

Isn't that the case with every expansion pack in every MMO? You need the expansion pack to get to higher levels, even if you are a subscriber...

[Chylla]

Aren't stipends sent out at account renewal which may be scattered throughout the month? How in the world are they supposed to coordinate THAT?

 

 

When our stipends came late one month a while back, it happened to a huge swath of the community that landed on the same date range. BW -can- control when our stipends come out as shown by them tossing out our stipends when they got around to fixing it. Solution is simple: Free stipends for the subs. New race that costs cc? Boom. Send out cc to the subs. If that's not equitable enough, they could create an opt-in to get their stipends early to acquire the race/whatever when it comes out. There's many ways around it and there's just two very plausible ones.

[Darth_Nemisis]

All the updates have been free for subscribers.

 

All of the updates have been free to everyone including f2p. They never had to shell out cash to log in after a patch. They made Makeb into a expansion and instead of giving that to the subscribers to make our sub seem like it ment something we got charged 10 bucks. All updates and content are free my arse. Were even being charged to use the character customization. EA is full of liars and greedy people.

[Cortesh]

I'm a sub and I stil had to purchase RotHC.

 

I'm also a sub but if you had pre-ordered early enough you only paid £5.00 (dunno what that is in US or EUROs)

[Darth_Nemisis]

You are giving them your money. You are a subscriber obviously, since you are posting. One thing you have to learn, if you lie to your consumers, it is called false advertisement. It doesn't get much simpler then that. That whole "things change" argument is a bunch of ********. Do you think the devs at BW walked into EA's conference room and when asked why there's such a dip in revenue, why subs have gone down, why is there this much anger on the forums. Do you really think they will say "Things change." Do you really accept that as an excuse? You are one of those people who roll over for anything aren't ya?

 

Here's something simple: Lying to consumers will lead you to having no consumers left. Is that good business? No. Things do change. But as a business, you better well implement in a way that doesn't piss people off. And BW fails in that regard.

 

This!

[jamesvasquez]

You aren't paying for a product. You are paying for access to a service. The company has the right to determine what parameters dictate that service. It is clearly stated in the EULA. There is no false advertising here. You can piss and moan about it all you want, but it doesn't change that you either deal with the terms, or you move on. Every MMO has similar terms of service, which you agree to when you sign up for the game. If you don't like it, too damn bad. It's not your game. It's EA/BIoware's game. As such they are allowed to do with it whatever they wish.

[Nyaara]

You aren't paying for a product. You are paying for access to a service. The company has the right to determine what parameters dictate that service. It is clearly stated in the EULA. There is no false advertising here. You can piss and moan about it all you want, but it doesn't change that you either deal with the terms, or you move on. Every MMO has similar terms of service, which you agree to when you sign up for the game. If you don't like it, too damn bad. It's not your game. It's EA/BIoware's game. As such they are allowed to do with it whatever they wish.

 

That doesn´t matter. This is not about legal, EULA or crap like that. I dont think anyone here would hire a lawyer etctectetc. So, i repeat, if EULA lets BW to do anything they want to, is irrelevant.

 

The question is if "false advertisement" is a good policy or not. If lying your customers is a good way to keep the product up or not. Talking about MMOs, and taking a look at the past, is a terrible policy. An angry customer will uninstall your game and will never come back. And worse, he will spread the word that the game is not worth the money. EA got very bad reputation due to this. And they will never reverse that cos is impossible to stop that wheel. Another good example was Funcom and Age of Conan.

Edited May 19, 2013 by Nyaara

[Vassise]

bump, get eeveryone to read this

[Pilgrim_Grey]

That doesn´t matter. This is not about legal, EULA or crap like that. I dont think anyone here would hire a lawyer etctectetc. So, i repeat, if EULA lets BW to do anything they want to, is irrelevant.

 

The question is if "false advertisement" is a good policy or not. If lying your customers is a good way to keep the product up or not. Talking about MMOs, and taking a look at the past, is a terrible policy. An angry customer will uninstall your game and will never come back. And worse, he will spread the word that the game is not worth the money. EA got very bad reputation due to this. And they will never reverse that cos is impossible to stop that wheel. Another good example was Funcom and Age of Conan.

 

While I agree that they could phrase things better, there is some wicked hyperbole and unreal expectations in this thread. While there are some MMOs that release expansion packs for free, they are very few. And I'm sure everyone will come up with quibbles as to what defines and expansion pack, but Hutt Cartel is certainly an expansion when compared with most of the other expansions to MMOs out there (and a lot cheaper).

 

If you look at any F2P setup out there, you get some stuff as a subscriber, but if you want it now or it's an expansion pack, you'll generally have to pay more. That's the norm for most games, and for those that don't (like Star Trek Online), I honestly don't know how they stay in business sometimes. You're also going to have a harder time arguing that that is the best way to go about developing a game, since STO has a lot less to do than TOR, much as I do enjoy both games. Both have their own strengths and weaknesses, but I don't really find STO worth a sub.

 

The outrage and annoyance I CAN UNDERSTAND comes from how much is locked behind or focused on the Cartel Market. Yes, a subscriber can save up their stipend to get stuff, but at some point it gets to the point where there is too much stuff to by, or prices are out of whack with what we get for a stipend. It was like this at the start and has on improved marginally with some discounts. I think I've been a subscriber for 5-6 months, and I'm still working on unlocking the basic access to the game for when I'm not subbed (Unify Colors, crew skills, artifact access,etc.). There are also plenty of other things that would be nice to get on the market beyond that, and then the ENTIRE new modification system costs CC! What a lost opportunity that was (and this is certainly not in keeping with other MMOs out there). I'd be more fine with them making new races unlockable, etc., if we were at least getting the access to some character customization for in game credits, etc.

 

That's where the main issue is: too much focus on the Cartel Market, too high of prices on the Market, and the locking of too much new stuff behind the market. There needs to be a better balance between the Market and Development from the devs. And a bit more realistic thinking from some players as well. As a subscriber, I'm not as annoyed at Hutt Cartel costing money. I am annoyed at the stuff noted at the start of this paragraph, and the status of bugs and balance in this game... those things come far more slowly than anything on the market.