What's the reasoning behind Vanguards/PTs not have an execute post 2.0?

[cycao]

It had good burst in exchange for crap defensives and utility. The only people it was OP against were puggers in recruit.

 

lol it had great burst. If you didn't have at least one pt on your ranked team you were doing it wrong.

[Aelaias]

lol it had great burst. If you didn't have at least one pt on your ranked team you were doing it wrong.

 

I am sure. And that one pt would still need help to take someone out in a ranked wz, right?

[znihilist]

they have an execute. hib/rail hits harder on burning targets below 30%, no?

 

You are referring to Burnout in the Pyro tree, it increases periodic damage by 10% for targets under 30% HP.

[ceelaniri]

You are referring to Burnout in the Pyro tree, it increases periodic damage by 10% for targets under 30% HP.

 

DOT dmg are increased by 30% fully talented.

 

not really like an execution at 7-8k hehe

[znihilist]

DOT dmg are increased by 30% fully talented.

 

not really like an execution at 7-8k hehe

 

Oh you are right 30%, that is correct. An increase of 30% is a lot! 7-8k damage becomes 9.1-10.4k damage!

[Aelaias]

You are referring to Burnout in the Pyro tree, it increases periodic damage by 10% for targets under 30% HP.

 

Not quite. It increases tech critical by 1/2/3% and periodic damage 10/20/30% on targets below 30% health. It's similar to skills that sage and gs dot specs get... and completely inadequate. Dots make a very minor contribution to the class' burst other than enabling HiB. The skill would be more relevant if the bonus were applied to targets under 50-60% of health and the dots hadn't been nerfed.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Aelaias

[cycao]

I am sure. And that one pt would still need help to take someone out in a ranked wz, right?

 

What I am getting from this thread and others concerning pt's are this. "I rerolled because this was an easy class (they are all easy this one was just one of the easiest) and put out high amounts of damage and now that they made it into a dot class I want it buffed".

 

Welcome to the state of madness assassins since launch (it got nerfed in 2.0) and mercs in general for the better part of a full year.

 

I still see pt's perform well, they have adapted and can still put out the hurt.

[Aelaias]

Oh you are right 30%, that is correct. An increase of 30% is a lot! 7-8k damage becomes 9.1-10.4k damage!

 

What the hell are you talking about? The only reason why that skill was in any way useful was because it increased the crit damage of plasma cell in the end stage of a takedown. What 7-8k +30% are you talking about.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Aelaias

[Keypek]

Yeah please quit calling Burnout an execute. That is laughable. It WAS a great ability for pve and an ok ability in pvp before plasma cell got the living **** nerfed out of it. But even then calling a Damage OVER TIME ability an execute is funny. Now if it buffed HiB damage by 30% to anyone under 30% that would be more like it.

[Aelaias]

What I am getting from this thread and others concerning pt's are this. "I rerolled because this was an easy class (they are all easy this one was just one of the easiest) and put out high amounts of damage and now that they made it into a dot class I want it buffed".

 

Welcome to the state of madness assassins since launch (it got nerfed in 2.0) and mercs in general for the better part of a full year.

 

I still see pt's perform well, they have adapted and can still put out the hurt.

 

Madness assassins have an execute................ And one class' unfortunate state doesn't justify that of another. Honestly, I feel like this is Bioware's way of forcing people onto alts to increase the chance of them grinding for a bit longer. Some quit of course.

 

I happen to have ADD and yes, I found vanguards especially appealing due to their appearance, a certain military romanticism that only a hardened civvy such as myself could possibly appreciate, and the fact that they had a simple rotation. I tried combat/carnage pre 2.0 and was surprised to discover they were easier than vanguards while having far better mobility and survival. They didn't get the same degree of nerf as vanguards and some say they were buffed. The nerf to vanguards, on top of buffs to heals and rdps have made this class obsolete and there is absolutely no good reason for that.

 

PS. Incidentally, pyros are in a MUCH better spot right now than assault due to an apparent bug with one of the new skills. Ion Pulse DOES NOT gain 30% crit damage bonus from Assault Trooper unlike it seems its mirror.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Aelaias

[Aelaias]

Yeah please quit calling Burnout an execute. That is laughable. It WAS a great ability for pve and an ok ability in pvp before plasma cell got the living **** nerfed out of it. But even then calling a Damage OVER TIME ability an execute is funny. Now if it buffed HiB damage by 30% to anyone under 30% that would be more like it.

 

And/or all elemental damage including IP. Of course, they would need to fix the IP crit damage bonus bug first.

[Stncold]

Because WoW proved how terrible of a state PvP gets in when almost every class has an execute.

[MusicRider]

Such as?

 

What do you mean such as? Vanguards are highly mobile mid-long range dps dealers. I don't understand your question.

[MusicRider]

I am sure. And that one pt would still need help to take someone out in a ranked wz, right?

 

Since this mini discussion is about prior 2.0, well then assault vanguards and combat sentinels were the only 2 classes that could have such a high burst and tools to bring down a scoundrel healer... something that no other class or spec was able to do on its own.

[CBRGhostRider]

It really does come down to different classes being different.

 

PTs do get explosive fuel for 15 seconds, and that is across all the specs. A typical 1v1 would last about 15-20 seconds, and PTs get the benefit of explosive fuel for the most part of it. A many-vs-many skirmish would last for longer if you have lot of healing, but you still get the benefit for some time.

 

You also get burnout, to further increase damage below 30%. Yes, it isn't quite the same as getting an execute, but those two put together aren't bad either.

 

Another example... my assassin has an execute, but does not have heavy armor. I don't think he has to have heavy armor though, because different classes are different.

[ceelaniri]

What do you mean such as? Vanguards are highly mobile mid-long range dps dealers. I don't understand your question.

 

LOL

 

I think that you are confusing, they are mid-range/melee dps with inexistent burst, average sustained dps and weak defensive CDs.

 

Mid-range being 10m in the case of VG/PT and they aren't highly mobile, they dont have a leap in dps spec but a 6 sec immunity to movement impairement sprint. Guardian is highly mobile (2 leaps or 3 depending on the spec).

[foxmob]

Powertech was overpowered for the majority of the game, and popular because of it.

 

not even remotely true. how many classes had to be NERFED before PT/VG became "the class"?

 

let me count:

operatives (concealment)

commandos (gunnery)

sorcs (lightining)

sentinels (watchman)

 

how many classes got buffed ABOVE PT/VG while the latter were constantly nerfed (proc rates twice and range once)? BEFORE 2.0

sentinels (focus)

juggs (rage)

 

after 2.0?

sorcs (lightning)

assassins (deception)

commando (gunnery)

 

my point? PT/VG dps only ever "stood out" after other dps specs were nerfed hard, and even then, they were on par with combat sentinels except better range for weaker utility. and the real problem now is that they are crappy burst AND crappy dot (range is too short). so their only redeeming value is ranged taunts, which their tank spec can do better, but that's still the worst possible tank spec in the game. lol

Edited May 16, 2013 by foxmob

[Aelaias]

Since this mini discussion is about prior 2.0, well then assault vanguards and combat sentinels were the only 2 classes that could have such a high burst and tools to bring down a scoundrel healer... something that no other class or spec was able to do on its own.

 

Actually it's about the state of a class' affairs from pre-2.0 to now. That discussion concerned a ranked wz environment where said scoundrel would have guards and taunts such that a solo vanguard/pt would poop their power-armored knickers 10 times before taking him to so much as half health solo.

 

And 10m does not a middle range make. By that logic knights and sws with their 10m attacks and 30m attacks are midrange classes. They are not, either archetype. LOL at the suggestion that it's a long range dps class; that hasn't been true for a while. Consider informing your opinion.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Aelaias

[Aelaias]

LOL

 

I think that you are confusing, they are mid-range/melee dps with inexistent burst, average sustained dps and weak defensive CDs.

 

Mid-range being 10m in the case of VG/PT and they aren't highly mobile, they dont have a leap in dps spec but a 6 sec immunity to movement impairement sprint. Guardian is highly mobile (2 leaps or 3 depending on the spec).

 

To be fair, I think vigilance guardians are hurting for mobility and a bit of burst dps. Good solo class though. ATM at least vanguards have the mobility they need, but not the dps to be effective against the current healers and rdps. Mobility does precious little when you are getting torn apart out in the open with the only defenses being 25 DR for 12 sec and an adrenal.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Aelaias

[foxmob]

And 10m does not a middle range make. By that logic knights and sws with their 10m attacks and 30m attacks are midrange classes. They are not, either archetype. LOL at the suggestion that it's a long range dps class; that hasn't been true for a while. Consider informing your opinion.

 

you're wrong here. Assault VG IS a midrange class. mid range doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they have certain 30m and 4m attacks. it has everything to do with the range from which they must be, consistently, to execute their primary rotation. and for VG, that's 10m or less. for a mara, that's 4m or less. for a sniper, that's 35m or less. this isn't rocket science. there are clearly 3 degrees of range in the game.

[Aelaias]

you're wrong here. Assault VG IS a midrange class. mid range doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they have certain 30m and 4m attacks. it has everything to do with the range from which they must be, consistently, to execute their primary rotation. and for VG, that's 10m or less. for a mara, that's 4m or less. for a sniper, that's 35m or less. this isn't rocket science. there are clearly 3 degrees of range in the game.

 

Tactics requires you to be in 4m range making it a pure melee spec. In assault you can spam the defective IP from 10m but SS is still the better skill to reset HIB and in my rotation it was applied between AP and HIB. The only classes I know that might have a problem with the 30% snare on assault IP and thus the 10m range are mostly vengeance juggs and maybe carnage (if they are clueless). Considering vanguard's durability the use of grenades is a must in any 1v1 situation. In any case, this is a matter of perception and I insist that 10m for all intents and purposes = melee range.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Aelaias

[Aelaias]

It really does come down to different classes being different.

 

PTs do get explosive fuel for 15 seconds, and that is across all the specs. A typical 1v1 would last about 15-20 seconds, and PTs get the benefit of explosive fuel for the most part of it. A many-vs-many skirmish would last for longer if you have lot of healing, but you still get the benefit for some time.

 

You also get burnout, to further increase damage below 30%. Yes, it isn't quite the same as getting an execute, but those two put together aren't bad either.

 

Another example... my assassin has an execute, but does not have heavy armor. I don't think he has to have heavy armor though, because different classes are different.

 

I know, assassins are so gimped by their lack of heavy armor. This shortcoming is absolutely not compensated for by the 3 second tech and force clear/immunity which negates 99% of vanguard (and other class') dps, get out of combat free card, and a ton of cc some of which vanguards can overcome post 2.0. As well as of course the ability to dump on heavy armor.

 

It's funny there is much discussion of how inappropriate it would be for guardians/sws to have a 4 second baseline stun because it could guarantee a full ravage execution. Don't see anyone suggesting that it's wrong for assassins to stun and get off a couple of mauls followed by another disable and a maul followed by what you ask? Why, an EXECUTE. You are right of course, very different classes. But I am getting off track.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Aelaias

[CBRGhostRider]

I know, assassins are so gimped by their lack of heavy armor. This shortcoming is absolutely not compensated for by the 3 second tech and force clear/immunity which negates 99% of vanguard (and other class') dps, get out of combat free card, and a ton of cc some of which vanguards can overcome post 2.0. As well as of course the ability to dump on heavy armor.

 

It's funny there is much discussion of how inappropriate it would be for guardians/sws to have a 4 second baseline stun because it could guarantee a full ravage execution. Don't see anyone suggesting that it's wrong for assassins to stun and get off a couple of mauls followed by another disable and a maul followed by what you ask? Why, an EXECUTE. You are right of course, very different classes. But I am getting off track.

 

Ahh yes, let's stop talking about vanguards and pick on assassins now, shall we?

 

I've played many specs in the past year and a half (see signature) and while the PT pyro was undisputed king of burst w/ crazy dps, the deception assassin was just a pathetic quick free kill earlier. I'm talking about the first 1 year or so of the game, where I did my rotation (which did not do much) and then found places to hide while my force built back up. And the 3 second shroud that you complain about so much did not do squat for my deception sin back then (which BTW is the only spec I played on the assassin since the beginning).

 

But of course, it didn't bother PT/vanguards back then, did it? And now that deception sins are finally in a good place and PTs nerfed, all hell has broken loose.

 

Look, I feel your pain. Now that the class has been nerfed, you are finally noticing things that did not bother you early on. The sad reality is that this is how it works... the top dogs change every now and then. PTs did enjoy a rather long reign (even w/ the occasional nerfs), but other classes are doing better now. Believe me, even though PTs are not the burst kings now, they are not even close to what deception sins were back in the day.

 

None of this is an excuse for not having an execute, but I still believe that it simply boils down to different classes being different and getting different tools. And if it's not execute or heavy armor, then it will be the PT grapple, or the sorc bubble, or the jugg reflect...

[teclado]

It would have been too much pre 2.0. Now, not so much.

Because they can also tank. They are not an exclusively damage class like gunslinger/sniper/marauder/sentinel.

 

I agree that the new vanguard dps is not very awesome. I've only used mine as a tank since 2.0. However, giving an execute move to a tank class seems a wee bit overpowered.

[Aelaias]

I didn't often encounter assassins because I suspect most people didn't know how to play them. Good ones, especially dps kinetic/balance hybrids wiped the floor with vanguards.

 

The one memorable encounter I had circa last fall was with an infiltration/balance hybrid (imp equivalent). By that point my WH was complete in terms of min/max or near enough that it didn't matter and I did as expected in terms of my performance. I went to cap a node which turned out to be guarded by the said hybrid and was dead within 5-6 seconds. How, you ask? Why, allow me to elaborate. He popped his crit booster and opened with force in balance, followed by infiltration force breach. That took off 7-8 k off my 18k-19k health (armor does nothing for internal damage, you know). He then proceeded to pop his tech immunity making himself non-ccable, slowed me, popped force speed, 2 mauls and EXECUTE. Down went the well equipped vanguard with his adrenal, 25% DR + heavy armor, and near capped expertise. The moral of the story? You were bad.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Aelaias