What's the reasoning behind Vanguards/PTs not have an execute post 2.0?

[foxmob]

Has anyone actually posted before-&-after numbers demonstrating the extent of the nerf? I still see Pyro-Powertechs melting faces within a few GCDs.

 

that's a negative. 1v1, I can still solo others. in fact, I'm able to solo classes (played by decent but not top tier players) that I couldn't even approach pre 2.0. for example, if my dcds are up, I can take down most snipers I encounter, and all commandos. this is all very synthetic, since I'm talking about 1v1 in a wz, but the dmg that reactive shield does plus its mitigation actually improved my outcome against snipers/gs. HTL also plays a huge part in this scenario.

 

however, ttk is actually up. the way I kill the aforementioned ranged classes is los, dotting and interrupting (when hunker is on cd). this makes me pretty horrible healer killer (the dot dmg is just too easy to heal through), but I have enough interrupts/stuns to annoy the hell out of a sorc/mando. ops usually just laugh in my face.

 

so it's weird. but it is playable in regs.

[Baedwulf]

Has anyone actually posted before-&-after numbers demonstrating the extent of the nerf? I still see Pyro-Powertechs melting faces within a few GCDs.

 

Like said above... PT's can still put up some big numbers and with some lucky crits can absolutely melt faces.

 

In my opinion it's just that the crits aren't happening enough to keep pyro PT's on par with other DPS classes. And AP... well that's an entirely different story.

[funkiestj]

Because different classes are different.

 

+1. If the argument is PTs are now underpowered then fix them being underpowered. DO NOT make all classes the same (or more similar).

 

Although if you are going to add an ability to PTs, I'd add another stun rather than an execute.

 

 

 

[funkiestj]

Only you found a way to make an argument about it... one that didn't make sense.

 

Hmmmm

[foxmob]

+1. If the argument is PTs are now underpowered then fix them being underpowered. DO NOT make all classes the same (or more similar).

 

Although if you are going to add an ability to PTs, I'd add another stun rather than an execute.

 

 

die, sirrah. die a thousand, cryo, seismic, grenaded deaths!

[Aelaias]

+1. If the argument is PTs are now underpowered then fix them being underpowered. DO NOT make all classes the same (or more similar).

 

Although if you are going to add an ability to PTs, I'd add another stun rather than an execute.

 

 

 

Right, having another stun would do wonders for their individuality.

[Baedwulf]

Hmmmm

 

HAHAHAHAHAAH!!! I've got like 7 days to get this banned.

[Capt_Beers]

Because they can also tank. They are not an exclusively damage class like gunslinger/sniper/marauder/sentinel.

 

I agree that the new vanguard dps is not very awesome. I've only used mine as a tank since 2.0. However, giving an execute move to a tank class seems a wee bit overpowered.

 

Dispatch (usable by all Knights) and Spinning Strike (usable by Shadows, a tank class, and not Sages)say hello

 

I agree that Vanguards should get an execute now post 2.0. As it stands now only the healing classes + Vanguards are without an execute. Healing classes not getting one I can understand but the other 2 tanks have one and all the other DPS specs have one. Make it a 4m ability with an animation similar to Gut and call it a day. Or give them back some damage.

 

Saw this comment on the ability page for Dispatch thought it was kind of funny with the new changes.

 

thats because hammer of wrath also activated only when the target had 20% health left. and given that jedi are effectively space paladins(it should be obvious who the space dk's are), the comparison is inevitable. no need to worry though, bioware probably wont make a 'wings'(avenging wrath) kind of ability to allow it to be used without the 20% requirement like the rets in wow currently.

[Aelaias]

Can't begrudge vigilance their execute proc. They lost their big crit chance bonus to execute and their burst is not much better off. Not to speak of their poor mobility.

[Capt_Beers]

Can't begrudge vigilance their execute proc. They lost their big crit chance bonus to execute and their burst is not much better off. Not to speak of their poor mobility.

 

I don't mind the proc at all. I just think it's kind of funny how he said that BW probably won't make it usable whenever you want.

[Luco-Zade]

I've noticed something about VG/PT DPS post nerf, it varies wildly in a manner that is NOT congruous with things like skill point distribution, gear, player skill, opponent skill.

 

For instance, reading these posts, you guys are running 3k IP,7k HIB and 3k SG as mentioned above.

 

I have full Partisan, bar Conq implants+earpiece and recently acquired chest with blue reflex aug 28 or whatever it is.

 

My same skills are like this.

 

2k IP, HiB never more than 6k once-in-a-hundred-wz's, usually wont break 5k and SG doesnt break 2k.

 

These numbers have remained the same no matter the difference in gear i try nor the way i move my SP about, this includes not skilling burnout and above in favour of IP damage skill and elemental damage attacks.

 

Yet, i've seen VG's in 1st tier pvp do more damage than me, ive seen VG's in 2nd tier do more damage than me and ive seen VG's in 55 pvp on Red Eclipse, generally do between 5-700k in non Voidstars, i struggle to break 400k, and on a good voidstar i have not broken 500k since nerf.

 

I've found myself using the old routine of IP - HIB - IP - IP - HIB, and i do more damage due to the law of averages.

 

Since nerf the class for me has not felt right, feels as though some stats are frozen and nothing i do changes them, feels like my VG is stuck in old gear and the stats dont update with whatever i equip.

 

It's downright weird. I have asked around a few places incase i arent the only one experiencing this, but havent found anyone so far.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Luco-Zade

[Aelaias]

They often spread dots around to buff up their numbers. The truth of the matter is your damage numbers will be better if the other players don't contribute adequately and vice versa. The numbers don't tell the whole story because they depend on many things including dotting people right and left which is very easy now, whether you hve a healer, whether they have a healer, etc etc.

[BambulaGTS]

Why PT have not had execute from game start.

 

General rule for having/not having execute in SWTOR:

 

If class have base active healing abilities = no execute. Simple rule - if you can't heal, you have to "dps race" your opponent, execute is instrument for that. If you can heal - you have another strategy in addition - "outlast", you need not execute.

 

Who are under rule - sorc, operative, merc.

 

Then PT is exception. The reason behind PT, in pyro, it has talent + 30 % dot damage in execute range. Probably it is what devs planned instead PT execute. Some clever different thing as they thought.

 

Why it has not got in 2.0? They nerfed crit and 1 of the dots. They probably should either raise damage in that talent to like 45 % or may be really introduce execute.

 

Dunno, probably the logic was - there will be 3rd dot from detonator, and it will raise overal damage from that talent since there should be 3 dot's running on target instead of 2.

Edited May 18, 2013 by BambulaGTS

[Nezyrworks]

I've noticed something about VG/PT DPS post nerf, it varies wildly in a manner that is NOT congruous with things like skill point distribution, gear, player skill, opponent skill.

 

For instance, reading these posts, you guys are running 3k IP,7k HIB and 3k SG as mentioned above.

 

I have full Partisan, bar Conq implants+earpiece and recently acquired chest with blue reflex aug 28 or whatever it is.

 

My same skills are like this.

 

2k IP, HiB never more than 6k once-in-a-hundred-wz's, usually wont break 5k and SG doesnt break 2k.

.

 

It is probably because you are running high AIM low POWER mods, high Endurance enhancements and crit rating, which is obsolete above 150.

 

How much ranged bonus damage do you have?

[Nezyrworks]

Dunno, probably the logic was - there will be 3rd dot from detonator, and it will raise overal damage from that talent since there should be 3 dot's running on target instead of 2.

 

Yeah, except full pyro just blows hard. There is no way it can compete with both AP/Tactic+Pyro/Assault hybrid (8/22/16), nor can it compete with True beast hybrid (11/10/25 or 11/8/27).

 

TD/AP is by itself just a waste of huge amount of points. TD/AP was already obsolete pre 2.0, but now its even worse.

[ceelaniri]

Why PT have not had execute from game start.

 

General rule for having/not having execute in SWTOR:

 

If class have base active healing abilities = no execute. Simple rule - if you can't heal, you have to "dps race" your opponent, execute is instrument for that. If you can heal - you have another strategy in addition - "outlast", you need not execute.

 

Who are under rule - sorc, operative, merc.

 

Then PT is exception. The reason behind PT, in pyro, it has talent + 30 % dot damage in execute range. Probably it is what devs planned instead PT execute. Some clever different thing as they thought.

 

Why it has not got in 2.0? They nerfed crit and 1 of the dots. They probably should either raise damage in that talent to like 45 % or may be really introduce execute.

 

Dunno, probably the logic was - there will be 3rd dot from detonator, and it will raise overal damage from that talent since there should be 3 dot's running on target instead of 2.

 

This talk of Burnout being an execute move made me think of Sniper/Gunslinger.

 

Lethality/Dirty Fighting specs from Sniper/Gunslinger benefit from a similar talent (Cold Blooded/Devouring Microbes: 15% DOT increase but can stack with their ultimate Weakening Blast/Hemorraging Blast increase total DOT increase to 45% to target under 30% HP) on top of their "real" execute move Quickdraw/Takedown.

Edited May 18, 2013 by ceelaniri

[Luco-Zade]

It is probably because you are running high AIM low POWER mods, high Endurance enhancements and crit rating, which is obsolete above 150.

 

How much ranged bonus damage do you have?

 

Went for the high Aim high Power mods and power enhancements over 25% crit rating, namely;

 

 

ADV Agile Enhancement 27

ADV Adept Enhancement 27

 

Bonus Tech 1042

Bonus ranged 599

[TrigPt]

Pre 2.0 The only AC that was useless for top end PVP was Commando, the damage was weak and if you were taking a healer both Sage and Scoundrel were better.

 

Post 2.0 The only AC that is useless for top end PVP is Vanguard, the burst damage is weak and if you're taking a tank both Guardians and Shadows are better.

 

For ranked PVP most ACs have at least 1 viable spec, some 2, some 3 if you count hybrids the Vanguard had 1 and now has 0.

 

Basically troopers have been screwed twice now Commandos pre 2.0 and now Vanguards post 2.0.

 

To rub salt in they even bugged one of our abilities (30% surge for IP) and our snare in the assualt tree only refreshes twice ( a known bug for months) so is effectivesly a 3sec 30% ( nerfed from 50%) snare.

[BambulaGTS]

This talk of Burnout being an execute move made me think of Sniper/Gunslinger.

 

Lethality/Dirty Fighting specs from Sniper/Gunslinger benefit from a similar talent (Cold Blooded/Devouring Microbes: 15% DOT increase but can stack with their ultimate Weakening Blast/Hemorraging Blast increase total DOT increase to 45% to target under 30% HP) on top of their "real" execute move Quickdraw/Takedown.

 

1. It is 15 % not 30 %.

2. Lethality does not have + 30 % surge to all dots (see extra surge for CGC, missile and detonator from firebug).

 

Weakening blast's main role is to increase Cull damage, not making lethality dots some beast.

 

Just different classes, different designs.

[-Holmes]

not even remotely true. how many classes had to be NERFED before PT/VG became "the class"?

 

let me count:

operatives (concealment)

commandos (gunnery)

sorcs (lightining)

sentinels (watchman)

 

how many classes got buffed ABOVE PT/VG while the latter were constantly nerfed (proc rates twice and range once)? BEFORE 2.0

sentinels (focus)

juggs (rage)

 

after 2.0?

sorcs (lightning)

assassins (deception)

commando (gunnery)

 

my point? PT/VG dps only ever "stood out" after other dps specs were nerfed hard, and even then, they were on par with combat sentinels except better range for weaker utility. and the real problem now is that they are crappy burst AND crappy dot (range is too short). so their only redeeming value is ranged taunts, which their tank spec can do better, but that's still the worst possible tank spec in the game. lol

Bullshiz.

Powertechs make for the best ball carriers. Leap, pull, aoe stun and 6 seconds root immunity.

On top of that our aoe taunts are ranged(unlike juggs), and we wear heavy armor(unlike shadows).

We have self heals to an extent, and can interrupt caps from a distance.

When mezzed on the node, Shoulder Cannon works while CCed, so /gg to that shadow feeling lucky and doing a solo stun cap.

[Aelaias]

1. It is 15 % not 30 %.

2. Lethality does not have + 30 % surge to all dots (see extra surge for CGC, missile and detonator from firebug).

 

Weakening blast's main role is to increase Cull damage, not making lethality dots some beast.

 

Just different classes, different designs.

 

It's so different that it has a dot booster like other dot classes AND a ranged execute like some melee. So far people's idea of another class' unique gameplay seems to revolve around having it be less effective than theirs. I have come to think that the class doesn't NEED an execute.... as a separate attack. It would be enough to buff HIB damage by 15-20% and surge by an additional 30% (assuming assault trooper is broken only for IP) against people at or below 30% health.

[Viper-Mist]

No the class does not need an execute.

It does however need to bought in line with every other class, pyro needs buffing and AP needs a total rework

Bioware balanced it for PVE and don't care about PVP. In PVP burst in combination with good defensive cooldowns and escapes is everything and the PT now is just plain inferior to other dps class.

Its the merc pre 2.0 all over again.

 

you're wrong here. Assault VG IS a midrange class. mid range doesn't have anything to do with the fact that they have certain 30m and 4m attacks. it has everything to do with the range from which they must be, consistently, to execute their primary rotation. and for VG, that's 10m or less. for a mara, that's 4m or less. for a sniper, that's 35m or less. this isn't rocket science. there are clearly 3 degrees of range in the game.

 

LOL PT being medium range, total FAIL POST here

 

PT DPS to be even remotely near that of a SIN / MARA / JUGG / OP , must be within 4m to use rocket punch.

PT IS MELEE 4M.

 

Bullshiz.

Powertechs make for the best ball carriers. Leap, pull, aoe stun and 6 seconds root immunity.

On top of that our aoe taunts are ranged(unlike juggs), and we wear heavy armor(unlike shadows).

We have self heals to an extent, and can interrupt caps from a distance.

When mezzed on the node, Shoulder Cannon works while CCed, so /gg to that shadow feeling lucky and doing a solo stun cap.

 

He is talking about dps spec not tank spec, tank spec is fine and the only viable tree in rateds. Nobody is aurging tank spec sucks. No dps PT is going to be solo guarding a node, shoulder cannon is a gimmick. Our self heal sucks compared to other class's abiiltys, against anyone good you will burst killed by the time you pop it.

 

The class is out performed at melee by SIN / MARA / JUGG / OP

 

There is a reason no decent team brings DPS PT's into rated wzs anymore, Why bother when just about every other class can do everything better.

 

I can guarantee that 100% of these posters claiming that PT is fine in relation to other classes either.

 

1) Dont have a 55 PT and also a 55 of another dps class like JUG \ SIN \ MARA . Any decent player can tell you the massive difference having played both, in killing potential and utility / dc's . The PT loses on all counts.

 

2) Farm bads in regs all day and think that their high numbers mean the class is fine.

 

3) Get farmed by PT's in regs and think the class is OP

 

3) Played a PT in lowbies and think broken lol bolster matches mean anything.

 

4) Are just hating because they mad

FACT:

Everything you want to do on a DPS PT can be done better on every other class in the game.

The class has is been nerfed into the ground and is now the new Mercenary of 2.0. A Gimped class that is not welcome in rateds.

[foxmob]

LOL PT being medium range, total FAIL POST here

 

PT DPS to be even remotely near that of a SIN / MARA / JUGG / OP , must be within 4m to use rocket punch.

PT IS MELEE 4M.

 

rocket punch has a cd you moron. you don't need to stay in 4m. you need to be 4m for an INSTANT. you're the fail dude. good job failing. learn to read.

Edited May 19, 2013 by foxmob

[-Holmes]

He is talking about dps spec not tank spec, tank spec is fine and the only viable tree in rateds. Nobody is aurging tank spec sucks. No dps PT is going to be solo guarding a node, shoulder cannon is a gimmick. Our self heal sucks compared to other class's abiiltys, against anyone good you will burst killed by the time you pop it.

 

The class is out performed at melee by SIN / MARA / JUGG / OP

 

There is a reason no decent team brings DPS PT's into rated wzs anymore, Why bother when just about every other class can do everything better.

 

I can guarantee that 100% of these posters claiming that PT is fine in relation to other classes either.

 

1) Dont have a 55 PT and also a 55 of another dps class like JUG \ SIN \ MARA . Any decent player can tell you the massive difference having played both, in killing potential and utility / dc's . The PT loses on all counts.

 

2) Farm bads in regs all day and think that their high numbers mean the class is fine.

 

3) Get farmed by PT's in regs and think the class is OP

 

3) Played a PT in lowbies and think broken lol bolster matches mean anything.

 

4) Are just hating because they mad

FACT:

Everything you want to do on a DPS PT can be done better on every other class in the game.

The class has is been nerfed into the ground and is now the new Mercenary of 2.0. A Gimped class that is not welcome in rateds.

 

I beg to differ. Here's his original post.

and the real problem now is that they are crappy burst AND crappy dot (range is too short). so their only redeeming value is ranged taunts, which their tank spec can do better, but that's still the worst possible tank spec in the game. lol

 

I agree that the DPS spec is a tad underpowered, so no issues, but when people start saying that PTs are the worst class out of all, then I jump in saying that tank spec is plain awesome. I have had a lot more fun in pt tank spec than in any of the other tank trees.

[ceelaniri]

1. It is 15 % not 30 %.

2. Lethality does not have + 30 % surge to all dots (see extra surge for CGC, missile and detonator from firebug).

 

Weakening blast's main role is to increase Cull damage, not making lethality dots some beast.

 

Just different classes, different designs.

 

1. No idea what you are talking about...

 

Weakening Blast increases the dmg of the next 10 bleed effects by 30% (whatever you use it for is your choice).

 

Cold Blooded increases the dmg of the bleed effect by 15% (3 points talent) if the target's HP is under 30%. Hence bleed effect can be increase by 45% if the target's HP is under 30%.

 

Burnout increases the dmg of the dot effect by 30% if the target HP is under 30%. Pretty similar yet, Sniper/Gunslinger have an execute move on top of that. In short, i m just pointing that the whole argument about Burnout being the execute of the PT/VG isnt really that valid. From your previous posts, you seem to concur.

 

2. I never wrote about surge or anything like that.