Do you remember City of Heroes?

[Andryah]

So basically everyone should just learn the Korean way of doing things and capitulate on all matters to their approach? It certainly makes sense if you're trying to operate in the Korean market, but it eventually leads to failure and ill will if you insist that a product that is primarily aimed at the Western market and staffed by Western employees do everything in the Korean manner. Not that NCsoft couldn't do so, but taking that insular and xenophobic approach to games that were aqcquired for the purpose of breaking into Western markets was rather shortsighted. Consider that the near absence of an advertising budget and general lack of support for the game and studio coincided with a time where superheroes were exploding in international popularity. It's not unlikely that City of Heroes could've been something of a hit if there had been interest in promoting it.

 

To my way of thinking it would've been far smarter of NCsoft to make some effort to understand how Western culture and businesses operate if they were really interested in getting a stronger foothold. Still, when you're the one in charge and rarely have to interact directly with outsiders it is easy to overlook that sort of thing. More's the pity.

 

Conduct some actual business negotiations with Korean companies.. and then get back to me on this. It would open your eyes.

 

With respect...... you have no clue here.

 

And I'm not saying what NCsoft did was good for customers in any way. It wasn't, IMO. Thing is.. Paragon made it about business terms.. NCsoft disagreed, Paragon pushed it, NCsoft shut them down (literally). Why? to make an example of them to the other western studios they own and operate... it's that simple really. If you want to pick a fight with a Korean company, and dictate business terms.. you better have the stronger negotiating position or you will get hosed.

 

And while we Americans can get all righteous about how business for westerners should be done.. I'd like to point out that a handful of Korean companies (LG, Samsung, Hyundai, Kia, and a few others) are dominating their competitors in business on many products and doing so in the western markets. So really, it's hard to call them flawed business negotiators when they are being incredibly successful in the marketplace.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

I'm sorry but all this talk of "face issue", "teach them a lesson" as well as some of the things you put in later posts only makes NCSoft look even worse, since it makes them look petty.

 

They would point out to you.. at the negotiations table... that you are being petty for not respecting "face" in business negotiations. They also would get up and walk out of the conference room and that would be the end of it. You do not get a second chance either.

 

In productive business negotiations with Asian business people, particularly the Koreans, either have a leverage position on them so high they will choke down "face" OR respect "face" in the negotiations. It's rare to have a position so strong that you can safely ignore "face" and disrespect them and come out of it intact.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Wraiven]

They would point out to you.. at the negotiations table... that you are being petty for not respecting "face" in business negotiations. They also would get up and walk out of the conference room and that would be the end of it. You do not get a second chance either.

 

In productive business negotiations with Asian business people, particularly the Koreans, either have a leverage position on them so high they will choke down "face" OR respect "face" in the negotiations. It's rare to have a position so strong that you can safely ignore "face" and disrespect them and come out of it intact.

 

Sounds like to me we (Americans) are fools for dealing with them in the first place.

[AndasKastor]

Sounds like to me we (Americans) are fools for dealing with them in the first place.

 

South Korea is one of our bigger export markets (US Company here). We respect them and they respect us.

 

If you are trying to get something from another culture it just makes business sense that you would learn the necessities of dealing with that culture.

[OwenBrooks]

I still have the "City of Heroes" client installed on my computer is that bad .......

[Kiyoko-]

Out of curiousity, what exactly is this "face issue" you refer and that I've never heard any other reference to despite paying close attention to any and all news related to the shutdown. Without some kind of reference, citation, or other documentation or at bare minimum further explanation, I'll just safely assume you're talking out of your @#$. Regardless, this being a free country, feel free to blame whoever you want, but your argument, even if completely true, will not change my opinion about NCSoft or where I feel the blame lies in this matter. Why? Simple.

 

I'm american.

 

When I do business with a company offering it's product or service in MY country, under MY laws, and I'm giving them MY money (dollars btw, not whatever the currrency is in Idon'tgiveacrapwhattheyspendthereland), I will feel free to judge their behavoir as a business based upon the norms and culture of MY homeland, not theirs. Why? They're doing business with me. Here. NOT THERE. So there doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned. Couldn't give a flying flip about it. And by the standards and customs of where I come from, what they did was the height of ******tery and eff u customer orientation. WHEN A KOREAN BUSINESS WANTS TO DO BUSINESS IN AMERICA, THEY NEED TO LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH CUSTOMERS AND CONDUCT BUSINESS ACCORDING TO AMERICAN CUSTOMS, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Paragon Studios has nothing to do with this. Nothing whatsoever. I don't care what kind of "face issue" you claim they created for NCSoft, in the US WHERE THEY WERE DOING BUSINESS, their response amounted to a three year old throwing a temper tantrum over a perceived insult, taking their ball and going home. That kind of behavior as a business earns you a quick trip to my "burn in hell while waiting all eternity for another dime of my money or even a nice word about your company" category. Period. No excuses. No blaming other parties. Do not pass go, have an extra kick in the crotch from me.

 

As always YMMV. I just wanted to set the record straight as to who is really at fault here and why. Sorry if I pissed all over your opinion, but on this we definately disagree.

 

Who is throwing the temper tantrum?

This post was a temper tantrum. An ugly, jingoistic, crude, embarrassing tantrum.

As an American, I cringed from "I'm american" (sic) on.

Computer games aren't worth wanting people to "burn in hell" over.

[Tsillah]

Why did Bioware have to get involved with EA, EA ruin games

 

Welcome to the real world. Bioware did it themselves. This is what happens when you put your company on the stock market...you are for sale and EA was the one who had the money to buy them. Anyone who puts their company on the stock market gives away ownership. Why do they do it? Money. Plain and simple. I know it's commonplace these days but in the end when you put your company on the stock market you sell out. You give away your independence for the almighty dollar or euro.

[Runeshard]

They would point out to you.. at the negotiations table... that you are being petty for not respecting "face" in business negotiations. They also would get up and walk out of the conference room and that would be the end of it. You do not get a second chance either.

 

In productive business negotiations with Asian business people, particularly the Koreans, either have a leverage position on them so high they will choke down "face" OR respect "face" in the negotiations. It's rare to have a position so strong that you can safely ignore "face" and disrespect them and come out of it intact.

In this case that tactic, of teaching lessons etc, didn't work out well for them, alienating customers, current and potential, is not good business strategy, drawing the kind of criticism they've gotten from the industry isn't good business strategy and when they've even gotten criticism in their home country it doesn't seem like they made the right choice.

 

Perhaps I'm unclear on the details but to the best of my knowledge NCSoft pretty much blind sided everyone with the shut down of City of Heroes, just like that an anticipated issue (update) was stopped, people were out of a job and so on. How is that good business strategy and how did they not create this bad situation themselves? Perhaps Paragon could have handled it better, I'm not sure about the details there but it seems to me that NCSoft made the situation almost impossible to start with since the moment they acted like this they made a “face issue” practically unavoidable and further exacerbated the situation by making it clear how little they cared for the customers in the west.

 

If there is something I've missed then please inform me and I'll take a look at it. But for now I think that NCSoft's actions were bad not only in regards to how they treated and how their actions affected gamers but it was also pretty poor in regards to how they treated their employees and the shut down in general. Btw are the other examples of this kind of Korean business? I can't help but view this as a very bad way of doing this if not applied correctly, something I think NCSoft failed at in this matter.

[Runeshard]

 

City of Titans kickstarter, already a massive push to bring it back. /salute

 

The support seems promising, I have no doubt that they'll reach their intended goal. I'd love to see a game like City of Heroes again, nothing has really managed to replace it on the pedestal of "great superhero game."

[DmdShiva]

Cool. Pretty funny that they need $320,000 to fund it. Wonder what the extra $199,680,000 to fund TOR was spent on.

 

The kickstarter is to buy the licenses for the development tools; City of Titans is a volunteer project, not a commercial enterprise.

[Runeshard]

The kickstarter is to buy the licenses for the development tools; City of Titans is a volunteer project, not a commercial enterprise.

 

Agreed. There really is no comparing the two, at the very least in terms of expediture.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Runeshard

[Drake_Hound]

Conduct some actual business negotiations with Korean companies.. and then get back to me on this. It would open your eyes.

 

With respect...... you have no clue here.

 

And I'm not saying what NCsoft did was good for customers in any way. It wasn't, IMO. Thing is.. Paragon made it about business terms.. NCsoft disagreed, Paragon pushed it, NCsoft shut them down (literally). Why? to make an example of them to the other western studios they own and operate... it's that simple really. If you want to pick a fight with a Korean company, and dictate business terms.. you better have the stronger negotiating position or you will get hosed.

 

And while we Americans can get all righteous about how business for westerners should be done.. I'd like to point out that a handful of Korean companies (LG, Samsung, Hyundai, Kia, and a few others) are dominating their competitors in business on many products and doing so in the western markets. So really, it's hard to call them flawed business negotiators when they are being incredibly successful in the marketplace.

 

Exactly the example that developers shouldn't even trust NCSOFT , exactly the example that corporate industry is corrupt like hell , they are just the money loaner ..without the ability to create .

 

When you find things like these logical , then you shouldn't find that you are nowhere near human anymore .

Just a cogwheel in a machine ! You might think you are a important cogwheel , but so does every other cog out there .

 

That people even play crap from NCSOFT says enough about there own stupidity !

More then there brains or even caring for society .

 

Business is business ,money is money , but don't try to rationalise that the business is based on emotions .

When actually it just some numbers in a stupid game .

Face has nothing to do with this issue , simply plain no business sense or concept of future prospect .

[LtBombshell]

I have had no stability issues/game-breaking bugs whatsoever.

[WSRB]

I honestly think that the explanation of what happened between NCSoft and Paragon Studios is a lot simpler and more reasonable than the management of Paragon Studios suddenly forgetting how to deal with the people who'd been their employers for nearly ten years; and that also doesn't make NC look they'd suddenly taken up the Kim Jong-il school of insane non-negotiation tactics.

 

(I used spoiler tags to help break up the wall of text. Your eyes will thank me.)

 

 

MMORPG.com article siting an anonymous source within NCSoft that creates a picture of the situation at Paragon Studios and NCSoft: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/3/feature/7015/City-of-Heroes-Profitable-or-Not.html

 

 

I don't necessarily trust any exact figures from the MMORPG.com article because they're from an anonymous source (ie. the type that usually doesn't have access to exact figures), but it does help paint a fuller picture of the situation. And this is what that situation looked like:

 

- NCSoft was uncomfortable with City of Heroes in their line up despite its profitability; if you take a look at their line up with CoH in it and ask which one of these does not belong, CoH is the answer. If anything in the whole mess is about "face" it's this: NCSoft has a definite image in terms of their line up, and that is that they make epic fantasy games (even Wildstar appears to be more "sword and sorcery and spaceships" than actual sci-fi), and CoH did not fall into that category.

 

- Paragon Studios was not flush with cash: for whatever reason, whatever money they were making with CoH was not enough to cover operating costs of that studio (development on other properties being the most likely reason).

 

- Combine the two issues above with a large expenditure on getting Guild Wars 2 to market and you can see why NCSoft wanted to get rid CoH and Paragon: to trim the fat in a year where the bottom line wasn't going to look great and present a unified image of what an NCSoft game should be.

 

 

 

Now for some facts about what happened from someone who was there in the form of a Matt Miller interview (lead developer at Paragon Studios) from April of this year: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/189896/

 

 

The very first page of that interview shoots down the notion that the shutdown came out of nowhere. Miller explicitly states that months before any of this became public knowledge they'd been told that things didn't look good for the studio and that they should prepare for both the studio an game to be shut down by the end of the year. Instead of preparing a send off for the game, as they'd been told to do by NCSoft, choose to operate business as usual, expecting at first a third party buyout and then later a management buyout; they did not act as if the shutdown was a very real probability despite the fact they had been told that it was.

 

Right there is all you have to see to realize that this whole "NCSoft is evil" thing is complete crap, because the management at Paragon was well aware of what was going on, and they were the ones who choose not to have farewell content patch in place in case NC did the thing that they were quite committed to doing: getting rid of Paragon and CoH, one way or another. Clearly NC wasn't all about sunshine, ice cream and lollipops for the CoH players: but the fact is that they were the ones who wanted plans in place for their customers, and it was Paragon who choose not to do that.

 

Now for those who would say "but they wouldn't even let them release the last issue they were working on for the loyal fans", I say this: Paragon wanted to release a buggy (and possibly unstable) client patch onto a game that was only going to have skeleton crew maintenance for its last three months on an already upset fan base. NCSoft said no because they'd rather that their customers at least have a stable mostly bug free experience for the final months. How evil of them to want to provide a smooth gaming experience to their customers.

 

 

 

So the simple explanation of what most likely happened:

 

 

NCSoft wanted a sum that the less than affluent Paragon probably couldn't afford within whatever timeline NC specified. Most likely once they'd reached NC's internal deadline for a sale and it was clear that Paragon couldn't meet their deadlines, NC called it and sent CoH into the sunset. Any lack of dignity in what came next was the result of Paragon's inaction when they'd been warned months in advance, not from NC having some wish to dump on loyal customers.

 

 

 

That's business. Was it about the bottom line? Yes, there was red on the ledger and NC choose to get rid of it, which they were well within their rights to do. And it's not like there was one shot at saving the game and then that was it: NC had already been trying sell off CoH to other companies far more able to afford taking over CoH than Paragon was. NC more than likely entertained Paragon management more out of respect for their hard work over the years than because of any real belief than poor Paragon was actually able to afford the buyout.

 

Let's not kid ourselves, NCsoft is a corporation that made a decision based on a corporate image and the bottom line. But the blind arrogance of management at Paragon is why low level employees and players were not properly prepared for the shut down.

[Drake_Hound]

corporate spinsel at it best , if lower staffs and management were prepared ..

Then a lot of work was saved up , and development or the phoenix project wouldn't take so long .

 

NCSOFT did this before and will keep doing this again and again .

Why cause spinsels people don't really care or have morals .

 

clients are just numbers , so blaim EA atleast we know where SWTOR stands , profit it stays open .

No profit it gets closed , nothing with so called "rumors" or "face"

 

Plain harsh corporate facts and data .

Trim the fat definetly happening everywhere in real life !

Nothing new nothing to get worried or excited about .

Too bad for the people , but as customers you do have right , and I am excercisng my right to not support NCSOFT!!

[Runeshard]

 

City of Titans kickstarter, already a massive push to bring it back. /salute

 

And it's funded... with 27 days still to go. Not bad, not bad at all.

[Andryah]

Let's not kid ourselves, NCsoft is a corporation that made a decision based on a corporate image and the bottom line. But the blind arrogance of management at Paragon is why low level employees and players were not properly prepared for the shut down.

 

/Agree.. with the specific note that "corporate image" = face to a Korean company (any Asian company actually).

 

The linked articles unfortunately are so scattered in what they present, that they fail to focus on the core issue. even though one of them nailed it right here:

 

"Brian Clayton tried to orchestrate a management buyout of Paragon starting over a year ago because it became progressively more difficult to deal with NCSoft"

 

Translation: Clayton and team wanted to go in one direction and NCsoft wanted to go in another direction. Clayton pushed it to the breaking point (probably without realizing the danger) and NCsoft simply folded the discussions and shuttered the studio and the game.

 

TL;DR Paragon became more trouble then they were worth... and not in $$ as it's pretty clear from the NCsoft financials that the studio was turning an operations profit (despite the legal deflection in the NCsoft press comments).

 

Wildstar fans best hope that Carbine Studios management team observed and learned from the Paragon debacle.

 

Asian companies by the way... not real big on divisions buying out and going their own way. When it is allowed.. it's always at a high premium price. Why? They don't let competition loose into the market if they can avoid it. It has to be so rich that it would be bad business not to. And in this case there is no way Paragon management could meet the hurdle. What they should have done is simply stayed a captive studio and done their job. CoH would still be open as would Paragon studios.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Andryah

[CosmicKat]

Conduct some actual business negotiations with Korean companies.. and then get back to me on this. It would open your eyes.

 

With respect...... you have no clue here.

 

And I'm not saying what NCsoft did was good for customers in any way. It wasn't, IMO. Thing is.. Paragon made it about business terms.. NCsoft disagreed, Paragon pushed it, NCsoft shut them down (literally). Why? to make an example of them to the other western studios they own and operate... it's that simple really. If you want to pick a fight with a Korean company, and dictate business terms.. you better have the stronger negotiating position or you will get hosed.

 

And while we Americans can get all righteous about how business for westerners should be done.. I'd like to point out that a handful of Korean companies (LG, Samsung, Hyundai, Kia, and a few others) are dominating their competitors in business on many products and doing so in the western markets. So really, it's hard to call them flawed business negotiators when they are being incredibly successful in the marketplace.

 

Maybe there's a grain of truth in your opinion, but to assume that companies as successful as LG, Hyundai, Samsung, et al are as ridiculously tied to what is essentially local custom, as you claim, is laughable.

 

Asian companies have been historically successful for one reason... they look at the long term, big picture instead of the short term "growth" that Western companies have come to fixate exclusively on. In other words, they learned from us to beat us at our own game.

[Andryah]

Maybe there's a grain of truth in your opinion, but to assume that companies as successful as LG, Hyundai, Samsung, et al are as ridiculously tied to what is essentially local custom, as you claim, is laughable.

 

Negotiate with one, then you can laugh.... but.. you won't be laughing.

 

Until then... you are grossly misinformed. The fact that you label the behavior as "custom" demonstrates to me that you do not really understand.

[CosmicKat]

Negotiate with one, then you can laugh.... but.. you won't be laughing.

 

Until then... you are grossly misinformed. The fact that you label the behavior as "custom" demonstrates to me that you do not really understand.

 

Gee, or maybe you just met a jerk and/or rubbed someone the wrong way? Can't imagine that happening....

[Drake_Hound]

Ncsoft isn't the typical asian corporation , even typical korean .

We all know they lost tons of lawsuits in the US or the West , when some of them they should have won .

 

That Asia has become aggressive in dealing with the west , is cause most of them grew up in the west .

So they know the difference of west and east .

 

While west only have a stereo type view of the world , a one sided view .

When you negogiate from one sided perspectief instead of a real perspectief !

That they prefer Asia over the Western mentality , by choice not by force .

You already not understanding them .

All the rest is hindsight and stereo typing .

[Andryah]

Gee, or maybe you just met a jerk and/or rubbed someone the wrong way? Can't imagine that happening....

 

Nope. Nice try though.

 

I spent 2 years on assignment in APAC negotiating both product and consulting services contracts with a range of Korean companies in the tech industry.

 

They are actually pretty consistent in their approach and demands to be honest. The Koreans are tougher then the Japanese actually in that they want to constantly move the terms of negotiation as they go... probing to see how far you will bend. Once they have the core terms established between parties.. that's where all the "add-ons" and "of course this includes" tap dance begins.

[Andryah]

Ncsoft isn't the typical asian corporation , even typical korean .

We all know they lost tons of lawsuits in the US or the West , when some of them they should have won .

 

That Asia has become aggressive in dealing with the west , is cause most of them grew up in the west .

So they know the difference of west and east .

 

While west only have a stereo type view of the world , a one sided view .

When you negogiate from one sided perspectief instead of a real perspectief !

That they prefer Asia over the Western mentality , by choice not by force .

You already not understanding them .

All the rest is hindsight and stereo typing .

 

Nonsense.

 

NCsoft is T.J. Kim's baby. T.J Kim is the prototypical Korean businessman. He is very much typical in both style and background..... educated, charismatic, arrogant, rose up in the ranks at Hyundai before venturing out on his own. He is a visionary... but he is also a successful Korean businessman, who built NCsoft in Korea, for the Korean market before branching out into other regions.

[Drake_Hound]

Nonsense.

 

NCsoft is T.J. Kim's baby. T.J Kim is the prototypical Korean businessman. He is very much typical in both style and background..... educated, charismatic, arrogant, rose up in the ranks at Hyundai before venturing out on his own. He is a visionary... but he is also a successful Korean businessman, who built NCsoft in Korea, for the Korean market before branching out into other regions.

 

And so US is president Obama ? Microsoft is Bill Gates !

Get serious , sometimes you need to get off your high horse and look what makes a company work .

While yes he makes a lot of decisions that affects the growth or demise of a company .

He isn't solely responsible for the paragon debacle !

[CosmicKat]

Nope. Nice try though.

 

I spent 2 years on assignment in APAC negotiating both product and consulting services contracts with a range of Korean companies in the tech industry.

 

They are actually pretty consistent in their approach and demands to be honest. The Koreans are tougher then the Japanese actually in that they want to constantly move the terms of negotiation as they go... probing to see how far you will bend. Once they have the core terms established between parties.. that's where all the "add-ons" and "of course this includes" tap dance begins.

 

You just described negotiations with any of the humans of any race/religion/nationality that I've ever bought a car from. Or a house. Or a TV. Or anything else requiring a negotiated price or term.

 

Did you ever try to educate them? Offer any "Pro Tip's", "TL: DR's" or any of your other... quirks?

Edited October 7, 2013 by CosmicKat