My guild is leaving me, Again.. Insight for BIOware

[WarGame]

You seem like a good guy, I've been a pvp guild leader in other games so I'll give you some thoughts based on what you've said here. Hopefully some of it puts an idea or two in your head.

 

1.) Fun is the most important thing: A dude who is hilarious in guild chat/ vent is worth more to keeping a guild going than the state of a game.

 

2.) Cater to the players that carry your guild: More times than not, raids and warzones are pretty much carried by a minority percentage of the participants. Figure out who those people are and act accordingly. As an example if you have a healer that is pretty good and always has to play his healer, but has a dps alt, go out of your way to play your healer sometimes so they can play their alt. If you can keep your core around you'll be in good shape.

 

3.) Don't defend the company to your guild mates: Pvp progression isn't the priority in this game, not by a long shot. To date what has been provided is a year of preseason ranked warzones, multiple gear grinds, and two new maps (novare coast being very similar to civil war). All of the warzones are 8 on 8, so there is no variety either. So at this point saying oh bioware will fix x pvp problem, sounds like a mix of ineptitude and bs.

 

Instead of saying oh well they'll fix bolster stick with it guys, make fun of them for botching the concept for this long and expect it to remain botched. In essence, if your guild is largely bashing the company, go with it abit instead of saying everything will be alright. In addition to that if something is put in that is kind of awesome, don't be shy about that either.

 

4.) Have a solo chat with everyone in your guild on occasion: The more people feel involved the better things will be.

 

5.) Don't worry about your member number: As long as your core group is intact and you aren't gated from doing what you want in the game, you're good. If the guy that doesn't run anything and doesn't say anything in guild chat quits, who cares. I'd also much rather have/ be in a guild where 6 can take out 10 rather than we need everyone to take out one ops group.

 

6.) Guild alliances: Getting in with another guild that has similar interest as yours can be a good thing when you guys or short people or they are. In addition to that if one guild falls apart there is a natural merge.

 

7.) Don't be afraid to kick people. If you have a guy that needs on everything, is a drama queen, or is generally undesirable, get rid of them sooner than later.

 

Being a guild leader can suck, so best of luck to you

[branmakmuffin]

Exactly. It's not like they can design new Ops and FPs and Warzones every week. There is no possible way to keep up content with demand when you have people playing 10 hours a day, every day of the week. People burn through content way too fast to every keep up. Thus, end-game equals grinding the same stuff over and over...until the new stuff comes out...then a week later, you're grinding that over and over....and so on and so on.

As someone mentioned, if a game has scaled instances, that can help, because it increases the number of instances you can cycle through at end-game. Many end-gamers cried for joy when LotRO started making some instances scaled.

 

Of course eventually that will wear thin, too. And, as you say, there's no way any game company can keep pace with obsessive content burners. That's not even a playstyle that should be taken into consideration when designing content, simply because it is impossible to satisfy its adherents.

[Capote]

I think their plan is to keep PvP as casual as possible and accessible to everyone. You can notice that by the addition of the bolster, the possibility of ppl doing wzs with pve gear, the fotm classes and so on.

 

Also, the lack of x-server queues for RWZs/WZs makes the "PvP end-game" absent, since there is almost no competition (not to mention sometimes you stay hours on queue for a RWZ). The unbalance of classes (oh the smashers...) also contributes for that. Ofc that's just and solely my opinion.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Capote

[thizeh]

Played star wars since 1.3, boy what a fun ride..... built my guild up on POT5 from 4 members to 85 members. I realize that isn't to the standards of some of the bigger guilds, but it meant a lot to me. My guild likes to run ops and fps on a weekly basis but we mostly pvp. Bad feelings of the last patches have been realized, bolster is ok I tell them, I use the augment glitch occasionally to show them what it affects.... and yes that is fine. I convince them that conqueror gear is worth grinding... and they believe as do I. The augment glitch will be fixed on the 14th... No problems whatsoever... We run a few ranked warzones a week. we lose mostly but it is fun. ranked coms are good.... they ask me what is next.... where to go from here.... and I am not running a noob guild, a lot of these guys are legit, they top pug matches in regular warzones with myself.... a couple input that we should have arenas ... I don't disagree.

 

I actually agree that anything would be a shot in the arm for pvp. So what are we to do? I tell them to keep grinding ... but they grow jaded of that. I tell them its all gonna be ok, let us keep making premades and win a fair amount of our games. but what now? what do I tell them is after the grind? I have had a few members say they were gonna test out ESO, fine, hell I might too.... but it breaks my heart. I want my pvp guild to survive, and I want ops to stay fun as well. but what is the end game? the same warzones over and over are fine.... I enjoy the pvp in swtor, but whats the end game? why do they keep logging in? for preseason one? a lot don't like the high level of entry required for it,.... but we run it, we lose and I have fun. but they say something needs to change in pvp to keep them coming back. I don't have the answers for it..... I wish I did. I know ranked isn't what will keep them coming back though. what can I do?

 

class balance aside, which is still a step child of biowares metrics, what keeps your guild and friends playing? i dont want to lose my guild to LoL or WoW or ESO or w/e the next big mmo is. I am being as sincere as i know how here, there is absolutely no troll in my post. any positive comments are most welcome. Does bioware care anymore? thanks for listening.

 

I really enjoyed reading this, I hope everything goes well for you and your mates.

[Ariak-]

really appreciate it. This post was not a testament to how well, or how badly I was doing as a GM, but a cry out to bioware for end game content.

 

Three things my guildies would really like to see:

 

1) something beyond 8 v 8 play, whether that be 4v4 or 12 v 12, the sky is the limit.

 

2) some form of stat tracking: whether that be kills, wins or whatever, it would not hurt the community for bioware to track our pvp progress

 

3) some type of small reward rather than titles for valor rankings : small boosts to stats ..... additional skill points, etc.

 

 

This game really needs some of the above.

[Andryah]

Three things my guildies would really like to see:

 

1) something beyond 8 v 8 play, whether that be 4v4 or 12 v 12, the sky is the limit.

 

2) some form of stat tracking: whether that be kills, wins or whatever, it would not hurt the community for bioware to track our pvp progress

 

3) some type of small reward rather than titles for valor rankings : small boosts to stats ..... additional skill points, etc.

 

 

This game really needs some of the above.

 

I get that they would want this.. and these are popular requests in todays MMOs... but honestly.. this stuff is not quality PvP either IMO. If that makes being in a PvP guild goodness and fun... that is awfully two dimensional IMO.

 

Quality PvP in an MMO is dead for the most part because there are simply no consequences to losing. Rewards for winning, or afking into a win is common in MMOs today... but real MMO play where there are actual consequences to you, your team mates, your guild, and your faction is all but gone in MMOs.

 

It should mean something if you and your faction get your backsides handed to you. In EVE there are real consequences. In old MMOs like DAoC.. there were consequences to you, your guild, and the realm. There was a reason to fight beyond just rewards for self or epeen standing boards to admire.

 

Anyway.. good luck with your guild.. but it's not the game that makes a guild.. its' the people.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Andryah

[spectreclees]

What else is there besides running instances over and over? Guild Wars 2 tried to make the entire game end game and it didn't succeed well.

[CaptRavenous]

Here is a little story for you all:

 

~Two men wished to cross an ocean, never having been to the other side.

The first man took a sailboat, stocked up with good provisions, and decided to make a journey of it.

The second man wanted to get to the other side as fast as possible, so he took a sturdy, seaworthy speedboat.

They started their trip.

 

The second man reached the other side in a mere few days. he encountered some rough weather once, but not much else happened. Once he got to the other shore, he clambered out, eager to explore this new, unknown shore.

He found, much to his disappointment, that it was really no different than the place he had left to come here, with its own people's, its own problems, land, trees, water, mountains, etc. Nothing he had not seen before in similar fashion.

 

He decided to wait for his friend in the sailboat, to tell him the disappointing news.

 

Well, the first man finally arrived after a few weeks of sailing. His sails somewhat tattered, but in good repair. He looked a bit tired, but alert & cheerful. As he secured his boat, the second man came to him, and told him of what he found.

 

"There isn't much to see here. Its really no different than the place we left. We wasted this trip for nothing, you more so, since you took so long getting here." said the second man.

 

The first man replied, "This trip was not a waste at all, and I'll tell you why, my friend!"

He proceeded to tell the second man of the sights he saw; an unknown island, a castaway he helped, other ships and vessels he encountered, whales and fish he saw, storms he had been through, a wrecked vessel he had explored a little, etc. The story all sounded rather adventurous indeed!~

When you play an MMO, which of these two men are you?

 

When you rush to endgame, don't be surprised when it gets dull fast.

 

So many players want it to be about the destination, the "end-game content", never realising that what they really wanted was a journey, but they became distracted by ego or shiny baubles.

 

You want to run a successful guild, or find a successful guild?

 

Then make it about the journey, not the destination.

Edited May 10, 2013 by CaptRavenous

[Simplygarces]

I don't think many of you understand why people are quitting guilds and this game. It got nothing to do with the guild or the people in the guild. The major issue is content there is no content to play through and enjoy. ROTHC brought nothing new to the table a new planet and operation is all. The planet roughly even at a slow pace takes 2-4 days to complete. The new operation is nice but after those 2 things what else is there? Flashpoints? Ok but these are the same flashpoints I ran hundreds of times leveling my toons. Warzones ok I enjoy pvp I can run ranked but now lets see whats my rating XXXX ok lets compare to other Ranked Warzone toons......hrm no way to track my ranking so no point in running ranked. This is the issue the lack of content lack of features. I like Star Wars and really liked this game but at this point I don't know whats the point of my $15/mo sub since there is no news on whats on the horizon no communication from the devs. Whats the point of investing $180 a year in this game when you have no idea what your getting for you money. I like small QoL improvements but its pointless if all I'm doing is nothing but logging on to send my companions on crafting / gathering missions and doing my PvP dailies/weekly. Thats the issue with people leaving guilds because they quit the game nothing fun to do. It doesn't matter what any GM says to guildies if there is no content or information on upcoming content / bug fixes people will quit guilds and swtor as a whole.

[macumba]

No it's not...at least it didn't used to be until WoW ruined this genre with the theme park, greed-based game.

 

The point of MMORPG's used to be having some sort of lasting effect on the world you inhabited. Building either physical guild/player structures, or building renown for your guild and having a slew of rival and ally guilds to pit yourself against.

 

You used to have a purpose in MMORPG's. Now Guilds are just a group of people that band together to get individual possessions for its players. Once people don't need the items they're running on the treadmill for, they stop caring, unless they're the most die-hard fan boy. Interacting in instances and posting screenshots of your warzone stats on forums will never hold a candle to real guild versus guild, realm versus realm struggles.

 

Before WoW, PVP was the endgame of MMORPG's. Everquest built the coffin and WoW put all the nails in and sealed the genre up tight. The only reason to get the items before was so you could compete against rivals or valiantly represent your faction in combat. There's none of that now. We can't capture the worlds we quest on. We can't build anything to defend or attack. The guild system was at its most robust pre-launch, when we were fooled into thinking there was a meaning behind allies and enemies beyond playing on the same server.

 

If you want to put the meaning back in this genre, there is no other way to do it other than including at least a modicum of what people have come to blanket as "sandbox" features.

 

If you want people to care about your game, let them invest their time and energy into something other than playing dress up. It doesn't cut it for a lot of people. That's why MMO hopping has become so prevalent. That's why Eve's subscription numbers are growing even after all this time (though there's something to be said for multiple accounts there). Still, multiple accounts are another staple of "sandbox" games. The only multiple accounts people would care to make in this game are free to play ones for their kids. You can barely get them to pay one subscription fee for what they call "Massively Multiplayer" now.

 

Ground War in Call of Duty is more massive than this game if you're a PVPer.

 

started mmo'S with dark age of camelot. this post is oh so true.

 

 

Exactly. It's not like they can design new Ops and FPs and Warzones every week. There is no possible way to keep up content with demand when you have people playing 10 hours a day, every day of the week. People burn through content way too fast to every keep up. Thus, end-game equals grinding the same stuff over and over...until the new stuff comes out...then a week later, you're grinding that over and over....and so on and so on.

 

that's why people are asking about sandbox features and I never understood why an mmo needs to be exclusively themepark or sandbox design. the whole nothing to do @ max level is only a problem of wow and its clones.

[Prisoner]

Here's a question: why don't you make your own fun? I mean, look, it takes time to come out with quality endgame content, and Bioware clearly struggles with the pvp side of this game. So when things get a bit stale while you wait for the next Ilum event or gear or warzone to drop, it's time to get creative.

 

There are some examples of this on my server. One of the imperial pvp guilds has a friday afternoon dueling throwdown every week over in outlaw's den which is a very popular social event. One awesome Republic PVPer put on a 3 on 3 tournament that was really successful. And then there's the alt guild of made up of only male body type 4 troopers wearing the covert chest piece and red Malak pants that screws around in the under 30 bracket when they're not dancing on bars or near the pvp terminal.

 

Not that you have to do any of these things, but you get the gist. Start thinking a little bit outside the box and you'll be amazed at the things people come up with the amuse themselves.

[Khalvarik]

If you want a mmo that has no ending then you need to play a good sandbox. SWTOR is a themepark like WOW and GW2.

Sandbox games like EVE and The Repopulation(soon to be released) have a level(skill cap) but have a never ending endgame.

Bioware needs to look at other options for making a better endgame for the playerbase. To do this they are going to need to put some sandbox elements into this game (which will never happen).

[branmakmuffin]

Bioware needs to look at other options for making a better endgame for the playerbase. To do this they are going to need to put some sandbox elements into this game (which will never happen).

It will never happen because sandbox games are a small niche market.

 

I suppose they could add sandobxy elements to end-game, theoretically, but I don't think it would be worth the effort because people don't think "TOR" when they think "sandbox."

[Andryah]

I don't think many of you understand why people are quitting guilds and this game. It got nothing to do with the guild or the people in the guild. The major issue is content there is no content to play through and enjoy. ROTHC brought nothing new to the table a new planet and operation is all. The planet roughly even at a slow pace takes 2-4 days to complete. The new operation is nice but after those 2 things what else is there? Flashpoints? Ok but these are the same flashpoints I ran hundreds of times leveling my toons. Warzones ok I enjoy pvp I can run ranked but now lets see whats my rating XXXX ok lets compare to other Ranked Warzone toons......hrm no way to track my ranking so no point in running ranked. This is the issue the lack of content lack of features. I like Star Wars and really liked this game but at this point I don't know whats the point of my $15/mo sub since there is no news on whats on the horizon no communication from the devs. Whats the point of investing $180 a year in this game when you have no idea what your getting for you money. I like small QoL improvements but its pointless if all I'm doing is nothing but logging on to send my companions on crafting / gathering missions and doing my PvP dailies/weekly. Thats the issue with people leaving guilds because they quit the game nothing fun to do. It doesn't matter what any GM says to guildies if there is no content or information on upcoming content / bug fixes people will quit guilds and swtor as a whole.

 

The MMO player base has a large component that is transient in nature and simply follows content from MMO to MMO now days. It's nomadic...and NO MMO can hold it in place. Demanding that an MMO do so in the name of preserving guild stability is chasing a windmill Don Quixote style.

 

Stable guilds tend to recruit people that are normally outside of this nomadic core of the player base OR they work with the nomadic nature and cultivate a guild membership that plays and moves around in multiple MMOs. I have seen, and been a part of, guilds using both approaches. These guilds are successful in the face of player complaints such as yours precisely because they are working for their player base and tuning the guild and the membership to like minds/desires. Many guilds, particularly in newer MMOs are formed adhoc and with no real understanding of what they need to do to be a stable, long lasting, guild in the genre we call MMOs. It's Darwinian principles at work really. Those that adapt to the environment thrive.. those that do not, cease to thrive and cease to exist.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Andryah

[Liwilliams]

I understand the OP.

 

I am enjoying PvP. I play and have fun. I play to gear. I play to get better. But what happens after gear? What motivation is there? Few people do things for the sake of enjoyment.

 

Who completes every quest in the game, just to see every quest? I'm sure there are a few, but they are very, very rare.

 

So, it comes down to BioWare doing something to give us more motivation to play. It's something all PvPers want, and while I understand that we are the minority, when operations get boring and new content hasn't been released, we're the ones that are still subbed.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Liwilliams

[branmakmuffin]

I think their plan is to keep PvP as casual as possible and accessible to everyone.

I'd do PvP if I didn't have to do it with other players.