Subscription: Advertisement vs Truth

[CosmicKat]

...

 

In SWTOR's case, you're paying for the coins. There is a predetermined allotment from your sub that covers the cost of those 500 coins. It's probably not $5, but it is there. So those coins really aren't "free."

 

....

 

In any case, this argument that subers get "free" Cartel Coins is erroneous.

 

Well put.

 

People fail to realize that the actual value of their subscription dropped by X% when F2P became reality. It dropped because your subscription, at that point, was no longer "all inclusive". They decreased the value of your subscription by 33% and gave you a 10% off coupon for the stuff that used to be part of the package, in effect.

[SithKoriandr]

The way to fix the Cathar, is for them to make it an available race for one class. Pick a side, pick a class, and then people can work their way to 50 to earn it or be happy with the one class it's available on.

 

Customization should be free for subscribers (well pay creds anyways) on the slider options. I can see them charging CC to change gender (if it's an option) or body type (which I believe at least this was an option).

[SithVeritas]

The way to fix the Cathar, is for them to make it an available race for one class. Pick a side, pick a class, and then people can work their way to 50 to earn it or be happy with the one class it's available on.

 

Customization should be free for subscribers (well pay creds anyways) on the slider options. I can see them charging CC to change gender (if it's an option) or body type (which I believe at least this was an option).

 

Yup, like all other species.

 

Devs have said us subscribers are still their number 1 audience, so I really hope they listen to us on this.

Edited April 29, 2013 by SithVeritas

[Shoogli]

People fail to realize that the actual value of their subscription dropped by X% when F2P became reality. It dropped because your subscription, at that point, was no longer "all inclusive". They decreased the value of your subscription by 33% and gave you a 10% off coupon for the stuff that used to be part of the package, in effect.

 

I would like to also add another item that also decreased the value of the game a TON :

Even though not all free-loaders are negative, the % of offenders, youngsters that can't spell even if they wanted to, people who will spew racist facts in general chat as well as pure offensive material has shot up tenfold since F2P and the sense of community has gone down the drain.

[SithKoriandr]

Yup, like all other species.

 

Devs have said us subscribers are still their number 1 audience, so I really hope they listen to us on this.

 

Well, they'd still end up with complaints of "Why is this new race not on the class I want it to be on?!" buuut, at least it would have a free way for subs to put it on the other classes.

 

My thought is Trooper or Knight (and I make this suggestion btw with no intention of ever making a cathar, but then, I had no intention of ever making a Twi'lek, and I finally decided Twi'lek for my Trooper. )

 

If hardcore, only play Empire Side feel jilted...

 

1) oh well, get over it

 

2) can always make the next race Empire side

[SithVeritas]

Well, they'd still end up with complaints of "Why is this new race not on the class I want it to be on?!" buuut, at least it would have a free way for subs to put it on the other classes.

 

My thought is Trooper or Knight (and I make this suggestion btw with no intention of ever making a cathar, but then, I had no intention of ever making a Twi'lek, and I finally decided Twi'lek for my Trooper. )

 

If hardcore, only play Empire Side feel jilted...

 

1) oh well, get over it

 

2) can always make the next race Empire side

 

Should do it like all other classes, make it available to at least 1 class on each side, F2P/Preferred buys, we get it with the sub and unlock it for other classes by leveling it to 50.

[HoboWithAStick]

I love how there is no yellow post in here yet.

 

All of the 2.1 content needs to be free to subs, plain and simple.

If you have to pay for additional for anything then its a cartel market update not a game update and in that case I would assume that bioware is going to have many other goodies in 2.1 then just another cash shop.

 

BTW Cathar were announced before free to play was even a thing and were suppose to come out last year so really they should be free for subs.

[Soluss]

Yeah because subscribers have never had to pay for new classes and races. Oh wait, they are often added in expansions that subscribers need to pay for so if you don't pay you can't access the new race or class.

 

Oh wait, didnt we just pay for a new "expansion" a couple weeks ago? I assure you the cathar race was finished long ago and could have been packaged in but EAWare chose to wait and charge more.

[SithVeritas]

I love how there is no yellow post in here yet.

 

All of the 2.1 content needs to be free to subs, plain and simple.

If you have to pay for additional for anything then its a cartel market update not a game update and in that case I would assume that bioware is going to have many other goodies in 2.1 then just another cash shop.

 

BTW Cathar were announced before free to play was even a thing and were suppose to come out last year so really they should be free for subs.

 

I'm guessing we will hear something tomorrow, if anything, it is Sunday today. XD

But yeah I agree with you. I have faith they'll listen to us on this, this something no one has done before so it might just be them testing the waters - which they really need to stop doing.

[Grayseven]

I fail to see the issue there.. You could once by bank tabs with credits.. Now you can buy them with CC.. What is the difference??

 

There are a ton of things that you could once buy with credits that you can now buy with CC.. So they want to put the Cathar on the CM.. So what?? What difference does it make?? It isn't false advertisement...

 

You need to explain why a subscriber is entitled to a species for free, when we never were able to get one for free before.. You either had to buy the unlock or level to 50.. In either case it wasn't free..

 

 

Let me use this post as an example, as it is one of the worst in the bunch.

 

The biggest error is in saying we didn't get races for free. Wrong, we got all the races for free. Granted, some races weren't available for some classes until you unlocked them but we didn't have to pay for a single one of them. Effort is not a price. Their is no comparison between effort in game and paying CC.

 

Subscribers pay 15 bucks a month for access to everything the game has to offer. Some may require effort but that is the way of online gaming...you give effort, you get stuff. This should include new races because we've already paid for them with our ongoing subscription. We as subscribers are not asking for anything to be free, we are asking that EA/BW keep their word and give us what we've already paid for.

 

Their is NOTHING you can buy with CC that a subscriber can't get with credits or effort. If BW wants to make unlocking Cathar a quest line for subscribers...that's fine. But making it a CC only transaction goes against what they've told us was a benefit of subscribing.

 

In essence, they are saying that our 15 bucks a month isn't good enough.

[Soluss]

I'll see your false analogies and non sequiturs and raise you a false equivalency.

 

The problem with the "subs get coins for free" argument is they are notfee--and to that end, neither are the vouchers in your analogy.

 

The dealer does not pay the cost of that $500. One of two things happen:

 

The more common scenario is the $500 is simply factored into the price of the car. You're really not getting the deal you think you are; you pay $20,000 for a car with an actual market value of $19500. They charge you the 20k because it's better for commission purposes (and looks better in the books), but they get creative in assuring your money's worth as to avoid fraud claims. Despite common belief, cars start to depreciate the second they come off the assembly line. So even a 2014 model with an MSRP of $20k that's been sitting in a lot for a while, really isn't worth that much.

 

The other thing that might happen is the voucher is paid for by third parties: i.e. the trim company, Valvoline/Pennzoil (for oil changes), that sort of thing. They do this as it's simply a form of advertising and is budgeted as such. Each time you get your oil changed, they put the mileage counter in your window, and you spend three months (or 3,000 miles ) staring at he big red Valvoline "V.".

 

It's no different with F2P games.

 

In SWTOR's case, you're paying for the coins. There is a predetermined allotment from your sub that covers the cost of those 500 coins. It's probably not $5, but it is there. So those coins really aren't "free."

 

Like the car depreciation, the market value for SWTOR went down the minute it turned F2P. I have no idea what the actual appropriate value for a F2P AAA MMO sub is, but it's not $15. EA chose to keep the sub price at $15 and use the difference to pay for the monthly coin stipend.

 

Similarity to the third-party example, other F2P companies (PWE is big on this.) choose to go the kick-back route. They use those pre-pay cards. The card companies give a kick back each time one of those cards is purchased. So you see "buy X Zen, get Y free" all the time, well the Y really isn't free. It's been paid for.

 

In any case, this argument that subers get "free" Cartel Coins is erroneous.

 

This is very well put.

[SithVeritas]

Oh wait, didnt we just pay for a new "expansion" a couple weeks ago? I assure you the cathar race was finished long ago and could have been packaged in but EAWare chose to wait and charge more.

 

Don't want to believe it, but this sounds very likely

It has only been what, 2 weeks top since 2.0 launched?

 

Then again we have a few weeks to go, might just be finishing it up.

Edited April 29, 2013 by SithVeritas

[DaRoamer]

Oh wait, didnt we just pay for a new "expansion" a couple weeks ago? I assure you the cathar race was finished long ago and could have been packaged in but EAWare chose to wait and charge more.

 

We did pay for an expansion, at 1/4 of the cost of most expansions. Are you saying that if the expansion had cost $15 and included the Cathar you wouldn't be complaining at all? The truth is that in the vast majority of MMOs new races have always been a paid update for subscribers. Let's not start pretending that paid content updates, ie expansions, don't exist in other MMOs. WoW had one "free" content updates in all of 2012 and this was after the expansion before which subs were treated to zero content updates at all for the first 8 months.

 

Also, stop making definitive statements like "Cathar was finished long ago" unless you actually have proof that this is the case. Showing one or two Cathar models in a trailer isn't the same thing as having everything finished, we have no idea what assignments the art team may have been placed on in the meantime that put Cathar on hold for a while. I haven't looked at the trailer in a while but it may even have been models that already existed in game and as we know there were a bunch of changes made to the race before release.

[Soluss]

We did pay for an expansion, at 1/4 of the cost of most expansions. Are you saying that if the expansion had cost $15 and included the Cathar you wouldn't be complaining at all? The truth is that in the vast majority of MMOs new races have always been a paid update for subscribers. Let's not start pretending that paid content updates, ie expansions, don't exist in other MMOs. WoW had one "free" content updates in all of 2012 and this was after the expansion before which subs were treated to zero content updates at all for the first 8 months.

 

Also, stop making definitive statements like "Cathar was finished long ago" unless you actually have proof that this is the case. Showing one or two Cathar models in a trailer isn't the same thing as having everything finished, we have no idea what assignments the art team may have been placed on in the meantime that put Cathar on hold for a while. I haven't looked at the trailer in a while but it may even have been models that already existed in game and as we know there were a bunch of changes made to the race before release.

 

Dont make it sound like we got a deal. We paid 1/4 the cost and recieved less then a 1/4 of content of a typical expansion. While I think it was worth 10 bucks, it surely doesnt justify what you just said. 1 race is not going to raise the cost of an expansion by 5 bucks man.

 

If you want to bring WoW into the picture.... WoW has alot more sustainable content then ToR does. WoW may have had that one year where they had 1 real content update but they have had a ton of updating. One thing I can say about WoW is that it is worth the subscription costs. The game is well done and so are their expansions. We had a DLC here man, nothing more. Its not much bigger then the size of a free content update you would find elsewhere. EQ2 expansions use to last me an entire year, including the updating throughout the year. ToRs DLC lasted me a week at best. Big difference. Before you spout on the cost you might want to think about what other MMOs have done.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Soluss

[Elyxin]

I think the issue with the cathar is that prior to f2p even being on the table (at least for us as players), cather was discussed as coming in the game. It was naturally assumed that it would either be:

 

1) part of an XP, or

2) added to an update (in sub games those are usually free)

 

and then 80% of what they were saying and how they said it changed with f2p. and many woke up the next morning with their butt sore and their cellphone and stereo gone from the room (I'm pretty sure she was a girl...).

 

It isn't about contracts or promises...it's about interactive discussions and Bio not living up to them. Not completely their fault...at that time, they were discussing what they thought the model was...and it changed. I work for a big business, and let me tell ya...that happens allot. new manager comes in, and everything you did before changes cause it's HIS way now.

 

I feel misled by the decision with the cathar. I know that logically I can find a reason why the cartel market option fits and makes sense. I can also understand why they are doing it this way...but I still feel like i woke up and something is missing.

 

That's what happens when you walk into a situation expecting one thing and eventually getting another. and we can discuss all we want about whats promised or not...if players feel jilted...well, they leave. there are certain companies that I do not buy from, simply because they're products suck. they may LOOK like the products from other companies, but they are cheaper and fall apart when i get them. so they don't get my business.

 

So far, im not leaving because of the cathar. I feel a bit slighted, but I realize that if any promises were made, they were midnight promises, and I woke up to the next morning was a different story. if I don't like the story, I'll kick them out of the house. plain and simple. so far they can stay in da house.

[Ultramecha]

Nope, I sub because I enjoy the game for the most part. That doesnt mean I cant criticize what I dont like. On the same token, you dont have to defend every single thing this company does, just because you like the game. This company does milk people to play their game. You cannot deny this. If you really do not think you are getting milked then you have no value for money.

 

Im glad you at least said you enjoy the game for the most part.

And im unmilkable as far as I know it would taste horrible.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Ultramecha

[DaRoamer]

Dont make it sound like we got a deal. We paid 1/4 the cost and recieved less then a 1/4 of content of a typical expansion. While I think it was worth 10 bucks, it surely doesnt justify what you just said. 1 race is not going to raise the cost of an expansion by 5 bucks man.

 

If you want to bring WoW into the picture.... WoW has alot more sustainable content then ToR does. WoW may have had that one year where they had 1 real content update but they have had a ton of updating. One thing I can say about WoW is that it is worth the subscription costs. The game is well done and so are their expansions. We had a DLC here man, nothing more. Its not much bigger then the size of a free content update you would find elsewhere. EQ2 expansions use to last me an entire year, including the updating throughout the year. ToRs DLC lasted me a week at best. Big difference. Before you spout on the cost you might want to think about what other MMOs have done.

 

I know what MMOs have done, I've played dozens and subbed to many in the past 12 years. Your assertion that ROTHC is no bigger than a standard update is simply absurd. Please show me some examples from any game that gave you two 8-10 hour storylines with 3 hours of cutscenes with full voice acting and cinematics in a standard update as part of a subscription. As for your EQ2 claim, which expansion was that? Certainly none of the ones I played.

 

Frankly I shouldn't be surprised by the gross overreactions here, MMO forums have notoriously been home to incessant whining and nerd rage. At least the general areas, there is often useful information to be found on other areas of the forums.

Edited April 29, 2013 by DaRoamer

[branmakmuffin]

Frankly I shouldn't be surprised by the gross overreactions here, MMO forums have notoriously been home to incessant whining and nerd rage.

Funny, sad and true, all at the same time.

[Soluss]

Im glad you at least said you enjoy the game for the most part.

And im unmilkable as far as I know it would taste horrible.

 

lolz. Thanks for the laugh.

[Soluss]

I know what MMOs have done, I've played dozens and subbed to many in the past 12 years. Your assertion that ROTHC is no bigger than a standard update is simply absurd. Please show me some examples from any game that gave you two 8-10 hour storylines with 3 hours of cutscenes with full voice acting and cinematics in a standard update as part of a subscription. As for your EQ2 claim, which expansion was that? Certainly none of the ones I played.

 

Frankly I shouldn't be surprised by the gross overreactions here, MMO forums have notoriously been home to incessant whining and nerd rage. At least the general areas, there is often useful information to be found on other areas of the forums.

 

Obviously no other MMO has put out cinematics on that scale. Cinematics arent gameplay its flashy stuff. I would chose an extra 3 hours of gameplay over 3 hours of movie times. As for the 8-10 hours of story..... its not its more than like an hour of story. You cant say plowing through mob pack after mob pack is part of the 8-10 hours of story. In whole it was 8-10 hours of content. Lotro did quite well before F2P with putting out new areas about every 4 months that would give you hours of content for free. Rift put out an entire island that gave that much content for free. Just to name 2 examples.

 

As for my claim of EQ2.... all of them up until the point I stopped playing. I cannot speak for afterwards By the time we leveled and got all the AA abilities and got through all the raiding content, it took us like a year. Echoes of Faydwer gave entirely new starting zones and added quite a bit of leveling process to the game. Every expansion had lots to do. EQ2 had a lot of depth between collections, crafting, housing, heritage quests, epic quests, etc. If you blew past it in a couple months then either you were in a cutting edge raiding guild or you simply did just the solo content.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Soluss

[DaRoamer]

Obviously no other MMO has put out cinematics on that scale. Cinematics arent gameplay its flashy stuff. I would chose an extra 3 hours of gameplay over 3 hours of movie times. As for the 8-10 hours of story..... its not its more than like an hour of story. You cant say plowing through mob pack after mob pack is part of the 8-10 hours of story. In whole it was 8-10 hours of content. Lotro did quite well before F2P with putting out new areas about every 4 months that would give you hours of content for free. Rift put out an entire island that gave that much content for free. Just to name 2 examples.

 

As for my claim of EQ2.... all of them up until the point I stopped playing. I cannot speak for afterwards By the time we leveled and got all the AA abilities and got through all the raiding content, it took us like a year. Echoes of Faydwer gave entirely new starting zones and added quite a bit of leveling process to the game. Every expansion had lots to do. EQ2 had a lot of depth between collections, crafting, housing, heritage quests, epic quests, etc. If you blew past it in a couple months then either you were in a cutting edge raiding guild or you simply did just the solo content.

 

It's about 1.5 hours of just dialogue/cutscenes per faction. That's 3 hours total without doing any of the quests. You're using quite the double standards there saying that actually doing the quests doesn't count towards the time and then you say that EQ2 gave you a years worth of content because you had to grind AA.

 

So with that in mind in a week you:

 

Finished Makeb for both factions?

Did all the Makeb daily and weekly quests after completing it?

Defeated the new world boss?

Did the seeker droid quest line?

Did the macrobinocular quest line?

Finished the new Operation on all 3 difficulties?

Did all 4 new hard mode Flashpoints?

Got the complete set of the new highest tier of PVE gear?

Got the complete set of the new highest tier of PVP gear?

Did all the GSI quests on all 5 planets?

Found all pieces of the Dreadseed/Star Forager armour?

Got both datacrons on Makeb?

Got maximum reputation with GSI and Makeb?

Found all 102 hidden MCR-99 droids?

Learned all the new crafting recipes and discovered the purple versions?

And of course, completed all your achievements? Or even just the new ones on Makeb?

 

You must have had quite the week.

Edited April 29, 2013 by DaRoamer

[danielearley]

So from what we've heard of the new 2.1 update it seems as both the new race, Cathar and the new customization options are being put into the cartel market. As such I'd like to draw attention to a page that Bioware themselves used as commercial for subscribing.

 

http://www.swtor.com/free/features

 

We've been constantly promised that subscribers would have full access to character customization. You guys at Bioware going to update that soon and stop making false advertisement? While I'm sure that the F2P and Cartel Market pushed this game forward there seemed to be a trend to make some actual content in this game a P2W hybrid where either you have to have enough in-game money to buy packs off the GTN or enough real-money to buy packs of the CM.

 

I see nothing in the link that says the Barber shop or Cathar race are free! No false advertising there!

 

If I want the new race I will use the free coins I get, for the reason they are intended.

 

I have not seen yet what the cost of all these new features will be, can someone link the info from the DEVS or is this whole thread based on speculation?

[Arlbo_Nabbins]

Oh wait, didnt we just pay for a new "expansion" a couple weeks ago? I assure you the cathar race was finished long ago and could have been packaged in but EAWare chose to wait and charge more.

 

So they increase the price of the expansion to include the Cathar unlock, which means that people who don't want to play Cathar end up paying for it? Better to sell them seperately so people can buy what they want when they want it.

 

New races have overwhelmingly been something that subscribers have paid for in MMOs because they do not arrive as free content updates in most games.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Arlbo_Nabbins

[SithVeritas]

It's about 1.5 hours of just dialogue/cutscenes per faction. That's 3 hours total without doing any of the quests. You're using quite the double standards there saying that actually doing the quests doesn't count towards the time and then you say that EQ2 gave you a years worth of content because you had to grind AA.

 

So with that in mind in a week you:

 

Finished Makeb for both factions?

Did all the Makeb daily and weekly quests after completing it?

Defeated the new world boss?

Did the seeker droid quest line?

Did the macrobinocular quest line?

Finished the new Operation on all 3 difficulties?

Did all 4 new hard mode Flashpoints?

Got the complete set of the new highest tier of PVE gear?

Got the complete set of the new highest tier of PVP gear?

Did all the GSI quests on all 5 planets?

Found all pieces of the Dreadseed/Star Forager armour?

Got both datacrons on Makeb?

Got maximum reputation with GSI and Makeb?

Found all 102 hidden MCR-99 droids?

Learned all the new crafting recipes and discovered the purple versions?

And of course, completed all your achievements? Or even just the new ones on Makeb?

 

You must have had quite the week.

 

When did he say he's a completionist?

 

It's funny how he has to be a completionist for you to get such a long list, way to make a point.

 

I see nothing in the link that says the Barber shop or Cathar race are free! No false advertising there!

 

If I want the new race I will use the free coins I get, for the reason they are intended.

 

I have not seen yet what the cost of all these new features will be, can someone link the info from the DEVS or is this whole thread based on speculation?

 

Someone had an entire conversation on this a page or two ago, if you wanna check it out.

 

There's people who agree and there's people who disagree.

 

Frankly I shouldn't be surprised by the gross overreactions here, MMO forums have notoriously been home to incessant whining and nerd rage.

 

If that's what's you think that's cool. I just don't want CM in my sub. It was supposed to be an exclusive thingy away from the main sub game, Damion Schubert said they didn't want the CM to be the 'way' to play the game, now it kind of is.

Edited April 29, 2013 by SithVeritas

[Kesphin]

I don't understand why people absolutly want to pay when they could get it for free with their subscription. More, they give arguments : "I want to pay for this feature because..."

 

Seriously, do you work for Bioware? If not, maybe you should try to use your brain.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Kesphin