Shadows/assassins need a rebalance

[cycao]

lol a vengeance jugg crying about 1v1

 

get a hold of liege, the best vengeance jugg in the game, and ask how he beat turrican, one of, if not the best, sins in the game

 

Yeah liege is cray on his jug.

[Brunner_Venda]

And there's some stuff about "Sage/Sorc is fine. L2P." Or translation in context "Nerf what kills me. Things I find easy to kill are fine."

 

I don't play a Sorc, and I'll say that they aren't. Their absorb ability is pathetic, it should be doubled or tripled at least because they go down fast in arenas without ever having a chance. My VG never has problems with them, regardless of player skill.

 

They don't have a single attack that hits for more than 5-6K or so in a channeled tick, that should be fixed.

 

Instead we're buffing sin... I'm just... Wrong AC Bioware.

[Kayriel]

I think this is the first thread in the pvp forums that i reply , it will most probably be the last reply from me as well.

First off , let me get this out of the way and say that i play a full Deception Assassin as my main , i have played this spec. since vanilla early access and i play the class in both aspects of the game ( take from this what you want ).

With that out of the way , i will assume that the OP started to play the game some time after 2.0 was launched , same thing for the people here , that think Deception is OP The reason for my assumption is very simple , and it is because , if they ever played the game before 2.0 , and encountered an assassin in Deception spec. , they would realize that their damage was not changed at all, compared to 1.7. Back then the average HP pool in pvp for DPS was @18 k , a Maul crit. did @ 6.7k dmg , a Discharge did between 5 to 6 k dmg (depending on the RNG caused by static charges ) and a buffed shock (buffed = 2x VS= 30% dmg boost for Shock ; normal , not double shock ) did @ 4.5 to 5.5 k

If you can keep these numbers in mind , and translate them to the gear and level we have new , you would understand that the damage , proportionate to the stats , is kind of the same ( no math expert here , but this is how it feels from my perspective and from the perspective of the people i talked about this )

All that said , the differences from 1.7 and 2.0 are the crit nerf across the board , which hurt Deception and Concealment the most IMHO , along with giving the tree an overhaul with more control over the burst , at the cost of sustained dmg ( crit nerf is to blame for this one ) , by way of Electric Ambush and Impose Weakness , but with the control we lost our 30% dmg boost from Shock.

I believe the reason people are asking for the nerf of the spec , is the same as with Smash spec. before 1.4 the damage of smash was as crazy as it was in 1.7 and as it is now ( again , proportionate to the stats ) , but before 1.4 Smash was not instant as the skill said it was , it took 1.5 seconds for the damage to hit , now a good Smasher would land that hit no matter , what but terrible people couldn't , Byoware fixed the issue , and all of a sudden you have the warzones filled with Smashers , since it is very easy now. The same thing is happening now with Deception , but unlike Smash , Deception burst can be avoided , or mitigated , by people who study the AC.

In regards to the discution about 1 VS 1 , i also have a Vengeance Juggernaut as an alt , and i can tell you that , i can beat a Deception assassin , it is not that hard to counter the burst once you are aware of what too keep an eye out for , and when to use the cooldowns that your class comes equipped with , the Spike is 2 seconds ( and sorry to say this but you are an idiot if you trinket that ) , stun is 4 seconds ( if this hits after Spike , you should have more or less full resolve and you can pop trinket ) , Low Slash is 4 second mezz ( this means 1 hit , if you are not a Keyboard Turner ).

If you don't believe what i wrote above about the dmg of the spec , my proof is in Xinika's videos on youtube , take 10 minutes and look up some pvp vids.

As a last note , i completely agree with the people here that Maul does not need a buf in order to increase sustained dmg , and i would much rather Byoware will go another route for that aspect , but please stop calling a spec. OP if you don't do your homework on how to counter it , and only come up with random numbers , like the guy who said he saw a sin doing 9k crits with 3 of his attacks. It may be that there is a posibility of 1 of his attacks doing that amount , but that is because people are stacking relics , and it is something that every class in the game has access to , i was hit for 11k HS crit from a merc because of that , but please don;t confuse a bug , that will (hopefully) sooner or later be fixed , with the actual damage of an AC.

[DarthBloodloss]

I think assassins are pretty solid in solo ranked arenas. The reasons I feel this way:

1) In Arenas, its usually the first team to kill a single opponent that wins

2) Sins can more easily pick out the weak link

3) The weak link gets less support due to less then optimal communication and strat (due to solo queue)

 

I find that 2 (or even 3) sins is not an ideal composition, but in solo queue it can be hard to deal with. They are going to instantly explode that 29k HP guy on your team. (See point #1 above)

[Fozy]

So says "try to fight me 1v1"...so basically bragging and then complains about assassins in 1v1. Yeah that spec is more than fine and it's getting a nice little buff as well.

 

Good dig Techno.

 

lmfao. for someone who claims to know what their talking about, you couldnt be more wrong. I did play veng jugg, almost 3 years ago... LOL good dig, or blind leading the blind? Fact still remains that sins are not in the position for a buff. How thick do you have to be?

[CommanderKeeva]

I actually like killing Assassins on my Sniper. Dot them with Corrosive Dart, root them with Leg Shot and savor that precious look on their face when they realize they can neither cloak nor Force Speed away from the next Ambush.

 

However, if they catch me unaware and open up on me, there's not a lot I can do to beat them, though it's still more than what Sages and Commandos can do. At that point it's a matter of whether I have my knockbacks available or not. So I like to drop Plasma Probe behind me whenever possible to guard my back if I'm on a ledge.

 

What's absolutely deadly, however, is having two Deception Sins in warzones attacking the healer right from stealth. If they both open up on him, it's such a high volume of CC and burst that it's just not really possible to defend against.

 

So I would say that Assassins are the most dangerous in pairs hunting down the enemy healers at the start of the match. Such a strategy can easily tip the favor towards the sin's team if they're trying to cap an objective.

[cycao]

lmfao. for someone who claims to know what their talking about, you couldnt be more wrong. I did play veng jugg, almost 3 years ago... LOL good dig, or blind leading the blind? Fact still remains that sins are not in the position for a buff. How thick do you have to be?

 

So you played vig back in beta, good to know. And I do know what I'm talking about, I have been playing this class and all three specs since early access and I know a decent amount of people who think I'm not too shabby of a sin. All you keep saying is they need a nerf and can lay three straight 9k crits.

 

They open on you they can certainly cause some damage at the cost of blowing all their cooldowns. Outside of stealth they can still be a pain but can't inflict no where near the amount of damage when opening up on a target which is why bads only complain about 1v1's and duels and open world.

 

I think you're complaining just to complain because you're either playing a spec which keeps getting owned by assassins and have absolutely no clue how to even defend against one or are simply just on the nerf assassin bandwagon.

Edited October 24, 2013 by cycao

[Fozy]

So you played vig back in beta, good to know. And I do know what I'm talking about, I have been playing this spec since early access and I know a decent amount of people who think I'm not too shabby of a sin. All you keep saying is they need a nerf and can lay three straight 9k crits.

 

They open on you they can certainly cause some damage at the cost of blowing all their cooldowns. Outside of stealth they can still be a pain but can't inflict no where near the amount of damage when opening up on a target which is why bads only complain about 1v1's and duels and open world.

 

I think you're complaining just to complain because you're either playing a spec which keeps getting owned by assassins and have absolutely no clue how to even defend against one or are simply just on the nerf assassin bandwagon.

 

Typical assassin response. " Your just bad, L2P " Yet theres 2, 3 sometimes 4 assassins in warzones, Always.

[JP_Legatus]

Typical assassin response. " Your just bad, L2P " Yet theres 2, 3 sometimes 4 assassins in warzones, Always.

 

In solo queue warzones? Maybe, but in actual group rated on the off chance you do see a deception sin, you don't see him long because he loses against the team with 2x Mara or 2x PT.

 

Out of curiosity how often do you play team rated? Solo queue might be populated by sins, but that's because we've all been forced to node guard for 1.5 years and now we can finally play rated. It's not because the team wants deception sins instead of maras or PTs

[Fozy]

In solo queue warzones? Maybe, but in actual group rated on the off chance you do see a deception sin, you don't see him long because he loses against the team with 2x Mara or 2x PT.

 

Out of curiosity how often do you play team rated? Solo queue might be populated by sins, but that's because we've all been forced to node guard for 1.5 years and now we can finally play rated. It's not because the team wants deception sins instead of maras or PTs

 

Do you realize how tiny and insignificant rateds are. The VAST majority of swtor is not q'ing up. You should stop and think why that is. And for once you said something correct. Solo q's are absolutely flooded with sins, literally HUNDREDS. We'll, i've put in my 2 cents..no reason to keep going back and forth with you knuckleheads.

[cycao]

Typical assassin response. " Your just bad, L2P " Yet theres 2, 3 sometimes 4 assassins in warzones, Always.

 

Honestly, you sound bad and need to learn to play. You're not giving any specifics outside of your random incoherent rants about 9k stun locking hits.

 

And yeah I have been in warzones with an over abundance of sins, 1-2 might break 800dps and 1-2 might get one protection medals. The majority of these classes (just like every other class) cannot play it correctly. Just because there can be 2-4 of any class spec in a random regular warzone does not make it overpowered, just over played.

[JP_Legatus]

Do you realize how tiny and insignificant rateds are. The VAST majority of swtor is not q'ing up. You should stop and think why that is. And for once you said something correct. Solo q's are absolutely flooded with sins, literally HUNDREDS. We'll, i've put in my 2 cents..no reason to keep going back and forth with you knuckleheads.

 

In that instance I think we are agreed then, and that's where the confusion is coming from. Sins are overpowered as **** in regs. In fact I can continuously throw out a stream of 6k damage per global almost every global for minutes at a time under optimal regs game conditions. That's like 4000 dps.

 

That's just the problem bioware created with the spec, it's OP in regs and **** in rated play. It all goes back to the addition of Electric Ambush. I've been ************ about this talent since it went live and I'm going to continue to ***** about it until people realize how bad design that is.

 

In any case, generally when people say "sins are op" we look at top level play to see if that's really the case. Sure it's OP in regs, but that's only because regs are infested with bad players, where deception is excellent at executing bads. It's actually quite a bad spec vs good players and good teams. I think that's where this mixup of people think deception is overpowered occurs.

 

So yes, deception is OP in your games. Regardless, maul has nothing to do with that. It's all about electric ambush. Maul damage, while buffs are stupid, are not the reason sins are OP in regs and still won't be the reason after it gets buffed.

 

I guess from now on when someone says "deception is OP" I should automatically ask how often they do regs and how often they do arenas. Brilliant move on that electric ambush talent bioware.

 

I also disagree with your assessment of how many people do regs, but that's a debate for another place.

Edited October 25, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[DarthMaulUK]

So I would say that Assassins are the most dangerous in pairs hunting down the enemy healers at the start of the match. Such a strategy can easily tip the favor towards the sin's team if they're trying to cap an objective.

 

If you come across 2 Sins/Shadows working closely together, yes indeed. Of course this all depends on the maps - like Voidstar one can zap, while the other plants for example.

 

During games like Hypergate and Voidstar/Civil War, I often find myself working with another Sin, if I am not node guarding and we can both be lethal.

 

However, 3 nights ago, my friend who has a Shadow, managed to do a waste of space Arena and in her group was FOUR Shadows. Now according to Biofails live stream last night, shouldn't happen...well it does! Needless to say, they slapped people silly because they all worked together.

 

Never under estimate a good Sin/Shadow but of course whilst we are waiting on cooldowns, or force power we can be sitting ducks but thats what Cloak is for

 

It annoys me when players say 'Oh the Sin is OP' - it's not. If a player hasnt the brain power to deal with their burst damage in deception(which 85% of Sins are) then you deserve to be beaten. It's like every class and a judgement call when you decide to take on a player in 1v1.

 

You can't expect to beat everyone and you will find other Sins will die quicker than others due to the gear gap and their own ability to play the class.

Edited October 25, 2013 by DarthMaulUK

[JackNader]

The reason sins are overpowered beyond belief in regs is based on 2 principals.

 

A) They have the most stunlock/interrupt potential of any class. They are by definition a complete shutdown class.

 

B) Electric ambush reduces your recklessness cooldown by 60 seconds every time you exit combat. Recklessness provides a +60% crit rate on your next 2 force attacks. Combined with the assassin PvP set bonus, it essentially means your recklessness always resets on combat exit and provides 3 +60% crit force attacks.

 

The result of this in regs, played by even an "average" assassin is devastating. You never get to the sustained damage phase, you are always bursting. It is why I call this spec a "gutless stun locking scrub spec."

 

The specs design in ranked arena's is prohibitive. You are not going to be able to lock down and kill anybody quickly. Once your burst is gone, your reduced to very sub par sustained damage. On top of that, your stuck in combat until the melee is over.

 

The spec is in desperate need of a redesign. IMO Bioware needs to get away from reliance on stuns and front loaded burst. Replace them with proper utility and decent sustained damage.

[cycao]

The reason sins are overpowered beyond belief in regs is based on 2 principals.

 

A) They have the most stunlock/interrupt potential of any class. They are by definition a complete shutdown class.

 

B) Electric ambush reduces your recklessness cooldown by 60 seconds every time you exit combat. Recklessness provides a +60% crit rate on your next 2 force attacks. Combined with the assassin PvP set bonus, it essentially means your recklessness always resets on combat exit and provides 3 +60% crit force attacks.

 

The result of this in regs, played by even an "average" assassin is devastating. You never get to the sustained damage phase, you are always bursting. It is why I call this spec a "gutless stun locking scrub spec."

 

The specs design in ranked arena's is prohibitive. You are not going to be able to lock down and kill anybody quickly. Once your burst is gone, your reduced to very sub par sustained damage. On top of that, your stuck in combat until the melee is over.

 

The spec is in desperate need of a redesign. IMO Bioware needs to get away from reliance on stuns and front loaded burst. Replace them with proper utility and decent sustained damage.

 

I'm not always bursting. I can essentially melt a target if I decide they're worth blowing all my cooldowns at the start of a fight. There are still going to be long drawn out fights where you're not going to be dropping combat all that often and I find myself using recklessness off its normal cooldown more than anything.

 

Other than that I somewhat agree with you. I never liked duplicity being tied into low slash, spike made sense due to it being only useable from stealth. I don't agree with it needing a redesign. It's not a sustained damage spec it has always been a high bursting class but as you said it's a regstar class and only the better players will make it work in arenas. We have a sustained tree, it just so happens to be the worst spec in the game.

[cycao]

Besides people are looking at this all wrong. The majority of deception players suck. They need to be more worried about any darkness hybrid due to the major buffs to the armor ratings. Now you're going to have all these assassins who usually die fairly easy and giving them an insane boost to their survivability.

[Tankqull]

Besides people are looking at this all wrong. The majority of deception players suck. They need to be more worried about any darkness hybrid due to the major buffs to the armor ratings. Now you're going to have all these assassins who usually die fairly easy and giving them an insane boost to their survivability.

 

that could be easiliy changed/fixed instead of increasing the armorrating make the tank stance add 100-150%(exact number must be estimated) of the shield absorbvalue to be added to the armor absorb. (~20% armor absorb+ ~30% shieldabsorb added to armor absorb = ~50% wich is comparable to other tanks)

that way you will with tank equip achieve tank armor absorb values while with DPS gear you still sit at dps armor absorb values.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Tankqull

[Technohic]

that could be easiliy changed/fixed instead of increasing the armorrating make the tank stance add 100-150%(exact number must be estimated) of the shield absorbvalue to be added to the armor absorb. (~20% armor absorb+ ~30% shieldabsorb added to armor absorb = ~50% wich is comparable to other tanks)

that way you will with tank equip achieve tank armor absorb values while with DPS gear you still sit at dps armor absorb values.

 

Or they could just increase the amount of damage dark charge reduces. Right now I think it is just a 5% bonus damage reduction.

[cycao]

Or they could just increase the amount of damage dark charge reduces. Right now I think it is just a 5% bonus damage reduction.

 

This would probably be best and you can totally negate that with the survivor 4 piece set bonus.

[Zoom_VI]

Just cut the stance's armor rating to its 2.0 value, then increase the armor high in the tank tree

[Tankqull]

Or they could just increase the amount of damage dark charge reduces. Right now I think it is just a 5% bonus damage reduction.

 

that wont fix the problem of people running around in DPSgear+ darkcharge/kinetic stance while achieving way higher survivability without neglecting much dmg.

thats the reason hybrid-vang/powertech tanks are so popular currently, they have awsome defense while not losing really good offense.

 

another option would be a simple higher dmg-decrease in pvp while in any tankstance fom -10% to maybe -50% [pveler don´t cry - PVP-only!] even though jugg/guardian- tanks would be hurt unnecessary.

[cycao]

that wont fix the problem of people running around in DPSgear+ darkcharge/kinetic stance while achieving way higher survivability without neglecting much dmg.

thats the reason hybrid-vang/powertech tanks are so popular currently, they have awsome defense while not losing really good offense.

 

another option would be a simple higher dmg-decrease in pvp while in any tankstance fom -10% to maybe -50% [pveler don´t cry - PVP-only!] even though jugg/guardian- tanks would be hurt unnecessary.

 

????

 

Increasing the damage output by darkcharge wont fix the problem of people running with dps gear and darkcharge?

 

I'm pretty sure if they put a higher tax on darkcharge (like 25%) It wouldn't be a huge problem.

[Technohic]

Yeah; i don't think going with DPS gear witha built in DPS tax would be very smart. You basically would make tanking gear more appealing by a long shot.

 

And the damage debuff is just to melee attacks I think so that would discourage thrashing and mauling yet still leave darknes sins with their lightning, shock and wither. If you want to maul and burst, you would want to run the other charges.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Technohic

[Tankqull]

????

 

Increasing the damage output by darkcharge wont fix the problem of people running with dps gear and darkcharge?

 

I'm pretty sure if they put a higher tax on darkcharge (like 25%) It wouldn't be a huge problem.

 

never said anything about increasing the dmg output ...

quoting myself:

another option would be a simple higher dmg-decrease in pvp while in any tankstance fom -10% to maybe -50% [pveler don´t cry - PVP-only!] even though jugg/guardian- tanks would be hurt unnecessary.

 

 

...

And the damage debuff is just to melee attacks I think so that would discourage thrashing and mauling yet still leave darknes sins with their lightning, shock and wither. If you want to maul and burst, you would want to run the other charges.

it currently effects every attack not only melee attacks

Edited October 25, 2013 by Tankqull

[Kurvv]

This would probably be best and you can totally negate that with the survivor 4 piece set bonus.

 

Then people just take armorings from survivor set and mods/enh from dps set. You're losing out on the dps bonus and your grind is a little longer, but ultimately you're at the same spot where a tank with dps stats is better than a tank with tank stats.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Kurvv