Shadows/assassins need a rebalance

[Aetrus]

Only one of those 3 skills is spammable.

 

So? Duplicity is going to get procc'd once, maybe twice. And if it doesn't crit, it's more like 3k than 8k.

 

 

EDIT: And did I seriously just see you suggest using Force Lightning as a Deception Sin? Lol....If you're having trouble with kiting, use Exfiltrate plus Sever Tendon. Problem solved.

Edited April 22, 2013 by AnusReaper

[Darthdaedric]

Spamming maul means that all but 2 of them WILL NOT BE PROCCED. Know what that means? Means 30% less damage, and exactly half our Force, each. Play the class before you cry, because you obviously have no clue how it works. Maul spam is about the worst way to play an Assassin.

 

Seriously QFT

[dcgregorya]

Really Biowareftw, every time this thread get's bumped, it's not going to hurt us, it's only going to hurt you.

It shows hows you don't have any evidence to back up your claims, you refuse to produce any, and most arguments against the assassin class are filled with misinformation.

 

He's right. Let's be generous and assume that an operative does the exact same amount of damage that a deceptsin does - fine. Deceptsin still has :

 

1) Better energy regen.

2) Lots of free damage reduction.

3) Instant heal.

 

The effective HP of the deception assassin is much higher and his range and ability to produce damage at range of 7-10m is far superior. This means at the very least, the assassin is far more forgiving. Put them both in a fight where they have all their CDs available and it's impossible for the conceal operative to win against a deception assassin with equal skill. His advantages include a roll that pulls him out of range and a mez that can be broken out of if you assume both sides have all their CDs available.

Edited April 22, 2013 by dcgregorya

[RankorSSGS]

I've got a shadow and a scoundrel (and one of everything else - including sentinel, etc) and this guy is spot on. Sorry but sins just plain out class scrappers/concealment ops. A medpack plus decent kiting = win vs scrapper whereas the deceptsin has a handful of 10m skills and even one decent 30m skill (recklessness -> FL) that makes kiting them significantly less effective and the deceptsin has far better defenses so they're not going to instantly melt when you open fire on them.

 

Sorry, but you are just a bad operative, and probably a bad sin too. Reckless FL is about as dangerous as your Charged Burst, which is 30m, spammable, and can detonate Sabotage Charge, which is guess what, another 30m ability. Assassin is kiting you? Well that means you survived his opener, which means you are home free already, and are facing a bad assassin. Heal up, force him to come after you again, or just start using Charged Burst.

[dcgregorya]

Spamming maul means that all but 2 of them WILL NOT BE PROCCED. Know what that means? Means 30% less damage, and exactly half our Force, each. Play the class before you cry, because you obviously have no clue how it works. Maul spam is about the worst way to play an Assassin.

 

I didn't say to spam it. But how are you going to compare smash which requires a whole *SETUP* to do, to an ability that procs freely at will? There's no cooldowns for maul and just one internal cooldown on the +30% damage proc.

[RankorSSGS]

He's right. Let's be generous and assume that an operative does the exact same amount of damage that a deceptsin does - fine. Deceptsin still has :

 

1) Better energy regen.

2) Lots of free damage reduction.

3) Instant heal.

 

The effective HP of the deception assassin is much higher and his range and ability to produce damage at range of 7-10m is far superior. This means at the very least, the assassin is far more forgiving. Put them both in a fight where they have all their CDs available and it's impossible for the conceal operative to win against a deception assassin with equal skill. His advantages include a roll that pulls him out of range and a mez that can be broken out of if you assume both sides have all their CDs available.

 

Assassin range is better than operative??? What, did you take any abilities not involving a knife off your bar? Seriously, you really need to l2p that class.

 

For the record, I'm not saying Concealment is fine, I do believe that it is still under performing and needs love, but it is not broken to the ridiculous extremes that have been said in this thread.

Edited April 22, 2013 by RankorSSGS

[dcgregorya]

Sorry, but you are just a bad operative, and probably a bad sin too. Reckless FL is about as dangerous as your Charged Burst, which is 30m, spammable, and can detonate Sabotage Charge, which is guess what, another 30m ability. Assassin is kiting you? Well that means you survived his opener, which means you are home free already, and are facing a bad assassin. Heal up, force him to come after you again, or just start using Charged Burst.

 

Reckless FL hits for 2k a tick at 30m with a snare, it's a great way to kill off someone who gets out of execute range. Sabo/charged is ok too but not nearly as quick to execute - you've got a lag time of 3 seconds before any damage transpires with no snare.

[dcgregorya]

Assassin range is better than operative??? What, did you take any abilities not involving a knife off your bar? Seriously, you really need to l2p that class.

 

For the record, I'm not saying Concealment is fine, I do believe that it is still under performing and needs love, but it is not broken to the ridiculous extremes that have been said in this thread.

 

Your damage as a concealed op beyond 4m is awful. You want to try to win a fight with auto attack or snipe spam go for it. And FWIW, I'm just pointing out that a deception sin should never lose against a concealment operative, under any circumstances, where both have all their CDs available. Do you disagree with that? Concealment operatives don't have anything *better* than a deception sin.

Edited April 22, 2013 by dcgregorya

[RankorSSGS]

Reckless FL hits for 2k a tick at 30m with a snare, it's a great way to kill off someone who gets out of execute range. Sabo/charged is ok too but not nearly as quick to execute - you've got a lag time of 3 seconds before any damage transpires with no snare.

 

Not as Deception it sure doesn't. Just an FYI Recklessness does not guarantee every tick of FL crits, even if the first tick does. I've used Reckless FL just for lols occasionally, and have had none of the ticks crit, after the first, which means about maybe a generous 4k TOTAL damage. 2k ticks means its a tank with at least 1 HD stack.

[RankorSSGS]

Concealment operatives don't have anything *better* than a deception sin.

 

Arguable, and even if true, that is a problem with Concealment being UP, rather than Deception being OP. Deception is finally in a good spot, able to effectively and reliably fulfill its role. Hopefully soon Concealment will get fixed and be able to fill its role effectively as well. That's all I'm trying to say.

[dcgregorya]

Not as Deception it sure doesn't. Just an FYI Recklessness does not guarantee every tick of FL crits, even if the first tick does. I've used Reckless FL just for lols occasionally, and have had none of the ticks crit, after the first, which means about maybe a generous 4k TOTAL damage. 2k ticks means its a tank with at least 1 HD stack.

 

Huh? Each tick has a +60% chance to crit. ~80% chance per tick. No not every one is guaranteed. Instant damage is better than no damage though. Half the time just dropping into cover takes a second before you can get the stupid sabo to launch. And you're being optimistic about sever tendon being the cure all for being kited at 5-10m. So many classes can counter snare you or get a snare break themselves. You're assuming the assassin isn't smart enough to force slow you. Anyway, I'll say that deceptsin > conceal op right now. Conceal op is kinda gimmicky - always has been and honestly even with the roll its just not good enough to play these days.

 

As for the general point of whether or not deceptsins are OP against *everything else* - that's a much harder question to answer because there's so many variables involved. I will say that they were really strong pre-patch and I feel like they're maybe too strong now.

Edited April 22, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Darthdaedric]

Huh? Each tick has a +60% chance to crit. ~80% chance per tick. No not every one is guaranteed. Instant damage is better than no damage though. Half the time just dropping into cover takes a second before you can get the stupid sabo to launch. And you're being optimistic about sever tendon being the cure all for being kited at 5-10m. So many classes can counter snare you or get a snare break themselves. You're assuming the assassin isn't smart enough to force slow you. Anyway, I'll say that deceptsin > conceal op right now. Conceal op is kinda gimmicky - always has been and honestly even with the roll its just not good enough to play these days.

 

As for the general point of whether or not deceptsins are OP against *everything else* - that's a much harder question to answer because there's so many variables involved. I will say that they were really strong pre-patch and I feel like they're maybe too strong now.

 

Deception was laughable when it came to DPS before 2.0. They were ridiculed.

Now they're consistently on par with most of the classes.

That's called balance.

Now some classes are UP, but most classes are on par with each other. Assassins are NOT overpowered.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Darthdaedric

[dcgregorya]

Deception was laughable when it came to DPS before 2.0. They were ridiculed.

Now they're consistently on par with most of the classes.

That's called balance.

Now some classes are UP, but most classes are on par with each other. Assassins are NOT overpowered.

 

FWIW, I owned face with my infi shadow. Now its even easier. I can't really judge whether things are OP or not, I can only base it on my own experience playing the difference classes. Infi shadow is easy newb rolling fun, concealment op loses to anyone with a medpack since they rely so heavily on hidden strike.

[Paulman]

Prove it.

I told you why it's a hard counter, explained all the things Snipers/Gunslingers have to combat them and all you said "nuh-uh, 'cause there's the one guy I know...

If they're getting owned by them, they're not doing it right. They have all the tools they need to take them down without breaking a sweat.

 

Saying that a class has tools in no way "proves" anything. I know what I see in warzones everyday and I see good shadows/sins take them. Shadows/sins have all the tools they need to kill sniper/slingers. There I provided the same amount of proof you did.

[RankorSSGS]

Infi shadow is easy newb rolling fun,

 

I do have to argue against that, it takes a lot more skill than people give it credit for. Even the things that regular Infil players such as you or myself take for granted because we've done it so long, some players can't. Myself, I've played Deception/ Infiltration since launch, and made it my main class in 1.3, which it has been since. I played it during the worst time possible to be playing the spec. And it wasn't great, I did play the more useful tank hybrid when I had to, but I made it work as well as it could given the scenario. 1.4 came and it definitely helped, I wasn't straight up mocked when people saw me in the spec, and I could contribute. Wakajinn was eventually introduced, and I became a real presence on the field. Now in 2.0, for the first time I believe that Infil/ Decep is viable and effective at its job. And my experience with the spec is incredibly obvious compared to someone who just rerolled it as the perceived OP FOTM. There are innumerable bad Shadows and Assassins. To me, the spec is now balanced. Concealment unfortunately is still not viable IMO, for various reasons. But Concealment being nonviable does not make Deception OP. It simply means that Concealment needs help to be brought up to Deception's level.

[Darthdaedric]

Saying that a class has tools in no way "proves" anything. I know what I see in warzones everyday and I see good shadows/sins take them. Shadows/sins have all the tools they need to kill sniper/slingers. There I provided the same amount of proof you did.

 

No you didn't. I listed the different tools. All you said is "they have them"

An assassin uses burst out of stealth to kill. They also need the element of surprise in order to effective.

The Gunslinger has stealth detection, sees the Assassin, uses his knockback, paints him with his bleed.

Let's say this assassin then uses force shroud to remove the bleed.

Ok, well, I guess I it's a good thing that DOTs have no cooldown. Bam, painted again, every time it wears off, use it on the stealth class.

If the assassin tries to flee, he can't, after a tick, bam, he's out of stealth and he can't use it for about a minute and a half.

So back to actually fighting him.

The assassin needs to move, a lot. If he can't, he can't kill you. Roots, flash grenade, and dirty kicks are all helpful here. If you blast him back and root him, then he's a sitting target, and you can get several hard hitting attacks on him.

You've also got a nice ability to give him a sizable armor debuff, which will make killing him even faster.

In addition, aimed shot has a bonus to it, very early on in the sharpshooter tree that makes it another knockback at close range.

 

*Edit

Oh an I forgot.

Those mauls? In addition, there's this nifty little move we (Scoundrels do too) have, Dodge.

What it does is makes it so you dodge melee and ranged attacks for like 3 seconds. It also removes hostile effects.

It may not be the EXACT same thing as Force Shroud but it's pretty close. In this case, it helps against those mauls you hate so much.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Darthdaedric

[thefishdude]

I actually i have one of each class i was playing a merc when makeb hit and that is far from balanced you clearly didn't look at my other posts and bringing this up rather than answering back to bioware ftw just shows you cannot argue concisely and well.

 

This is funny.

 

 

Yes i play a arsenal merc but i also have just rolled a sniper due to the fact that it's one of the only good ranged classes and those 10k ambushes are only one attack they arent mauls.

 

Here's the fundamental problem with your comment. Snipers are so much more than just Ambush. As a matter of fact, Ambush really isn't the primary ability for MM sniper anyway:

 

Exp Probe: 3.8k

SoS : 6.3k

Followthrough: 3.2k (instant)

(instant sniper volley)

SoS : 6.3k

Followthrough: 3.2k (instant)

 

In five GCD's, I just did 22.8k worth of damage...WITHOUT ANY CRITS.. Throw in some crits and I'm doing over 32k worth of damage. Where's your post calling for a nerf to snipers??

[Kutsmuffin]

Seems the crying is just as bad on the PVP forum now as it was 1 month after release... lol

[Zoom_VI]

Well, I have lvl 50 Sentinel and lvl 55 Marauder, I have lvl 55 Assassin, and lvl 50 Shadow.

I use both classes, and yes the Carnage/Combat Marauder with Gore and 140% Acc is a Tank Killer hitting total of around 20k-30k dmg in 4 seconds.

 

Because the tank is going to sit there and let you ravage for 4 full seconds

As a van I have two stuns or reactive shield or HtL zoom away or leap away

As a juggernaut I can choke you or backhand you or saber ward or invincible or push you or leap away or pop reflect and hit you for 30k

A sin can knock back or stun you or pop resilience (+50% def on top of base 10%) or force speed away or blackout

 

However maul is instant and on gcd

 

I run a parser in wz, and sins deal more damage to me than mauraders (55 sig isn't updated)

The only class that hits my tank harder than sins are engineering & lethality snipers (if I'm not being cleansed)

In fights involving sins the killing blow is most likely going to come from the sin

 

Also infiltration sins are way harder to kill than warriors and snipers

[stephenalandavie]

shadows do not need a rebalance all damage is much higher now it obviously will be with higher level. and i am seeing alot of classes hitting 9k+ abilities some of them Aoe so keep moaning about a class which is fine as it is.

 

As for snipers while they can do some brilliant damage they do have to be well played for the most part sometimes i can dance around a sniper spamming strikes and breach and hes oblivious lol.

[Salabim]

I play a marauder a scoundrel and shadow and a sniper. The shadow is stupidly better then the scoundrel and better then the marauder who is still a beast and the sniper.

 

They could nerf the mitgation by HALF that a sin/shadow gets coming out of stealth and it would still be far superior to a scoundrel/op.

 

Let me show just how clueless you people are.

 

What deception/infiltration sin/shadow gets in addition to greater then op/scoundrel burst.

 

1. Better then medium armor thanks to armor/defensive mitigation talents (8 percent after a few crits), while the armor difference is only 2 percent. The defensive mitigation talents work against ALL damage. The "cloth armor" statement used to justify all the other mitigation a shadow/sin gets, is an absolute lie. This class is not cloth. This class is medium armor plus.

 

2. 25 percent more mitigation then a scoundrel/op coming out of stealth (this does not include mitigation talents) for 12 seconds (use blackout which is up EVERY restealth). With a vanish this goes to 24 seconds. This is NOT a "squishy" dps coming out of stealth. This is = to a cloak of pain marauder, on a stealth class that can burst your face off and stun lock you.

 

3. Force shroud makes you immune to ALL CC. It also make you immune to things like smash/forcescream and ALL tech damage, which means a scoundrel/op can hit you for NOTHING (besides quickshot which is pretty much a waste of energy). Dodge on the other hand can't block any spell dmg from a sin/shadow, and they are hard countered by the only other stealth class (which is beyond stupid, because it makes them useless).

 

4. 30 percent less dmg taken by all aoe's. So yeah...This class has 55 percent mitigation to smash damage coming out of stealth, and this doesn't include other defensive talents, OR being able to completely block a smash with shroud.

 

5. 2 minute cooldown. Increases your ranged and melee defenses by 50% for 12 seconds.

 

6. 2 minute cooldown INSTANT heal, as opposed to a garbage heal over time that does the same thing with scoundrel/op recupertate (too bad you are dead by the time the heal is halfway done).

 

7. An execute that hits like a freakin truck due to new talents.

 

8. Utility.

 

A) Instant cast taunts/aoe taunt > heal with a 2.5 second cast time that self kites you from a target, and prevents you from restealthing (when you are TIED to your opener).

B) 6 percent damage for ALL members of the warzone on a stunned or knocked down target.

 

Counters. None for the shadow.

 

Scoundrel/op. With a heal pot many classes can beat them (I destroy them on my marauder with a undying rage/heal pot). Completely hard countered by any spec shadow/sin, making them useless in a defense/ninja situation.

 

Out of stealth damage is close, but if a scoundrel/op is not getting their opener? They aren't killing anyone worth a damn. A shadow/sin on the other hand? Can wreck your world. Low slash is a 15 second cooldown and resets maul proc (low cost/hits harder).

 

Against snipers? The knockdown on a shadow/sin is BETTER then the op/scoundrel opener. Why? Because of ballistic dampeners. The opener takes off the shield and always procs an increased damage maul, and with ballistic down? It is going to hit like a truck. In addition to that if a sniper pops dodge? Breach (automatic 3 stack on restealth) and project hit like a TRUCK. So the sniper is still dead. Oh yeah. After the knockdown maul? You can pop immunity (to knockback/flash/stun), maul them again and finish them off before immunity ends.

 

Against sorc/sage. Not tied to opener, so you can force potency (also resets ooc/stealth) project there shield off and bypass being messed from the bubble, and then push their face in.

 

Against melee. Counter the !$@% out of scoundrel/ops. Counter the !@$% out of marauders. Smash hits for nothing. You can low slash any ravage (15 second cooldown you are always going to have it). You can go immune to force scream/smash. You can cleanse ann/watchman dots (if anyone played them).

 

Better at killing healers due to spell AND melee dmg. Better at killing tanks for the same reason. Execute also is HUGE against healers.

 

LOL at the idea that if they nerfed any of the above, that people would flock to scoundrels/ops. The only thing op/scoundrel has is a roll people want nerfed. You should be more worried about people flocking to this abomination of a class, that should have never been given a knee jerk buff at the end of beta that wasn't even tested.

 

My scoundrel is USELESS compared to my shadow. I am taking his banked rank and buying crap for my shadow with legacy gear.

 

Oh yeah and this is just a comparison of it's "squishy build". 12/31/3 is a whole nother problem, and will probably be an even bigger issue when people figure it out...

 

 

This is true. Good comparison with scoundrel imo. I pvp with all the classes (mostly with 6 x 55s on pot5) and right now sin/shadow seem a lot more powerful all in all than the other classes at 55 pvp. I hate nerfs tho, so id rather see the other classes getting some love from BW, especially scrapper spec. It's like playing deception ultra light atm.

[Jayshames]

Why bump this thread?

Classes are fine where they are, the only reason classes are seeming more overpowered than others is those that are taking full advantage of bolster being utter garbage.

 

Go play 10-29 PvP and you'll see constant 8k mauls, 7k ravages, 7k force screeams, 5k grav rounds etc.

 

Nothing more to be said.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Jayshames

[Dismayven]

8k maul?!?!? *** like i mean seriously. he must have had terrible gear to only hit for 8k rofl Edited June 1, 2013 by Dismayven

[Yestreen]

If you think they are so overpowered, then how come no teams want to use them in ranked warzones?

 

The answers:

 

1. They are too easy to kill.

2. They are too easy to peel.

3. Smash marauders are better.

4. Assassin tanks are better node guards.

[stephenalandavie]

This is ridiculous that this thread is now getting attention, Since the relics change to its changed how OP shadows are which they haven't ever been in deception/infiltration spec. Also the CC breaker changes will affect this class more then most classes. The class itself in that spec was designed by the developers to be the number 1 at front loaded burst and that they are. Once the burst has gone so do they and if you can't manage to win it either means you suck or have just been outplayed.