Stop comparing Vitiate to Palpatine...

[StarSquirrel]

Precisely.

 

Even the statements by GL are simply estimations, used to gauge the relative strengths of characters. There are so many factors which can affect a confrontation between two Force Users that no hard and fast power scale can be used to pick one over another.

bold is mine for emphasis

 

What, I'm gone for like a month or two and THIS is what I have to come back to?

 

Well, got all the regulars (*nods to Beni, Aurbere, Wolf, Vent [sorry if I forgot someone]).

 

As to the quote above, yes there is in this one particular case. Sidious > all other sith (GL backed cannon)

 

In almost any other fight (save for Luke > jedi/sith and Average OT jedi > Average OR jedi) there is no scale, and so we debate using known abilities, actions, feats, and opponents to predict winners (as we do in Beni's Kaggath series and other VS series like it.)

 

To address the issue at hand. Lets put it this way, every major thing Vitiate has done was done by Sidious in 40 years and done in a superior manner. Sidious was a victim of his own success, he ruled the galaxy and had no major enemies all while manipulating the Chosen One (which came to bite him in the posterior). Vitiate survived longer due to the (likely) weaker sith who work for him and his cautiousness that Sidious never shared (and honestly had little need for till Luke showed up). Also, we have next to no evidence (or even general info) as to who and how powerful the sith Vitiate did beat where. Even if we used the standard debate method to rank power, Vitiate loses due to lack of evidence favoring him compared to the mountain of evidence supporting Sidious.

 

All in all, cannon trumps opinion and even so evidence is lacking for Vitiate.

 

If Vitiate is expanded upon as a character and can do things in the force that could counter or rival Palps, I'll conceed to a debate because it would be reasonable at that time. However as of right now Vitiate can't rival Plaps.

Edited April 19, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Spartanik]

Ahaha we got to love this geek wars. same old same old.

When people realize that doesnt matter?!

Edited April 19, 2013 by Spartanik

[Uvirith]

STOP THE COLORING OF THREADS.

I can´t read it any longer.......

[AlexDougherty]

STOP THE COLORING OF THREADS.

I can´t read it any longer.......

 

Agreed, especially greens and yellows, which some people seem to love. Bright blues and reds work for short sections, but not for the entire post, again especially not greens and yellows.

Edited April 19, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Doctoglethorpe]

Ahaha we got to love this geek wars. same old same old.

When people realize that doesnt matter?!

 

Why are you here then?

[Aurbere]

Agreed, especially greens and yellows, which some people seem to love. Bright blues and reds work for short sections, but not for the entire post, again especially not greens and yellows.

 

Ain't nothing wrong with my green!

[Beniboybling]

What I see here that you guys have a very short-sighted view about everything. First thing, being the most powerful doesn't neccessary mean more succesful nor that you are unbeatable. Second, some of GL statements are pretty much subjective. Like "Vader would have been more powerful than Sidious if he was not defeated by Obi-Wan. With all his injuries, he has 80% (if I'm not mistaken) of Sidious's power." What the hell is 80% of Palpatine's power? To gain or lose 1% what the guy have to do? That is pretty much subjective for me.

Understand this. If the thread Wolf had posted had said something like 'Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord because its G-Canon' then I might accept this statement as agreeable.

 

However what Wolf has done, and kudos to him for doing so, if proving why Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord by giving countless examples of his exemplary feats which reflect his immense power in the Force. It is at this point that it loses subjectivity, and becomes objective, unless you are a selective reader or have vision problems.

mine was an old lady that showed me the true nature of the force

she wasn't the most powerful but her wisdom was pure in its nature{ the force is a will of its own we do not wield it it wields us }

Well said sir, have a cookie /(^ - ^)> O

[Beniboybling]

STOP THE COLORING OF THREADS.

I can´t read it any longer.......

Never!

[AlyxDinas]

Let people believe what they want.

 

For instance, what's Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi? Are those brands of delicious, Jedi made gum? For me they certainly are because they definitely aren't book series written by terrible authors with no care for the setting they were working in. Nope. Not at all. Just amazing brands of zebra striped gum.

[Selenial]

Ain't nothing wrong with my green!

 

They didn't mention my purple at all

Tbh, it's like a signature, everyone has their own unique colour, on the Star Wars discussions anyway (I don't use purple outside of this section)

Only person who has the same colour as another is rayla/ladykulvax and in all fairness, she had cyan first, she just switches

[Swissbob]

 

Vitiate survived longer due to the (likely) weaker sith who work for him and his cautiousness that Sidious never shared (and honestly had little need for till Luke showed up). Also, we have next to no evidence (or even general info) as to who and how powerful the sith Vitiate did beat where. Even if we used the standard debate method to rank power, Vitiate loses due to lack of evidence favoring him compared to the mountain of evidence supporting Sidious.

 

 

Do you think it is easier to manage 1 Vader, or hundreds or even thousands of Sith!? We all know Vader is powerful, and had ambitions to seize the Throne of Emperor... But so did pretty much every Sith that was under Vitiate's rule. In a flash of pure force power, Vitiate incinerated the entire Dark Council in a matter of seconds.

 

You say there is a lack of evidence compared to the mountain of evidence Sidious has, and I would agree that Sidious has more EU describing his combat feats... but lets take a look at why this is.

 

1) He's been around for 30+ years, the EU on him is perhaps the largest EU any character has ever. Vitiate has been around for about 3-5 years (if we're being generous).

 

However, the better reason there is a lack of show for his Combat prowess is because

 

2) Vitiate was able to effectively avoid combat for his thousand years, and the few times he did face combat, the fights lasted so short (matter of seconds) there there isn't much room for a list of long feats. The Emperor, in seconds, defeated not only the entire Dark Council united against him, but also Revan, Malak, and then later Revan and Meetra.

 

The feat of avoiding combat itself for thousands of years while ruling an entire Empire of Sith is nothing to be laughed at or ignored. In Sidious' short 40 year reign he had many challenges to his power. In Vitiate's 1300 reign he had only a few... and most by Jedi. Do you think it's an easier feat to oppress, scare off, and effectively obtain obedience to a small Empire of Sith, or a large empire of normal, non-forcewielding people? At the very lest, they're close... but regardless, Vitiate held his for 1300 years, about 40 times as long as Palpatines.

 

Anyway, the argument that he did everything in 40 years that Vitiate did in 1300 is silly. Darth Bane's new Sith Rule and Order and plot is what set in place the events in the beginning. For almost a thousand years Sith had been working on this plot, and Sidious was just the one who completed it. (Props to him, but he does not get ALL the credit... some would even argue not the majority of the credit.)

 

And even if Sidious single-handily took down the entire Galaxy republic with the help of no plots and work besides his own... your statement is still not true. It's such a huge generalizing blanket statement that is of course, not correct about everything.

 

However what Wolf has done, and kudos to him for doing so, if proving why Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord by giving countless examples of his exemplary feats which reflect his immense power in the Force. It is at this point that it loses subjectivity, and becomes objective, unless you are a selective reader or have vision problems.

 

No. I've said it before I'll say it again. This list is not proof, it's not the be-all-end-all of the debate, it doesn't automatically put the debate to rest. I'll tell you why, but I'd like to comment that you've already labeled everyone who opposes your view as either a selective reader or has vision problems which is just name-calling and does not progress the debate. It's not an argument, just a provocation.

 

Anyway, no. It does not prove you are right. What he has done is assembled an awesome list of impressive evidence... But that does not put the debate to rest. That evidence is useless unless we debate it. Just saying:

 

"That's it! We're done! We win! Anyone who disagrees with us has vision problems!"

 

Does nothing to progress the debate in your favor. The post above that I'm responding as well, actually did progress the debate.

 

I'd also like to remind anybody reading that I'm not arguing that Vitiate is a better Sith than Palpatine, I'm just trying to even it out (I think they are very close in terms of who's "better", I don't think it's a landslide one way) and let the debate continue.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Swissbob

[Beniboybling]

No. I've said it before I'll say it again. This list is not proof, it's not the be-all-end-all of the debate, it doesn't automatically put the debate to rest. I'll tell you why, but I'd like to comment that you've already labeled everyone who opposes your view as either a selective reader or has vision problems which is just name-calling and does not progress the debate. It's not an argument, just a provocation.

 

Anyway, no. It does not prove you are right. What he has done is assembled an awesome list of impressive evidence... But that does not put the debate to rest. That evidence is useless unless we debate it, and by just saying:

 

"That's it! We're done! We win! Anyone who disagrees with us has vision problems!"

 

Does nothing to progress the debate in your favor. The post above that I'm responding as well, actually did progress the debate.

 

I'd also like to remind anybody reading that I'm not arguing that Vitiate is a better Sith than Palpatine, I'm just trying to even it out and let the debate continue.

You've misunderstood me. I am saying that what Wolf has provided are objective facts. It is a fact that Sidious can vaporise people with lightning, it is a fact that Sidious can destroy planets with Force storms. It is a fact that Sidious went head to head with some of the most powerful Jedi of his age and arguably in history, and defeated them, it is a fact that Sidious could read the minds of people light-years away. These are objective, not subjective facts - and it is impossible to refute them unless you have vision problems or are a selective reader.

 

Notice the format of Wolf's thread.

 

He begins with quotes, backing up his statement that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history and more powerful than Vitiate. He then continues to give examples of various feats of immense power that ratify this statement, I'd say thats a good argument, and not by any means 'short-sighted'. This is my point.

 

On the other hand, the points made to the contrary have been either 'just because' arguments or "the Emperor lived for a very long time and ruled an big empire for a very long time." Not one person, not one gosh darn person (apart from you Swissbob, and for that well done) has actually come to this thread, activated their gosh darn brain cells and said something to the effect of: "Vitiate is more powerful because he did X/was skilled in X." NOT. ONE.

 

So I'll say it again, how is this 'debate' - if it can even be called that - nothing other that a smack down, WTFpwn, ROFLstomp, asswhooping victory for Sidious? When no valid arguments have been made to the contrary. HOW?!

 

Its a rhetorical question pal, because the only thing that has being flying around this thread is trolling, personal attacks, irrelevant statements and pure stupidity. So really Sidious wins solely out of principle.

 

Apologies for the rant, and I'm sure I've rattled some cages and I apologise in advance if I've offended you, but it had to be said.

 

P.S. I again thankyou Swissbob for being the only one in 'opposition' to approach this argument with a logical and clear head. Let you be an example to the rest.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Jenzali]

Sidious is the most powerful because George Lucas said so.

[Beniboybling]

Sidious is the most powerful because George Lucas said so.

Its funny, because your probably going to get bashed for saying that. Yet its by far the most logical of arguments made on this thread so far.

[marcelo_sdk]

You've misunderstood me. I am saying that what Wolf has provided are objective facts. It is a fact that Sidious can vaporise people with lightning, it is a fact that Sidious can destroy planets with Force storms. It is a fact that Sidious went head to head with some of the most powerful Jedi of his age and arguably in history, and defeated them, it is a fact that Sidious could read the minds of people light-years away. These are objective, not subjective facts - and it is impossible to refute them unless you have vision problems or are a selective reader.

 

Notice the format of Wolf's thread.

 

He begins with quotes, backing up his statement that Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history and more powerful than Vitiate. He then continues to give examples of various feats of immense power that ratify this statement, I'd say thats a good argument, and not by any means 'short-sighted'. This is my point.

 

On the other hand, the points made to the contrary have been either 'just because' arguments or "the Emperor lived for a very long time and ruled an big empire for a very long time." Not one person, not one gosh darn person (apart from you Swissbob, and for that well done) has actually come to this thread, activated their gosh darn brain cells and said something to the effect of: "Vitiate is more powerful because he did X/was skilled in X." NOT. ONE.

 

So I'll say it again, how is this 'debate' - if it can even be called that - nothing other that a smack down, WTFpwn, ROFLstomp, asswhooping victory for Sidious? When no valid arguments have been made to the contrary. HOW?!

 

Well my friend, you are very wrong, in fact I was one of the firsts that come and tried to argue with Palpatine's supporters, but what happens is not that we present no valid arguments, is that you prefer to ignore them for lack of response. So the only who are truly not bringing anything to the debate is you.

 

I listed all of his feats, and you guys come with responses like "he was defeated by a single Jedi Knight, that's why he's weaker", how can I argue with such logic?

[Beniboybling]

Well my friend, you are very wrong, in fact I was one of the firsts that come and tried to argue with Palpatine's supporters, but what happens is not that we present no valid arguments, is that you prefer to ignore them for lack of response. So the only who are truly not bringing anything to the debate is you.

 

I listed all of his feats, and you guys come with responses like "he was defeated by a single Jedi Knight, that's why he's weaker", how can I argue with such logic?

Rest assured that I read through the entire post to verify what I suspected, and just read through it again. All I could find was the following.

Lol Wolfinin, what brought this sudden fury to your heart?

 

But seriously, all you said about Sidious is true, he is a Black Hole of the Dark Side, as stated by Dooku. But we all know that some EU materials like to overpower some characters, especially the ones from the movies. Sidious is not unbeatable, and the statement "most powerful Sith Lord of all times", wich is taken as fact, doesn't reffer only to his force powers.

 

As for Vitiate, I agree that Sidious is stronger, but you underestimate him a lot. And he achieved some objectives who Sidious was not even close to. He lived for more than 1300 years (for now), as Sidious lived for what, 93 if we consider the death of his last clone body as his final death. We know immortality was the main goal of almost all Sith Lords, Palptine especially. So in this matter, Vitiate was far more succesful.

 

And Palpatine, as near brought the Jedi and the Republic to an end, ruled an Empire who lasted for 3 decades (again, considering his final death at 11ABY). Vitiate ruled more than mileenia, and we don't know when his rule truly ended.

 

So, we don't have to throw Vitiate to trash just to praise Sidious. Both were great, powerful and accomplished amazing things. Period.

Firstly I'm not sure why I would argue with this in the first place, since I agree with most of what you said. And Secondly, they only 'feat' you listed was that he lived a long time. As I stated in the post you quoted, which isn't exactly a valid argument as Sidious could have lived for just as long if he had not been killed. And for the record, my first response was this, which responds to one of your points fairly directly. In which I attempted to address the two only arguments made by Vitiate supporters:

STOP! *lifts an upraised palm to emphasis the point*

 

Not but really, great post Wolf. I've been very much in need for a go to source for Sidious' feats and evidence of his power. As some people just don't want to believe it.

 

I only see two arguments against you flopping about on this thread, so I shall address both.

 

Vitiate ruled a powerful Empire for 1,300 years: In the shadows, which constituted a tiny portion of the galaxy, incomparable to the size of Sidious' galactic empire. He always remained in control and one step ahead of his rivals yes, but didn't Sidious also? The manner in which he seems to be able to read Vader's mind and how he has only once been caught of guard suggests so. In a sentence

. However, when Vitiate finally revealed his Empire and fought the Republic, he was struck down by a lone Jedi Knight and is now deceased. Yes, deceased. The Emperor was killed by the Hero of Tython, of whose power is dwarfed by Sidious'.

 

Vitiate lived for 1,300 years: These arguments aren't exactly diverse are they? Well guess what bub, Sidious could have lived for 1,300 years as well: essence transfer.

 

But how about I summarise my arguments with

Seemed logical enough to me. (I even provided a song!) As did my later point. Admittedly it wasn't elaborated on but by that point I had grown tired of the debate and somewhat frustrated as nobody seemed to acknolwedge my points. But if your feeling the same frustration, I'll elaborate.

 

Vitiate was defeating by the Hero of Tython, a powerful Jedi yes but arguably not powerful enough to defeat Sidious. I for one already see flaws in this argument, and could argue against it right now. But to avoid this 'debate' falling into further ridicule, I won't.

 

Again, I did not mean to offend... berate perhaps.

[xxwolfbloodxx]

Sidious is the most powerful because George Lucas said so.

 

Did George Lucas say this before or after Vitiate was created?

[xxwolfbloodxx]

STOP! . However, when Vitiate finally revealed his Empire and fought the Republic, he was struck down by a lone Jedi Knight and is now deceased. Yes, deceased. The Emperor was killed by the Hero of Tython, of whose power is dwarfed by Sidious'.

 

Vitiate lived for 1,300 years: These arguments aren't exactly diverse are they? Well guess what bub, Sidious could have lived for 1,300 years as well: essence transfer.

 

But how about I summarise my arguments with

 

The JK killed the voice not the real Vitiate. If you check wookiepedia and the Revan novel it says that VItate's was a sith pure blood and the body that the JK kills is human.

Also it is not the fact that Vitate lived for 1,300 years its the fact that he ruled for 1300 years in an empire that had thousands and thousands of sith lords trained form childhood to becaome as poweerful as possible.

[ChrisTheCreator]

Vitiate wins hands down... Edited April 19, 2013 by ChrisTheCreator

[marcelo_sdk]

I was not offended at all Beniboybling, as for we all take this things serious, we are to have fun, so if I come here to get angry, there's no point.

 

Anyway, I just replied cause you generalized the things. I know a lot, probably most, of Vitiate's supporters are holding to the death to his life-span. And as said in the topic you quoted, I'm here not to prove that Vitiate is a better Sith than Palpatine, wich I'm not sure if he is. Like you, I just came here do don't let the debate level drop to petty statements like so may we already saw.

 

But I must apologize, for the way I wrote it kind looked like I was offended, I was too harsh. I really forget about your post, don't know how, especially with the video thing.

 

But in a general matter for the "Star Wars Discussion" session of the forum, people should stiop creating this random versus topics. If you wanna do it, do something organized like Aurbere's BattleZone series, not a random topic out of nowhere who don't even have the intentio to create a debate, just to summarize an opinion.

[Doctoglethorpe]

Just to be a broken record, nobody can say Vitiate is the more powerful sith and simultaniously have any respect at all for the thousand year Rule of Two. To claim Sidious was even only equal to any Sith of this era is to claim the Rule of Two accomplished nothing during a millennium of research and training.

 

Thats all I have to say on this subject anymore. Debating the merits of their actual depicted accomplishments is just arbitrary.

[Jenzali]

Just to be a broken record, nobody can say Vitiate is the more powerful sith and simultaniously have any respect at all for the thousand year Rule of Two. To claim Sidious was even only equal to any Sith of this era is to claim the Rule of Two accomplished nothing during a millennium of research and training.

 

Thats all I have to say on this subject anymore. Debating the merits of their actual depicted accomplishments is just arbitrary.

 

Exactly. Arguing in favor of Vitiate is like going up to George Lucas and telling him that he's wrong in his own universe. Ignoring G-canon in favor of C-canon. No matter how you try to argue it, you are factually wrong because G-canon is the absolute.

 

As much as I love this game and this setting, all of it is still C-canon. So as long as Lucas maintains that Sidious was the most powerful Sith of all time, and that he is the culmination of the most powerful Sith Order of all time (the Banite Order, Rule of Two) then those are the facts.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Jenzali

[Doctoglethorpe]

Its not even about levels of canon really. Most of what the RoT accomplished is tecnically C-Cannon. To simply respect that it happened and that the accomplishments it has been claimed to have are not lies, one must accept that sith at least towards the end of its existence, namely Palpatine, who embodied the culmination of the orders every advancement over 1000 years, would intrinsically be beyond anything Sith who lived before the Rule of Two had reached.

 

To quote the novelization of Ep3.

 

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

The had become new. While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...

 

Sidious was an entirely new tier of Sith compared to the ones running around in the Old Republic days.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Doctoglethorpe

[AnonJoen]

And the endless discussion continues... you know, I think it's rather an opinion than a fact. Another way to look at it, is what palpatine was able to do in his 'normal life span' compared to vitiate who lived over 1300 years.

[Swissbob]

Just to be a broken record, nobody can say Vitiate is the more powerful sith and simultaniously have any respect at all for the thousand year Rule of Two. To claim Sidious was even only equal to any Sith of this era is to claim the Rule of Two accomplished nothing during a millennium of research and training.

 

Thats all I have to say on this subject anymore. Debating the merits of their actual depicted accomplishments is just arbitrary.

 

While agree that because of the Rule of Two, Sidious is more powerful, that's not how I (and I think most of us) are judging them.

 

Just like you wouldn't say Napoleon is a better commander because his army would kill Alexander the Great's, you can't say Sidious is a better Sith because he would win in a one on one battle.

 

We compare them to what they accomplished in their own setting and time, not necessarily if they met here and now, who would win a one-on-one duel.

 

And the endless discussion continues... you know, I think it's rather an opinion than a fact. .

 

I agree, It definitely is.

 

And I am very happy that the discussion is continuing.

 

 

Oh, and Beniboybling, I'll respond to you, don't worry. It's late though... I'll do it in the morning.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Swissbob