lol bolster

[Blasterproof]

You missed the PVP-only part in my post, didn't you?

 

All those things you did were also getting some of the best PVE gear for that level. Besides the expertise power crystals, every mod you got and every augment you got also made your PVE effectiveness better.

 

So yes, there was a grind for gear at lower levels. But what you get was as effective in PVE as it was in PVP.

 

Also, there is still a gear grind at higher levels today. Conqueror is, reports say, still better in most slots than PVE gear is. Only debate using actual tests and numbers I see suggests that hilts and barrels are better when using PVE versions.

 

You are missing the point I'm afraid. Is Black Hole obsolete? No. Is Campaign? Dreadguard? Nope. All that gear is still available, although it has become lower tiered. But even that isn't the point trying to be made here by those of us who have dedicated pvp toons. The point is that it's not WH/EWH is becoming lower tiered, it's that it is now GARBAGE. The bolster system released with 2.0 made playing naked better.

 

This new patch makes WH/EWH better than playing naked. That's the tier it operates at now. Better than Naked. Thus, new MMO slang is born. First there was "afk", followed closely by woot, brt, bbl, otw, dps, dots, spank, etc... and now we have "btn."

 

Dude 1: "Hey bro, how's that new light saber?"

Dude 2: "Meh. Btn."

 

It's not that there are two new tiers of PVP gear to grind for now. No one is upset about that. We want that gear and despite this debacle, we are going after it. It's that now, after hundreds of hours, the gear WE HAD to grind for the new tier is BTN. It's not better than level 33 green gear, it's not better than the rank 25 common drops, or the craftable PVE 28's. It's BTN. Even though the stats on the Elite War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages read as it being STILL the BiS relic for DPS, it is suddenly, immediately worthless.

 

And some of us, who are pure pvp'ers, are a little miffed because that's the gear we have. And we regret not picking up and equipping the green drops in our run through Makeb, because we would be much better off than we are now.

 

If the goal of the PVP patches were to level the playing field, then 2.0 and this most recent patch failed. The playing field is no longer level. There is a significant slope to the field, and it is all uphill if you are a dedicated pvp'er, because your gear has been rendered BTN. The new patch rewards those non-pvp focused toons and severely penalizes the pvp-focused toons.

[Arutar]

You are missing the point I'm afraid. Is Black Hole obsolete? No. Is Campaign? Dreadguard? Nope. All that gear is still available, although it has become lower tiered. But even that isn't the point trying to be made here by those of us who have dedicated pvp toons. The point is that it's not WH/EWH is becoming lower tiered, it's that it is now GARBAGE. The bolster system released with 2.0 made playing naked better.

 

This new patch makes WH/EWH better than playing naked. That's the tier it operates at now. Better than Naked. Thus, new MMO slang is born. First there was "afk", followed closely by woot, brt, bbl, otw, dps, dots, spank, etc... and now we have "btn." [...]

 

It's not that there are two new tiers of PVP gear to grind for now. No one is upset about that. We want that gear and despite this debacle, we are going after it. It's that now, after hundreds of hours, the gear WE HAD to grind for the new tier is BTN. It's not better than level 33 green gear, it's not better than the rank 25 common drops, or the craftable PVE 28's. It's BTN. [...]

 

If the goal of the PVP patches were to level the playing field, then 2.0 and this most recent patch failed. The playing field is no longer level. There is a significant slope to the field, and it is all uphill if you are a dedicated pvp'er, because your gear has been rendered BTN. The new patch rewards those non-pvp focused toons and severely penalizes the pvp-focused toons.

 

Well put. I cannot agree more.

[Devlonir]

You are missing the point I'm afraid. Is Black Hole obsolete? No. Is Campaign? Dreadguard? Nope. All that gear is still available, although it has become lower tiered. But even that isn't the point trying to be made here by those of us who have dedicated pvp toons. The point is that it's not WH/EWH is becoming lower tiered, it's that it is now GARBAGE. The bolster system released with 2.0 made playing naked better.

 

This new patch makes WH/EWH better than playing naked. That's the tier it operates at now. Better than Naked. Thus, new MMO slang is born. First there was "afk", followed closely by woot, brt, bbl, otw, dps, dots, spank, etc... and now we have "btn."

 

Dude 1: "Hey bro, how's that new light saber?"

Dude 2: "Meh. Btn."

 

It's not that there are two new tiers of PVP gear to grind for now. No one is upset about that. We want that gear and despite this debacle, we are going after it. It's that now, after hundreds of hours, the gear WE HAD to grind for the new tier is BTN. It's not better than level 33 green gear, it's not better than the rank 25 common drops, or the craftable PVE 28's. It's BTN. Even though the stats on the Elite War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages read as it being STILL the BiS relic for DPS, it is suddenly, immediately worthless.

 

And some of us, who are pure pvp'ers, are a little miffed because that's the gear we have. And we regret not picking up and equipping the green drops in our run through Makeb, because we would be much better off than we are now.

 

If the goal of the PVP patches were to level the playing field, then 2.0 and this most recent patch failed. The playing field is no longer level. There is a significant slope to the field, and it is all uphill if you are a dedicated pvp'er, because your gear has been rendered BTN. The new patch rewards those non-pvp focused toons and severely penalizes the pvp-focused toons.

 

Funny..

 

The green drops you get in Makeb are not better than the WH/EWH gear you now have for PVP. It gets bolstered in a similar manner, and stats that are actually better on WH/EWH than they are on Partisan will stay better. So actually.. with Bolster.. WH/EWH is better than the greens you pick up on Makeb. Both in the 30-54 bracket as well as in 55+.

 

So, you have no point still.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Devlonir

[Arutar]

Funny..

 

The green drops you get in Makeb are not better than the WH/EWH gear you now have for PVP.

 

So, you have no point still.

 

Well, for some at least lvl 33 green implants still perform better than WH/EWH gear:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=627118

 

So your point was again?

[_Zhatan_]

The truth after the demise of Warhero/Elite warhero is a 20% of underperformance from a day to other.

 

2200 expertise is now 1800.

 

The decent way for do things for any normal and well manged mmo is keep the old gear as a first step to get the new gear, not wipe the entire system.

 

Elite warhero should not be worst than Recruit was during previous 2.0.

at this moment Elite Warhero players are the dudes who entered in the warzones with Rakata and everybody complained about...

 

This system is just plain stupid.

-

Vanquisher gear is useless, as it is atm. Purchasable at 55 .

 

Vanquisher should be adquired as gear for level 50's and should have same stats than Elite Warhero. as previous step to Conqueror.

 

The gearing path should be:

 

-10-49 Comendation grind / bolster for PVE gear .

-50-54 Vanquisher (For fresh 50's and not full equiped dudes) /Elite Warhero (same stats) for dudes who actually spent the last year doing PVP in this silly game.

-55 Conqueror.

 

All the griefing will gone, all the PVP gearing mess will gone.

 

Making pvp gear purchasable only at 55 is a HUGE MISTAKE.

[Devlonir]

Well, for some at least lvl 33 green implants still perform better than WH/EWH gear:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=627118

 

So your point was again?

 

My point was that you lied about 'random green drops from Makeb'.

 

This is very specificly using very low level gear on max level. Yes, it's an issue, but it's not a major issue.

 

Also, did you notice he also lost stats doing that? Or did you just look at main + end and though "This sux!"

 

It's not perfect, it has to be tweaked further. But it's no reason to remove bolster entirely. Especially because full Partisan still outperforms this. And full partisan with a bit of Conqueror (something you'll get when grinding Partisan itself as well) outperforms it even more.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Devlonir

[Devlonir]

The truth after the demise of Warhero/Elite warhero is a 20% of underperformance from a day to other.

 

2200 expertise is now 1800.

Funny how you missed that while losing 300 expertise, you gained 2200 expertise worth of item budget in all your other stats.

 

A huge tunnel vision there.

[Darkshadz]

Wait a minute.... so if BW kept the expertise on WH/EWH set, we would have a fighting chance against lvl 55 gankers wearing the full partisan/conqueror set? I would be mad if the top tier pvp sets were hardly better than the obsolete lvl 50 ones.

[Arutar]

My point was that you lied about 'random green drops from Makeb'.

 

This is very specificly using very low level gear on max level. Yes, it's an issue, but it's not a major issue.

 

Thanks for accusing me of lying though I did not say anything about Makeb drops.

 

Also, do you really consider that lvl 33 greens being possibly better than WH/EWH is a better situtation than lvl 51-55 greens being better than WH/EWH? Really?

[Devlonir]

Thanks for accusing me of lying though I did not say anything about Makeb drops.

Let me see..

Well put. I cannot agree more.

You said about Blasterproof when he said, among other things:

And some of us, who are pure pvp'ers, are a little miffed because that's the gear we have. And we regret not picking up and equipping the green drops in our run through Makeb, because we would be much better off than we are now.

So technically, maybe you did not do the actual lying yourself, but you did agree with a lie.

 

Also, do you really consider that lvl 33 greens being possibly better than WH/EWH is a better situtation than lvl 51-55 greens being better than WH/EWH? Really?

No I'm not, and thanks for misreading my words.

 

I agree it is an issue that using lvl 33 greens being possibly better than endgame gear. But, newsflash, WH/EWH isnt endgame anymore, it's levelling gear now. And in that aspect: All PVP performance below endgame level PVP gear should basicly be equal, that is the goal of Bolster. The goal is to also remove twinks from lower brackets. If WH/EWH is about as good or possibly a little bit worse than level 33 green gear it's actually a good thing. Because that level 33 that queues for the same bracket will only have that level 33 green gear, and not all the tricks and talents you have to boost your performance.

 

I would consider it a bug if level 33 gear worn by higher level people has better performance than level appropriate gear though. But that's also on the level of 'tweaking the numbers' and not a, specifically, broken issue.

 

Now, removing augments boosting stats.. thats a broken issue. Endgame PVE gear being better for PVP than endgame PVP gear, that's a broken issue. Two different levelling gear sets having different results in stats when boosted, is at best, a minor issue.

[_Zhatan_]

Funny how you missed that while losing 300 expertise, you gained 2200 expertise worth of item budget in all your other stats.

 

A huge tunnel vision there.

 

I think you didnt test it as i did for a whole day...the stats increase are : +2k hitpoints +10 damage +20 damage bonus ....and 6% less armour vs player, 6% less damage vs players So i gain about 30 damage for extra pve stats and lost 120 from expertise.

 

Dude your lack of clue is disturbing.

[itsluck]

Ill be 100% ok with bolster if they add it to pve, but otherwise how fair is that? if hardcore PvErs can now walk into a WZ with no pvp gear and get good buffs, then why cant hardcore Pvpers with no PvE gear go run some of the hardest ops and hms? im all for a more even pvp, but some sort of gap needs to exsist or there is no real gear grind. This gap doesnt need to be as big as EWH vs. recruit was and i hope it isnt, but again if the pvp gear barely helps, why grind it. For any PvErs that disagree, id love to see bolster added to hms or ops and see how much fun your gear grind and experiences are

 

I also couldnt care less about losing my full EWH ive heard some, its progression an should be expected by every mmo player. i dont see the big deal there

[painterwhit]

You missed the PVP-only part in my post, didn't you?

 

All those things you did were also getting some of the best PVE gear for that level. Besides the expertise power crystals, every mod you got and every augment you got also made your PVE effectiveness better.

 

So yes, there was a grind for gear at lower levels. But what you get was as effective in PVE as it was in PVP.

 

Also, there is still a gear grind at higher levels today. Conqueror is, reports say, still better in most slots than PVE gear is. Only debate using actual tests and numbers I see suggests that hilts and barrels are better when using PVE versions.

 

My point was that you and others are trying to tell people that there is no gear grind below max level for PvP, and basically told him to prove it....I did. Are you now reversing that statement?

 

....and who cares about that stuff making it better for PvE? A lot of people have toons they ONLY level in wzs with...you can only grind the SAME PvE content so many times before you just don't want to do it anymore.

 

My point is this - bolster was FINE pre-2.0. You just had to learn HOW to be competitive. The only thing this new bolster is good for is the fact that I'll probably save a whole lot of creds not having to keep my toons in the best gear possible...crew skills get expensive

Edited April 17, 2013 by painterwhit

[Kovaos]

My point is this - bolster was FINE pre-2.0. You just had to learn HOW to be competitive. The only thing this new bolster is good for is the fact that I'll probably save a whole lot of creds not having to keep my toons in the best gear possible...crew skills get expensive

 

^QFT. Well said.

[Arutar]

So technically, maybe you did not do the actual lying yourself, but you did agree with a lie.

 

Err, no.

 

Please reread the part I quoted and agreed to. It says nothing about Makeb drops.

 

So technically, maybe you should be more careful before you wrongly accuse people of lying. Because otherwise, YOU are the liar. I mean technically, maybe...

[EricMusco]

One of the first things we want to address are concerns about how our change has affected players in WH and EWH in the open world. The simple explanation is that due to the way our itemization works, we had to make the choice that WH gear would either be good in open world (and not viable in Warzones) or viable in Warzones (but lacked Expertise in open world situations). We decided that since a large majority of the PvP that occurs in our game and the place where players worked to receive the gear is Warzones, that we would side with Warzones overall.

 

We completely understand that the desire from everyone would be that WH/EWH was viable in both open world PvP and Warzones, but unfortunately that just was not a possibility in this case.

 

-eric

[Pistols]

One of the first things we want to address are concerns about how our change has affected players in WH and EWH in the open world. The simple explanation is that due to the way our itemization works, we had to make the choice that WH gear would either be good in open world (and not viable in Warzones) or viable in Warzones (but lacked Expertise in open world situations). We decided that since a large majority of the PvP that occurs in our game and the place where players worked to receive the gear is Warzones, that we would side with Warzones overall.

 

We completely understand that the desire from everyone would be that WH/EWH was viable in both open world PvP and Warzones, but unfortunately that just was not a possibility in this case.

 

-eric

 

Open World PvP wouldn't be so dead, if the developers wouldn't kick it in the groin so much.

 

At this point, I don't even see the reason to label servers as PvE or PvP.

 

The bolster change to 55 PvP is garbage; I don't see how running off players from the game is viable.

 

I know you're only the messenger here Eric, but the PvP atm is terrible, and I have no issues blaming it on that very bad development team.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Pistols

[madcappah]

One of the first things we want to address are concerns about how our change has affected players in WH and EWH in the open world. The simple explanation is that due to the way our itemization works, we had to make the choice that WH gear would either be good in open world (and not viable in Warzones) or viable in Warzones (but lacked Expertise in open world situations). We decided that since a large majority of the PvP that occurs in our game and the place where players worked to receive the gear is Warzones, that we would side with Warzones overall.

 

We completely understand that the desire from everyone would be that WH/EWH was viable in both open world PvP and Warzones, but unfortunately that just was not a possibility in this case.

 

-eric

 

Unacceptable.

[Aetideus]

One of the first things we want to address are concerns about how our change has affected players in WH and EWH in the open world. The simple explanation is that due to the way our itemization works, we had to make the choice that WH gear would either be good in open world (and not viable in Warzones) or viable in Warzones (but lacked Expertise in open world situations). We decided that since a large majority of the PvP that occurs in our game and the place where players worked to receive the gear is Warzones, that we would side with Warzones overall.

 

We completely understand that the desire from everyone would be that WH/EWH was viable in both open world PvP and Warzones, but unfortunately that just was not a possibility in this case.

 

-eric

 

Look, I don't understand how all those issues did not occurred to you 2 months before and you had to roll that bolster out now.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Aetideus

[grandmofftarkin]

One of the first things we want to address are concerns about how our change has affected players in WH and EWH in the open world. The simple explanation is that due to the way our itemization works, we had to make the choice that WH gear would either be good in open world (and not viable in Warzones) or viable in Warzones (but lacked Expertise in open world situations). We decided that since a large majority of the PvP that occurs in our game and the place where players worked to receive the gear is Warzones, that we would side with Warzones overall.

 

We completely understand that the desire from everyone would be that WH/EWH was viable in both open world PvP and Warzones, but unfortunately that just was not a possibility in this case.

 

-eric

 

 

It sounds like your itemization system is broken then. So go fix that.

 

It seems strange that a choice had to be made to screw PvP armor sets for either WZ's or Open PvP. It sounded like the main problem that was trying to be solved was gimped PvErs' and newcomers in PvP. Why not just bolster those PvE armors to just below entry or low-mid level PvP armor? Why did the solution to the PvErs' issue require taking away something from PvPers?

[TUXs]

Open World PvP wouldn't be so dead, if the developers wouldn't kick it in the groin so much.

 

At this point, I don't even see the reason to label servers as PvE or PvP.

 

The bolster change to 55 PvP is garbage; I don't see how running off players from the game is viable.

 

I know you're only the messenger here Eric, but the PvP atm is terrible, and I have no issues blaming it on that very bad development team.

 

Absolutely true!!!

 

Eric, this is the worst possible "solution" you guys could have come up with.

 

I would suggest you give every player, 1-55, an innate "expertise" (something like 1500+Valor level) so that geared players aren't destroying ungeared players on Makeb. Right now, the difference between a 55 in Expertise gear and a 55 without it, is MASSIVE! In the past, we had to choose PvE gear for our questing in OW areas or Expertise gear if we thought we'd encounter PvP. Prior to this weeks debacle, we had a choice. You haven't eliminated the gear gap Eric, you made it more prolific.

[LarryRow]

...

We completely understand that the desire from everyone would be that WH/EWH was viable in both open world PvP and Warzones, but unfortunately that just was not a possibility in this case.

 

-eric

 

Yeah, one of the first things that occurred to me when I saw that my pvp gear had been transformed into pve gear was the effect that would have on open world encounters. But then I remembered that for a long time we had only been using expertise gear at max level anyway.

 

In other words, so what if a 55 with a ton of expertise can gank a level 52 with none? That is really nothing new (think 1.7 level 50 versus level 47), and I think you made the right call.

 

Glad to see the updates; just keep honing Bolster (I am assuming this is a front-burner issue, ahem) so it actually works as intended and I think most will come around.

[FluffyMcNutter]

One of the first things we want to address are concerns about how our change has affected players in WH and EWH in the open world. The simple explanation is that due to the way our itemization works, we had to make the choice that WH gear would either be good in open world (and not viable in Warzones) or viable in Warzones (but lacked Expertise in open world situations). We decided that since a large majority of the PvP that occurs in our game and the place where players worked to receive the gear is Warzones, that we would side with Warzones overall.

 

We completely understand that the desire from everyone would be that WH/EWH was viable in both open world PvP and Warzones, but unfortunately that just was not a possibility in this case.

 

-eric

 

Why put updates on a test server when you don't fix the problems reported by your player base. I am glad I only paid 10 bucks for the cluster F of an expansion. Just sad this is how Bioware conducts business. They have been pushing incomplete and buggy updates since 1.2 and they wonder why they cant maintain customers. You should never take away anything from your subscribers like gear ops, or anything else. An expansion should add content add gear. Bioware your player base is angry because you took things away like expertise on WH and EWH gear. I was looking forward to leveling on Makeb with my PVP toon but you made my pvp gear worse then my pve gear. Bad business, incompetent design team and utter inability release a completed playable product.

 

THANK YOU BIOWARE!

[LarryRow]

Open World PvP wouldn't be so dead, if the developers wouldn't kick it in the groin so much.

 

At this point, I don't even see the reason to label servers as PvE or PvP.

 

Were you having a lot of open world battles and events while you were leveling to max level, or did you wait until max level and getting your endgame pvp gear to do that?

 

I think people are just having trouble letting go of their now-obsolete level 50 gear (sweet lemon). Or maybe the problem is that, while WH and EWH gear is obsolete, the level 50 PvE gear is still pretty viable for a lot of level 55 content (sour grapes).

[Pistols]

Were you having a lot of open world battles and events while you were leveling to max level, or did you wait until max level and getting your endgame pvp gear to do that?

 

I think people are just having trouble letting go of their now-obsolete level 50 gear (sweet lemon). Or maybe the problem is that, while WH and EWH gear is obsolete, the level 50 PvE gear is still pretty viable for a lot of level 55 content (sour grapes).

 

I think you're trying to cuddle the broken content too much, and I'll leave it at that.