New PVP patch notes are completely bogus

[Trevalion]

I can see that we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

Stat equality (at a baseline level ONLY mind you) has no real effect on how difficult a warzone is to win.

 

It is interesting that the converse of that, which is stat in-equality has a measurable effect on how difficult a warzone is to win is demonstrably true (simple example is TTK for an player with greater stats attacking a player with lesser stats is always less).

 

What I hear you saying is that you liked being the underdog because it forced you to learn to be better.

 

I think it is very reasonable to believe that you will still be forced to play better, to compete on a higher level, even with the new bolster. I dont understand why you think otherwise. Unless you possibly think that your already so good that you will win all your matches. If that were true you must already win all your matches. Do you win all your matches?

 

If you dont, why do you believe that the new bolster will significantly change how your matches turn out?

 

Maybe your saying that it's purely on a personal level. You don't think you will personally be challenged anymore now that people who haven't pvp'd much will be bolstered to a better baseline?

[Trevalion]

To me, the concept that playing an MMO for a bit of time == work is ridiculous.

 

I get what your saying though. Your bothered by the idea that someone who has spent less time playing pvp has more equal stats compared to someone who pvp's alot. Especially because that relationship doesnt exist the other way around. We cant jump into pve and be bolstered.. ***?

 

To me the answer is that PvP and PvE are entirely different kinds of games. PvP should be accessible at the entry level to everyone. Progression in PvP should always be about increasing your skill by overcoming challenges. The thing is, in PvP the challenge should come from fighting skilled players, not by some artificial gear gap.

 

PvE is a different story. It is trivial to conquer even the most skillfully scripted AI. An artificial gating system is necessary.

 

Completely different modes mang.

[Altheran]

but learning by approximately even matches is absolutely false. then there is no difference in situations to teach you new tricks, new reactions, rotations. YOu're not being forced to try anything new because you're not actually being tried by unfair odds.

 

necessity brings about change... not mediocrity.

You are forced to try something new, because one has lost the last time, and the other feared the loss. The one who lost knows that he could have won, so he'll do what it's needed to win next time, and the one who won knows that he should be on guard for the next encounter as it wasn't an easy win.

 

Some people can give their harder when faced to unfair odds but some just give up. That is determined by how much masochist you are.

If a person is so moved by the will of winning, so that he doesn't give up even after an unfair loss, this guy won't stop giving his most because it was a "little loss".

 

If you can't learn when you win easily, but you can't either when the match is even, so when someone with already good abilities does improve ? With your logic : never.

[ErosGyne]

If this new system works, finally PVP will be about skill, not gear

I can see now, some of so call Hardcore PVPer crying about this,(like the OP) but if you have the skill, this will change nothing, good players will still be good, the bad ones will still be bad, no amount of gear or expertise will change that, but atleat will bring more ppl to PVP

[criminalheretic]

I have no issue with the bolster from a competitive standpoint. I am a better than average PvPer, meaning when I run into a player I don't know, who has 19k health, I still expect to win, and usually do. But conversely, when I am running from point A-B, and I roll over some poor guy with 14k health, and kill him in 2-3 seconds, I actually feel kinda guilty. I figure anyone I can kill in 3 seconds in recruit gear, I can kill in 7-8 seconds in EWH. So if the bolster means I don't get to kill anyone in 3 seconds, I can live with that.

 

What irks me about it is fairness. If the bolster is going to make PvE gear 'almost' as good as top end PvP gear, then I want to be able to run Scum and Villainy HM in my top end PvP gear, which I don't know if I'll be able to do.

 

Give me a PvE bolster, and I'll call it good.

[sari_ttb]

I have no issue with the bolster from a competitive standpoint. I am a better than average PvPer, meaning when I run into a player I don't know, who has 19k health, I still expect to win, and usually do. But conversely, when I am running from point A-B, and I roll over some poor guy with 14k health, and kill him in 2-3 seconds, I actually feel kinda guilty. I figure anyone I can kill in 3 seconds in recruit gear, I can kill in 7-8 seconds in EWH. So if the bolster means I don't get to kill anyone in 3 seconds, I can live with that.

 

What irks me about it is fairness. If the bolster is going to make PvE gear 'almost' as good as top end PvP gear, then I want to be able to run Scum and Villainy HM in my top end PvP gear, which I don't know if I'll be able to do.

 

Give me a PvE bolster, and I'll call it good.

 

I agree with you about pvp bolster, its a great thing. As someone posted earlier pvp and pve are totally diffirent types of play. Point is, in pve gearing up is part of the experience; to get to do harder challenges u need to build your pve gear. Bolstering pve gear would rthat progression barrier so bolstering for pve... id say thats a no.

 

In pvp its all about that teams must be equal in terms of gear to make a good game. IMO gearing up is not part of the pvp exparience cause its Player versus Player. Mayb BW can implement diffirent kind of rewards to good pvp players that makes em stand out but not with a higher stat then others (mayb special shells with GOOD looking armor, or mayb other things.. up to them )

[MotorCityMan]

I disagree with the OP. Making pvp more competitive while people are leveling is a great way to get more people interested in pvp. Also, lots of people level alts, and trying to min max each one at every level gets to be redundant. I don't think people "learn" their characters by being disadvantaged by inferior gear, anymore than players "learn" by holding a statistical advantage with superior gear. In fact, depending upon gear detracts from learning what your character is or isn't capable of. I think the proposed changes will be beneficial to a wider player base.

 

I like the idea of seperate pvp and pve gear. It maintains the integrity of the pve gear progression ladder while allowing more competitive pvp matches.

Edited April 5, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[Akuryu]

Frankly, gearing up for PVP was never that difficult or time consuming. I have never been full recruit on any character, because every character I leveled had a full bank of comms ready at 50. Within 3 or 4 days I am full WH. If you were not dedicated enough to gear up under the old system, it probably means you didn't PVP much, and no amount of bolster is going to help you against the so-called "hardcore" types that do nothing but PVP.

[IAmViiOLENT]

After playing on the PTS, and assuming that the core of bolster stays similar-

 

If you are in full, augmented PvE 69 level gear you will have about 31k hp as a DPS, with a bolster of ~900-1k expertise. In contrast, the beginning tier of new pvp gear with blue augments comes out to ~29k hp, with 2018 expertise.

 

At 2018 expertise, you havea 60% damage boost and ~36% damage mitigation bonuses (They balance each other out when in 2018v2018 gear). PvE gear is a HUGE disadvantage vs a fully geared player in expertise gear. In fact, dueling on DK versus players that I knew for a fact were excellent players wearing full PvE gear, my full expertise EWH min/max with 21.5k hp beat their 29k+ hp pve gear in less than 5-6 seconds flat usually. This illustrates that expertise is correctly balanced. As well as that, wearing full EWH is better than PvE gear of the new tier in a warzone, at least until you get the new tier of pvp gear (Its priced the same as current WH gear, with the higher tier costing current EWH prices).

 

There is still gear progression , you will need to grind new augments, biochem, gear. In fact, gear progression is almost identical to live, with the exception that now; even if you have some players on your team that aren't fully geared they won't be completely useless with 2 second TTK.

[warstory]

I think it's a learn to play issue with anyone who cares about a even playing field. /cry my stat advantage is not going to be here anymore...well time to learn how to play. I have a full ewh toon and I could care less the people who are not good will still not be good and the people hiding behind stats will be exposed....that is all.

[Purple-Punch]

SWG dumbed the game down as well .. yea, so enuf said ..

[warstory]

SWG dumbed the game down as well .. yea, so enuf said ..

 

Not even close

[Groncho]

SWG dumbed the game down as well .. yea, so enuf said ..

 

you sir have no idea

[JackNader]

Personally I WANT people to be on even footing. Facerolling 14kers isn't at all entertaining.

[Sunsau]

I think it's a learn to play issue with anyone who cares about a even playing field. /cry my stat advantage is not going to be here anymore...well time to learn how to play. I have a full ewh toon and I could care less the people who are not good will still not be good and the people hiding behind stats will be exposed....that is all.

 

Yes they will be boosted but some players will just be bad no matter what, hell some could have a bolster over and still die if they dont know how to dance with me(melee classes)or use their abilities properly.

[DrewFromPhilly]

Putting people on equal footing stat wise regardless of what they have equipped is the single greatest thing to ever happen to this game's pvp from a competitive as well as balance standpoint.

 

Don't like it? Too bad, stop using your gear advantage as a crutch.

[yoomazir]

Putting people on equal footing stat wise regardless of what they have equipped is the single greatest thing to ever happen to this game's pvp from a competitive as well as balance standpoint.

 

Don't like it? Too bad, stop using your gear advantage as a crutch.

 

Amen to that, pvp should be about skill, not about freshly new lvl 50-55 undergeared player vs FoTM BiS mofo.

[BoushhDC]

I have no issue with the bolster from a competitive standpoint. I am a better than average PvPer, meaning when I run into a player I don't know, who has 19k health, I still expect to win, and usually do. But conversely, when I am running from point A-B, and I roll over some poor guy with 14k health, and kill him in 2-3 seconds, I actually feel kinda guilty. I figure anyone I can kill in 3 seconds in recruit gear, I can kill in 7-8 seconds in EWH. So if the bolster means I don't get to kill anyone in 3 seconds, I can live with that.

 

What irks me about it is fairness. If the bolster is going to make PvE gear 'almost' as good as top end PvP gear, then I want to be able to run Scum and Villainy HM in my top end PvP gear, which I don't know if I'll be able to do.

 

Give me a PvE bolster, and I'll call it good.

 

^^ This.

 

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

I see people all the time showing up in WZs w/ their PvE gear on. There is nothing barring them from experiencing the PvP content even though they aren't geared for it. It currently effects the success of the team as a whole, but that's just the way it is at the moment. Conversely, however anyone without certain gear types will not be allowed to participate in PvE Operations or HMs. For example, during the Gree event, in General chat on Ilum, players were routinely looking for more to join their operations that "Must Be Geared" to the point of often specifying full Dread Guard and on one occasion even had to have gotten "*every* datacron" in the game (no joke) and that was for not only for the HM Operation, but the regular as well as even the Ilum bosses in the caves. So, if you didn't have the top gear, they wouldn't invite you.

 

So, since with 2.0 people will be able to show up in their green gear that's 10 levels below them and be just as effective stat-wise as someone in full, augmented EWH, then why not bolster PvE also? You can still have your gear grind from drops and chests, etc, but why not bolster players that primarily PvP? After all, those that show up in the WZs with their PvE gear chose to use their game time to acquire their gear and likewise, others have spent their time pursuing their PvP gear... which has changed many more times ranging from tiers, the valor grind, to the RNG of gear from bags, to straight purchasing w/ different types of commendations used as currency and now 2.0 is about upon us with more changes. With each of the changes and new tiers, it has required a substantial time commitment to acquire each new set and adapt to changes (to gear and nerfs to abilities/damage, but the latter is a whole different story).

 

Personally, all the time I was grinding PvP gear, I *was not* able to spend as much time grinding PvE gear. That's called an "opportunity cost." The PvE'ers have never been barred from participating in PvP although arguably they suffered a disadvantage (which was often distributed to the team) but now they will be just as effective from a stat perspective as a primary PvP'er but with a fraction of the time and effort... *and* they already have their top end PvE gear. Effectively, they can experience ALL the game's content without being barred by other players for gear reasons. That's fine if that's what you all want, but where is the quid pro quo? How is a PvP'er who has dedicated more of their finite time to pursuing the top tier of gear going to be likewise enabled to experience all the game has to offer with the equivalent amount of time, effort and credits invested that you will soon be affording the primary PvE'ers?

 

Long time PvP'ers such as myself have had to accept and adapt to all the vast changes as they've come along since launch, but where is the even handedness? I and I'm sure others would also like to experience other content (and often have: I've done every FP and Op in the game, including HMs & NmMs) but not enough to have ground out every piece of the top tier of gear which is required to experience all the rest the game has to offer. I'm not trying to say don't make the changes to enable more people to experience content in a more enjoyable, less frustrating way; I'm just saying, if you insist on doing it, do it for EVERYONE.

[DarthRaika]

Assuming equal teams (composition wise) then if stats were even the only deciding factors would be luck (crits without an infinite number of attacks, etc.) and skill. So to argue that bolster would mean skill matters less seems pretty wrong.

 

However, there is an argument to be made that with the current lack of premade matching that a bolster would allow for more premades and this would change the assumption I made above. However, a bolster would make it easier to add premade matching imo and that would be great.

[BoushhDC]

Well, BioWare? What's your response to the "what's good for the goose, good for the gander?" If you are going to negate the time that primary PvP'ers have spent pursuing top gear (in both current brackets) in order to make it more accessible to primary PvE'ers (who have never been barred from WZs due to gear issues, anyway) then why not bolster PvE Operations? What could possibly be your argument for not allowing players access to other content that they are currently restricted from because of gear when you are going to do it for PvP? You didn't launch with that concept and a lot of us have chosen to spend our time in ways that are now going to be forever negated. That's fine, but where is the trade-off?

[Anthraxal]

To the OP : you sir are a carebear of the most needing kind.

 

PvPers with their pride know that the only good solutions are the the holy erasing of this heresy called Expertise, or the best of the worse solutions being to balance Expertise across the board. Expertise is as carebear a choice as can be : peps don't have a clue? No problem, let's give them an all powerful stat that will balance their lack of game knowledge, skill, insight of their setup, etc.

 

Seriously oriented PvPers will still hold the top of line because they have better coordination, strategies, setups, skill distribution... Bolster won't make PvP gods of noobs, but but it will definitely make mere gimps able to deliver a good bite at would-be PvP gods whose only skill is having way too much gaming time on their hands.

 

Get a grip, bolster will just be incentive for PvP to happen, it won't end your world. Well, it might end yours if you can't get a good setup for the life of you, but oh well... darwin rules.

 

PvP in this game suffers enough flaws, failings and lacks, Bolster is just a bandaid but it might just be the first step in what could hopefully be the right direction.

 

TL;DR : want some challenge? Welcome Bolster.

 

PS : oh, btw, PvP is a mere mini-game in swtor, don't expect your cries to be heard.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Anthraxal

[Zatriann]

Wait wait wait ! Time out !

 

a) You understand that bolster is for leveling, right ? As in : not for max level... ?

b) You understand that people who farmed their whole wh sets are gonna be expertise capped at 55, while others might have to grind more, therefore they still get the advantage... ?

 

Sooooo, you are trying to tell me that you, in full ewh gear, should fight lvl 30s on their first toon with your full expertise advantage, as in 2018 vs 0 ? or vs 1000 (approx recruit gear)... ? Are you freakin out of your mind ? Giving 24 lvls of automatically crappy pvp to lvlers would be the absolute best way to disgust any new players to even try to do pvp XD. You bolster, make them even (it's said your min maxing is still an advantage, btw, only that it's smaller), and then you make them learn the tricks of their classes.

[MidichIorian]

Don't like it? Too bad, stop using your gear advantage as a crutch.

That might be true for a few but far more will realize that it wasnt the gear, it was simply a matter of them being worse than the people they thought were being carried by their gear.

[DesmoLegacy]

After playing on the PTS, and assuming that the core of bolster stays similar-

 

If you are in full, augmented PvE 69 level gear you will have about 31k hp as a DPS, with a bolster of ~900-1k expertise. In contrast, the beginning tier of new pvp gear with blue augments comes out to ~29k hp, with 2018 expertise.

 

At 2018 expertise, you havea 60% damage boost and ~36% damage mitigation bonuses (They balance each other out when in 2018v2018 gear). PvE gear is a HUGE disadvantage vs a fully geared player in expertise gear. In fact, dueling on DK versus players that I knew for a fact were excellent players wearing full PvE gear, my full expertise EWH min/max with 21.5k hp beat their 29k+ hp pve gear in less than 5-6 seconds flat usually. This illustrates that expertise is correctly balanced. As well as that, wearing full EWH is better than PvE gear of the new tier in a warzone, at least until you get the new tier of pvp gear (Its priced the same as current WH gear, with the higher tier costing current EWH prices).

 

There is still gear progression , you will need to grind new augments, biochem, gear. In fact, gear progression is almost identical to live, with the exception that now; even if you have some players on your team that aren't fully geared they won't be completely useless with 2 second TTK.

 

This is basically what I expected 100%, people complain way too much. At the end of the day you will still need to grind pvp gear, people are failing to realize that expertise has a completely different cap in 2.0 and without it you're limiting yourself.

 

The fact that bolster only gives 1k on the last version of test server should end this silly debate and flood of tears.

 

I welcome this change anyway, there is simply way too much of a gap in the current pvp situation. Matches these days are mostly a steamroll for one side, it's rarely a long competitive match anymore. Even when you're winning the game in a big way, it's not fun when the other team doesn't even bother leaving the starting area because they are getting farmed so bad.

 

Good players usually overcome gear but for alot of average to bad players this will help them at least not be completely useless.

Edited April 6, 2013 by DesmoLegacy

[BrianDavion]

only people who would object to this bolster change are people who grind up to high level PVP gear quickly and then use their gear to make up for their lack of skill.

 

people who PVP to enjoy the challange of fighting another human are gonna be happy with this as it'll make things less a curb stomp when fighting a more casual PVPer

Edited April 6, 2013 by BrianDavion