Disappointed about so-called "New In Game Barber-Shop"

[TravelersWay]

A) we know no details yet... so you pulled $6 out of some dark place didn't you?

 

B) choices have consequences.

 

C) they are adding a much requested feature to the game.... for people to deal with the consequences of their own mistakes

 

 

 

AND... just like in real life.... you don't get your hair styled for free... it costs you...in this case some of your free coins you get each month... so really it does not even cost you anything in this case.

 

 

 

 

 

Your personal opinion (which you are entitled to).... presented as fact (which it is not in this case).

 

Well said. Not to mention the fact that features of this type are pretty much a cash shop only item for MMOs at this point. Nothing wrong with it remaining so.

 

Any word on what?

 

That bioware / EA are aware that there are many people who will loudly complain about anything they personally do not approve of in a MMO?

 

And we have our winner!

 

BJ

Edited March 27, 2013 by TravelersWay

[DarthZak]

Let me ask you this, do you know what a GTN is?

 

 

Have you even been reading this thread? Regardless of whether or not this will become a GTN product (no confirmation on that btw) the point stands that its not free/in-game credits

 

[DarthZak]

Any word on what?

 

That bioware / EA are aware that there are many people who will loudly complain about anything they personally do not approve of in a MMO?

 

I am sure there are.

 

I mean a couple of days before "barbershopgate", as you might call it, the outrage was all about the Cartel Market reputation. (Yeah, do you even remember?)

 

And the next rage flavor of the month will surely come as well, no matter if YOU want to let it die or not - though I think at least letting it REST until we get detailed information on the actual prices / options of the barbershop would be a smart thing, no?

 

Nope Im still pretty pissed off about that but Ive heard some compelling arguments in favour of Cartel rep so for now Im leaving that as it is

 

Im sure they are as well but they should have the decency to say "We're not changing it" or "We're thinking about it or looking into it"

 

Id give it a rest if I had faith in BW but as it stands it wouldnt surprise me that they implement it as they give more details (like they did with the Cartel reputation) and at that point theyll pull the "Whoops, already implemented cant change it kthxbai"

And if there was any info thats positive towards our point of view then why not give it to settle matters?

 

Thinking ahead is a smart thing, no?

[PifferPuff]

I wanted to pop in and address some of your concerns about our barbershop and its use of Cartel Coins and not credits. There are a couple of design implications that go into these decisions I wanted to highlight in the hopes that it makes our decision in this regard a bit clearer.

 

• We very consciously design these systems around the fact that subscribers get monthly Cartel Coin grants. Pricing, etc. has these monthly grants in mind to ensure that our subscribers have access to these systems.
  
• We want to set the expectation that cosmetic systems like these are where you are going to see us use the Cartel Market. It is our continued philosophy that we will not implement a form of pay to win so cosmetic systems and other non-game impacting features are our best opportunities to make additions to the Cartel Market.
  

As we continue to release more information about our barbershop please continue to give us your feedback.

 

-eric

 

I fully support this! Great job BW. Can hardly wait for this to hit live.

 

It's a great idea for this game to add character appearance modification ... As long as the CC fee isn't exorbitant. I can see a per character CC fee of say 50 CCs for just one change (i.e. hairstyle or eye color or any other one thing) or something like 300 CCs for a full blown make-over. This would be fair.

 

For us subscribers, this is a nice cosmetic service to change our appearance, and it should be something that ought to cost something so we can't just do a full-blown change all the time - like multiple times a day. That would make no sense. Something not too pricey (like some of the speeders and such), but affordable enough so that we can manage a customization or 2 every month (assuming the average sub is getting ~350-500 CCs per month).

 

For example, do you see people going to the hair salon twice a day or every second day to get their hair done? No. Because there's no need to go nuts like that. It's something that is done every few weeks or a month or more or so. Variety is the spice of life, but even variety, like any spice, should be taken in moderation.

 

In short, please do add this awesome new feature, but please keep the CC cost low and fair.

Edited March 27, 2013 by PifferPuff

[DarthZak]

A) we know no details yet... so you pulled $6 out of some dark place didn't you?

 

B) choices have consequences.

 

C) they are adding a much requested feature to the game.... for people to deal with the consequences of their own mistakes

 

 

AND... just like in real life.... you don't get your hair styled for free... it costs you...in this case some of your free coins you get each month... so really it does not even cost you anything in this case.

 

 

 

Your personal opinion (which you are entitled to).... presented as fact (which it is not in this case).

 

A) Looking at the current prices of CM items I think a price around 400-600 coins insnt infeasible which would be about $6.

 

B) In a game that they touted as "having choices" there sure is a lack of them... changing my haircolor has no story effect or anything like it so yea...

 

C) Again, not a mistake. Im just bored with my current hairstyle after looking at it for more than a year.. shame on me!

 

Actually I do get my hair styled for free, it came with my subscription to being my parents child and being a friend. My dad's girlfriend and one of my best friends will cut it for free if I want to and in the summer I just grab some clippers to cut it really short

 

The CC's were meant as a loyalty reward and not a backdrop for BW to say "Well youre getting them anyway so you cant complain"

[PlasmaJohn]

Stop calling it what it isn't. This is a re-customization tool for your character. Not a change my hair every day tool.

Well then EA needs to clarify what it is. Sure, a small fraction of the playerbase will use the full on recustomizer. A much larger fraction wants the "change my hair every day" tool.

 

I'm personally not interested in a major modification (race, sex). A minor change tool (hairstyle, hair color, body marking, jewelry, scars, cybernetics*) is a core RP feature that has utility for non-RP'er's. I wouldn't spend CC's on it and I very much doubt any 'makeover' token would sell on the GTN for anything reasonable (<10k).

 

* I'm well aware that cyborg is a race in SW:TOR, I think that's really silly though. (if anything it's a template)

 

PS - I chose $6 because that's what an additional character slot costs

[Arutar]

Thinking ahead is a smart thing, no?

 

"Thinking ahead" isn't the term which came to my mind when reading the thread at all, but hey...

 

Just don`t be all too surprised if Bioware does not adjust their business model in accordance with your personal preferences.

[DarthZak]

"Thinking ahead" isn't the term which came to my mind when reading the thread at all, but hey...

 

Just don`t be all too surprised if Bioware does not adjust their business model in accordance with your personal preferences.

 

I wont be surprised at all, just very very disappointed. And obviously its not just my personal view but the view of many many others

[Arutar]

I wont be surprised at all, just very very disappointed.

 

Being very, very dissapointed about an expected result seems strange.

 

After all:

 

disappointed [ˌdɪsəˈpɔɪntɪd]

adj

saddened by the failure of an expectation, etc.

disappointedly adv

 

p.s. sorry, I could not resist

[DaRoamer]

Have you even been reading this thread? Regardless of whether or not this will become a GTN product (no confirmation on that btw) the point stands that its not free/in-game credits

 

 

Have you been reading this thread? Regardless of whether or not you need to buy this on the cartel market the point stands that you will still be able to buy it with in-game credits on the GTN or use your free monthly coins to get it.

 

[idnewton]

Why does it need to be any more complex than it already is?

Character Re-Customization

Available via cartel coin for subscribers and F2P.

- race change

- all character customization options

 

Agreed. The design of this makes sense. The people who are willing to pay money (or want credits from resale) buy it for cartel coins. The people who want it but don't want to spend real money buy it off the gtn for credits. People who don't want to pay cartel coins or credits need to grow up. People who don't want the unlock at all, don't buy it.

 

For what seems like the hundredth time I've said this on these forums: You can deny logic all you want, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Emencie]

Well then EA needs to clarify what it is.

Let me help you with that.

 

And I’m happy to announce that we’ll be introducing several new features along the way, like a new customization feature, which will allow you to change your character's hair style, eye color, body type, or even species (including the upcoming Cathar!) using Cartel Coins. Look for it in early summer.

• We very consciously design these systems around the fact that subscribers get monthly Cartel Coin grants. Pricing, etc. has these monthly grants in mind to ensure that our subscribers have access to these systems.
  
• We want to set the expectation that cosmetic systems like these are where you are going to see us use the Cartel Market. It is our continued philosophy that we will not implement a form of pay to win so cosmetic systems and other non-game impacting features are our best opportunities to make additions to the Cartel Market.
  

If you didn't get that.

• It's a full customization feature
  
• get used to all cosmetic and non game impacting systems using the CM
  
• BW tries to keep Subscribers in mind when pricing things in the CM
  
• Everything game affecting will be in the base game not the CM.
  

Sure, a small fraction of the playerbase will use the full on recustomizer. A much larger fraction wants the "change my hair every day" tool.

First off this is your opinion, You don't know that.

And Are you seriously implying that if they released the exact opposite, and released only a hair shop, there wouldn't be a thread here, in this one's place, with people ranting that they cant change body type, scars, and race for the new cathar? People asked and BW delivered Now you are all pissed because it isn't exactly catered to you personally. Well sorry you aren't the only people playing this game.

 

And furthermore development takes money and time. With the crew BW has right now we are lucky to get extras like this at all. Also did anyone take the time to think that splitting the system may be a lot harder to set up then a simple go back to the character creation screen item? It actually may be more difficult to make a change hair only option because that option isn't already coded into the game! Would you rather they work on that for another year and then give it to us? I'm sure if they did there would still be people ranting about some other minor thing that wasn't perfect to their liking.

[Aries_cz]

And Are you seriously implying that if they released the exact opposite, and released only a hair shop, there wouldn't be a thread here, in this one's place, with people ranting that they cant change body type, scars, and race for the new cathar?

I seriously doubt it would be that hard to throw player in a limitied "character creation" window in case of "minor" alterations (hair, beards, makeup, the basic stuff real people each day (makeup) or every couple of weeks (beard/hair)), that would be available for in-game credits (read, earned by in-game economy).

If you want some drastic rework of your body (size, race, color), then by all means, pay up with Cartel Coins, and you access the whole creation screen again

 

However, strictly being against possibility of paying in-game currency for simple changes like hair and makeup is like saying that you should pay in gold bricks every time you ho get your hair cut (and you do not get gold bricks for free in RL (sadly) )

[MadBernieSkills]

And there is your first mistake!! Do not design anything around the fact that we get monthly grants!! What is the point of giving them to us if you are going to help us spend them as well!! Leave them be!! Either that, or quadruple the amount or more so that we have enough to buy the things you are planning for us.. It is bad enough I already have to use them for rep..

 

There is your second mistake!! Other games have already set the stage here!! The barber shop does not belong in the Cartel Market!! In fact the less you do with it the better!! The cartel market is for the F2P players to buy stuff and buy their unlocks.. I am a subscriber.. My stuff belongs in the game!!! Not the cash shop that requires more of my money!! See the difference there.. I am a subscriber.. My money has already been paid.. My stuff belongs in the game.. Not on the cash shop..

 

If you are going to make me pay for a hair cut, then in game credits is what we should be using.. If you are going to make me pay for rep, then in game credits is what we should be using.. I am a subscriber.. I shouldn't have to pay for anything else.. That is why I am a subscriber.. That is the entire point of being a subscriber.. So we don't have to pay extra..

 

If you want to ditch the subscriber model, then let me know and I will be on my way..

 

^^ this

[Arutar]

However, strictly being against possibility of paying in-game currency for simple changes like hair and makeup is like saying that you should pay in gold bricks every time you ho get your hair cut

 

Your comparison with gold bars would only make remotely sense if simple changes like hair and makeup ingame would cost very, very many cartel coins.

 

Considering how expensive gold bars are compared to the value of haircuts in real life you seem to suggest that hair cuts in Swtor might costs HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of cartel coins, if not more.

 

Hyperbole much?

 

(But then, Hyperbole is the main theme of this discussion, isn`t it?)

[sharpenedstick]

Have you been reading this thread? Regardless of whether or not you need to buy this on the cartel market the point stands that you will still be able to buy it with in-game credits on the GTN or use your free monthly coins to get it.

 

 

There are a number of dubious claims in this statement. First of all, the monthly coins subscribers get are not "free." If you don't think EAware has calculated the rough value of the "stipend" (to use their term) as a part of the subscription service, you're crazy.

 

Remember, before F2P this game was hemorrhaging subscribers. It failed as a subscription model game. That means a substantial portion, and possibly the majority, of people who tried it didn't think that what was offered was worth $15/mo. It's not like F2P lead to a huge increase in content, so to make subscriptions more attractive, they added cartel coins to improve the value. They aren't free. You buy them. You just don't realize you buy them.

 

Secondly, by letting EAware justify gating content by the argument that subscribers can use their stipend, all you are going to do is create an eventuality where everything new is only accessible via the scam store, but that's okay because subscribers get some coins "for free." In a year or so, the "free" coins you get will no longer be sufficient to pay for access to content you should get as part of the subscription.

 

In fact, EAware has already used the stipend to justify their Pay2Rep system, and now we're seeing it in their barbershop.

 

There's a lot of WoW hate on these boards, but do you know what Blizzard charges for rep factions? 0. Do you know what they charge for barbershop? 0.

[Emencie]

Your comparison with gold bars would only make remotely sense if simple changes like hair and makeup ingame would cost very, very many cartel coins.

 

Considering how expensive gold bars are compared to the value of haircuts in real life you seem to suggest that hair cuts in Swtor might costs HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of cartel coins, if not more.

 

Hyperbole much?

 

(But then, Hyperbole is the main theme of this discussion, isn`t it?)

Not to mention gold bars literally translate to money And so could be used anyways if the barber in question had means to convert and so accepted gold bars.

 

for example the price for a gold Bullion is roughly $1,600.00 so I could pay with 1/80 of a gold bullion or 5oz to get a $20.00 haircut... Or you know just carry the cash it's easier.

 

I wasn't going to respond to this hyperbole, look what you made me do!

[idnewton]

Let me help you with that.

 

 

 

If you didn't get that.

• It's a full customization feature
  
• get used to all cosmetic and non game impacting systems using the CM
  
• BW tries to keep Subscribers in mind when pricing things in the CM
  
• Everything game affecting will be in the base game not the CM.
  

First off this is your opinion, You don't know that.

And Are you seriously implying that if they released the exact opposite, and released only a hair shop, there wouldn't be a thread here, in this one's place, with people ranting that they cant change body type, scars, and race for the new cathar? People asked and BW delivered Now you are all pissed because it isn't exactly catered to you personally. Well sorry you aren't the only people playing this game.

 

And furthermore development takes money and time. With the crew BW has right now we are lucky to get extras like this at all. Also did anyone take the time to think that splitting the system may be a lot harder to set up then a simple go back to the character creation screen item? It actually may be more difficult to make a change hair only option because that option isn't already coded into the game! Would you rather they work on that for another year and then give it to us? I'm sure if they did there would still be people ranting about some other minor thing that wasn't perfect to their liking.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[PlasmaJohn]

Let me help you with that.

Personal attack?

 

• It's a full customization feature
  
• get used to all cosmetic and non game impacting systems using the CM
  
• BW tries to keep Subscribers in mind when pricing things in the CM
  
• Everything game affecting will be in the base game not the CM.
  

If it is only a full recustomization feature then it is my opinion that they badly misinterpreted what was being asked for. It is also my opinion that there are many others that share that same opinion.

 

I acknowledge that EA needs to make money, but attempting to monetize minor QoL features even if they are cosmetic is an excellent way to alienate their customers and potential customers. If nobody complained about the directions they've taken recently we'd still be paying 70-140k credits per wipe. If we don't want this to go down the toilet of Pay-2-not-look-ugly then we need to make sure that EA understands they're crossing a line.

 

And furthermore development takes money and time. With the crew BW has right now we are lucky to get extras like this at all. Also did anyone take the time to think that splitting the system may be a lot harder to set up then a simple go back to the character creation screen item? It actually may be more difficult to make a change hair only option because that option isn't already coded into the game! Would you rather they work on that for another year and then give it to us? I'm sure if they did there would still be people ranting about some other minor thing that wasn't perfect to their liking.

If the engine is that busted that they cannot develop an appropriate UI for this feature within two weeks, then their time would be much better spent writing a new engine. I've been around the block a few times with Bioware game data formats. I have a rough idea what can and cannot be done with some of their older engines and it looks like SW:TOR has comparable flexibility.

[Ultramecha]

There are a number of dubious claims in this statement. First of all, the monthly coins subscribers get are not "free." If you don't think EAware has calculated the rough value of the "stipend" (to use their term) as a part of the subscription service, you're crazy.

 

Remember, before F2P this game was hemorrhaging subscribers. It failed as a subscription model game. That means a substantial portion, and possibly the majority, of people who tried it didn't think that what was offered was worth $15/mo. It's not like F2P lead to a huge increase in content, so to make subscriptions more attractive, they added cartel coins to improve the value. They aren't free. You buy them. You just don't realize you buy them.

 

Secondly, by letting EAware justify gating content by the argument that subscribers can use their stipend, all you are going to do is create an eventuality where everything new is only accessible via the scam store, but that's okay because subscribers get some coins "for free." In a year or so, the "free" coins you get will no longer be sufficient to pay for access to content you should get as part of the subscription.

 

In fact, EAware has already used the stipend to justify their Pay2Rep system, and now we're seeing it in their barbershop.

 

There's a lot of WoW hate on these boards, but do you know what Blizzard charges for rep factions? 0. Do you know what they charge for barbershop? 0.

 

How are cartel coins not free? I'm paying just my normal sub fee and nothing extra for cartel coins,,, That seems free to me. People are making this barbershop issue way bigger than it should be.... How horrible of Bioware to make money off of cosmetic items...

[idnewton]

Personal attack?

ROFL that's a bit of a stretch!!!!

 

The people who are willing to pay money (or want credits from resale) buy it for cartel coins. The people who want it but don't want to spend real money buy it off the gtn for credits. People who don't want to pay cartel coins or credits need to grow up. People who don't want the unlock at all, don't buy it.

I don't see how this is arguable, let alone why you think this is a big enough 'issue' for Bioware to do something about. Notice I put 'issue' in quotes. It barely qualifies.

[Emencie]

Personal attack?

 

Not even a little. It was meant to be literally taken as me helping you find BW's points on the system.

 

If it is only a full recustomization feature then it is my opinion that they badly misinterpreted what was being asked for. It is also my opinion that there are many others that share that same opinion.

Cant argue with that but to say Im in the opposite camp. A lot of people are they just aren't as vocal because we got exactly what we wanted. Full character re customization. So I can understand that not getting what you wanted can suck, but if BW has to only give 1 option. Id rather it be everything. Then they can go from there. parcel things off. and for all we know they plan to have this be a perk system like the respec anywhere. a 1 time CM fee to unlock. We don't know that information but people are jumping to conclusions and raging because it has anything at all to do with the CM.

 

If the engine is that busted that they cannot develop an appropriate UI for this feature within two weeks, then their time would be much better spent writing a new engine. I've been around the block a few times with Bioware game data formats. I have a rough idea what can and cannot be done with some of their older engines and it looks like SW:TOR has comparable flexibility.

The engine they are using is not a bioware made engine in fact most of their engines are not in house... but for some reason someone decided to find the most POS engine made and slap this multimillion dollar game on it... Simutronics Hero engine was the laughing stock engine for a long time and fell to the wayside with no one using it for a long while. If I remember correctly even ESO dropped it. Only 2 games ever came out using this engine... and SWTOR is one of them. I don't know if you were here at launch but all the frame-rate issues, and the inability for Ilum to be a real open world PVP planet were attributed by the devs themselves to this god awful POS engine. Kudos to the devs for making it into a great working platform for their game in the time since release but if you know anything about the industry rewriting the game to a new engine, or rewriting an engine takes a lot of man-hours and money (for buying the new engine base)

 

There is no way they are going to get the time or money to do the massive overhaul they had planed back in January of last year. They've lost too much revenue . You are right though their time would be better spent on that to make things smoother in the future. but I don't think the community will stick around while they focus on that. So they (hopefully) do that in the background with a few programmers while still churning out the content we ask them for. I think its pretty admirable that they are keeping at it after such a hard flop in the first 6 months.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Emencie

[DaRoamer]

There are a number of dubious claims in this statement. First of all, the monthly coins subscribers get are not "free." If you don't think EAware has calculated the rough value of the "stipend" (to use their term) as a part of the subscription service, you're crazy.

 

Remember, before F2P this game was hemorrhaging subscribers. It failed as a subscription model game. That means a substantial portion, and possibly the majority, of people who tried it didn't think that what was offered was worth $15/mo. It's not like F2P lead to a huge increase in content, so to make subscriptions more attractive, they added cartel coins to improve the value. They aren't free. You buy them. You just don't realize you buy them.

 

Secondly, by letting EAware justify gating content by the argument that subscribers can use their stipend, all you are going to do is create an eventuality where everything new is only accessible via the scam store, but that's okay because subscribers get some coins "for free." In a year or so, the "free" coins you get will no longer be sufficient to pay for access to content you should get as part of the subscription.

 

In fact, EAware has already used the stipend to justify their Pay2Rep system, and now we're seeing it in their barbershop.

 

There's a lot of WoW hate on these boards, but do you know what Blizzard charges for rep factions? 0. Do you know what they charge for barbershop? 0.

 

The sub cost before the cartel market was $15/month. The sub cost post cartel market is $15 and you get 500 coins per month. Those coins are free. Secondly, I downloaded a free security app. That's 100 coins I get a month for $0. I also get 100 coins for recommending a friend. My cost is $0. Your assertion that it wasn't worth $15 is completely irrelevant to the fact that that was the cost. The cost hasn't changed.

 

You second point is merely speculation and FUD. Let's discuss what has actually happened and what has been announced. In the time since free to play new content has been added that cost nothing. Even with the paid expansion coming up they are still adding an achievement system that is free to all. If at some point in the future they add actual content in the cartel market then let's reopen the discussion. As it stands, this is a cosmetic feature and those features are largely reserved for the cartel market.

 

The pay to rep argument is equally silly. It's a rep for buying cartel packs. It has no other reason for it existing. If they added cartel items that gave you rep with the other factions that are based around actual gameplay systems, like Voss faction rep, then it would be "pay to rep". This rep is a reward for people who buy packs, either from buying coins, using their free coins or buying them with credits from the GTN. If feel sorry for people who see a little bar on their legacy page and feel an overwhelming urge to fill it and are disappointed with the method that is required to fill it. They are fixing this by moving that rep to a separate page so people don't have to look at it and feel they aren't complete.

 

Lastly, what has been revealed is not a simple barber. In your example of WoW they only provide the option to change your hair. Anything more extensive, which is what this is, cost $15 with no possibility of doing it aside from spending real cash. In this case I will have 2 options to get this appearance change without spending any additional cash.

Edited March 27, 2013 by DaRoamer

[Arutar]

I acknowledge that EA needs to make money, but attempting to monetize minor QoL features even if they are cosmetic is an excellent way to alienate their customers and potential customers.

 

So in your opinion, minor, enitrely cometic QoL features do not belong in the CM.

 

But then which features do? I mean you cannot get any more insignificant than minor, enitrely cometic QoL features , right?

 

And since I am assumimg you - understandably - not want P2W features in the CM either, it seems to me, all you are saying is that there should be just useless stuff in the CM which does not improve the QoL even in a minor way...

 

Great business model you got there. And you people wonder why Bioware does not respond to you

Edited March 27, 2013 by Arutar

[Andryah]

Credit sinks are used to control inflation.

 

There is no inflation.

 

Tell that to low level players who want to buy crafting mats to level up crafting OR would like reasonably priced blue world drops.

 

Just because some over saturated cash cows of the high end crafters have run their course DOES NOT mean there is no inflationary pressures inside the game.

 

The veterans rolling in credits are very definitely putting heavy inflationary pressures on the non-50 levels of the populations.