Expertise system

[ebado]

sigh what?

 

PvE gear should not be viable in PvP. that is the entire point of expertise and having 2 separate gearing systems

 

I don't think you understood the post. It said top end PvE gear will be worse than top end PvP. I even bolded it. I'll do it again.

 

That's basically correct. There is a certain item rating level that once an individual item slot goes over that rating, it starts only getting expertise for its bolster (no more "PvE" stats). As the item rating continues to rise, you get less and less expertise until eventually bolster doesn't get anything from that item. The result should be that in the best PvE gear, you are somewhere between the "introduction bolster" level and the top end PvP gear in power. You would still be better off swapping to PvP gear if you have it, but you aren't terrible.

 

Also worth pointing out that this system works on an individual item basis, so each slot itself is bolstered up independently of all of the other slots on a character, so slots can give more of a bolster bonus than others if you have a really powerful item in your chest slot, as an example, but a really behind the curve implant.

 

Now I'll narrow it down even more:

 

You would still be better off swapping to PvP gear if you have it, but you aren't terrible.

 

This is exactly how it works with PvP gear in PvE by the way.

[Okamakiri]

and until rob comes back and corrects his statement that PvE gear will be more balanced against PvP gear in Warzones (more health vs more damage taken), it doesnt matter how anyone else on this forum tries to clarify it for him.

 

any attempt to balance PvE gear for PvP is ridiculous anyways. PvP gear is for PvP. is that not the purpose of expertise? to discourage people from using PvE gear? why bother with expertise if youre attempting to balance PvE gear against PvP gear? that defeats the purpose......

 

from what he says it sounds like PvP gear is having all of its endurance reworked, so that there is a significant gap between PvP health pools and PvE health pools. this has 2 negative effects. 1, it will further lower TTK. less health = die faster to burst. 2, full PvE gear should not be, even in the most slightest, most remote fashion, viable for use in PvP.

 

Tanking 101:

 

higher HP pool + lower damage reduction < lower HP pool + higher damage reduction

 

Ask any PVP healer who they prefer healing, a PVE geared tank or a PVP geared one. PVP gear will still be superior to PVE gear in every way.

 

The change will only make PVE gear actually usable in PVP, the same way PVP gear is usable and IS used daily in PVE.

[darthdirtyj]

I'm glad you guys finally decided to do something with the expertise but I don't think this was the way to fix it. Back before 1.2 when expertise was a flat rate stat increase meaning Damage Boost Damage Reduction and Heal boost were 20% across the board in full battlemaster, Warzones were a lot more balanced, however people complained that healers were unkillable so you guys switched the system to what it is now.

 

Here is a possible solution to the system. Remove the healing boost from expertise and remove the Damage boost. That way the only difference is player damage reduction. That way the people in full min max EWH like myself will still have best gear so no one feels cheating but the people still in recruit don't get utterly annihilated because there damage reduction doesn't scale to our damage boost output.

 

Granted I understand that's what you are trying to do with this new revision of bolster but I think it would be far simpler to try the avenue which I have just mentioned. I was an arena Junkie in wow since Season 1 and spend majority of my MMO play time in pvp. I'd really like to see the pvp system in this game get fixed because I have friends who got behind the gear curve and are sick of getting destroyed in 3 hits because of their gear.

 

Just Something to think about

[ebado]

Here is a possible solution to the system. Remove the healing boost from expertise and remove the Damage boost. That way the only difference is player damage reduction. That way the people in full min max EWH like myself will still have best gear so no one feels cheating but the people still in recruit don't get utterly annihilated because there damage reduction doesn't scale to our damage boost output.

 

Damage boost and damage reduction cancel each other out. If you remove damage boost, healers become unkillable again. Yes, even without the healing boost.

[HighCounsil]

I'm glad you guys finally decided to do something with the expertise but I don't think this was the way to fix it. Back before 1.2 when expertise was a flat rate stat increase meaning Damage Boost Damage Reduction and Heal boost were 20% across the board in full battlemaster, Warzones were a lot more balanced, however people complained that healers were unkillable so you guys switched the system to what it is now.

 

Here is a possible solution to the system. Remove the healing boost from expertise and remove the Damage boost. That way the only difference is player damage reduction. That way the people in full min max EWH like myself will still have best gear so no one feels cheating but the people still in recruit don't get utterly annihilated because there damage reduction doesn't scale to our damage boost output.

 

Granted I understand that's what you are trying to do with this new revision of bolster but I think it would be far simpler to try the avenue which I have just mentioned. I was an arena Junkie in wow since Season 1 and spend majority of my MMO play time in pvp. I'd really like to see the pvp system in this game get fixed because I have friends who got behind the gear curve and are sick of getting destroyed in 3 hits because of their gear.

 

Just Something to think about

 

With the way you suggest, nobody will be killable, not only the healers. Just think about it, 20% dmg reduction against unboosted dmg. What is it, 2.5k maximum hits on the strongest attacks, 500dmg vs bubbles and adrenals ))?

[darthdirtyj]

Damage boost and damage reduction cancel each other out. If you remove damage boost, healers become unkillable again. Yes, even without the healing boost.

 

They don't because there is still the 30% heal debuff in warzones. It's been in the game forever

[cashogy_reborn]

I don't think you understood the post. It said top end PvE gear will be worse than top end PvP. I even bolded it. I'll do it again.

 

 

 

Now I'll narrow it down even more:

 

 

 

This is exactly how it works with PvP gear in PvE by the way.

 

then why bother with expertise or 2 completely separate gearing systems in the first place?

[ebado]

They don't because there is still the 30% heal debuff in warzones. It's been in the game forever

 

I know. Even with trauma and no healing boost, if you just start giving players flat damage reduction for expertise, time to kill just goes up and up and up. Healers heal less but have more time to keep people alive. Really not a good idea.

[ebado]

then why bother with expertise or 2 completely separate gearing systems in the first place?

 

Why bother with expertise, the stat that makes PvP gear better in PvP than PvE gear? Is that your question?

 

I'm having trouble identifying at which point you are getting misled in this statement.

Edited February 20, 2013 by ebado

[HighCounsil]

Why bother with expertise, the stat that makes PvP gear better in PvP than PvE gear? Is that your question?

 

I'm having trouble identifying at which point you are getting misled in this statement.

 

That's because you haven't really been reading the thread, and still don't realise that the way it's going to work is that every player will have to max out on expertise, where it will effectively cancel each other out.

[yoomazir]

Gief Commando/Mercs proper love, kthxbye.

[Okamakiri]

then why bother with expertise or 2 completely separate gearing systems in the first place?

 

/facepalm... because PVE gear will never BiS in PVP, and vice versa, though they will finally both be viable in all areas of the game. You'll finally be able to acquire viable gear by doing whatever you enjoy, which could include a bit of both PVE and PVP. If at any point you decide to participate in top end content of either PVP or PVE, you will still need to acquire best gear intended for it respectively.

[ebado]

That's because you haven't really been reading the thread, and still don't realise that the way it's going to work is that every player will have to max out on expertise, where it will effectively cancel each other out.

 

? That's not what I've been saying at all. I've been exactly whats in your post: Hinkle has said the most power in PvP will come from PvP gear with this change.

Edited February 20, 2013 by ebado

[HighCounsil]

? That's not what I've been saying at all. I've been exactly whats in your post: Hinkle has said the most power in PvP will come from PvP gear with this change.

 

Indeed, but that is compared to the scenarios we see right now, when people use like 90% pvp and 10% pve gear to get "just a little extra". What you don't seem to notice (no offense) is that the way they are suggesting makes players max out on expertise, every one of us, no exceptions. Obviously, when everyone has the same expertise value, there is no boost in comparison to one another, it's even explicitly stated that expertise boost canceled out.

And hence is the question, why the hell bother with expertise if everyone having 1400 (for example) is absolutely the same as everyone having 0?

[sphyg]

Why bother with expertise, the stat that makes PvP gear better in PvP than PvE gear? Is that your question?

 

I'm having trouble identifying at which point you are getting misled in this statement.

 

We are confused because when they explained expertise, it was to make pve gear a crutch in PvP. Note they are trying to make it so it's okay to play in pve gear. Iirc, they created expertise to discourage the user of pve gear in PvP. More in effect they are saying, "hey it's okay. You won't have the BEST gear but you can still wear your pve stuff"

 

The contradiction isb from why they created expertise to note they are making it not as valuable.

[darthdirtyj]

I know. Even with trauma and no healing boost, if you just start giving players flat damage reduction for expertise, time to kill just goes up and up and up. Healers heal less but have more time to keep people alive. Really not a good idea.

 

Idk for me I've never had an issue killing a healer but that's because I play a carnage marauder and do about 25k damage on my rotation in 5 seconds. I do agree it will make it harder but that's what focus fire is for, and using stuns and cc effectively.

[foxmob]

The bigger change is in how we bolster and add stats to players to even out the playing field. Instead of focusing on player level, now the bolster system will take a look at each individual item on your character and use that as the baseline assumption of power for that item slot. We then bolster each slot up to what we feel is the "entry level" of PvP power, at which we think everyone can be happy playing without getting simply out geared to death. Effectively, we bolster players to something like what our recruit gear set tries to do now in 1.7, but with much better accuracy and effect. Additionally, the bolster system will now grant players expertise when it feels it is necessary, bringing our entry-level power gap even closer to the end-game PvP power.

you would think someone with a doctorate in humanities wouldn't stumble on this. nevertheless, I don't understand what it is you're saying here. What I think it says for lowbie:

 

• we're going to assess the value of your current gear
  
• then we're going to set the value of that slot in the wz to be equal to recruit
  

 

it should be pretty obvious why I'm confused. that makes no sense. who cares what the value of a slotted item is if everything is going to be "bolstered" to exactly the same "recruit" level? This also concerns me because the only benefit I get out of maxing all my professions and learning all of those painstaking schems is that I can uber gear my toon. that's right. I want the gear imbalance. I've earned it. if someone else wants to grind away and make purple sets every 2 levels or pay for it off the GTN, that's great too. Give crafters something. This is all, of course, assuming I've interpreted the above statement correctly, but I really don't think I have.

 

so my real question...can someone please paraphrase that in language dr. foxmob can understand?

[ebado]

Indeed, but that is compared to the scenarios we see right now, when people use like 90% pvp and 10% pve gear to get "just a little extra". What you don't seem to notice (no offense) is that the way they are suggesting makes players max out on expertise, every one of us, no exceptions. Obviously, when everyone has the same expertise value, there is no boost in comparison to one another, it's even explicitly stated that expertise boost canceled out.

And hence is the question, why the hell bother with expertise if everyone having 1400 (for example) is absolutely the same as everyone having 0?

 

People in PvP gear will have the same expertise. Not everybody. That's the benefit of the PvP gear and the point I think where people are getting confused. Hinkle mentioned earlier what their intended result was: top end PvE gear is worse than top end PvP gear. He said there's a point where bolster returns nothing.

 

You bother with two separate gear paths for a lot of reason, but most importantly: 1) It's easier to keep down gear inflation with a dominant PvP stat and 2) you keep people from feeling like they have to do the other path to progress quickly down their chosen path.

[ebado]

We are confused because when they explained expertise, it was to make pve gear a crutch in PvP. Note they are trying to make it so it's okay to play in pve gear. Iirc, they created expertise to discourage the user of pve gear in PvP. More in effect they are saying, "hey it's okay. You won't have the BEST gear but you can still wear your pve stuff"

 

The contradiction isb from why they created expertise to note they are making it not as valuable.

 

The bolded portion is not what I got from this series of posts at all. I got the opposite: they want to remove any question of what type of gear top end PvPers want to go after.

[Vukk]

How about addressing the game I like to call "Stun Wars " ?

[criminalheretic]

We are confused because when they explained expertise, it was to make pve gear a crutch in PvP. Note they are trying to make it so it's okay to play in pve gear. Iirc, they created expertise to discourage the user of pve gear in PvP. More in effect they are saying, "hey it's okay. You won't have the BEST gear but you can still wear your pve stuff"

 

The contradiction isb from why they created expertise to note they are making it not as valuable.

 

It all depends on the degree to which they bolster the PvE stuff really...

 

As it stands right now, while not as good as DG, EWH is WAY more viable in PvE, than DG is in PvP. I don't mind them closing that gap a LITTLE. At the same time, grinding/buying DG or even Rakata takes a lot of money and time, whereas grinding WH takes like 3-7 days. So I don't think there is a big NEED for PvE gear to be buffed, when PvP gear is easy to get.

 

TL;DR Buff ALL gear so it is at least Recruit level, but not much more than that.

[sphyg]

The bolded portion is not what I got from this series of posts at all. I got the opposite: they want to remove any question of what type of gear top end PvPers want to go after.

 

Then why bolster pve gear to have any kind of expertise at all?

[Eldriq]

Indeed, but that is compared to the scenarios we see right now, when people use like 90% pvp and 10% pve gear to get "just a little extra". What you don't seem to notice (no offense) is that the way they are suggesting makes players max out on expertise, every one of us, no exceptions. Obviously, when everyone has the same expertise value, there is no boost in comparison to one another, it's even explicitly stated that expertise boost canceled out.

And hence is the question, why the hell bother with expertise if everyone having 1400 (for example) is absolutely the same as everyone having 0?

 

I don't think everyone is going to be the same we will still have mods/armorings/enhancments and the like to play with to get more power or whatever the only difference is we it will all be pvp stuff. So all your gear will be the new pvp stuff but you will still have those that go off the rack and those that min max. I actually think this will add something to pvp as you will not have to farm credits to get a pve piece. I still think with these changes it will add to the warzone yes if you go against the a fully geared person your expertise will cancel out but if one has put in the time to get BiS then he is still going to flatten the other one.

[ebado]

Then why bolster pve gear to have any kind of expertise at all?

 

How he mentioned it earlier was what I thought was the obvious interpretation: to bring people to something similar to MK-2 levels. Didn't they say earlier they are removing the entry level PvP gear? This would seem to be the obvious replacement.

 

He also said later that there would be a point where bolster provides no extra stats, and then says that PvE will be worse than PvP gear.

[Eldriq]

Then why bolster pve gear to have any kind of expertise at all?

 

The bolster is so that if you do get a person who is farming he is not a complete carry through the game. It will also allow people to easily get into pvp and see if they like it before the commit to anything. I think it will be great now when inspecting your team they will all have expertise or the best pve gear kind of win win for the warzone. Or at least not a complete loss.