Expertise system

[Xerain]

Woot I'm glad I kept my expertise crystals.

 

It's kind of weird seeing the same item level on the mods, but the new ones having much higher stats. I don't understand how that works. Did they completely redo their stat scaling distribution or something?

 

Yeah that is weird. It just looks as if we're not going to end up with like 3x or more the health we have now so that's not bad at all.

 

i want my pvp gear to be bolstered on operations then.

 

All I read here is boo hoo I need gear to be better than other people.

[Smashbrother]

I was going to ask a question about Bolster and Open World PvP but having read all the posts it seems apparent that it simply wont. Meaning Open World PvP (out side Ilum which I believe does bolster) will be a joke to PvE players.

 

I have to say I would like to actually take part in PvP but currently the idea of having to grind gear back up using recruit or even PvE gear while being slaughtered and being the weak link on my team time after time is repugnant and I am sure a lot of other PvE would like to join in casual PvP with the difference being skill and not gear. And while I am not a PvPer I wonder if some of them would like to use PvP gear in flashpoints and opps without having to grind out a second set of gear.

 

Why BW had to introduce expertise is beyond me. Wouldn't most PvP players rather win through skill over gear? While this stat exists no matter how often BW claim it will be less about gear and more about skill in 2.0 expertise will turn a lot of players off from PvP. I know it was designed to have players have to invest twice as much time to get end game PvP and end game PvE gear but I think this is failing as all that happens is people feel excluded from a lot of content.

 

Expertise exists because you can't balance the time to acquire of items between pvp and pve. Right now you can get a WH set in like a week. It will take you much longer to get dreadguard (WH's pve equivalent) because of lockout timers on ops. Then there's also the fact you can 100% lose in pvp and still get WH, but you actually need to kill bosses to get gear in pve.

 

So if there was only one set for both, pvers will cry that they are forced to do pvp in order to get gear faster.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Smashbrother

[Polebreaker]

Expertise exists because you can't balance the time to acquire of items between pvp and pve. Right now you can get a WH set in like a week. It will take you much longer to get dreadguard (WH's pve equivalent) because of lockout timers on ops..

 

But when the game was released, and for the good part of a year, it was the other way around. PVP gear took *much* longer to get than pve gear.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Polebreaker

[Sydexlic]

that is what he said

 

PvE gear has no place in PvP. just like PvP gear has no place in PvE.

 

are we going to see a bolster system for Operations so that I can PvE with my War Hero gear?

 

Right now, PvP gear isn't terrible for PvE. You can clear all but the hardest levels of operations in semi-optimised WH or EWH gear. The reverse is far from true though, BiS dreadguard is inferior in every way than mere recruit for PvP.

 

There's inherent imbalance from this. You say that PvE gear has no place in PvP, yet PvP gear does have a place in PvE.

 

This system seeks to redress that imbalance. Keeps the optimal gear for PvP as PvP gear, but allows people who have put in hard work earing their PvE gear to make a much less painful transition to the world of PvP, much like the reverse transition of PvP gear into PvE has already long existed.

 

Bravo on this change Rob. It's a well conceived system to solve a clear inequity in the game.

[Achyllis]

Good changes. PvP players have reason to grind better gear but will not dominate WZs due to expertise stat alone. If you get pwnt in PvE gear on Ilum, change gear (after all the PvP gear should be fine for that content by all accounts) or don't go to the open world PvP areas.

[Smashbrother]

But when the game was released, and for the good part of a year, it was the other way around. PVP gear took *much* longer to get than pve gear.

 

Yes it did. And if there was only one set, pvpers would have whined that it took to long to get gear and that they were forced to do pve to get gear. This is why expertise exists. There's no perfect way to balance time to acquire.

[xxIncubixx]

Yeah that is weird. It just looks as if we're not going to end up with like 3x or more the health we have now so that's not bad at all.

 

 

 

All I read here is boo hoo I need gear to be better than other people.

 

lol since when are MMOs about skill?

Edited February 24, 2013 by xxIncubixx

[Raice]

So, I have a question. This thing is 17 pages long, so if this question has been asked... I'm sorry.

 

Anyway, I *think* I have a handle on how this Bolster/Expertise stuff is going to work. Basically, everyone gets bolstered to some goal and are considered equal. But with PvP gear, it adds Expertise, which reduces the amount of bolster, and allows the gear stats to take over... which leads to better performance? Correct me if I am wrong here, and fill in missing details for me.

 

Assuming that is correct - is there any reason to even have a 50's bracket anymore? I mean, to be honest with you... I understand why it had to be created in the first place. Back in the day... it was needed, badly. But now with how Expertise works, I don't see how it needs to exist anymore. Would it not be possible to put all lvls back into the WZ's again like it was originally intended? This should fix the queing issues, and open the game up to a lot more potentially exciting outcomes.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Raice

[Drudenfusz]

I don't know what the exact number is off the top of my head, but one of the aspects of the system is that newPvP gear, regardless of what "tier" it is, will hit cap expertise. That is, getting higher level PvP gear won't increase your expertise stat, just more of every other stat.

If one gets to the cap with gear alone, does that mean that warzone stims will become useless then?

[cashogy_reborn]

If one gets to the cap with gear alone, does that mean that warzone stims will become useless then?

 

no, as the cap is merely for stats you can stack in your gear. its always worked this way; the stim adds a flat 15% mitigation no matter what

[Tokdavid]

Why dont you just remove Expertise as a stat and have everyone, Pvp or pve gear, bolstered to the same lvl with the same stats?

 

The idea with pvping is the challange of fighting real players who arent predictable in thier action. The skill of the player and/or knowing your opponents class.

 

I know you need to have some sort of reward but let it be cosmetic, pve gear, mods, you name it.

 

As it is now, it isnt fun joining 50 pvp matcher and having your *** handed to you with a new dinged lvl 50.

Nor is it fun owning those newly dinged lvl 50s with a fully equiped EWH geared toon.

 

Am I the only one feeling this way or have i missed something important?

[Drudenfusz]

no, as the cap is merely for stats you can stack in your gear. its always worked this way; the stim adds a flat 15% mitigation no matter what

Okay, I hoped that will be the case, I was just worried... maybe because BioWare almost always ruins something with a patch.

[sanchito]

...

Am I the only one feeling this way or have i missed something important?

 

You're not the only one, but most of you left for GW2, where they have this very system. ;-)

 

I used to be all for equal gear in pvp, and i kinda still am, but what i do like in the current system is thinking about wether to replace a crit mod with a power one or not, parsing on a dummy to find out if i should stack surge over the DR or go with some alacrity, generally planning ahead to get the stat distribution i want (and maybe then realizing that i was wrong and have to change some things again)

 

I could get behind a system where everyone gets equal stat points and can freely distribute them, but just one standard gear set would take too much away in my opinion

[Groncho]

min maxing is cool

grinding 15 pieces to get the mods/enhas u need is a little bit 2 much

[manchusabre]

Why not get rid of expertise all together and actually make pvp more about skill? Why not work on a way to truly balance the players and match? I know people hated the pvp stat getting added to WOW. Right now the grind from recruit to war hero, much less elite, is depressing. I have 9 50s now and don't have the time to gear them all. I know if the new stuff ends up being another night and day difference in gameplay, I will have to seriously reconsider sticking with this game.

[Razgriz_tree]

Why dont you just remove Expertise as a stat and have everyone, Pvp or pve gear, bolstered to the same lvl with the same stats?

 

The idea with pvping is the challange of fighting real players who arent predictable in thier action. The skill of the player and/or knowing your opponents class.

 

I know you need to have some sort of reward but let it be cosmetic, pve gear, mods, you name it.

 

As it is now, it isnt fun joining 50 pvp matcher and having your *** handed to you with a new dinged lvl 50.

Nor is it fun owning those newly dinged lvl 50s with a fully equiped EWH geared toon.

 

Am I the only one feeling this way or have i missed something important?

 

For the 10000000000000000000000th time. No.

[prodigyqnz]

Why not get rid of expertise all together and actually make pvp more about skill? Why not work on a way to truly balance the players and match? I know people hated the pvp stat getting added to WOW. Right now the grind from recruit to war hero, much less elite, is depressing. I have 9 50s now and don't have the time to gear them all. I know if the new stuff ends up being another night and day difference in gameplay, I will have to seriously reconsider sticking with this game.

 

 

The solution is not to get rid of expertise.. how would that help you...

 

Example.. They take expertise off gear.. you will still have to grind for your gear on all 9 50's you have.. regardless of the stats..

 

The solution would be to change the binding policies in the game.. If they want certain items bound.. bind it to Legacy so that you can shuffle it around your characters as needed.. you already earned it.. let you use it.. don't force people to have to spend millions of credits to the land of no where.. to pull mods/enh all the time.. don't make item acquired that were never used by the person that found it bound to them.. Looted/Token Items should be unbound and sellable/tradable..Once equipped bounce to legacy.. Commendation items should be bound to legacy after purchase..Certain pieces should be bound and no trade Ear , Implant x 2 relic x 2 , Just like the 5 peice jewelry set in SWG.

 

That is also another solution.. putting the expertise on Those 5 Non Transferable pieces. It will be faster to get so people would be faced rolled for as long a period of time.. Also Put the Pvp set bonus on those pieces with exp.. and PvE set bonus on those without expertise.. and make all the armor and mods and enhancements 100% craftable.. This would make a big boom and push to all the crafting / gathering economy.

 

Tier 1: 95 exp Each piece

Tier 2: 200 exp Each piece

Tier 3: 410 exp Each piece

 

Tier increase = Base x 2 + 10.

 

This is just ramblings but there are so many ways you can go without totally removing expertise.

 

I feel your pain i have leveled 15 50's or more.. and had to delete a few along the way obviously to make room for the next.. to fully experience the game.. However The way this game is designed.. Multiple toons is not ideal.. If anything try to focus around 3 and if you get tired of any rotation one in for another .. and focus on that new set of 3.. 9 will not do if you choose to be casual.

Edited March 8, 2013 by prodigyqnz

[Fregger]

Why not get rid of expertise all together and actually make pvp more about skill?

 

Yep, exactly!

Give all the same starting position.

Or simply offer a war zone queue where all men are created equal and see which system, gear or no gear, is going to be more popular.

 

"Ceterum censeo gear dependency esse delendam"

[prodigyqnz]

Yep, exactly!

Give all the same starting position.

Or simply offer a war zone queue where all men are created equal and see which system, gear or no gear, is going to be more popular.

 

"Ceterum censeo gear dependency esse delendam"

 

MMO without character stat customization is fail.. simple and plain..

[Arutar]

Why BW had to introduce expertise is beyond me. Wouldn't most PvP players rather win through skill over gear? While this stat exists no matter how often BW claim it will be less about gear and more about skill in 2.0 expertise will turn a lot of players off from PvP. I know it was designed to have players have to invest twice as much time to get end game PvP and end game PvE gear but I think this is failing as all that happens is people feel excluded from a lot of content.

 

One question:

 

If Expertise would be removed, should High End PVE Gear be completely equal to High End pvp gear (i.e. Gear buyable for rated wz comms = hardmode operation gear)?

 

If yes (the only fair solution), I strongly suggest it would be the PVE crowd who complains loudest (that there is no incentive for serious raiding anymore) and not the PVP crowd.

 

THAT is the reason for the seperation of pvp and of pve gear. That each group of players can achieve the best equipment for the preferential content (PVE/PVP) by doing only that content. It can´t get more fair than this.

[sanchito]

MMO without character stat customization is fail.. simple and plain..

 

I could see a system where everyone gets the same stat budget and can distribute it however he wants though. Ranked warzones are already nothing else anyway, everyone playng seriously is geared.

[Fregger]

MMO without character stat customization is fail.. simple and plain..

 

Not simple. Not Plain.

There are Killer, Socializer, Explorer or Achiever. Mostly the Achiever cares for grinding.

 

The problem is that in "recent" MMOs stat customization is done via gear grinding, catering the achiever type.

Personally I don't give a flying **** for grinding.

 

They should offer a queue with no gear dependency, would be interesting to see which war zone type would be more popular.

 

 

"Ceterum censeo gear dependency esse delendam"

[Fregger]

I could see a system where everyone gets the same stat budget and can distribute it however he wants though.

 

I would like that.

 

"Ceterum censeo gear dependency esse delendam"

[prodigyqnz]

Not simple. Not Plain.

There are Killer, Socializer, Explorer or Achiever. Mostly the Achiever cares for grinding.

 

The problem is that in "recent" MMOs stat customization is done via gear grinding, catering the achiever type.

Personally I don't give a flying **** for grinding.

 

They should offer a queue with no gear dependency, would be interesting to see which war zone type would be more popular.

 

 

"Ceterum censeo gear dependency esse delendam"

 

 

You left out Lazy. Not to mention.. mixtures.. who says a killer cannot also be an acheiver , vice versa and combo or all 4. This is why the game has the diversity. But simply giving people stats/gear/etc.. just for turning on the game.. is a No No..

 

I am sure there is a solution some where.. to tone down the grinding at least. Maybe instead of each class having different stats.. there be one main stat for all. Bind gear acquired to legacy so that you can dance it around toons if need be.. Make the gear 90% craftable except for Ear , Implat , Relics .. I've stated all this already but simply just letting everyone be the same from get is not diverse.. creative or enjoyable.. You say you just want to fight but you will be bored in a month. Look what happened to GW2

Edited March 8, 2013 by prodigyqnz

[Fregger]

But simply giving people stats/gear/etc.. just for turning on the game.. is a No No..

 

Why not ?

Give them the LAZY queue, I would be the first to queue. All others can play in the hardcore queue.

 

Without any gear/stat advantage, it would be a question of smart tactics, reaction and coordination.

The greater the gear advantage, the easier to win against a smarter, faster and more coordinated player.

Is this really what you want ?

 

"Ceterum censeo gear dependency esse delendam"