Styxx Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 The debate is whether extortion constitutes griefing/ToS breach. Just because I am capable of reciprocating the action does not make it excusable or acceptable. Would you tell people who die to warzone hackers to get the exploits/mods themselves? Extortion is not griefing, nor it is TOS breach. It is not griefing, as you are in a PvP area, voluntarily. You are flagged, therefore you are within PvP rules - killed, by ANY number of times, camped, stalked, etc. It is not TOS breach, because there are no rules that prohibit it. It is a choice, given on top of "kill or be killed". You can opt to ignore it and kill or be killed, or you can choose to pay - which DOES NOT guarantee you won`t die... which is STILL not griefing, because you are under no obligation to do anything more than kill or be killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Personally, I think players extorting players crosses a line of moral decency and should result in bans for the individuals doing it. If I were a Dev, you can bet i'd be swinging the Ban Hammer heavy and hard. You MUST be joking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Extortion is not griefing, nor it is TOS breach. It is not griefing, as you are in a PvP area, voluntarily. You are flagged, therefore you are within PvP rules - killed, by ANY number of times, camped, stalked, etc. It is not TOS breach, because there are no rules that prohibit it. It is a choice, given on top of "kill or be killed". You can opt to ignore it and kill or be killed, or you can choose to pay - which DOES NOT guarantee you won`t die... which is STILL not griefing, because you are under no obligation to do anything more than kill or be killed. Our Terms Of Service include, but are not limited to, guidelines on in-game harassment, offensive behavior and naming, as well as the use of third-party software or the intentional exploitation of bugs or ----->design flaws in the game for personal advantage.<----- All players must agree to our Terms of Service to play the game and any player found to be in violation of them may have action taken against their account, which can include temporary or permanent account suspension. This pretty much puts the kibash on extortion as they are using a design flaw of the game for personal advantage. Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 You MUST be joking... No, I am NOT joking. It crosses a line where morality and human decency is concerned, that you are unable to understand that, makes me question your basic humanity. It doesn't matter if it's 'just a game' or not. There are some things you simply don't do as decent human beings. People who choose to do those things or are accepting of them are not decent human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) ----->design flaws in the game for personal advantage.<----- This pretty much puts the kibash on extortion as they are using a design flaw of the game for personal advantage. Nuff said. That line is aimed at something else than you might think: it`s to avoid exploiting. Problem is, they are not exploting anything, nor it is a design flaw: they are in a PvP area, marked as such, using normal and official entry points, using ingame normally acquired gear, via warzone vendor, using officially sanctioned skills to make "rotations", to kill other VOLUNTARIES, which are in said PvP area, marked as such. Where is the exploit, or the design flaw? How is asserting and using zone ownership via superior force an exploit, if such ownership was made using strictly numbers and/or "rotations"? Edited February 15, 2013 by Styxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkitip Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Was he also extorting the imp players? There's a big difference if he wasn't. No he wasn't, and by the ToS that was posted earlier what he was doing could be construed as worse because he was "abusing" a game mechanic to block off an area entirely and repeatedly doing it. Calling this extortion is also a serious leap in the logical use of the word. They aren't threatening you with violence, pain and suffering, etc. that they couldn't ALREADY inflict on you and be well within the rules of the game to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 That line is aimed at something else than you might think: it`s to avoid exploiting. Problem is, they are not exploting anything, nor it is a design flaw: they are in a PvP area, marked as such, using normal and official entry points, using ingame normally acquired gear, via warzone vendor, using officially sanctioned skills to make "rotations", to kill other VOLUNTARIES, which are in said PvP area, marked as such. Where is the exploit, or the design flaw? Extortion in a game that isn't designed for that type of behavior is exploiting a flaw in the game. It's not that hard to see or understand. I fail to see why you struggle with it unless you are doing it and feel the need to rationalize your poor behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 No, I am NOT joking. It crosses a line where morality and human decency is concerned, that you are unable to understand that, makes me question your basic humanity. It doesn't matter if it's 'just a game' or not. There are some things you simply don't do as decent human beings. People who choose to do those things or are accepting of them are not decent human beings. We can debate what a human being will do or not all day long, but this doesn`t deny one little fact... If you don`t like it, don`t go there. You DO have a choice, to avoid all this... or wait and go at off-peak times, or when your side has domination...and laugh in their face, if anything else you refuse to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarfieldJL Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 This extortion group sounds like a real pleasant crowd, where is an orbital bombardment option when you need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) We can debate what a human being will do or not all day long, but this doesn`t deny one little fact... If you don`t like it, don`t go there. You DO have a choice, to avoid all this... or wait and go at off-peak times, or when your side has domination...and laugh in their face, if anything else you refuse to do... I don't bother with the PvP stuff in this game generally. I consider the PvP in this game as incredibly risk free and pathetic so it's not worth my effort. If I can't loot your corpse and nom your goods, it's not PvP. Btw, I am coming from the perspective of an EVE Player who has done pretty much every dirty deed in EVE you can do, and not get banned (and a few that did get me banned lol). The fact is, this game is not EVE and people behaving like it is with that type of behavior, is pathetic and sad and I do hope they get banned for it. Edited February 15, 2013 by Saitada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Extortion in a game that isn't designed for that type of behavior is exploiting a flaw in the game. It's not that hard to see or understand. I fail to see why you struggle with it unless you are doing it and feel the need to rationalize your poor behavior. That extortion is a player asking you money (chatting), for not engaging in PvP. Chatting is not a flaw in the game, neither is trading among players, as far as money is concerned. PvP is not a flaw in the game, as far as PvP is concerned. So, where is the flaw in the game, again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swaption Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Extortion is not griefing, nor it is TOS breach. It is not griefing, as you are in a PvP area, voluntarily. You are flagged, therefore you are within PvP rules - killed, by ANY number of times, camped, stalked, etc. It is not TOS breach, because there are no rules that prohibit it. It is a choice, given on top of "kill or be killed". You can opt to ignore it and kill or be killed, or you can choose to pay - which DOES NOT guarantee you won`t die... which is STILL not griefing, because you are under no obligation to do anything more than kill or be killed. The ToS (and standard of conduct) are vague enough that extortion can be interpreted as a breach after a clarification by BW. Considering extortion as a "third" option does not excuse it, as the same argument can be made for blackmail (which is illegal). Again, the problem is extortion, not that players are camping and killing. No one is complaining about dying repeatedly. The logic there is that if someone wants to pvp, then they can go camp and kill other players in Ilum until they are bored. The attempt at what should be a pvp instance being turned into a credit farming opportunity is what bothers most people (and also with the assumption that most of these griefers would reduce their behavior if extortion were not permitted). The best example is to consider the consequences if well geared premades in pvp were offering to throw the matches for credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkitip Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Extortion in a game that isn't designed for that type of behavior is exploiting a flaw in the game. It's not that hard to see or understand. I fail to see why you struggle with it unless you are doing it and feel the need to rationalize your poor behavior. Read my post about Quinlynn. He does precisely that and uses a flaw in the game design to train mobs that are friendly to him onto other characters. You can clearly see this is a flaw because there isn't an otherwise "normal" way to train mobs onto PCs. BioWare rightfully considers this to be in the spirit of PVP on a PVP server. Only fresh 50s complain about Quinlynn anymore. The response for a long time is to gather up a group and go kill him, repeatedly if necessary. So Quinlynn is "exploiting" the game design and BioWare has made the right call by saying he is absolutely allowed to do that on a PVP server. These guys aren't even exploiting anything and they surely aren't forcing you to pay them because they're ALLOWED to kill you either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) He has killing rights either way, in a PvP area. You are red to her/him, regardless if you even see the text. Will you come and say that shooting a red player, in a PvP area is griefing, now, too? Having killing rights is one thing. Extorting credits is another. One is part of the PvP in this game. The other is using game mechanics in an unintended manner for personal gain, which IS a violation of the TOS. It isn't difficult to understand. The only reason I can see why you would defend such behavior is because you are a part of such behavior and feel the need to rationalize your behavior because you KNOW it's wrong. Edited February 15, 2013 by Saitada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Having killing rights is one thing. Extorting credits is another. One is part of the PvP in this game. The other is using game mechanics in an unintended manner for personal gain, which IS a violation of the TOS. It isn't difficult to understand. The only reason I can see why you would defend such behavior is because you are a part of such behavior and feel the need to rationalize your behavior because you KNOW it's wrong. He is using the chat, offering a choice - die in 5 seconds, or die after you say "no, thanks". You will die regardless... The ONLY option not to die, is to yield and meet the demands of the girl/guy that is holding the gun, or saber. Where is the violation of TOS? That the person is using the chat to present to you one option NOT to die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) He is using the chat, offering a choice - die in 5 seconds, or die after you say "no, thanks". You will die regardless... The ONLY option not to die, is to yield and meet the demands of the girl/guy that is holding the gun, or saber. Where is the violation of TOS? That the person is using the chat to present to you one option NOT to die? The violation of the TOS is using a game mechanic in an unintended manner for personal gain. Extortion has never been an intended game mechanic in this game. Ever. Period. Therefor using any game mechanic to extort credits from players is using game mechanics in an unintended manner and a clear violation of the ToS. Again, this is not difficult to understand. So I have to ask why you refuse to see such an incredibly simple point? Could it simply be you are one of the people doing this and are attempting to rationalize your obviously poor behavior that is clearly a violation of the general ToS and rules of game play set forth by BW? That is the ONLY reason I can see for you to continue to defend such behavior. *edit* From the ToS - Organize, effectuate or participate in any activity, group, guild that is harmful, abusive, hateful, racially, ethnically, religiously or otherwise offensive, obscene, threatening, bullying, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights, encourages conduct that would violate a law or in a reasonable person's view, objectionable and/or inappropriate. Hate speech is not tolerated In any reasonable persons view, extortion is objectionable and/or inappropriate. /end argument Edited February 15, 2013 by Saitada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 The violation of the TOS is using a game mechanic in an unintended manner for personal gain. Extortion has never been an intended game mechanic in this game. Ever. Period. Therefor using any game mechanic to extort credits from players is using game mechanics in an unintended manner and a clear violation of the ToS. This is a nice story and all, but how can be using the chat be against the TOS? It is a random option to avoid getting killed. They could ask you to the the moon dance, or /bop, or run in circles for 10 minutes, it makes no difference. It is a player, offering you a choice, which DOES NOT condition your PvP flag - that is on and you can be killed regardless. Because this is what your "game mechanic" means - a player that is bartering his kill rights, which he has regardless... So, how can be using the chat be a TOS break? Again, this is not difficult to understand. So I have to ask why you refuse to see such an incredibly simple point? Could it simply be you are one of the people doing this and are attempting to rationalize your obviously poor behavior that is clearly a violation of the general ToS and rules of game play set forth by BW? That is the ONLY reason I can see for you to continue to defend such behavior. This is the 3rd time you are trying this lol trap... I opted not to participate in this event at all, for other reasons than PvP. There is your answer, so you can get if off your chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 This is a nice story and all, but how can be using the chat be against the TOS? It is a random option to avoid getting killed. They could ask you to the the moon dance, or /bop, or run in circles for 10 minutes, it makes no difference. It is a player, offering you a choice, which DOES NOT condition your PvP flag - that is on and you can be killed regardless. Because this is what your "game mechanic" means - a player that is bartering his kill rights, which he has regardless... So, how can be using the chat be a TOS break? This is the 3rd time you are trying this lol trap... I opted not to participate in this event at all, for other reasons than PvP. There is your answer, so you can get if off your chest. See my edit to my post above yours. Your arguments are moot per the TOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinzer Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Extortion is such an ugly word. Protection sounds so much nicer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styxx Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 See my edit to my post above yours. Your arguments are moot per the TOS. You are grasping at straws now... and I am really bored of this now... It is not extortion, since you can opt out of it. You can either let them kill you, or cloak and run, if you have such a class that can do it. Furthermore, you are in a PvP area out of your own free will, fully knowing it is a FFA PvP area. Any player can present any argument not to kill you, but they are not under any obligation to present any, nor to even talk to you. You can choose to take the choice, or not, and be done with it. It is just a player using the chat, offering you a choice to not be killed... said choice being limited only by the player`s imagination Tell you what... open a ticket, with that presumed "TOS" snippet, and promise you will post Bioware`s response here, in full. This way, we will have an official response to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkitip Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 The violation of the TOS is using a game mechanic in an unintended manner for personal gain. Extortion has never been an intended game mechanic in this game. Ever. Period. Therefor using any game mechanic to extort credits from players is using game mechanics in an unintended manner and a clear violation of the ToS. Again, this is not difficult to understand. So I have to ask why you refuse to see such an incredibly simple point? Could it simply be you are one of the people doing this and are attempting to rationalize your obviously poor behavior that is clearly a violation of the general ToS and rules of game play set forth by BW? That is the ONLY reason I can see for you to continue to defend such behavior. *edit* From the ToS - Organize, effectuate or participate in any activity, group, guild that is harmful, abusive, hateful, racially, ethnically, religiously or otherwise offensive, obscene, threatening, bullying, vulgar, sexually explicit, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights, encourages conduct that would violate a law or in a reasonable person's view, objectionable and/or inappropriate. Hate speech is not tolerated In any reasonable persons view, extortion is objectionable and/or inappropriate. /end argument There has been such a ridiculous use of the word extortion ITT. Extortion is illegal. To those victimized, please contact a lawyer. Let us know how the case goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryathal Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Damn you pvper love to complain. First it was the ffa zone is just everyone killing eachother so no one wins, then it was whining about people agreeing to wait in line and not fight at all, now its groups are killing people that aren't them and not letting people complete the quest without there blessing. What is next? People are forming evenly matched groups so no one can gain control? If you wanted an even fight that you can eventually overcome there is a huge part of the game for that, its called pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordAlset Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 It Violates tos. Do anything that interferes with the ability of other Service users to enjoy playing Star Wars: The Old Republic and using the Service in accordance with its rules, or that materially increases the expense or difficulty of EA in maintaining the Service for the enjoyment of all its users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saitada Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 You are grasping at straws now... and I am really bored of this now... It is not extortion, since you can opt out of it. You can either let them kill you, or cloak and run, if you have such a class that can do it. Furthermore, you are in a PvP area out of your own free will, fully knowing it is a FFA PvP area. Any player can present any argument not to kill you, but they are not under any obligation to present any, nor to even talk to you. You can choose to take the choice, or not, and be done with it. It is just a player using the chat, offering you a choice to not be killed... said choice being limited only by the player`s imagination Tell you what... open a ticket, with that presumed "TOS" snippet, and promise you will post Bioware`s response here, in full. This way, we will have an official response to this I'm sorry but what part of that part of the TOS didn't you understand? Seems to me it's pretty clear. The only people who can't understand such things are griefers intent on being griefers. As for opening a ticket with EA/BW, we all already know that EA/BW doesn't give three craps about this game and doesn't enforce their own ToS. If they did they would force people with names like Xxgimmieyermomxx to change their names. They don't. Even though they actually spelled out in the rules of the game and character creation and naming that names like that were not acceptable. It doesn't change that what people are doing when they EXTORT credits from other players, is against the TOS, because as it says, any REASONABLE person would find it offensive or inappropriate. Griefers are not reasonable people so of course they won't be able to see how their behavior is wrong. Anyway. Nuff said. I have pointed out the pertinent portion of the TOS that is relevant to this issue. You can ignore it and keep on keeping on, or follow it and modify your behavior. EA/BW likely won't do anything about it because as I said above, they show repeatedly that they don't care about this game and don't bother enforcing their own rules, thus why people get away with the things they do. Have a fun Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadishist Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Bioware won't ban anyone they're making good money from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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