Lethality Op PVP vid 2

[Jiingles]

I honestly didn't know devs watched PVP videos, so thank you for your time.

Well they have to do something on these forums.. cause they obviously don't listen to nerf smash QQ or take any other hints that pvp is failing atm :\

[MobiusZero]

The problem with these responses, and most of the other responses I have seen to this question, is that they assume that enemies don't care about you. If no one is focusing you, then ANY class is going to dominate a warzone. An unchecked ANYTHING will be able to put out obscene damage numbers, and although that is probably more true of a DOT class than another class, the general principle applies to every spec. For players to let you free-fire into the WZ, they need to be either oblivious to your presence, not part of a premade that is communicating, or just plain bad.

 

If I get focused, I will LoS and self heal. In order to chase me down, you will have to run right through my team.

 

But any class is going to have a rough time if they are getting focused. That's why you try to stick with the main force, and don't rush in at the wrong time.

 

Sure, things may get a little hairy if I get grappled. If flash bang/stun/adhesive corrosives isn't enough, that's when you use Cloaking Screen.

 

Also, good use of crouch can eliminate a lot of this (Granted, I usually prefer to move around a lot rather than spend too much time crouching. But the option is always there if leaps and pulls are a big issue.)

 

Honestly, any class will have a rough time when focused. If they choose to focus me, I have the advantage of mobility, shield probe that is always there when I need it, and the ability to self heal once I LoS. That's quite a bit more than many classes get.

 

Moreover, Lethality has some extremely loud, unique, and visually obnoxious animations. If anything this just makes it more likely you will get focused.

 

As I pointed out in a previous post - I find this to be the exact opposite. Maybe it's the case if I'm in your face to execute you with a Cull, but at that point you're already a goner.

 

And all it takes is one enemy to make it his business killing you. One Marauder, one Sin, one Op, one PT, etc. If he forces the 1v1, then there is really nothing you can do to avoid it. All three of those classes have just as many slows, stuns, roots, and speed boosts as Lethality Ops have. As long as just one guy is hunting you, they are not a detriment to their team. If anything that makes them an asset, because 1 person can keep a Lethality player from spreading around too many DOTs.

 

I can assure you that no class can catch me unless I'm extremely unlucky and all my escape abilities are on CD. And usually the ones that try, get killed because they just leapt to me in the middle of my team and are now stunned (by me).

 

And because of counterstrike, even the Marauder's slow on their leap, can't stop me from stunning and running.

Edited February 13, 2013 by MobiusZero

[cultivatedmass]

nobody focuses lethality operatives. i live a very long time on mine. either by not getting attacked(against good teams) or having very good defensive cooldowns at my disposal.

 

why would they focus them? there are other priorities.

 

healers, burst melee, and pyrotechs are higher up on the kill now chain.

 

usually the one that has the bright cull animation on them gets cleansed then you move on to more pressing matters.

Edited February 13, 2013 by cultivatedmass

[tatatan]

Only time, when Lethality is good is during the Voidstar offensive. That's only time i respec to Lethality, otherwise, medic. If you dont go heals you just hurt your team.

yea, you can have 'fun' with leth. but the 'fun' die off quickly, when you realize, you could actually win those matches, if you actually healed, compared to running around, poisoning everyone.

[MobiusZero]

Only time, when Lethality is good is during the Voidstar offensive. That's only time i respec to Lethality, otherwise, medic. If you dont go heals you just hurt your team.

yea, you can have 'fun' with leth. but the 'fun' die off quickly, when you realize, you could actually win those matches, if you actually healed, compared to running around, poisoning everyone.

 

Or even better, just be a FoTM reroller, and make a smash mara, with this mentality of yours.

[Ravashakk]

Hi,

i play / played Lethality Op from game Day -7 (one week early access - well maybe -6 befor i got to level 10).

 

I can only say Lethality is much broken in PvP. Also i can say, i take any other DMG class and destroy Lethality. That's it.

Do you want to know it's 'sweet secret' ?

- he need its TA (tactical advantage) to use Cull (biggest DMG attack) and also Cull to do any DMG he needs to have 2 poisons on you

- ergo:

1. let him dot you (cleanse if you can - remember cleanse is on 6 sec cooldown, so if you cleanse right, he wont even have chance to do any DMG to you because he can not use his biggest attack with no poisons on you)

 

2 let him shiv you (knife attack - he need to knife you to gain TA for Cull)

 

3. CC him, slow him + kite him for roughly 5 sec (depending on you CC ability time) and let his Tactical advantage expire .... and you have one Lethality with pants down

 

4. laugh at him (this all doing while 2nd cleansing his DoTs and removing them entirely)

 

5. proceed to kill him if you didn't already

 

The video show that you can be good if you run unchecked - but then any class can. Nothing against the player here, he does good, but then as said, if you're spotted by someone who's decent player, you're dead meat.

 

This is always the excuse I read...."well you were playing scrubs that didn't target you or don't know how to play their class". It is a bunch of BS IMO. It is a well known fact on my server that I generally get focused no matter which spec I'm playing. I generally take more dmg than most of the players, including the healers. Feel free to check the tanking records....I'm in most of them.

 

So your ultimate defense against Lethality is to play 1 of the 2 classes than can consistently cleanse my dots. You created a situation that favors your argument but leaves out a lot of details that are normally present in REAL situations. Like you paying attention to someone else, and I dot you from afar before running in to mess with you. You might have other debuffs that chew up your cleanse cooldown. Maybe I have 1-2 TAs from fighting someone else before moving on to you. One of my dots killed someone somewhere, and gives me a TA. The list goes on and on. The point is, if you set up a situation to play to someone's weaknesses, of course they are going to come out less than optimal.

 

Like you said though, my server has 0 decent players, and therefore is the reason your situation has never happened to me. lol

[Ravashakk]

Yeah, I'm glad they have time to reply to this, of all topics, and time to watch a player made video, rather than actually responding to 1 of the hundreds of threads about CCs.

 

Glad he's here, just feel he's in the wrong thread.

 

You know posts like these are part of the problem, right? Just because they don't respond to all the QQ threads doesn't mean they don't have ppl working on it.

 

nobody focuses lethality operatives. i live a very long time on mine. either by not getting attacked(against good teams) or having very good defensive cooldowns at my disposal.

 

why would they focus them? there are other priorities.

 

healers, burst melee, and pyrotechs are higher up on the kill now chain.

 

usually the one that has the bright cull animation on them gets cleansed then you move on to more pressing matters.

 

Sounds like you don't have name recognition on your server TBH. When ppl know who you are and what you are capable of, they focus you a lot.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Ravashakk

[Ravashakk]

Personally, I don't even agree with the playstyle of the OP, but to each their own, I guess. But I find that this type of playstyle really sets people off to the spec, and is the playstyle (and spec) utilized by almost every single Lethality Op I ever see.

 

Curious on what playstyle you are referring to.

 

If you are referring to tab dotting everyone, I showed a lot of that in my first video. That's why this one was different. Just because the video didn't concentrate on it, doesn't mean I wasn't doing it.

Edited February 14, 2013 by Ravashakk

[Ravashakk]

Only time, when Lethality is good is during the Voidstar offensive. That's only time i respec to Lethality, otherwise, medic. If you dont go heals you just hurt your team.

yea, you can have 'fun' with leth. but the 'fun' die off quickly, when you realize, you could actually win those matches, if you actually healed, compared to running around, poisoning everyone.

 

Your comparison is kind of messed up. If you are there to fill a DPS role, playing your healing spec won't help except in those situations where your healers aren't doing their jobs. We've ALL probably been in those games where the DPS are horrible and all you have is good healing. Playing your DPS spec would be much more beneficial than your healing spec.

 

I've said it before, play the spec you enjoy, not because it is strong. I can show you the SS of my champion/BM geared marauder that has 0 stats on his PVP page. I don't like playing a strong class for the sake of them being strong. I enjoy lethality whether it is broken or viable.

[cultivatedmass]

 

Sounds like you don't have name recognition on your server TBH. When ppl know who you are and what you are capable of, they focus you a lot.

 

i'm sure you press the keys harder than i do, but that doesn't negate acid being cleansed. and if a team is focusing you after that then they just want to **** with you(or you outgear your team which would make you the threat even after a cleanse, not class related).

 

i never said it doesn't happen, but they could just cleanse and save their cooldowns on other people. bad teams will do bad things.

 

lethality needs serious help. it's not good. you're not some genius that is way ahead of everyone else on what is good or not. it's completely countered with 1 button.

 

it's an i'm bored/hipster build for fun. that is all.

Edited February 14, 2013 by cultivatedmass

[rlamela]

Neb why even bother defending your spec, you enjoy it and wreck people while doing it. Let bads think the class sucks. My only problem with your video is why wasn't there any video of you wrecking me on it. I feel left out. I too would like to be famous. So please next time I happen to be in a warzone with you please hit the fraps and make me famous.

 

Jenna'syyde

Edited February 14, 2013 by rlamela

[cultivatedmass]

Neb why even bother defending your spec, you enjoy it and wreck people while doing it. Let bads think the class sucks. My only problem with your video is why wasn't there any video of you wrecking me on it. I feel left out. I too would like to be famous. So please next time I happen to be in a warzone with you please hit the fraps and make me famous.

 

Jenna'syyde

 

i bet you think arsenal merc is also amazing because you saw some guy freecasting with it.

[Ravashakk]

i'm sure you press the keys harder than i do, but that doesn't negate acid being cleansed. and if a team is focusing you after that then they just want to **** with you(or you outgear your team which would make you the threat even after a cleanse, not class related).

 

i never said it doesn't happen, but they could just cleanse and save their cooldowns on other people. bad teams will do bad things.

 

lethality needs serious help. it's not good. you're not some genius that is way ahead of everyone else on what is good or not. it's completely countered with 1 button.

 

it's an i'm bored/hipster build for fun. that is all.

 

It is apparent that you're going to stick to your short sighted way of thinking, so let's agree to disagree.

 

Neb why even bother defending your spec, you enjoy it and wreck people while doing it. Let bads think the class sucks. My only problem with your video is why wasn't there any video of you wrecking me on it. I feel left out. I too would like to be famous. So please next time I happen to be in a warzone with you please hit the fraps and make me famous.

 

Jenna'syyde

 

Can't remember the last time I was even in a game against you. :-)

Edited February 14, 2013 by Ravashakk

[rlamela]

i bet you think arsenal merc is also amazing because you saw some guy freecasting with it.

 

actually I enjoy my DPS commando very much. IS it the best class no. But just cause you cant succeed at a class doesn't mean it is broken . So just cause you don't like the Lethality spec doesn't make it garbage. Neb has already said it has its issues, but his skill is good enough to overcome those issues. When you make a video showcasing your abilities then maybe your opinion will matter.

 

Jenna'syyde 3-5-33 Sage

Crackroxx 14-0-27 Commando

[ktkenshinx]

I've said it before, play the spec you enjoy, not because it is strong. I can show you the SS of my champion/BM geared marauder that has 0 stats on his PVP page. I don't like playing a strong class for the sake of them being strong. I enjoy lethality whether it is broken or viable.

I think that's a great place to start this post because ultimately it's true. I was playing Concealment/Scrapper before the buffs to Sneak movespeed, and golly gosh was that awful. Just because a class has some issues here and there doesn't make it completely un-viable in the hands of a skilled and dedicated player. So please, bear all that in mind as I am criticizing the Lethality spec; I'm neither trying to insult you or your gameplay. To each his own! But the spec, as I see it, still has serious problems.

nobody focuses lethality operatives. i live a very long time on mine. either by not getting attacked(against good teams) or having very good defensive cooldowns at my disposal.

 

why would they focus them? there are other priorities.

I can assure you that no class can catch me unless I'm extremely unlucky and all my escape abilities are on CD. And usually the ones that try, get killed because they just leapt to me in the middle of my team and are now stunned (by me).

 

And because of counterstrike, even the Marauder's slow on their leap, can't stop me from stunning and running.

I see a lot of this kind of talk when we are discussing Lethality on this forum. But it just doesn't make any sense either from an experience perspective (I see Lethality guys get caught and killed all the time) and more importantly, from a logical one. If Lethality was just some godlike, uncatchable kiting class, then I guarantee you that we would see more of it. But the fact is, it is quite rare in PvP, and when it is present, it does die a lot. Is this because it is challenging to play? Partially. But there is probably some other mechanism at work that keeps decent Operative/Scoundrel players away from the spec, and that other mechanism is probably not just the aesthetics of the Scrapper shotgun or the Concealment knives.

 

As I see it, the problem is that once this class gets singled out by just one solitary opponent, it is in serious trouble. I do not mean "focused" in the sense of multiple attackers focusing you. As someone correctly observed, any class is going to be screwed in that situation (some more than others). I am talking about a situation where just one enemy decides it is time to kill you.

 

To start, why would one enemy decide to kill you? A counterargument might state that Lethality players are on the bottom of the target totem pole. By that logic, it makes sense to kill everyone else, such as healers, smashers, snipers, etc. before killing you. But that just assumes you are playing against ignorant and bad opponents. Experienced players know what an unchecked Lethality Op will do; spread DOT love to everyone on their team, overtax the healer, etc. The solution, especially if you are on a premade team, is just to send 1 guy to take down the Op.

 

Most classes are prepared for this 1v1. Scrappers (the Dirty Fighting/Lethality counterpart) live for the duel. Snipers, the other Agent AC, are at least quite good at it, if not "built" explicitly for it. So are Marauders, Juggs, Sins, Pyros, Sorcs, Snipers, and basically every other class I can think of except healers, which don't really have "matchups" persay. All of these classes have at least some offensive and defensive game in the 1v1 situation. Yes, anyone can get help from their team's healers, tanks/taunts/guards, and other DPS. But you, like me, have played a ton of WZs, and know that you are often completely on your own in a fight against a single opponent. Other AOE effects might clip you, but this guy is gunning for you and you need to do something about it.

 

And that is where the Lethality Op seems to run into big trouble. They can definitely evade the opponent for a while, but they actually can't kill the guy without getting help. A number of Lethality players have admitted in this very thread to being completely screwed in the 1v1, resorting to flight tactics, disappearing into a crowd, getting help, and other options. Short of this ally intervention, however, the Lethality player is not going to be able to deal with the threat on their own.

 

For example, let's look at Sins. I honestly have no idea how a decent Sin would ever lose to a similarly geared and skilled Lethality player if they had comprable CDs up. Tanksins have a gigantic 5s Shroud, a slow-cleansing Force Speed (which also gap closes), a stealth opener, TONS of slows of their own, a pull, and huge survivability CDs. Deception Sins have lots of slows (Force Slow CDR and duration increase, Spike slow), great CC (Low Slash), terrifying melee burst, comparable move speed, 25% mitigation in Blackoutm and still that Shroud and stealth opener. And of course Madness Sins have more or less the same DOT potential as Lethality does, a really scary root, self-heals off of the DOTs, and STILL the Shroud + stealth opener.

 

We could do a similar rundown for Marauders (especially carnage guys with all their charges and roots and slows and cleanses and move speed bonuses), Sorcs (who do everything that Lethality does but at 30 meters instead of 10), and of course Scrappers/Concealment (who can cleanse all of the slows, have the tendon blast snare, the Sneak 50% move speed bonus, an Evasion that completely wrecks Lethality DOTs, and a completely brutal and almost unrecoverable opener). Personally, as a Scrapper, I make it my business to kill those Lethality guys whenever I see them because I know that the time I "waste" killing them will send them back to the respawn, save my team a ton of damage,and still give me time to go help kill others before they return.

 

Against a pure pug team, or a team that doesn't take you seriously, I can see a Lethality player doing well. But if one of those above classes makes it his business to kill you whenever you appear before returning to the fight, the Lethality player is going to be murdered a lot.

 

"But isn't that true of other classes? If they get targeted by one player, won't they also die a lot?" Absolutely not. All of those classes I just mentioned have awesome 1v1 games. But as I keep hearing, the Lethality player is stuck in a run-and-hide-and-pray mentality when someone marks him for death. That seems like a major problem with the class.

 

Again, none of this is to knock any Lethality players here, their play style, the quality of their enemies/servers, etc. This is just an observation from my experience about a potential problem with the class.

[Ravashakk]

To each his own! But the spec, as I see it, still has serious problems.

 

I already agreed that there are issues that need to be tweaked with the spec. I also said there are ways around them (like a bandage) until a permanent fix is in place.

 

I see a lot of this kind of talk when we are discussing Lethality on this forum. But it just doesn't make any sense either from an experience perspective (I see Lethality guys get caught and killed all the time) and more importantly, from a logical one. If Lethality was just some godlike, uncatchable kiting class, then I guarantee you that we would see more of it. But the fact is, it is quite rare in PvP, and when it is present, it does die a lot. Is this because it is challenging to play? Partially. But there is probably some other mechanism at work that keeps decent Operative/Scoundrel players away from the spec, and that other mechanism is probably not just the aesthetics of the Scrapper shotgun or the Concealment knives.

 

The reason it gets less attention (not considering name recognition) than conceal or healing is pretty simple. With healing you see probes and green cast bars that alert you to the healer. With a conceal op he opens up and does his chain stun thing. The lethality op, starts off under the radar most of the time. Someone said it before, dots start ticking before ppl realize what is going on, at which point you are in full swing on your burst.

 

I do agree with you that if decent players want to catch us, we will be caught.

 

As I see it, the problem is that once this class gets singled out by just one solitary opponent, it is in serious trouble. I do not mean "focused" in the sense of multiple attackers focusing you. As someone correctly observed, any class is going to be screwed in that situation (some more than others). I am talking about a situation where just one enemy decides it is time to kill you.

 

By singled out it sounds like you mean drag him away from the group battle into a 1v1. Generally if I get someone on me that I'm not trying to kill, I just try to cc/slow/get help so I can go about my business. If I must turn my attention to him, they generally pay for it. Mind you, healers are involved since I predominantly stay near the big group for mass effect.

 

This happens quite a bit where someone decides it is time to kill me. Some of the time it is more than 1 guy, as my video showed. It doesn't always end with a happy ending with multiples are involved, but I generally take my fair share with me.

 

To start, why would one enemy decide to kill you? A counterargument might state that Lethality players are on the bottom of the target totem pole. By that logic, it makes sense to kill everyone else, such as healers, smashers, snipers, etc. before killing you. But that just assumes you are playing against ignorant and bad opponents. Experienced players know what an unchecked Lethality Op will do; spread DOT love to everyone on their team, overtax the healer, etc. The solution, especially if you are on a premade team, is just to send 1 guy to take down the Op.

 

This is a big problem I've seen. When you make it a priority to kill the lethality op, you are spending less time on higher priority targets. That's the beauty of it. My dots still tick when I'm dead, when I'm LoS, when I'm CCed, when I'm out of range. You can't say the same for other classes/specs, because when they are out of range, dead, LoS, CCed, their dps drops tremendously. Sure, my burst goes away, but dmg is still being dealt and has to be dealt with.

 

Most classes are prepared for this 1v1. Scrappers (the Dirty Fighting/Lethality counterpart) live for the duel. Snipers, the other Agent AC, are at least quite good at it, if not "built" explicitly for it. So are Marauders, Juggs, Sins, Pyros, Sorcs, Snipers, and basically every other class I can think of except healers, which don't really have "matchups" persay. All of these classes have at least some offensive and defensive game in the 1v1 situation. Yes, anyone can get help from their team's healers, tanks/taunts/guards, and other DPS. But you, like me, have played a ton of WZs, and know that you are often completely on your own in a fight against a single opponent. Other AOE effects might clip you, but this guy is gunning for you and you need to do something about it.

 

Just because we aren't the best 1v1 class, doesn't mean we are terrible at it. Sure, if a conceal op gets the opener on me I'm at a severe disadvantage and will prob lose without help. If I get the opener on him, he has to use globals on defense and a cooldown to TRY and neutralize me. If dodge isn't up, he's screwed.

 

My point is, if you put any class into their weakness they are going to perform below average.

 

And that is where the Lethality Op seems to run into big trouble. They can definitely evade the opponent for a while, but they actually can't kill the guy without getting help. A number of Lethality players have admitted in this very thread to being completely screwed in the 1v1, resorting to flight tactics, disappearing into a crowd, getting help, and other options. Short of this ally intervention, however, the Lethality player is not going to be able to deal with the threat on their own.

 

I have almost 0 issue in 1v1s assuming everything is equal. Some combos are an uphill battle, but maybe with a little RNG love you can pull it out. I never consider myself screwed in that regard.

 

Not to be a shameless promoter :-) but did you even watch my videos? I have quite a few 1v1s and other combos of me being outmanned in both of my vids. Some of which include some pretty good players for the opposition.

 

For example, let's look at Sins. I honestly have no idea how a decent Sin would ever lose to a similarly geared and skilled Lethality player if they had comprable CDs up. Tanksins have a gigantic 5s Shroud, a slow-cleansing Force Speed (which also gap closes), a stealth opener, TONS of slows of their own, a pull, and huge survivability CDs. Deception Sins have lots of slows (Force Slow CDR and duration increase, Spike slow), great CC (Low Slash), terrifying melee burst, comparable move speed, 25% mitigation in Blackoutm and still that Shroud and stealth opener. And of course Madness Sins have more or less the same DOT potential as Lethality does, a really scary root, self-heals off of the DOTs, and STILL the Shroud + stealth opener.

 

Scissors, meet rock?

 

We could do a similar rundown for Marauders (especially carnage guys with all their charges and roots and slows and cleanses and move speed bonuses),

 

Use dodge on Gored ravage and that buys you MORE than enough time to survive to line up burst.

 

Sorcs (who do everything that Lethality does but at 30 meters instead of 10),

 

Everything? Really? By everything I think you mean the dotting portion. If you haven't played a sorc at 50, then you wouldn't know that their dot spec plays very differently than lethality op.

 

and of course Scrappers/Concealment (who can cleanse all of the slows, have the tendon blast snare, the Sneak 50% move speed bonus, an Evasion that completely wrecks Lethality DOTs, and a completely brutal and almost unrecoverable opener). Personally, as a Scrapper, I make it my business to kill those Lethality guys whenever I see them because I know that the time I "waste" killing them will send them back to the respawn, save my team a ton of damage,and still give me time to go help kill others before they return.

 

Now don't take this the wrong way, but your statements are seeming a little bias towards the class/spec you play. Just the verbage you use kind of gives it away...."brutal" "almost unrecoverable" "wrecks". Pretty strong words that weren't being used with any other class or spec.

 

The thing is, we can theorize all day long about how a spec would perform in different situations, but it won't change anything. I'll prob end up disagreeing with most everyone, because I just don't have the issues that others might. I know where the spec issues lie, but I'll be patient for fixes in the upcoming patches/expansion.

 

But isn't that true of other classes? If they get targeted by one player, won't they also die a lot?" Absolutely not. All of those classes I just mentioned have awesome 1v1 games. But as I keep hearing, the Lethality player is stuck in a run-and-hide-and-pray mentality when someone marks him for death. That seems like a major problem with the class.

 

Again, none of this is to knock any Lethality players here, their play style, the quality of their enemies/servers, etc. This is just an observation from my experience about a potential problem with the class.

 

I recognize you as a knowledgeable scrapper, and hope my disagreeing with you doesn't ruffly your feathers. Hearing the same arguments over and over gets old real quick.

[ktkenshinx]

The reason it gets less attention (not considering name recognition) than conceal or healing is pretty simple. With healing you see probes and green cast bars that alert you to the healer. With a conceal op he opens up and does his chain stun thing. The lethality op, starts off under the radar most of the time. Someone said it before, dots start ticking before ppl realize what is going on, at which point you are in full swing on your burst.

I definitely concede that Lethality players will probably go unnoticed for at least the first minute or so of a WZ. In that first minute, it can be hard to figure out who is healing and who is guarding those healers, let alone what the different DPSers are up to. Of course, after that first few minutes, any decent opponent (especially coordinated premades) is going to figure out who is doing what and start sending players off to do their thing. At that point, the Lethality guy is going to get singled out.

By singled out it sounds like you mean drag him away from the group battle into a 1v1. Generally if I get someone on me that I'm not trying to kill, I just try to cc/slow/get help so I can go about my business. If I must turn my attention to him, they generally pay for it. Mind you, healers are involved since I predominantly stay near the big group for mass effect.

The group mass effect cuts both ways, however, so it should equal out in the end (assuming relatively equal teams). Both of you will eat some extra AOE, both of you will have some heals, and both of you will catch a little extra damage from enemies. In some situations, you could definitely force an over-extension if the guy was too committed to killing you, and this would NOT be reciprocal (i.e. you wouldn't over extend into his group to try and escape). So in that situation where overextension is possible, such as in Hypergate, the Lethality player would have an escape advantage. But of course, as your video shows, there are plenty of times where that isn't an issue.

This is a big problem I've seen. When you make it a priority to kill the lethality op, you are spending less time on higher priority targets. That's the beauty of it. My dots still tick when I'm dead, when I'm LoS, when I'm CCed, when I'm out of range. You can't say the same for other classes/specs, because when they are out of range, dead, LoS, CCed, their dps drops tremendously. Sure, my burst goes away, but dmg is still being dealt and has to be dealt with.

For me, and for decent teams that know the Lethality spec, this makes it a priority to kill Lethality players quickly. If left completely unchecked, they will rarely die and they will stick DOTs on the entire team. Yes, those DOTs will tick after your death, but a healer can deal with them methodically. But, of course, that only works if the DOT applicator is himself out of the picture for at least a bunch of GCDs. And there are a number of DPS classes that are well-equipped to fulfill that role of taking the Lethality guy out of the picture.

My point is, if you put any class into their weakness they are going to perform below average.

I totally agree. Using the Scrapper example, if I get caught by a Pyrotech using a random Flame Sweep before I can open, AND I don't have all my CDs and he does, I am going to be back at the respawn pretty quickly. But that's why I almost always try and consider classes as if all things are equal. That is, where all CDs are up. But we cannot guarantee who will start the fight unless our class is designed to pick fights on their terms (Sins/Ops, Mars/Juggs).

I have almost 0 issue in 1v1s assuming everything is equal. Some combos are an uphill battle, but maybe with a little RNG love you can pull it out. I never consider myself screwed in that regard.

 

Not to be a shameless promoter :-) but did you even watch my videos? I have quite a few 1v1s and other combos of me being outmanned in both of my vids. Some of which include some pretty good players for the opposition.

I am always suspicious of statements like "I have almost 0 issues in 1v1s assuming everything is equal". By that logic, any number of the following statements would have to be true: Lethality is the best 1v1 class in the game and it just flew under everyone's radar, you are better geared/better skilled than all your opponents, you make zero mistakes, your opponents make lots of mistakes, and/or you are just overstating your case.

 

For Scrappers, I know that the Pyrotech and Sin matchup is just plain hard. I have LOTS of issues in those matchups even when they are totally in my favor with CDs and openers. Even more "favorable" matchups, especially against guys like Carnage Marauders, can still be determined by small errors, a single CD, a tiny hiccup of lag, a quick consumable popped at the perfect time, and so on. And every class has their enemies.

 

For example, you seem to acknowledge how awful the Sin matchup is, but then you also say that you have "almost 0 issues in 1v1s". Does that mean you don't fight a lot of Sins? Or are they bad/less geared? That is the sort of inconsistency that makes me wary.

 

Also, I did watch the video and did note the fights you were in. Great watch and good kills. That said, I just don't put a lot of stock in videos because they, quite reasonably, represent just the highlights and best-of moments. You are certainly good at your spec, but the potential for clip selection bias is too big for me to ignore.

Now don't take this the wrong way, but your statements are seeming a little bias towards the class/spec you play. Just the verbage you use kind of gives it away...."brutal" "almost unrecoverable" "wrecks". Pretty strong words that weren't being used with any other class or spec.

I definitely fall into rhetorical/overstatement traps, and this is a great example of it. But even if we neutered down the language (which we should, because it's super biased on my part) it would still be a true statement. Ops/Scraps should be pretty regularly beating Lethality, both in the all-things-equal situation, but also in the chaotic WZ situation where some CDs are ready and some are not.

 

The same is true of Marauders/Juggs and Sorcs. The warriors just have so much darn CC and gap closing, whereas the Sorc just has so much range, DOT damage, and kiting potential. I acknowledge that Lethality probably has an easy time with classes like Snipers and Mercs. It also definitely has a better match against PTs than do other Ops. But it seems to fall apart against decent Mars, Juggs, Sorcs, Sins, and Ops. To me, that remains a glaring vulnerability.

I recognize you as a knowledgeable scrapper, and hope my disagreeing with you doesn't ruffly your feathers. Hearing the same arguments over and over gets old real quick.

Nothing ruffles my feathers less than polite and intelligent conversation, which is what is going on in this thread.

[Ravashakk]

I was mainly referring to being out of stealth when 1v1ing a sin. It would be unfair to give either side the opener, so neither gets it (which is the case in group battles more often than not). In that situation, outside of shroud ill eat them alive. If they get the opener, I'm in trouble. Same with scrapper.

 

The 0 issues is referring to true 1v1s. Not a 1v1 where I'm energy starved and at 65% health and some chucklehead wants an easy kb. Ie if we are talking a non stealth class, I get the opener. True 1v1s rarely happen for me. Mainly when node guarding...and that rarely happens. My team wants "big daddy deeps" where the action is (their name, not mine) :-P

Edited February 14, 2013 by Ravashakk

[POPsi]

 

I can assure you that no class can catch me unless I'm extremely unlucky and all my escape abilities are on CD. And usually the ones that try, get killed because they just leapt to me in the middle of my team and are now stunned (by me).

 

And because of counterstrike, even the Marauder's slow on their leap, can't stop me from stunning and running.

 

I still think a concealment can take on a lethality player any time and win. But that's because concealment ops usually pick their own battles and not the other way around.

[ktkenshinx]

I was mainly referring to being out of stealth when 1v1ing a sin. It would be unfair to give either side the opener, so neither gets it (which is the case in group battles more often than not). In that situation, outside of shroud ill eat them alive. If they get the opener, I'm in trouble. Same with scrapper.

In this case, I totally disagree. Lethality Ops spend a huge amount of combat time out of stealth. This is true both in my experience with these players and also in your own video. Once the battle starts, you stick around the edges, fire down DOTs, and let those DOTs keep you in combat unless you use your 120s CD Cloaking Screen. Or, as you said, you mingle in with the giant brawl. The vast, vast majority of the time, the Lethality player is out of stealth.

 

That is not true with either the Scrapper or the Sin. Both of these classes get a lot of restealth time both because a) their DOTs only tick on a target that they are focusing and killing, and b) they always try and LOS/reposition to get out of combat as soon as possible to get the opener back in. Technically a Lethality can do both of those things, but to do so you would have to totally change your play style; you can't sneak away from combat with all those DOTs ticking away as you apply more to your enemies.

 

The same goes for Jugs and Mars, both of whom can initiate every 15 seconds from across the fight. I agree that lethality ops have some clear advantages in fights, but one of those is definitely not picking battles.

The 0 issues is referring to true 1v1s. Not a 1v1 where I'm energy starved and at 65% health and some chucklehead wants an easy kb. Ie if we are talking a non stealth class, I get the opener. True 1v1s rarely happen for me. Mainly when node guarding...and that rarely happens. My team wants "big daddy deeps" where the action is (their name, not mine) :-P

I am also referring to true 1v1s, and in a true 1v1 against an equally geared, skilled, and CD-ready opponent, every class has its bad matchups.

 

For my class, its Sins and Pyrotechs. Even if I get off the opener these matchups can be just miserable. If the player is bad and messes up his abilities out of panic or stress, I stand a chance. Even a good chance. But a robotically consistent Pyrotech is terrifying.

 

For Lethality, I imagine that Pyrotech actually isn't that terrible. I would probably put it at a medium difficulty matchup on the easy-->medium-->hard scale (25% of total resources expended --> 50% of resources expended --> 75% of resources expended). PTs have no slow removal (short of a terrible Pyro talent, and even then a Lethality player could just re-slow), bad slows themselves (a 30% slow on a 2s duration), terrible gap closers (grapple), over-dependence on melee range, and comparatively underwhelming DOTs. So I believe that PT would not be one of your hard matchups even in a true 1v1.

 

But Sins are another matter. These guys are definitely in the hard bracket along with Concealment. And I have seen no good evidence to suggest that either Marauders or Juggs are not also up there. Madness Sorcs probably give a Lethality player a decent fight, but the Lethality guy should probably still be winning that most of the time. But even so, Sins/Concealment/Mars (Rage/Carnage)/Juggs (Rage/Tank) seem to have a ton of clear advantages in the "true 1v1".

Edited February 14, 2013 by ktkenshinx

[texoc]

I still think a concealment can take on a lethality player any time and win. But that's because concealment ops usually pick their own battles and not the other way around.

 

And its still funny when they get an opener on a sniper and then get smoked alive as soon as he turns arround.

At high level gameplay and classes played to max potential there are no counterclasses. It all comes down to how you outperform your enemy and what tools you have at your disposal when they fight starts.

[ktkenshinx]

And its still funny when they get an opener on a sniper and then get smoked alive as soon as he turns arround.

At high level gameplay and classes played to max potential there are no counterclasses. It all comes down to how you outperform your enemy and what tools you have at your disposal when they fight starts.

Scrappers that lose to Snipers after an opening are either playing Huttball, have no CDs of their own up, or just plain terrible. Even at the highest levels of skill and gear there are absolutely counterclasses. You won't notice this in one or two fights. But over the course of hundreds of fights, those patterns emerge. And yeah, that might be a consequence of good/bad game design, but it is still there.

 

For example, decent Snipers should not be losing a lot of fights to Marauders. Good Sorcs should be doing great against Pyrotechs. Skilled Pyrotechs should have at least a favorable matchup to Scrappers.

 

Then again, there are a lot of fights that are less extreme that absolutely come down to skill, experience, adaptability, external events, and, of course, CDs. A Carnage Marauder vs. a Deception Sin. Awesome fight. Absolutely no clear winner. Madness Sorc vs. Telekinetics Sage. Another great fight. Another unclear winner. So in that sense, I agree with you that there are many matchups which just come down to all of those factors I listed above. But there are other fights which do come down to class design.

[tatatan]

This is always the excuse I read...."well you were playing scrubs that didn't target you or don't know how to play their class". It is a bunch of BS IMO. It is a well known fact on my server that I generally get focused no matter which spec I'm playing. I generally take more dmg than most of the players, including the healers. Feel free to check the tanking records....I'm in most of them.

Any class with pocket healer can be good. If i play heals, i'll rather heal marauder though, than lethality op, sorry

The point is, if you set up a situation to play to someone's weaknesses, of course they are going to come out less than optimal.

this is exactly what i talk about too.

Like you said though, my server has 0 decent players, and therefore is the reason your situation has never happened to me. lol

stop rediculing my opinion, i understand you like the class, i like it too, but you fall in with other ppl making videos, where you show only the strenght of the class, which after some time gets just boring ...

I'm already tired of picked video secvences of e.g. concealment tearing apart newb in one rotation (=yeah, concealment need nerf) and similar, in your video, i can say, you have very good healers, that is a fact. Also, you play good, that's fact too. But sorry, in your vid i did not see your team in stress, most guys full health all time .. this leaves you being able receive enough heals to run around and have fun.

[tatatan]

Originally Posted by tatatan View Post

Only time, when Lethality is good is during the Voidstar offensive. That's only time i respec to Lethality, otherwise, medic. If you dont go heals you just hurt your team.

yea, you can have 'fun' with leth. but the 'fun' die off quickly, when you realize, you could actually win those matches, if you actually healed, compared to running around, poisoning everyone.

Or even better, just be a FoTM reroller, and make a smash mara, with this mentality of yours.

 

Or even better, just be a FoTM reroller, and make a smash mara, with this mentality of yours.

 

Mobius, sorry, didnt mean to poke you Is it really bad that i wish my team to win? So i go DPS on offensive and medic on defensive?

I feel satisfied only when i know i did all i could for my team to win (and i have same 'fun' factor in healing and in dpsing too, so really, no matter for me).

My point is, that simply put, OPs DPS is weaker, than compared to other classes. So going DPS you just hurt your team. This is perfectly OK while facing weaker opponents, but when situation is at stakes and balanced out, you're better be a medic (in most cases, not all cases, i mind).

That is a fact - and no video showing how shiney Lethality is, will change this.

[Enexemander]

Scrappers that lose to Snipers after an opening are either playing Huttball, have no CDs of their own up, or just plain terrible. Even at the highest levels of skill and gear there are absolutely counterclasses. You won't notice this in one or two fights. But over the course of hundreds of fights, those patterns emerge. And yeah, that might be a consequence of good/bad game design, but it is still there.

.

 

Eh, not really. With a good sniper you'll only get hidden strike as your opener before they use their break, cover pulse and throw a dot on you. From there you've got the choice to either blow a cooldown and restealth or try walking back up to the sniper. That second option will absolutely get you obliterated so I wouldn't try it.

 

I have a 50 sniper and 50 gunslinger. I respect the few good operatives on Pot5, but I don't fear them. If an op jumps me, I feel like I have more than a fighting chance. Plus I'll mark you so that if you open on anyone else the entire match, I'll swap targets and obliterate you. Since you're an op and *could* be a healer, the rest of the pugs will do the same. The one thing a dps op doesn't want to do is be focused constantly, so it's really a bit of a Pyrrhic Victory even if you do catch me without cooldowns the first time you jump me.