50 pvp vs. 10-49 pvp

[xxdragonragexx]

I have to agree on the less premades.

At 50, people do premades because it is easier to gear up and own other players. There is a big incentive to premade at 50. At 10-49, there isn't that much of an incentive.

 

There is still a big gear gap though in any bracket. However, you will hardly ever see 5 min/maxed geared player premade in lowbie bracket.

[Tamanous]

There are several differences of course but the #1 is gear difference. In pre-50 you only have green->blue->1 tier of purple. You have several tiers of gear on 50 bracket AND massive ranges of expertise on top of it.

 

Pre-50 also has tons of pre-mades. I play in two guilds (one each side) and every day we make groups to do pvp in pre-50. We come across many other pre-mades and a few who take pre-50 as seriously as 50 pvp (they uber gear and crush with their alts just like they do with their 50 mains). There are TONS of pre-mades but not as many regular teams practicing for ranked as there are in 50. That is difference most miss. Most of the pre-mades aren't that great because of this but there are indeed a ton.

 

You can easily tell who are the experiences players too. A huge % of pre-50 pvp are alts. Those players know their class and their enemy just like in 50 bracket. Only ranked warzones are full of the best players. Non-ranked 50 is a huge mix of players with many simply there for fun and never planning on ranked. They will never be that great at team based pvp ... just like in pre-50. What we all universally face is the transition of pwning in pre-50 and then getting rolled in 50 bracket when a fresh 50 with little gear. If you pwned in pre-50 it means you know how to play well. So why the difference? Gear ... gear ... gear ... and gear.

 

If there was a 50 bracket where you could ONLY wear gear from a single gear (ie only recruit gear or specialized gear made for it) you would have the a warzone bracket more fun that anything currently in this game. Individual and team skill would be the only factor in winning (Aside from ongoing class balance). Yet fair and balanced pvp isn't even offered in this game. This is why pre-50 is more fun. It is the only bracket even close to being on a even playing field despite being utterly flawed itself. This is how broken 50 pvp is ... when a trash heap as bad as pre-50 is considered the most fun.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Tamanous

[Baalzamon]

Can't belive people are loving 10-49 for being 'fair and square'.

Filled with bads, afkers, muppets, donkeys and objective ignoring kids with god complex.

and there are premades. and they are even more deadly.

awesome.

 

And those people dont exist in the 50 bracket? HAH!

[Atramar]

And those people dont exist in the 50 bracket? HAH!

 

They do. But, half of games in 1-49 people just leave nodes without a word. it causes most stupid loses ever. yes, 50s has their downs, people not looking right direction, not doing incs. but on 10-49 is just pure ridiculus.

 

incompetence, lack of abilities, skill, will to win, gear and ignorance mixed together in one big bowl.

How many times you were on node and that other pug told 'go help others, I'll stay and defend' only to find out, that after you left he left either afk or followed a bait with no calling incs?

my gf slaps my bald head if I play to much 10-49 without atleast 1 guild mate as I swear alot out loud on stupidity of some people. luckly there is no VOIP built in...

note, I'm in IT dev business, I'm very patient person, but team play and objectives in 10-49 drives me mad (half of time, other half I enjoy crushing any one who tries to solo ninja my node or those 1 vs 2 where 2 commandos trying to take my annihilation marauder down. oh the lols - so it's a tie)

Edited February 1, 2013 by Atramar

[mattycutts]

For a completely new player it's actually easier to gear a 50 than a char while leveling. Assuming that you don't have any comms saved for 50 it will only a take a few days to get in full wh. If you have comms saved you'll be able to skip the "grind" (notice the quotation marks) altogether.

 

I'm currently leveling a char on a new server and it is hell to not have an established Legacy and alts who can provide you with stuff. To be able to keep a modded set somewhat up to par you have to run all the heroics and other crap youre not interested in for planetary comms. The problem with that is just that it also makes you level faster than intended so by the time you get to use those comms you'll be on your way to outlevel them. It's also a problem if you want to take it slow and save up warzone comms. GTN has totally unreasonable prices too for new players. What new player can spend 45K or more on implants as lvl 21 or 8K per mod as a lvl 13?

 

level 10 agent (not sniper or opperative) crap gear, top dps, killing the level 40-49 type guys. how can anyone say its harder in lowbie pvp with gear lol i love 50 pvp and it is fun once you got some of ya gear sorted but lowbie pvp is far easier than 50 pvp and less dependant on gear etc. that agent was me ofc, my main is a 50 sniper so i know class ok and joined pvp match moment i hit 10 but forgot where quest giver was for advance classs lol so did match as a agent and damn no class like agent for lowbie pvp lol

[foxmob]

There are several differences of course but the #1 is gear difference. In pre-50 you only have green->blue->1 tier of purple. You have several tiers of gear on 50 bracket AND massive ranges of expertise on top of it..

 

had to stop reading right there. there are only 3 tiers of gear in 50s: recruit, wh, ewh. the expertise on wh and ewh is the same (some variants of mods have different hp/exp, but that's true of both tiers). you're only adding main stat and side stats other than exp.

 

meanwhile, lowbie mods, augs, and/or gear needs to be updated every 2-5 levels (there are fewer enh than armorings, but basically every 3 levels). thus, lowbies *should* be chasing gear constantly. if they don't, they get absolutely steamrolled by those of us who do. you think a recruit dies fast against an ewh? dude...put any sub 50 up against a geared and aug'd pyro. put 3 of them on the pyro. the potential gear gap is *considerably* wider in lowbie. I can't believe ppl are even debating this. I'm a pyro PT with more hp than 99% of the lowbie tanks, and I last longer too. I'm saying all this me me me stuff, but it's the gear. the disparity is massive.

[Technohic]

lol Ran into a premade in lowbie yesterday. Quite the challenge to take out a well protected and guarded healer when you don't have all your abilities yet. Its hard when you do, but when you don't? Just lol. I don't really care as I found it to be a challenge to some degree; and in another I find it funny watching some of my team in their terrible attempts to go "man to man" on them.

 

 

I guess one thing to be said about sub-50 is, you don't have a weekly or anything that depends on winning. It's like pewee soccer where everyone gets a trophy.

[cashogy_reborn]

Translation:

 

You can't win with equal gear and without a premade rolling a PUG, so you consider it "unbalanced." But when you are a premade at level 50 with a huge gear and class disparity rolling PUGs everything is fine and dandy.

-----------

I've dominated with every class in pre-50 pretty much the entire way in quest greens. Even at level 10 I've been effective. At level 50 I can only be effective if I'm using a FOTM class, have at least optimized 2nd tier gear (so now that would be WH, since BM is gone) and if I'm going against another PUG. If I'm in recruit, with a lame class (basically any class not PT, Mara, Sin) or heaven forbid on a PUG against a geared, FOTM stacked premade on voice comm, I won't stand a chance.

 

The gear in this game at level 50 absolutely ruins any class balance the game had. Some classes scale very well while others simply are not viable no matter what you do with them. And then the massive difference in gear is just stunning. You have something like 1/3rd the HP and do 1/3 the damage as your geared counterparts. No matter how good you think you are, nobody is going to make up that type of absurd handicap.

 

They claim they are lowering that gear discrepancy, who knows. I know the people that play this game don't want a level playing field so I expect some difference, but I seriously doubt Bioware can find that healthy medium.

 

LOL :D:D

 

where to start, oh where to start....

 

bah nevermind. not worth the infraction points. do know you are very wrong sir

[abhaxus]

Forgetting one tier of lowbie gear... Legendary/legacy. On my PT I had 2 pieces of birthright gear, plus the mastercraft aim barrel from the scavenger hunt world event. At level 33 I was putting out 400k without breaking a sweat. The amount of advantages twinks (or really any player with multiple alts and deep pockets) have in lowbie far exceeds that of an EWH player in 50 pvp. There will never be a WZ with one elite war hero on a team with 7 recruits. Happens all the time in lowbie. The ONLY strategy that matters in lowbie is healing the twinked out PT or sniper.

[criminalheretic]

Can't belive people are loving 10-49 for being 'fair and square'.

Filled with bads, afkers, muppets, donkeys and objective ignoring kids with god complex.

and there are premades. and they are even more deadly.

awesome.

 

Majestic beasts...donkeys.

 

10-49 has more new players on average, is less organized, and yes it does have fewer premades. If you are doing fine in 10-49 but really struggle in 50, it's not because 10-49 is more balanced, its because it's less balanced, but you are on the better end of the balance disparity. 50's is better balanced, but that balance is achieved with a higher average skill level. Balance is subjective. If you feel a pool with a lower than average skill level is "more" balanced, it's because YOU have a lower than average skill level. If you think a pool with a higher average skill level is more balanced, it's because YOU have a higher than average skill level.

 

Does being level 11 suck worse than being a recruit geared 50? I don't know, I do fine in either scenario. But I will say that the game never seems more out of balance than when I am level 49. I literally EXPECT to win 1v2's and the occasional 1v3 when I am a geared 49. I would not expect to beat 3 people ever in the 50 bracket, and only beat 2 at a time if they are horrible.

[foxmob]

I literally EXPECT to win 1v2's and the occasional 1v3 when I am a geared 49. I would not expect to beat 3 people ever in the 50 bracket, and only beat 2 at a time if they are horrible.

 

^ this. but make it 40-49. you can't expect to roll any random 2-3 ppl in 50s the way you can in lowbie.

 

/thread for me

[VigDiath]

I used to think Sub 50 PvP was fun but lately it has been annoying lately. I think it's mostly a break down in communication, teams giving up too soon, not listening or paying attention or just bads playing.

 

On Jedi Covenant Imp Side sometimes it's just horrible to be an Imp player.

[malicnchains]

The craziest part about opinions is ...well...there opinions.In my experiance 1-49 bracket was 100xs better.I was able to take down level 49s at 15 plus, especially if they were bad.Then I finally got to the 50s bracket (with my full welfare set might I add) only to find myself getting absolutely raped by pretty much most classes without lubrication over an over again.It really wasnt fun for awhile...So finally my Sorc has full WH gear and although I can take a bit more damage I still eat 7.5k damage abilities on the regular.Im all about the sorcer class so I stuck it out, but (in my opinion) 50s pvp is where you see the blantant imbalances with in classes and gear. Edited February 2, 2013 by malicnchains

[Tamanous]

Double post Edited February 2, 2013 by Tamanous

[Tamanous]

had to stop reading right there. there are only 3 tiers of gear in 50s: recruit, wh, ewh. the expertise on wh and ewh is the same (some variants of mods have different hp/exp, but that's true of both tiers). you're only adding main stat and side stats other than exp.

 

meanwhile, lowbie mods, augs, and/or gear needs to be updated every 2-5 levels (there are fewer enh than armorings, but basically every 3 levels). thus, lowbies *should* be chasing gear constantly. if they don't, they get absolutely steamrolled by those of us who do. you think a recruit dies fast against an ewh? dude...put any sub 50 up against a geared and aug'd pyro. put 3 of them on the pyro. the potential gear gap is *considerably* wider in lowbie. I can't believe ppl are even debating this. I'm a pyro PT with more hp than 99% of the lowbie tanks, and I last longer too. I'm saying all this me me me stuff, but it's the gear. the disparity is massive.

 

 

You missed the point entirely and enforced mine while doing it. 50 pvp gear ratios are massive. Why? Because each tier can be tweaked by additional expertise, augments and pve mod swaps. The average health ranges in pre-50 is between 11k and 14k. The average health ranges in 50 bracket is 15k to 25k (tanks as high as 28k). Most of the other stats scale at the same level so a 15k player is massively less powerful than a 23-25k health players in all areas. The average power level in pre-50 is mid range as the vast majority enter into the warzones with the same gear they are leveling in at that time. Typically a mix of colours and very few augments with ZERO expertise. 50 pvp has a huge minority or even the majority with minimal WH, fully augmented and with optimal expertise (an entirely new factor to contemplate).

 

Your twinked pryo is a very small minority in pre-50 pvp. You said so yourself. The average power curve in 50 bracket is much much higher and fresh 50's facing the gear grind get steam rolled over and over again. A large % of players only pvp for fun so committing to the grind it tedious for them. You simply ignore too many facts. Only 3 tiers of gear? Complete ignorance of the facts. It scales from basic recruit through EWH with differing levels of augments, expertise (a non-factor in pre-50) and pve mods swaps with far different scaling than pre-50 gear tiers.

 

The effect is that pre-50 pvp is more fun "on average" and 50 pvp is less fun "on average" due to the differing placements of average power scale. Pvp shouldn't even have gear scaling at all. Pre-mades are supposed to be an element in pvp. Groups are supposed to use team work to win in warzones designed with objective based game play in mind. Individual skill and team work should be the ONLY factor in a sport. 2 equally skilled teams will never face off on equal terms if such gear differences are allowed to exist. That is the fundamental flaw of Swtor pvp. Gear scaling totally trivializes warzone objectives. They should have never even entered gear grind into it. There are many other rewards to offer players.

 

I already stated that pre-50 pvp is a complete mess. It just happens to be far less of a mess than 50 pvp.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Tamanous

[CharlieBrown]

lol Ran into a premade in lowbie yesterday. Quite the challenge to take out a well protected and guarded healer when you don't have all your abilities yet. Its hard when you do, but when you don't? Just lol. I don't really care as I found it to be a challenge to some degree; and in another I find it funny watching some of my team in their terrible attempts to go "man to man" on them.

 

 

I guess one thing to be said about sub-50 is, you don't have a weekly or anything that depends on winning. It's like pewee soccer where everyone gets a trophy.

 

This, in a nutshell, is why I love healing in lowbie PVP. I get guarded and defended religiously when I play with my guild. Every game will produce a few Rambo players who think they can survive the onslaught long enough to burn me down, but I honestly can't remember that happening more than 2 or 3 times.

 

I have cheap green augments and Mk-3 kits in my gear with level appropriate blue mods and enhancements on my operative. I typically sit around 14k HP after bolster and that's more than everyone in the match 99% of the time.

 

Mk-3 & Mk-4 augment kits are so cheap that everyone leveling an alt should really get a set of orange gear they like and slap them on instantly. Buy green augments ever 5 levels and you won't even break the bank. Does a great job of extending the life on your gear if you end up over leveling a planet by the time you get enough commendations to buy much of anything.

[Tamanous]

This, in a nutshell, is why I love healing in lowbie PVP. I get guarded and defended religiously when I play with my guild. Every game will produce a few Rambo players who think they can survive the onslaught long enough to burn me down, but I honestly can't remember that happening more than 2 or 3 times.

 

I have cheap green augments and Mk-3 kits in my gear with level appropriate blue mods and enhancements on my operative. I typically sit around 14k HP after bolster and that's more than everyone in the match 99% of the time.

 

Mk-3 & Mk-4 augment kits are so cheap that everyone leveling an alt should really get a set of orange gear they like and slap them on instantly. Buy green augments ever 5 levels and you won't even break the bank. Does a great job of extending the life on your gear if you end up over leveling a planet by the time you get enough commendations to buy much of anything.

 

 

This is entirely the point of my previous argument. The only way to make yourself more powerful in pvp is to improve your gear. The team with better gear is also typically the better team. You simply geared yourself with augments along side of basic gear optimized close to your level and clearly showed that the average gear level of pre-50 pvp is still lower than that. This is the basic land scape of pre-50 pvp. The average power curve is quite low. The average player who simply wants some pvp fun can enter and typically be facing very few twinks. In 50 pvp the average power curve is far far above that of the fresh 50 or even one with 50% WH fully augmented.

 

The gear you described as being better than the average is about the same power curve of recruit gear ... yet you admit to being better geared than average. It is the massive increase in average gear that exists in 50 pvp which makes it far less fun for most players. Nobody argues against gear equality. What they hate is being so massively below the power curve for so long once they hit 50. You have to suffer just to try to get on par with others. This has nothing to do with skill or learning how to become better at pvp. The gear grind is meaningless. It should be taken out of the game for pvp. Other rewards should be put in. Rankings, titles, non-combat gifts, new orange sets with looks only available through pvp, etc, etc, etc ...

[ExpectWar]

I just started playing again but I can't pvp at max level because all my characters have battlemaster gear and I get killed wayy to quick to be having any fun. I really hate how it would takes weeks to get the same gear to be competitive again.. and that's only on 1 character so I pretty much would have to main a character.

 

So i'm waiting for the next expansion and leveling the last 3 classes I need threw warzones in the meantime. Then it will be a even playing field like when this game first came out.

 

Edit: Correct me if i'm wrong on taking a few weeks to gear up, because I would love to play at max level. Thanks!

Edited February 2, 2013 by ExpectWar

[Washingtoon]

Edit: Correct me if i'm wrong on taking a few weeks to gear up, because I would love to play at max level. Thanks!

Cost per armor piece/MH/OH is between 875 and 1500 comms, relics and implants are cheaper, so I guess it depends on how much you play. I'm always trading my rated comms for normal comms so that's 200/day by just doing the daily. 1-3 hours per piece so if you just play a little every night it shouldnt take more than a week. Play a lot and it won't take more than a few days. You can start worrying about min/maxing ones you have all the armorings.

[ExpectWar]

Cost per armor piece/MH/OH is between 875 and 1500 comms, relics and implants are cheaper, so I guess it depends on how much you play. I'm always trading my rated comms for normal comms so that's 200/day by just doing the daily. 1-3 hours per piece so if you just play a little every night it shouldnt take more than a week. Play a lot and it won't take more than a few days. You can start worrying about min/maxing ones you have all the armorings.

 

Sweet! That's way faster then I thought!

[foxmob]

lowbie is easy because A) more idiots. B) much larger gear gap.

 

it's not rocket science. you spend one week pvping at 50 and you have full wh at the minimum. that's all you need to compete in 50s. ewh has the same expertise. many changes borked pvp since 1.4. the narrowing of the gear gap at 50 was not one of them.

 

meanwhile, anyone can jump on the GTN or, if they're into it, craft a full set of purple everything every 3-5 levels. here's the kicker though: if you don't craft/buy new gear every 3-5 levels, guess what? yeah. you might as well be wearing greens. the point? you're *constantly* grinding gear in lowbie. every level you ding, your current gear becomes that much less effective. that doesn't happen at 50. enter 50 with 2.7k reg comms, 4.5k rated comms, and BAM you're basically full wh out of the gate. this mythical full recruit gear guy you're talking about is someone who hasn't pvp'd before 50 or simply doesn't know what he's doing. but not to worry, even then he only has to get faced rolled a week or two and BAM! he's full wh too. no need to grind ewh to compete. but by all means, go for it if you wanna maximize your effectiveness.

 

50s is "harder" because the players are better, they have their abilities, and they travel in more competent packs. as far as gear goes, anyone who wants to can own lowbie on gear alone. that isn't true of 50s.

Edited February 2, 2013 by foxmob

[Smashbrother]

Anyone who claims to beat a 40+ as a level level 10 is either lying, or fighting one of those lazies who didn't bother upgrading their gear and have 11k hp.

[FROIDBUSTER]

Having recently replayed the entire 10-49 pvp experience on an alt (the guild and I actually rerolled specifically to do it), I think most of 'Wow this is great!' experiences was just my own ignorance speaking.

 

For one thing its' much harder to recognize who has good gear. Between levels and bolster being liberal with some health pools (or rather some players simply stacking endurance over other stats), you often get the illusion of a fair match even though one team greatly outgears another. The same disparity exists in the 10-49 bracket as exists in the 50 bracket, the difference being, in the 50 bracket it's easier to pick out who has gear, and you probably know the names of the decent pvp players/guilds, so right away you're more likely to judge your team.

 

Myself and my buddies aren't even big time pvpers as far as the server goes, but our little 10-49 overgeared premade smashed through that bracket like the black plague ripped through Europe. But being on random unguilded alts, in a bracket with many queues popping, it wasn't even noticeable how successful we were. Without the guild tags and known personas being present as in the 50 queues, most people didn't ever get to the point of 'Oh a guild premade, time to tell my team how hopeless this is'.

 

That ignorance played a big part though. Since without the knowledge or preconceptions of how unbalanced a match was, it seemed like most players were more likely to go a long with the theory that "I guess those other pugs outplayed us, GG!".

Edited February 2, 2013 by FROIDBUSTER

[Technohic]

I don't bother gearing up in sub=50 outside of when I am capped on comms prior to valor 40. I tried to once and just thought it was stupid. I really don't care if I am under-geared compared to the sub-50 all stars. Minimal credits or not, the less time I spend leveling the toon the better.

 

It's funny cause people get all but hurt about it sometimes. I just ignore them then take joy when I get to shut them down in a same faction match later if I even remember who they are. They better go buy more gear cause what they got aint helping.

[V-Serp]

 

Myself and my buddies aren't even big time pvpers as far as the server goes, but our little 10-49 overgeared premade smashed through that bracket like the black plague ripped through Europe. But being on random unguilded alts, in a bracket with many queues popping, it wasn't even noticeable how successful we were. Without the guild tags and known personas being present as in the 50 queues, most people didn't ever get to the point of 'Oh a guild premade, time to tell my team how hopeless this is'.

 

That ignorance played a big part though. Since without the knowledge or preconceptions of how unbalanced a match was, it seemed like most players were more likely to go a long with the theory that "I guess those other pugs outplayed us, GG!".

 

Nah it's very, very noticeable, and opposing teams always make comments amongst each other about it. Obviously you're not going to see those comments. It's just as you stated with many queues popping it's not as noticeable. Sure it's an unbalanced match, but the opposing PUGs likely won't run into you again anytime soon unless they have really bad luck. You'll get a different set of PUGs instead, while those other PUGs go and face probably a full PUG.

 

The 10-49 bracket isn't great by any means. It just so happens the 50 bracket is even more pathetic. This game has serious issues for pvp no matter what bracket you are in. I don't consider either experience a "good" one indicating excellent game design and gameplay.

 

Biofail refuses to take even the simplest suggestions other people have already done work on. For instance cashogy's match making algorithm, someone else's swtor "heroes" option with set stats from playing star wars hero characters, or simply letting people pick which warzone they want to queue up for.

 

It's just a steadfast refusal to do anything. People have softbanned bubble stun and smash from serious matches, that's how bad it's gotten. I haven't seen that type of action having to be taken since Akuma all the way back from Street Fighter Turbo back about 2 decades ago, and Japan soft banning Claw (US Vega). Biofails ineptitude doesn't only surpass MMOs, they have seriously failed on a level that evokes gaming history, going back decades to find similar failure. That is impressive Biofail, truly impressive.

 

Before anyone asks, I mostly PVE now, it's still a great PVE game. Just....remove PVP altogether since you hate it so much Biofail. Either remove it or actually listen to the people that are paying your salaries and do something.