A message to the PUG community.

[Arutar]

Premades like steammrolling PUGs

 

PUGs dont like to get steamrolled by premades.

 

I don`t think there is any agreement to be reached between these two groups. Everybody loves to be - relativley - high on the food chain:

 

1. Good (Ranked )WZ premades

2. Other Premades

3. Good PUGs (they happen, just rarely, and may even beat an average premade )

4. Bad PUGs

 

Everyone can see that most Premades, who fall into group 2, would hate a seperation of premades from pugs, because that would make them the bottom of their new (premade) food chain, instead of sitting comfortably in the upper half.

 

That is the real reason, and in this way all people on both sides of this argument are the same: They all want to have at least a decent winning chance with their prefferd way to play. Just dont accuse the other side of whining, because you are no different in the end of the day.

[iDraxter]

I don`t understand why ppl think that premades will not run into premades......every night 90% of the times each game we will face another premade 3 or 4man,also i think its standard now to run into 2 PvE geard at the same time per night, add 2 recruits and we re all set ofc they`ll run straight to mid who cares about capping the side node right?, also don`t be fooled by guild name.....friends will inv friends and friends of friends , i pvp everynight in a 4 man and only 2 ppl share the same guild and if 1 is missing we will inv some1 from our friendslist and keep the premade going, ppl in premades will play for the team and not run randomly on the map or into the meat grinder

[Lord_Apophis]

As someone who both queue as premade and solo so can I say that premades almost never ruin warzones for me even when queueing solo.

 

Sure when I see that Im against 3-4 players from among the best pvp Rep guilds on the server then I know it will be a hard fight but that just makes me try harder to win.

 

What ruins it is players, both pug and premade that do not know what to do and refuse to listen to advice. I cant count the number of times in Voidstar when people break cc while someone is capping, dont call incoming until after they are dead if even then, allowing enemy healers to free cast, standing on edges in huttball to allow enemy ball carrier leap points to score...

 

I can make an example from a few days ago, I solo queued and got into ancient hypergate, with us was a sorc with 12,9k hp. He had a mix of green lvl 43-47 gear and a few recruit pieces, total expertice around 250. He refused to answer in the chat, he ran right into the middle and jumped the enemies, maybe getting of a death field before he died, he capped cubes but did not deliver them to our pylon, hell once I used my friendly pull to pull him towards our pylon while whispering him that he needed to run to the pylon, he did not answer and ran back into mid and died...

 

 

and before people tell me to run ranked so I dont have the time or the skill, I do to much pve to have the time to play 4-5 nights a week 4 hours per night which is what our ranked team does, I play pvp because it is fun, I have min/maxed WH with a few EWH because I have made the time to farm gear, I know tactics because if I dont understand something or wants to do better do I talk to those in my guild that are hardcore pvpers and I listen to people in the warzones, if in voidstar someone says stealth to right and rest to left then I will run left not ignore them, run right and ruin a stealth cap...

 

 

But perhaps the most important thing, I DONT LEAVE in the middle of a warzone, it ruins the warzone for the rest of us that stay and try to win. This is something that both pugs and premades do and it always pisses me off, I have been in wzs when 4 man pre-mades have left in the middle of the game and after that is there almost no point in trying to win because in the time it will take for us to have a full team again with all players out of the spawn area so

will the enemy team totally dominate us...

 

Instead of diffrent queues for premade and pug, make it so you MUST complete the quest to get recruit gear before being able to queue for lvl 50 wz, add a video sequence the first time you enter a warzone that describe the basic tactics and goals of the warzone and add a lockout timer for those that leave early like the group finder. If someone leaves a warzone early, he/she cant queue for another warzone for 15-20 min...

[Rendolphe]

THIS IS MY RESPOND TO THE PUG COMMUNITY:

 

 

 

 

/Joking

 

Seriously BW should optimize their matchmaking because sometimes you are in situations that 2 premade play against PUG and it's isn't fun for both side. More anoying on the PUG side btw.

[cashogy_reborn]

Premades like steammrolling PUGs

 

can someone post any kind of link to someone saying that?

 

PUGs definitely dont like being on the losing end of the relationship, but who says that players that premade actually relish in the fact they just wipe the floor with some random PUGs?

 

im not a betting man, but if i was id wager a hefty amount that there is no hard evidence to support that claim.

 

 

this mentality has always confused me in MMOs: "people that beat me obviously have no life and are only playing online games so they can be cyber bullies and feel good about themselves."

 

im sure some of those people exist, but they are more likely to be the ones spawn camping low-level players in questing areas than attempting to PvP in organized, objective based matches.

[MiaRB]

can someone post any kind of link to someone saying that?

 

PUGs definitely dont like being on the losing end of the relationship, but who says that players that premade actually relish in the fact they just wipe the floor with some random PUGs?

 

im not a betting man, but if i was id wager a hefty amount that there is no hard evidence to support that claim.

 

 

this mentality has always confused me in MMOs: "people that beat me obviously have no life and are only playing online games so they can be cyber bullies and feel good about themselves."

 

im sure some of those people exist, but they are more likely to be the ones spawn camping low-level players in questing areas than attempting to PvP in organized, objective based matches.

 

its not about "fun". its about farming comms. that is why many groups/guilds actually make the effort to do what they can do get more than 4 of their people into normal WZs. they want to steamroll pugs and win match in shortest amount of time.

[NuSeC]

This only applies to those who complain about pre-mades ruining war zones for them. You fail to look at it from any other perspective other than your own. Here's the breakdown of the double edged sword.... Let's look at who gets shafted more, yet complain less.

 

Scenario #1: Pre-mades ruin war zones for PUG's on the opposite team by better communication, coordination and often skill. PUG's get wrecked and aren't happy, immediately log onto forums and click "new thread".

 

Scenario #2: PUG's are so poorly organized that they literally lose the game for the 4 man pre-made. Pre-made loses what should have been an easy win.

 

Scenario #3: 4 man pre-made and PUG on same team.... pre-made carries PUG team to victory. (They don't mention this in the list of complaints)

 

Scenario #4: PUG's carry pre-made to victory.... just kidding... that almost never happens...

 

-The other tidbit of information that often gets left out is that there are pre-mades in nearly every war zone, on both sides. The only difference is most of them are bad and it goes unnoticed. They don't mention that either.

 

-The PUG's who go idle in war zones to farm coms... don't get mentioned either in these lists of complaints.

 

-The PUG's who shoot down from the edge of their end zone at the warriors in the pit on huttball... also don't get mentioned.

 

-The PUG's that go on Rambo missions and do nothing but hurt the team... well... they don't get mentioned either.

 

-The PUG's that put up 50K in stats during a 15 minute voidstar.... no one mentions him in those threads.... but that's probably because HE IS the guy starting the damn thread.

 

So before you complain... think about who's really getting the worst of this situation.

 

My point in this is... the pre-mades (good ones) get screwed more often than you PUG's and WE'RE the ones doing the heavy lifting. It's amazing that so many of you can sit here and complain about pre-mades wrecking your face when 2 games later that same pre-made is getting you an easy win.

 

Want to solve the problem? Use the tools available... form a guild, form a pre-made and get better.

 

Disclaimer: I know there are good PUG's out there that understand the game and this post does not apply to you. However, you are the minority. The majority of guilds are awful and the PUG's are even worse on average.

 

In the end... I only hope that one PUG gets this to sink in and the next time they want to complain about pre-mades, they stop, and think... and realize that it's the ones who are putting forth the extra effort by learning to play the game properly, forming groups and organizing tactics and strategies that are far more affected by PUG's vs pre-mades than you PUG's who hop on twice a week for an hour before bed and spam force lightning while face tanking a marauder.

 

This public service announcement has been brought to you by UGLYMRJ.

 

The more you know... (Insert rainbow here)

 

 

My only problem with your post....

 

Is that the people that need to read this are already posting another forum topic about pugs and premades.

 

Ehem... I have carried premades before. But, will admit it is more of a mutual thing most of the time.

 

I have also left a WZ at the start if I see a "certain" guild premade I got stuck qing with. Because... well a full pug group would be better ;D Sad but true.

 

I think sometimes it comes back to the gear complaint. you know. "Their premade was full ewh and we had a bunch of nub pugs in recruit gear."

 

Off Topic:

Feed me your tears... my main is a full ewh rage Jugg (from launch-not a reroll). As such, I love when I can round the opposing 4 man premade up and drop a nuke on them. It makes me feel all warm inside.

[PlagaNerezza]

I don't think putting an 8 man team of guildmates against 8 random players is fun for the 8 random players. If you have more than 4 players you belong queued in the ranked warzone. There should never be more than 4 of the same guild in a random warzone.

 

In my experience those matches result in nothing but players leaving pvp, especially the casual players. The non-ranked queue should be a place to learn, have fun and gain experience with practice available for 4 man teams to try out new members and work on coordination for ranked warzones.

 

Putting your guilds pre-made, min/maxed 8 man team against pugs is a joke and I will call you out in general chat if I see your guild doing it. I typically see this sort of behavior once the new weekly warzones mission becomes available and think its pathetic. Have I done it as a guild? Yes.

 

I'd rather queue ranked and get steamrolled. To fix this problem I'd recommend a loss in a ranked count as win and a win count twice.

 

Then you've got no excuses. Not that anyone cares about the pvp community in this game. The pvp right now mechanically is abysmal. I was so feed up with it last night I played hearts. With the carrot gone in pvp to chase and the state of the warzones its not very fun.

[UGLYMRJ]

I don't think putting an 8 man team of guildmates against 8 random players is fun for the 8 random players. If you have more than 4 players you belong queued in the ranked warzone. There should never be more than 4 of the same guild in a random warzone.

 

I'm def not talking about 8 man pre-mades in regs... that's I can agree with is weak and a pitiful attempt at a guild trying to faceroll someone to boost their ego. I'm not saying I haven't been in one... but I've never left until we got a pop together.

 

And with that logic if I have members online you're suggesting that we queue for ranked?

 

Not sure how your server is but ours is normally too competitive to be going in with 3 PUGs... it would be a huge waste of time. Noy only that.... but sometimes we have more than 20 members online... but we don't have a jug tank... or an op healer. We'll try to find someone from another competitive guild to fill in but if we can't... guess what? We form a bunch of teams of 4 and we queue for regs. Sometimes we get two teams on the same team... sometimes on opposite teams... sometimes in different games. No matter what the outcome... we play each pop as intended.

 

Rated is far too competitive to be going in without proper team composition. If we know another guild is q'ing we'll hit em up for kickball matches or agree to both go in with bad comps to even things out but when the better teams on the server are q'ing it would be moronic to think "we have 5 people online... we should PUG 3 people and queue against the best team on the server".

[Glower]

It's amazing that so many of you can sit here and complain about pre-mades wrecking your face when 2 games later that same pre-made is getting you an easy win.

 

Yeah i'm reps and this imps voice comm premade, which is already for two hours here, helps me all the time! How nice!

Edited February 1, 2013 by Glower

[UGLYMRJ]

Yeah i'm reps and this imps voice comm premade, which is already for two hours here, helps me all the time! How nice!

 

LOL c'mon... are you telling me that a good pre-made never ends up on your team. It was an example... I know you see my point.

[Glower]

Okay. Also:

 

and think... and realize that it's the ones who are putting forth the extra effort by learning to play the game properly,

 

But you will not learn anything good in games like pugs vs roflstomp premade.

[UGLYMRJ]

Okay. Also:

 

 

 

But you will not learn anything good in games like pugs vs roflstomp premade.

 

The PUGs should be learning... when we went into ranked we got rolled for weeks until we learned from our mistakes, got better and became competitive. Now one of the better ranked guilds on our server.... we got there by getting facerolled until we improved.

 

As far as going into a game and facerolling the other teams? What are we supposed to do? Break up the group and queue solo? Not play with friends and guildies?

 

And I have no problem with a solo queue... as long as it doesn't affect my queue times.

 

The problem people fail to realize with the idea of pre-mades and solo queue... is that it can't be separate. The math doesn't support it. 2 pre-mades of four enters a game... one disconnects. Who is used for back fill?

 

Pub side.... 2 teams of 4 are queue'd and ready to go... the imps have 3 teams of 3 players... both teams left waiting.

 

Simple examples but just one of the many reasons it's a horrible idea. I'm not saying some better matchmaking wouldn't be a good thing, but as the game is designed it will not support separate queues and it shouldn't. Hopefully the up and coming matchmaking system throws pre-mades in vs pre-mades and uses PUGs as filler....

 

But it's not going to solve the problem... no matter how they word it... the problem comes down to one thing. People don't like losing. And MOST of the players that are complaining are obviously not on the top tier of the skill level or they wouldn't be losing so much. I've never seen a top tier player on my server complaining about pre-mades... never. But even if they prioritize so that pre-mades are generally going against pre-mades... most pre-mades suck... and the PUGs that get stuck on that crappy team.... won't recognize the pre-made on their team that sucked... they'll only notice the good pre-made on the other team that rolled em and they'll be right back here complaining again looking for another 'easy difficulty setting' to be handed to them.

Edited February 1, 2013 by UGLYMRJ

[criminalheretic]

Yet when us Puggers ask for a PUG only option you premades QQ a river over it because then you would have to play against other premades... Hmmm

 

Premades don't mind playing against other premades. And if premades are in every WZ, then we are playing against premades all the time, by default. Premades cry about the idea of a PuG only WZ because then all of sudden our options are reduced to Ranked, or Solo queuing.

 

Ranked - PvP guilds queue for ranked all the time, but you need 8 people, and ideal composition, and another 8 people on the other side. And even if you have that, you're often still limited to playing the same team over and over for as long as they want to queue. Ranked takes some production, and is not something people want to deal with at 10am server time, when only 6 of their guild is online, and they are just trying to pound out their daily.

 

Solo - If we wanted to queue solo, we wouldn't have bothered joining a guild. Or playing an MMO for that matter. The idea of forcing people to do something solo is contradictory to the spirit of an MMO. Plus at the risk of sounding cynical, you force the good players to queue solo, they are still going to end up on the same team occasionally, they will still win and a month later we will have 365 threads asking for a "recruit only" queue. Or a <1200 expertise queue. I truly don't believe the complaining will ever end until people who aren't very good at PvP, win as often as people who ARE good at PvP. Which is ridiculous.

 

Option 3 - a Premade only queue, that is unranked. Ok... so how does that work? It only matches 4 teams of 4? What if you have 3? You have to go into a match 7v8 because all the single players are in the solo queue? What if you have 2? You have to wait for another duo to queue up, and then get matched with a 4some? That could take some time, and is inadvertently again punishing people for grouping up, in an MMO.

 

Premades cry about the idea of a solo only queue, because it creates an environment where PvP becomes inconvenient for the very people who spend the most time PvPing.

 

Edit: And Ugly beat me to most of what I said, that's what you get for starting a response and then doing for work for few minutes...

Edited February 1, 2013 by criminalheretic

[cashogy_reborn]

its not about "fun". its about farming comms. that is why many groups/guilds actually make the effort to do what they can do get more than 4 of their people into normal WZs. they want to steamroll pugs and win match in shortest amount of time.

 

again, says who?

 

it takes a minimal effort to get WH now. the evil people that like enjoy PvPing with friends, like myself and UGLY for examply, are already geared. we have no real use to comms anymore.

 

tbh, that is the case w/ most of the PvPers i am friends with on POT5.

 

 

so instead of attempting to either read our minds, or just flat out put words in our mouths, can you folks actually start reading what we post? b/c the things that you continually post that we have said, have never been said. probably by anyone.

[LarryRow]

UGLY, your OP definitely rubbed me wrong and I think it was the condescending and unconstructive tone you took with the situation. We are all sick of this topic, and I'm glad you mentioned that premades often consist of sub-par players (not putting all the blame on pugs), but you definitely subscribe to all the usual stereotypes of bad pugs.

 

When I saw the thread title and your name as topic originator, I expected something more constructive. Like advice for how to play more effectively as a team while pugging. Instead I read a post that could have been titled "Whining pugs are RUINING swtor pvp forum!"

[UGLYMRJ]

again, says who?

 

it takes a minimal effort to get WH now. the evil people that like enjoy PvPing with friends, like myself and UGLY for examply, are already geared. we have no real use to comms anymore.

 

tbh, that is the case w/ most of the PvPers i am friends with on POT5.

 

 

so instead of attempting to either read our minds, or just flat out put words in our mouths, can you folks actually start reading what we post? b/c the things that you continually post that we have said, have never been said. probably by anyone.

 

So much of this... well said cash.

 

No matter how many times I've said it on forums it's never heard. I like competition and most of us do. I would rather have competitive games than faceroll people (Even though it CAN be fun... it's no ideal). I know MOST share the same opinion.

[Cappadin]

Does anyone remember warhammer online? Super fun when it started.. 6 months in guilds were established and became well known, premades and cliques formed. 1 year later with no cross server, no matchmaking, and many server mergers... It was a circle jerk of the same premades stomping pugs over and over again farming them at their spawn. I hope that doesn't happen with this game but its well on its course and run by the same people.

[UGLYMRJ]

UGLY, your OP definitely rubbed me wrong and I think it was the condescending and unconstructive tone you took with the situation. We are all sick of this topic, and I'm glad you mentioned that premades often consist of sub-par players (not putting all the blame on pugs), but you definitely subscribe to all the usual stereotypes of bad pugs.

 

When I saw the thread title and your name as topic originator, I expected something more constructive. Like advice for how to play more effectively as a team while pugging. Instead I read a post that could have been titled "Whining pugs are RUINING swtor pvp forum!"

 

You're absolutely right on all counts... but I think that most of us know that any constructive criticism would be ignored and honestly... I'm sick and tired of these forums being filled with ridiculously absurd ideas, that have no thought or logic put behind them. Just complaints... all of these pre-made threads are just complaints.... about losing and the people who want an 'easy mode' made for them so they don't have to improve.

 

Was stooping to their level the most constructive thing I've done on forums? Absolutely not... however there is an under lying message underneath the condescending post. It's not ideal for PUGs and pre-mades alike... we both suffer from the state of the game and PvP but NONE of us should be complaining. This is online gaming and unless you're matched up with a team of only friends or guildies or your clan or whatever... people have been getting carried, trolling, costing other people wins since the beginning of online gaming.

 

To complain about it useless. It's by far one of the most idiotic complaints on these forums in my opinion. It's like complaining about water being wet.

Edited February 1, 2013 by UGLYMRJ

[Elrithis]

Does anyone remember warhammer online? Super fun when it started.. 6 months in guilds were established and became well known, premades and cliques formed. 1 year later with no cross server, no matchmaking, and many server mergers... It was a circle jerk of the same premades stomping pugs over and over again farming them at their spawn. I hope that doesn't happen with this game but its well on its course and run by the same people.

 

Warhammer online had some of the best pvp ive ever played bar none... sure there were some class ballance issue like DOK and WP and Bright Wizard bombing but at least you could have fun. I remember keep battles going on for 45 mins or more at a time. But i see exactly where your coming from unfortunatly

[sirullrich]

I don`t understand why ppl think that premades will not run into premades......every night 90% of the times each game we will face another premade 3 or 4man,also i think its standard now to run into 2 PvE geard at the same time per night, add 2 recruits and we re all set ofc they`ll run straight to mid who cares about capping the side node right?, also don`t be fooled by guild name.....friends will inv friends and friends of friends , i pvp everynight in a 4 man and only 2 ppl share the same guild and if 1 is missing we will inv some1 from our friendslist and keep the premade going, ppl in premades will play for the team and not run randomly on the map or into the meat grinder

 

This is exactly what I am saying. I guarantee, but with no proof , that everymatch there is a premade and pugs on each team. It just shows that it is not about premades or pugs. It's about skill level. There are always going to be good players and bad players. When I play on my main toon with guildys I do win majority of my matches, but to tell me that I win majority of my matches because I am always playing against pugs is just idiotic to say. Also to claim that my team has only premades and the other team has only pugs is also dumb!!!!

[DrewFromPhilly]

I feel like this is the first online multiplayer game alot of ppl here have ever played, they keep talking about this as if BW has done something terrible by allowing friends to group together when its commonplace in almost every online game I've ever played. And, all the endless talking about rage quitting when that is also in every multiplayer game ever. Edited February 1, 2013 by DrewFromPhilly

[UGLYMRJ]

I feel like this is the first online multiplayer game alot of ppl here have ever played, they keep talking about this as if BW has done something terrible by allowing friends to group together when its commonplace in almost every online game I've ever played. And, all the endless talking about rage quitting when that is also in every multiplayer game ever.

 

LOL so true...

[sirullrich]

I feel like this is the first online multiplayer game alot of ppl here have ever played, they keep talking about this as if BW has done something terrible by allowing friends to group together when its commonplace in almost every online game I've ever played. And, all the endless talking about rage quitting when that is also in every multiplayer game ever.

 

second that!

[PlagaNerezza]

I feel like this is the first online multiplayer game alot of ppl here have ever played, they keep talking about this as if BW has done something terrible by allowing friends to group together when its commonplace in almost every online game I've ever played. And, all the endless talking about rage quitting when that is also in every multiplayer game ever.

 

Most MMO's these days utilize a better matching system. Most of the complaints are around the very subpar system used by bioware to assemble teams for an 8 vs 8 match.

 

Like when you enter with no healers against a team with 2 healer specc'd players. Now of course anything can happen, but that is almost certainly not going to go well.

 

When it starts match 6 vs. 8.

 

When it places 2 4 man teams against a complete pug instead of balancing for 1 four man on each side of the match.

 

When it places in a pug all the recruit geared players on one team and then zero or 1 on the other team.

 

When it places in ranked the high ranked team against the very low ranked team because hey. First in first up.

 

Its a terrible system.

 

Compound that with the TTK and the CC and its gotten abysmal from my perspective. The bubble stun/chain stun/nades is beyond annoying. The fact that resolve and the cc breaking mechanism is barely functional and its gotten really old for me.