A message to the PUG community.

[Jaaskar]

I completely agree with the OP and a lot of the other posters in this thread. That being said you just cannot get through the heads of some of the people that complain about premades.

 

I've came to the conclusion that the same people that consistently cry and complain on these threads are the same people who have an entire room in their homes dedicated to all the trophies of their achievements. But, if you look closely at their "accomplishments" you'll never find a 1st, 2nd or even 3rd place trophy. Only that they "participated."

Edited January 31, 2013 by Jaaskar

[MiaRB]

really needed to add yet another PUG vs Premade thread?

[UGLYMRJ]

Agreed with OP

 

PS: You will love that resort and Maui, thats where my wife and I stay when we Island hop. On oahu btw, K-bay ftl.

 

Yeah... the only complaints I read in reviews was that it was too quiet... we said "SIGN ME UP!"

 

You really need to stop obsessing over this issue. You may have some issues you may want to address.

 

The bottom line on the Pug Premade issue is as follows: When I pug, some matches are ok but most are impossible to win. When I premade it's just too easy. I win probably 99% of my matches if its vs a Pug and I am barely even trying. Super easy mode would be a good description. I bet i could run one macro and nothing else still win 95% of them. One button I win. This is really what you spend your days obssessing about?

 

Had no idea I was obsessing... thanks for letting me know.

 

I think when the forums are full of misinformation, unlogical complaints and almost nothing constructive I reach a point of trying to shut at least one person up.

 

Hence... this thread.

[UGLYMRJ]

really needed to add yet another PUG vs Premade thread?

 

They have 36 threads about how pre-mades are the spawn of satan...

 

We only have this one to rebuttal with... since Sithsanity's got removed.

 

It was necessary.

[tekhiun]

Good, so you agree that premades should have their own queue separeted from pug queue =)

[MiaRB]

They have 36 threads about how pre-mades are the spawn of satan...

 

We only have this one to rebuttal with... since Sithsanity's got removed.

 

It was necessary.

 

lol. it is not necessary. its simple...

 

grouping with friends and guildies for WZs = good and fine.

 

scamming the system to attempt to get double premades in normals or to get more than a 4 man group in normals = lame and is where most of the complaints come from.

 

solution will come when BW adds new and improved matchmaking system.

 

there really isnt anything more to be said that hasnt already been said 1000 times over in each of these type of threads.

[Racter]

You really need to stop obsessing over this issue. You may have some issues you may want to address.

 

The bottom line on the Pug Premade issue is as follows: When I pug, some matches are ok but most are impossible to win. When I premade it's just too easy. I win probably 99% of my matches if its vs a Pug and I am barely even trying. Super easy mode would be a good description. I bet i could run one macro and nothing else still win 95% of them. One button I win. This is really what you spend your days obssessing about?

 

Apparently your server is terrible. I'd estimate 2/3 of my solo queue matches I end up with decent players in a decent comp, often with a premade on either side which typically has little effect on the match in general.

 

That other third though... Good greif. How are there still Arsenal Mercs PVPing... And how did I get 4 of them in one match?

[UGLYMRJ]

Good, so you agree that premades should have their own queue separeted from pug queue =)

 

LOL... I was waiting for this... and no. I'm fine with the system as is... gotta give a little to get a little.

[DarthOvertone]

I mainly play MMOs to hangout with my RL bros and friends. In this game, and every game we play/played, we group up for PvP. Never thought much of it. Always had a lot of fun. Been doing this since UO.

 

It wasn't until I played SWTOR though that I first heard that forming a premade was bad, that playing with friends and guildies was somehow sinister and cowardly. It's so bizarre and strange.

[UGLYMRJ]

I mainly play MMOs to hangout with my RL bros and friends. In this game, and every game we play/played, we group up for PvP. Never thought much of it. Always had a lot of fun. Been doing this since UO.

 

It wasn't until I played SWTOR though that I first heard that forming a premade was bad, that playing with friends and guildies was somehow sinister and cowardly. It's so bizarre and strange.

 

Right? Blows my mind...

[Washingtoon]

This only applies to those who complain about pre-mades ruining war zones for them. You fail to look at it from any other perspective other than your own. Here's the breakdown of the double edged sword.... Let's look at who gets shafted more, yet complain less.

A few things here.

There's no reason for good premades to come online and complain about the current system because they're obviously pretty satisfied with an enviroment where they get to farm wins against much less skilled players.

 

You are only looking at this from your own perspective, which your second sentence clearly manifests. Someone who tries to look at this in an objective manner would never add something like that.

 

Just as you assume that everyone who has ever complained about premades is a pug I'm going to assume that a good deal of these "pugs" really belong to crappy premades. Now we're suddenly back to status quo.

Scenario #1: Pre-mades ruin war zones for PUG's on the opposite team by better communication, coordination and often skill. PUG's get wrecked and aren't happy, immediately log onto forums and click "new thread".

It's things such as those last couple of words here that ruin whatever point it is that you are trying to convey. You were correct up until that point.

 

Scenario #2: PUG's are so poorly organized that they literally lose the game for the 4 man pre-made. Pre-made loses what should have been an easy win.

 

Scenario #3: 4 man pre-made and PUG on same team.... pre-made carries PUG team to victory. (They don't mention this in the list of complaints)

 

Scenario #4: PUG's carry pre-made to victory.... just kidding... that almost never happens...

 

-The other tidbit of information that often gets left out is that there are pre-mades in nearly every war zone, on both sides. The only difference is most of them are bad and it goes unnoticed. They don't mention that either.

Don't know what to do with the list of possible outcomes. A few degratory undertones there too so you're atleast keeping it somewhat consistent.

 

As for not mentioning the full picture, that's exactly what I've always done and the full picture is what's ruining all forms of competitve play in this game. Now, if you only care about comms there's no reason to complain about premades, the wins and losses will even out at the end and you will get your comms. The only time you as a pug statistically is going to get screwed over by a premade is when there's only one premade in the game and you are on the same faction. This means that you only have a 33 % to end up with them. It could of course be a terrible premade in which case you have a 66 % chance of not having to play with them. This is however irrelelevant.

 

What's relevant is , in my expereince, that there are very few premades out there that are representing the full skill spectrum. This means that the premade is generally skilled or crappy. This is where the premades are starting to cut deep into the pug experience. Yes, for those who care more about the experience than just the comms.

This is the part that you, and other L2P sayers, have a really hard time grasping but as a pug it many times becomes pointless to play when you know that you're in an enviroment where the average skill of the premade will make or break the team. In many cases you're able to tell, even before leaving the spawn, how the game is going to end by simply looking at who you ended up with. Im of the opinion that there would be far less of these games and much more player/skill diversity on the team, on both teams, if pugs didnt have to deal with premades. I'm obviously not excluding the possibility that five really good or bad pugs could end up on the same team and determine the outcome of the game for the rest but statistically there'd be more diversity. Instead of having either 4 bads or skilled players on the same team they'd get spread out.

The option for pugs to avoid premades would only be available primetime, aprox. 5-6PM to midnight. It's not reasonable to have seperate queues during the slow hours. If this is not something those in premades can accept then they shouldnt be involved in what potentially could be competitve enviroments in the first place because they are obviously not interested in that aspect of it.

 

-The PUG's who go idle in war zones to farm coms... don't get mentioned either in these lists of complaints.

 

-The PUG's who shoot down from the edge of their end zone at the warriors in the pit on huttball... also don't get mentioned.

 

-The PUG's that go on Rambo missions and do nothing but hurt the team... well... they don't get mentioned either.

 

-The PUG's that put up 50K in stats during a 15 minute voidstar.... no one mentions him in those threads.... but that's probably because HE IS the guy starting the damn thread.

We're all aware of these but I don't how they'e relevant to the current discussion. There is no way of seperating individual idiots from the rest. Well, maybe an IQ test...but do we really want to lose 90 % of the population? Are you prepared to sacrifice yourself for the greater good?

 

Want to solve the problem? Use the tools available... form a guild, form a pre-made and get better.

1. A lot of people are pugging because they don't have anyone online to play with. It doesnt have to be a deliberate choice to never group up with other people, like your click sometimes is trying to insinuate. The solution would to not play at all. Wouldnt that screw with your farm schedule? No winners there.

2. You might have friends online but no one you'd like to PvP with. This goes extra for PvE servers where people might have joined a guild for foremost PvE, on behalf of it being possible to play warzones solo but not a raid.

3. You're not interested in rolling pugs in a good premade.

 

But hey, let's move this discussion to Narnia and assume that everyone would form a premade. So you are not opposed to such a playlist, since that's essentially what it would be, but you think it's better to roll pugs, given the option? That's true sportmanship right there. And no, I have no respect for you or your peers.

 

How about this, instead of telling 50 % of the population to form premades you could fcous on just getting 10 % to form 8-man teams for rateds. Because that is what you want, right? A competitive atmosphere with non-stop queues.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Washingtoon

[UGLYMRJ]

All that typing in favor of a solo queue and a group queue... and it's all negated by the fact that there are good pre-mades and bad ones... good PUG's and bad ones...

 

The problem is you're missing one of my underlying points... likely because you were too busy masking the next clever insult... is that there will always be another excuse. But this one is by far the most illogical yet.

 

Team work is always a positive and trying to portray it as a negative is asinine.

Edited January 31, 2013 by UGLYMRJ

[foxmob]

 

In the end... I only hope that one PUG gets this to sink in and the next time they want to complain about pre-mades, they stop, and think... and realize that it's the ones who are putting forth the extra effort by learning to play the game properly, forming groups and organizing tactics and strategies that are far more affected by PUG's vs pre-mades than you PUG's who hop on twice a week for an hour before bed and spam force lightning while face tanking a marauder.

 

This public service announcement has been brought to you by UGLYMRJ.

 

The more you know... (Insert rainbow here)

what are your thoughts on super Qs?

[UGLYMRJ]

what are your thoughts on super Qs?

 

If you mean 8 man pre-mades... seems like a waste of time and unncessary for any decent group of players. If we get one it's out of pure luck. But people who constantly leave until they get a queue pop together on the same team... seems like a desperate attempt to scrounge up some wins.

 

I think that's a group of players who aren't good enough for rated and want to take their aggression out on the normally poorly skilled reg teams out there. Just a meaningless way for average players to feel superior.

 

I could care less about regs for anything more than to get a weekly and daily done... far too many people take it too seriously IMO.

Edited January 31, 2013 by UGLYMRJ

[sirullrich]

A few things here.

There's no reason for good premades to come online and complain about the current system because they're obviously pretty satisfied with an enviroment where they get to farm wins against much less skilled players.

 

You are only looking at this from your own perspective, which your second sentence clearly manifests. Someone who tries to look at this in an objective manner would never add something like that.

 

Just as you assume that everyone who has ever complained about premades is a pug I'm going to assume that a good deal of these "pugs" really belong to crappy premades. Now we're suddenly back to status quo.

It's things such as those last couple of words here that ruin whatever point it is that you are trying to convey. You were correct up until that point.

 

Don't know what to do with the list of possible outcomes. A few degratory undertones there too so you're atleast keeping it somewhat consistent.

 

As for not mentioning the full picture, that's exactly what I've always done and the full picture is what's ruining all forms of competitve play in this game. Now, if you only care about comms there's no reason to complain about premades, the wins and losses will even out at the end and you will get your comms. The only time you as a pug statistically is going to get screwed over by a premade is when there's only one premade in the game and you are on the same faction. This means that you only have a 33 % to end up with them. It could of course be a terrible premade in which case you have a 66 % chance of not having to play with them. This is however irrelelevant.

 

What's relevant is , in my expereince, that there are very few premades out there that are representing the full skill spectrum. This means that the premade is generally skilled or crappy. This is where the premades are starting to cut deep into the pug experience. Yes, for those who care more about the experience than just the comms.

This is the part that you, and other L2P sayers, have a really hard time grasping but as a pug it many times becomes pointless to play when you know that you're in an enviroment where the average skill of the premade will make or break the team. In many cases you're able to tell, even before leaving the spawn, how the game is going to end by simply looking at who you ended up with. Im of the opinion that there would be far less of these games and much more player/skill diversity on the team, on both teams, if pugs didnt have to deal with premades. I'm obviously not excluding the possibility that five really good or bad pugs could end up on the same team and determine the outcome of the game for the rest but statistically there'd be more diversity. Instead of having either 4 bads or skilled players on the same team they'd get spread out.

The option for pugs to avoid premades would only be available primetime, aprox. 5-6PM to midnight. It's not reasonable to have seperate queues during the slow hours. If this is not something those in premades can't accept then they shouldnt be involved in what potentially could be competitve enviroments in the first place because they are obviously not interested in that aspect of it.

 

 

We're all aware of these but I don't how they'e relevant to the current discussion. There is no way of seperating individual idiots from the rest. Well, maybe an IQ test...but do we really want to lose 90 % of the population? Are you prepared to sacrifice yourself for the greater good?

 

1. A lot of people are pugging because they don't have anyone online to play with. It doesnt have to be a deliberate choice to never group up with other people, like your click sometimes is trying to insinuate. The solution would to not play at all. Wouldnt that screw with your farm schedule? No winners there.

2. You might have friends online but no one you'd like to PvP with. This goes extra for PvE servers where people might have joined a guild for foremost PvE, on behalf of it being possible to play warzones solo but not a raid.

3. You're not interested in rolling pugs in a good premade.

 

But hey, let's move this discussion to Narnia and assume that everyone would form a premade. So you are not opposed to such a playlist, since that's essentially what it would be, but you think it's better to roll pugs, given the option? That's true sportmanship right there. And no, I have no respect for you or your peers.

 

How about this, instead of telling 50 % of the population to form premades you could fcous on just getting 10 % to form 8-man teams for rateds. Because that is what you want, right? A competitive atmosphere with non-stop queues.

 

Doesn't understand the thread at allllll!!!!!

[UGLYMRJ]

Doesn't understand the thread at allllll!!!!!

 

Not from what I read... not gonna lie... didn't read it all. From what I caught he likes to argue and slip in insults when possible.

 

On the internet??!!!?!?! Shocking...

[Carter_Mathis]

Another shocking thing that people rage about: Good players grouping up to PUG-stomp....

I've never actually logged in and thought "Time to stomp some pugs because that's the only way I can win," on the contrary, I think "I hope I can piss off this entire premade we're fighting" much more often.

Super secret time: The reason most players group up.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. is to play with friends

[UGLYMRJ]

Another shocking thing that people rage about: Good players grouping up to PUG-stomp....

I've never actually logged in and thought "Time to stomp some pugs because that's the only way I can win," on the contrary, I think "I hope I can piss off this entire premade we're fighting" much more often.

Super secret time: The reason most players group up.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. is to play with friends

 

Makes far too much sense to be true... you sir, are under investigation for your slanderous comments and outlandish theories.

[foxmob]

If you mean 8 man pre-mades... seems like a waste of time and unncessary for any decent group of players. If we get one it's out of pure luck. But people who constantly leave until they get a queue pop together on the same team... seems like a desperate attempt to scrounge up some wins.

 

I think that's a group of players who aren't good enough for rated and want to take their aggression out on the normally poorly skilled reg teams out there. Just a meaningless way for average players to feel superior.

 

I could care less about regs for anything more than to get a weekly and daily done... far too many people take it too seriously IMO.

on Jedi Covenant, I've run into super Q's that not only...well...super Q, but then get a vstar and make it last as long as possible to farm...presumably dmg for the server records.

[Dwyer]

Not from what I read... not gonna lie... didn't read it all. From what I caught he likes to argue and slip in insults when possible.

 

On the internet??!!!?!?! Shocking...

To be fair chums, the exact same thing is happening in the rest of this thread on both sides. If you don't agree, simply state so, and state logical reasons why. Anything else serves no purpose other than to contribute to the near inevitable downward spiral these threads so often suffer.

 

That said, I absolutely agree with your original post. You are dead on with a vast majority of everything you say, and given the current system, I don't think there are many reasons (at least that I can think of) to say that premades ruin the game for others. What if we step back a second and identify a key part of the original post (forgive me I don't want to go back to quote the exact words again) where you state that there are varying levels of skill for both PUGs and Premades. I would argue that this is the issue dead on, and not that the nature of having a group in the warzone does anything to diminish the experience of others, but instead that their level of skill and ability to communicate (and perhaps a helping of proper gear choices) give them the distinct edge that so many complain about.

 

So, where am I going with this? I'm positive it's been stated before, but what if the standard warzone system accounted prior warzone performance when making matchups? Maybe based on wins as well as other areas? This part i'm not sure how exactly to do because there are scenarios where that one person without a large amount of medals or that was not super high on the meters was very vital to the win. Either way, the idea of a separate queue for premades misses the point due to the fact that skill and communication as opposed to some sort of inherent bonus to being in a premade is what determines the difference between a win and a loss in a warzone.

[wishihadaname]

I get the point, but I can hardly sympathize. The issue is not premades in and of themselves, the issue is malicious intent and the fact that premades allow ******e players to grief others without consequence.

 

Prime example from our server (Jedi Covenant). There is a guild called Lethal Dose 50. Their stated objective is to win. Not fairly. Not with a fight. Not by the same rules as anyone else. They do not lose. If they start losing, they quit. This doesn't happen often though because what they like to do is to form 4-5 4 man premades of the following composition healer(scoundrel or bubble stun sage only), 2 dps (either 2 smashers, or 2 pyros, occasionally they will even take a marauder of some spec or other), and a tank (always hybrid tanksassin or on rare occasions an absolutely insane Jug.) They have then manpower, coordination and gear to play rated, but they don't. In rated they lose but their goal is to win. So they spend hours each day winning against anyone who ques pug. They even roll 4 man twink premades in sub 50. They have also had a metric ton of reports filed against them for every sort of hack and cheat imaginable. Can't say they are all credible, but i've eaten 30m ion pulses and 30m obliterates while fighting them so go figure.

 

The point is that such people can and do ruin the game for everyone else and they do so by abusing the ability to que full groups. Honestly, I think bioware should apply rating to ALL match ups, so that when you get a groups of cretins like LD50, they only get to play themselves and others like them. The simpler and more definite answer though would be to make premades que separately, or at least give pugs the option to check a no premades but longer que times button. I somehow get the feeling that if rating was implemented, the LD50 crowd would start doing what they do in sub 50 and quit 3 seconds before a match finishes to keep their rating at 0 and get to destroy recruits all day.

[Dwyer]

I get the point, but I can hardly sympathize. The issue is not premades in and of themselves, the issue is malicious intent and the fact that premades allow ******e players to grief others without consequence.

 

Prime example from our server (Jedi Covenant). There is a guild called Lethal Dose 50. Their stated objective is to win. Not fairly. Not with a fight. Not by the same rules as anyone else. They do not lose. If they start losing, they quit. This doesn't happen often though because what they like to do is to form 4-5 4 man premades of the following composition healer(scoundrel or bubble stun sage only), 2 dps (either 2 smashers, or 2 pyros, occasionally they will even take a marauder of some spec or other), and a tank (always hybrid tanksassin or on rare occasions an absolutely insane Jug.) They have then manpower, coordination and gear to play rated, but they don't. In rated they lose but their goal is to win. So they spend hours each day winning against anyone who ques pug. They even roll 4 man twink premades in sub 50. They have also had a metric ton of reports filed against them for every sort of hack and cheat imaginable. Can't say they are all credible, but i've eaten 30m ion pulses and 30m obliterates while fighting them so go figure.

 

The point is that such people can and do ruin the game for everyone else and they do so by abusing the ability to que full groups. Honestly, I think bioware should apply rating to ALL match ups, so that when you get a groups of cretins like LD50, they only get to play themselves and others like them. The simpler and more definite answer though would be to make premades que separately, or at least give pugs the option to check a no premades but longer que times button. I somehow get the feeling that if rating was implemented, the LD50 crowd would start doing what they do in sub 50 and quit 3 seconds before a match finishes to keep their rating at 0 and get to destroy recruits all day.

 

This is a prime example where a matchmaking system that takes in account prior warzone performance could potentially help alleviate these issues. What if these premades in question were forced to play others with a similar prior track record? If they win, the rewards are greater, if they lose, matchmaking is adjusted accordingly. To be honest, I don't see forming a premade with the intent to win as any form of malicious behavior and I don't think anyone should have to queue up for ranked when at times it can take quite some time for ranked to trigger a match and right now there are so many times where you have to leave and rejoin to get it to trigger at all.

[cashogy_reborn]

lol. it is not necessary. its simple...

 

grouping with friends and guildies for WZs = good and fine.

 

scamming the system to attempt to get double premades in normals or to get more than a 4 man group in normals = lame and is where most of the complaints come from.

 

solution will come when BW adds new and improved matchmaking system.

 

there really isnt anything more to be said that hasnt already been said 1000 times over in each of these type of threads.

 

if you actually believe that is what most people are crying about, LOL

[foxmob]

I get the point, but I can hardly sympathize. The issue is not premades in and of themselves, the issue is malicious intent and the fact that premades allow ******e players to grief others without consequence.

 

Prime example from our server (Jedi Covenant). There is a guild called Lethal Dose 50. Their stated objective is to win. Not fairly. Not with a fight. Not by the same rules as anyone else. They do not lose. If they start losing, they quit. This doesn't happen often though because what they like to do is to form 4-5 4 man premades of the following composition healer(scoundrel or bubble stun sage only), 2 dps (either 2 smashers, or 2 pyros, occasionally they will even take a marauder of some spec or other), and a tank (always hybrid tanksassin or on rare occasions an absolutely insane Jug.) They have then manpower, coordination and gear to play rated, but they don't. In rated they lose but their goal is to win. So they spend hours each day winning against anyone who ques pug. They even roll 4 man twink premades in sub 50. They have also had a metric ton of reports filed against them for every sort of hack and cheat imaginable. Can't say they are all credible, but i've eaten 30m ion pulses and 30m obliterates while fighting them so go figure.

 

The point is that such people can and do ruin the game for everyone else and they do so by abusing the ability to que full groups. Honestly, I think bioware should apply rating to ALL match ups, so that when you get a groups of cretins like LD50, they only get to play themselves and others like them. The simpler and more definite answer though would be to make premades que separately, or at least give pugs the option to check a no premades but longer que times button. I somehow get the feeling that if rating was implemented, the LD50 crowd would start doing what they do in sub 50 and quit 3 seconds before a match finishes to keep their rating at 0 and get to destroy recruits all day.

 

they don't lose (much) in rated. they're the top guild on the server. they don't always win, but even if you think uncensored is better, you're out of your freaking mind if you think ld50 farms reg cuz they're afraid to Q rated.

 

I have no idea whether or not they super Q, but they don't drop Q if they don't get the super Q. that's a fact. I run into 4m grps ALL THE TIME both on my team and against. fyi: it's impossible for me to be on their team if they did what you say they do. Yes, their 4m's are usually balanced in composition. any hint of credibility you might have had went out the window. gonna be honest, I stopped reading after that bit. maybe they do cheat. dunno. can't take your word for. I'm sure of that.

Edited February 1, 2013 by foxmob

[ItchyThePenguin]

As someone who almost exclusively PuG's Warzones -- I approve of this message!