The current state of pvp.

[wwkingms]

Or Ghraj following you back to the fleet and wiping you? Good times, lol.

 

Bubble stun is .. well, I fear the reason it's so prevalent is that most people can't play their sorc worth spit and this is all they have to fall back on rather than learning to play. I'm sure someone will say that it's the only thing that makes sorcs viable, to which I won't even reply, because that's just admitting the person in question needs a clue.

 

so wait, speccing bubble stun makes a sorc bad?

 

should i not be using a powerful ability, cause as far as i can tell its the only one we have

 

thats like telling a jugg not to lolsmash or a pt not to smash his face across his keyboard for chain 5k crits

[LogicalPremise]

so wait, speccing bubble stun makes a sorc bad?

 

should i not be using a powerful ability, cause as far as i can tell its the only one we have

 

thats like telling a jugg not to lolsmash or a pt not to smash his face across his keyboard for chain 5k crits

 

If you think that is the only way to play those classes -- then yes.

 

Focusing on a 'powerful ability' that is going to be nerfed and no longer present means that WHEN it is taken away, people depending on it will be failsauce once more, while those of use who master more complex non-facerolling tactics will be unaffected.

[tekhiun]

I think the keyword on your post, and basically all you had to post was "HOTFIX" , really thats all that is needed , put those specs to the way they were before until the guy working part time on pvp can think of something that is not broken. But no, bioware decides to leave it in game cause even more frustration and disappointment to those who seek a competitive environment when pvping. What should have been fixed within a few days when the entire pvp community saw it coming has been left in game for months now and not a peep about an ETA to a fix.

[mtsr]

agree 100% with this thread.

 

And I has a PvP smasher.

Though I lack Bubble Stun cloth wearer in my PvP stable, Bubbles everywhere in pVp isn't well spoken of in-game.

[TrigPt]

nothing gets fixed until Makeb and lvl55 is released.

why would they do any balance changes proir to that?

anything done now would just get broken by the expansion

[tekhiun]

nothing gets fixed until Makeb and lvl55 is released.

why would they do any balance changes proir to that?

anything done now would just get broken by the expansion

 

Why ? So we dont have to wait 3 months to see if they manage to fix the issue. They don't need to rebalance all the ACs just put the broken ones the way they were until they find a reasonable configuration

[biowareftw]

Why ? So we dont have to wait 3 months to see if they manage to fix the issue. They don't need to rebalance all the ACs just put the broken ones the way they were until they find a reasonable configuration

 

^. We are currently paying for something that is broken (from the devs own mouths, bubble stun is broken), and then paying for a expansion, when we are currently experiencing ineptitude by the development team.

 

We are being asked to invest in this game in good faith that they might one day fix crap, when they could fix it now, but refuse to do so. That isn't exactly a great marketing pitch for the expansion.

 

Why should I believe they won't do something even dumber in the expansion and then take a year to fix that? This development team needs to show us that they a) have a clue. b) care.

Edited January 30, 2013 by biowareftw

[GNWP]

Hotfix this stuff now. You have done it with other classes. If you want us to shell out more money for an expansion, show us you have a clue. Many of us bought DD and CE editions, and kept our monthly sub for quite awhile. We come back to give the game another chance and the pvp is now WORSE then it was in the past?

No, no, no! Bioware got to make new sets and toys for Cartel Market. No hotfixes for you, PvPers!

 

The state of PVP has given BW 14 days remaining on my sub. I wouldn't call it PVP anymore, more like PVBW.

BW broke it, they either can't or won't fix it, since it doens't fit into their F2P "cash" model...

Awesome phrases. Straight to the point.

nothing gets fixed until Makeb and lvl55 is released.

why would they do any balance changes proir to that?

anything done now would just get broken by the expansion

This isn't about "rebalancing"! This is about "making things as it should be"!

Edited January 30, 2013 by GNWP

[GNWP]

*deleted* Edited January 30, 2013 by GNWP

[Amebia]

And commandos don't need to be brought in line with the other classes?

 

You may as well say rage is balanced. Derp

[Devlonir]

This isn't about "rebalancing"! This is about "making things as it should be"!

And if Smash and Bubbles get fixed todat we won't be whining about another necessary nerf next week at all!

 

/sarcasm

 

Now, I agree there are some very bad things about both Smash and the Bubble ability. But to scream now for a change so close to a rise in level cap and demanding effort to be put in rebalancing (because any change in PVP balance needs all situations to be rebalanced, not matter how much you claim otherwise) will only mean less time put into balancing new content.

 

As a Sage player, would I be sad to see Bubble stun changed to it's former self? (aka, Bubble Mezz, which was a lot less used back then). I honestly wouldn't care either way. I've played with the talent in my tree well before it became a stun and it did good work back then as well. Only real downside is how easilly the mezz gets broken when someone attacks you. The only thing it was really good at was interrupting a Ravage/Master Strike. So it really barely added to Sage personal survivability.

Maybe a bubble knockback or a bubble root (ya know, like Frost Mages had in WoW) would be a better option than a bubble stun and fit the Sage/Sorc class a lot better while not being an iWIN for all other classes that just make use of the short stun.

 

The thing is: The talent is needed for Sages, especially in certain specs. But it can be switched to work differently and be less annoying than a stun. Or, of course, the change to make it only work on the Sage themselves. Though I personally dislike this change because nothing will frustrate me more than another Sage shielding me. It is already bad enough when a healer without the bubble stun does it right now. If every bubble would not use the ability I spent talent points on, I'd be very POed.

 

And when it comes to Smash specs.. the problem there is not it's personal damage as so many claim but it's stackability. It is so easy to stack enough warriors to have a Smash Mob that kills an entire area every Force Leap cooldown. That enormous burst that barely requires setup time is the real issue here. Combined, as well, with the survivability/stun resist cooldowns of the classes meaning it is impossible to ensure a skilled Rage spec does not do his trick at least 2-3 times before dying.

 

What I'm trying to say is.. handling all these actual problems that go well beyond the bubble and Smash damage alone is much more complex than many here claim. So don't demand Bioware to do stupid actions with the threat of leaving. The actual community of a game would prefer you to leave so whines like those do not cause the game to become even more unbalanced in the long run.

[GNWP]

And if Smash and Bubbles get fixed todat we won't be whining about another necessary nerf next week at all!

 

/sarcasm

 

Now, I agree there are some very bad things about both Smash and the Bubble ability. But to scream now for a change so close to a rise in level cap and demanding effort to be put in rebalancing (because any change in PVP balance needs all situations to be rebalanced, not matter how much you claim otherwise) will only mean less time put into balancing new content.

 

As a Sage player, would I be sad to see Bubble stun changed to it's former self? (aka, Bubble Mezz, which was a lot less used back then). I honestly wouldn't care either way. I've played with the talent in my tree well before it became a stun and it did good work back then as well. Only real downside is how easilly the mezz gets broken when someone attacks you. The only thing it was really good at was interrupting a Ravage/Master Strike. So it really barely added to Sage personal survivability.

Maybe a bubble knockback or a bubble root (ya know, like Frost Mages had in WoW) would be a better option than a bubble stun and fit the Sage/Sorc class a lot better while not being an iWIN for all other classes that just make use of the short stun.

 

The thing is: The talent is needed for Sages, especially in certain specs. But it can be switched to work differently and be less annoying than a stun. Or, of course, the change to make it only work on the Sage themselves. Though I personally dislike this change because nothing will frustrate me more than another Sage shielding me. It is already bad enough when a healer without the bubble stun does it right now. If every bubble would not use the ability I spent talent points on, I'd be very POed.

 

And when it comes to Smash specs.. the problem there is not it's personal damage as so many claim but it's stackability. It is so easy to stack enough warriors to have a Smash Mob that kills an entire area every Force Leap cooldown. That enormous burst that barely requires setup time is the real issue here. Combined, as well, with the survivability/stun resist cooldowns of the classes meaning it is impossible to ensure a skilled Rage spec does not do his trick at least 2-3 times before dying.

 

What I'm trying to say is.. handling all these actual problems that go well beyond the bubble and Smash damage alone is much more complex than many here claim. So don't demand Bioware to do stupid actions with the threat of leaving. The actual community of a game would prefer you to leave so whines like those do not cause the game to become even more unbalanced in the long run.

 

Bubble stun generates 300 Resolve instead of 600. Is it balance issue? No. It's... I have no words for this. And it is in the game since 1.4.

Edited January 30, 2013 by GNWP

[Eszi]

State of pvp: http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t15/Fumantau-/lolsmash_zps921706b9.gif

[Frakkensteinse]

State of pvp: http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t15/Fumantau-/lolsmash_zps921706b9.gif

 

Awesome!!! Lol!

[tekhiun]

State of pvp: http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t15/Fumantau-/lolsmash_zps921706b9.gif

 

ROFL !!!!

And this too

 

http://99gifs.com/-img/5099b3a5afa96f1daf000c05.gif

Edited January 30, 2013 by tekhiun

[biowareftw]

State of pvp: http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t15/Fumantau-/lolsmash_zps921706b9.gif

 

Greatest thing I have ever seen.

[Melaku]

State of pvp: http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t15/Fumantau-/lolsmash_zps921706b9.gif

 

Yup, I think I saw something like that yesterday. I personnally dont use bubblespec because it's not fun to play and really annoying. I use full madness.

[TheGreatFrosty]

The rage buff and bubble sorc specs simply removed the skill cap and completely ruined pvp

 

All this.

 

The worst thing is that Bioware seems utterly incapable of simply fixing it in a weekly patch. It has to wait till a 2 month release, and they'll probably call it content and do a PR video about it.

 

The bubble stun should be fixed immediately. it's a defensive, not an offensive, do what everyone has been asking and make the stun apply to the sage only.

[GNWP]

All this.

 

The worst thing is that Bioware seems utterly incapable of simply fixing it in a weekly patch. It has to wait till a 2 month release, and they'll probably call it content and do a PR video about it.

 

The bubble stun should be fixed immediately. it's a defensive, not an offensive, do what everyone has been asking and make the stun apply to the sage only.

By this time I start to think that Bioware employees can't read their own forums. And because they actually don't play their own game too, they just DON'T know that stun bubble generates 300 Resolve instead of 600 and that this thing is in the game since September of 2012.

[thendrix]

Wrong. You seem to think marauder/sent was the first class I leveled, or that it is the only class I played, or that I don't enjoy playing carnage as well as annihilation.

 

I played a scoundrel/op as well. Liu-kang on the fatman server. I absolutely wrecked kids on my scoundrel. The most "broken" part of the class was adrenal/biochem/warzone stacking. Any burst class could so the same, it is just that most good sub rogues from WoW gravitated to the "sub rogue class", and actually started min/maxing long before everyone else, and at that point people had no idea that sniper's weren't that bad, or that PT pyro could single target burst your face off.

 

Am I saying that it didn't need a nerf? Not at all. I could solo cap against 4 people. They gave the class more control and toned down the burst. That was fine. Where scoundrels/ops got completely screwed, was when bubble stun was added. A class that relies on control/stunlocking being auto stunned on their opener? Defeats the whole purpose of a "rogue class", which is WHY team bubble stun was such an awful change. OP/scoundrel viability would go up 10 fold if bubblestun was removed, as would dps sins.

 

ATM it is hyrbid sins/smash/bubblesorc/other healer (usually scoundrel/op) and a carnage/combat marauder to run them around at 80 percent speed. No other classes really need apply. You can get by with other comps, but you are just outplaying the people who go the easy route. Just because you can succeed with an inferior comp, doesn't mean that another comp is not imbalanced. Hell I got a stupidly high arena ranking in WoW with a Elemental Shaman/Ret Pally at one point. We were the only people even playing the comp (2's mattered in that expansion). It was garbage. It was my friend though and I wanted to get him ranking weapons.

 

What we have here in SWTOR was a bad move in buffing the rage tree (when both SW trees were perfectly viable). and then trying to fix that by adding more CC to a game that has plenty of cc already. Both are wrong, both shouldn't be in the game. It is asinine that a target switch after "setting up singularity" (which is easy), hits harder then a stealth opener. What makes it even stupider is that it is an aoe. It also requires no positional requirement (being behind the target).

 

This is the easiest fix in the world...revert the changes. This isn't asking for a new game engine or anything. It is obvious that darn near the entire player base wants this fixed pronto. The only people that want to keep it, either A) have never played a melee, and don't realize just how stupid bubble stun is, or B) play the melee spec that bubble stun was supposed to help slow down.

 

There is nothing for Bioware/EA to lose from fixing this, and they risk alienating the hardcores who have stayed with them if they don't. The PVE Crowd? They could care less as long as the abilities work in a raid, and...noone raids as focus/rage anyways in any guild who has decent progression.

 

You are right on with your analysis of the pre-1.2 scoundrel/op situation. Most of the players playing that class from launch already knew what it would take to min/max their stats to create a ridiculous burst. Of course this created a great deal of issues as the majority of the player base did not have the hp or gearing experience to deal with a rogue class.

 

The shame of it all is that as gear and hp has drastically increased there has not been a single buff back to the scrapper spec in terms of DPS. While the controlling abilities and speed buff were nice, they truly pale in comparison to almost all of the other class buffs that were thrown out there. Now, I rarely roll around in a DPS spec because it is simply beyond anyone players skill to be truly effective in a WZ compared to other DPS classes.

 

This however is not all that new of a situation in MMOs. Usually a rogue class will get nerfed once the skilled players get their gear fine tuned. We always know how to turn a raw DPS class into something ridiculous even though we sacrifice a great deal of survivability. However, the scrapper nerfs in SWTOR have by far been the the most drastic I have ever seen done to a rogue class. Thankfully I can just respec to an OP healing spec in order to maintain some semblance of sanity.

[Trevalion]

You are right on with your analysis of the pre-1.2 scoundrel/op situation. .... Usually a rogue class will get nerfed once the skilled players get their gear fine tuned. We always know how to turn a raw DPS class into something ridiculous even though we sacrifice a great deal of survivability. However, the scrapper nerfs in SWTOR have by far been the the most drastic I have ever seen done to a rogue class. Thankfully I can just respec to an OP healing spec in order to maintain some semblance of sanity.

 

I dont understand why you think this thread is about nerfing operatives.

 

The op wrote an excellent summary about why smash and bubble stun need to be fixed right away, and you focused on nerfing operatives. There is no good reason why we have had NO communication regarding these two abilities from BW. There is no good reason why, even though the pvp playerbase obviously do not approve of them, they have not been addressed at all.

 

+1 for this thread for sure.

/signed

[Aowin]

While I agree that Focus and the Seer/Telekinetics (Bubble stun) hybrid are overpowered, they aren't the only classes. They by far can appear to be the most disruptive with the Sage/Sorc's ability to completely CC an entire group based on giving players force armor, and the Knight/Warrior's ability to sweep a person with 5000+ crits consistently. This game has much bigger issues than just these two though.

 

The root of this issue goes back to 1.2 and revamping expertise. As many of you who have been here since pre-1.2 know, expertise was worthless when the game first launched. It was so bad that players were using PvE gear instead of PvP gear to fully optimize their characters. In order to try to fix this issue, BioWare did a few things. First and foremost, they reduced the diminishing returns on expertise so PvP gear was more useful.

 

With this increase, however, expertise drastically increased the power of DPS classes, as damage got the largest boost, while healers and tanks got the shaft. Ever since the expertise change, this game has become an absolute DPS/CC race. Pre-1.2 we only had to deal with a few OP classes, ranging from scrapper/concealment scoundrels/operatives, gunnery commandos/mercenaries, and assault specialist/pyrotech vanguards/powertechs.

 

Scoundrels and commandos (especially after 1.2) were nerfed, and vanguards/powertechs received a "slap" on the wrist. Sage/Sorcerer Hybrid DPS also received a nerf to put in line the amount of damage they could generate. Healers were also nerfed, and so was surge and a few other elements of the game. Suffice it to say, with the changes in expertise, new problems have arisen since then, and BioWare has failed to tackle them.

 

Here is my own personal list of classes that are overpowered:

Assault specialist/Pyrotech Vanguard/Powertech (The six second cooldown on proc'ing high impact bolt/rail shot has done little to constrain the high amounts of burst and DOTs this class can generate with a very small and simple rotation).

Seer/Telekinetics Hybrid Sage/Sorcerer (Bubble stun has made it essentially impossible for all melee classes to defeat this class as melee classes are constantly stunned and the force armor stun barely even raises the resolve bar. This has made it customary for all rated wz premades to have a sage/sorc in this spec at all times as you will lose if you don't have it).

Focus Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior (The shared tree for this class is absolutely ridiculous as a min/maxed player stacking all power (where are the diminishing returns?) and strength can literally do consistent 6000+ sweeps/smashes to most opponents, besides tanks. This class in the hands of a quality PvPer can easily dismantle most players in about four to five shots, if that).

Jedi Sentinel/Sith Marauder (Ever since 1.2, this class has been one of the DPS powerhouses. The issue, however, isn't necessarily with it's damage (although Focus and Combat could use some re-balancing), but rather it's survivability. With abilities such as "Guarded by the Force," "Force Camoflauge," "Pacify," "Rebuke," "Zen," this Glass Canon has more defensive cooldowns than my Jedi Guardian Defense, and their cooldowns are much shorter (the sentinel defensive abilities are also much better than my guardian's). Not to forget that "Crippling throw" reduces healing effectiveness by 20% for 12 seconds (gunslingers/snipers also have an ability like this) and they have a wide assortment of group buffs that are extremely valuable).

Gunslinger/Sniper (One of the few classes which has systematically received a buff in virtually every patch it has been included in for class balance. This class by far is probably the most powerful DPS class in the game, and again has a variety of defensive cooldowns, as well as roots, CC, and a 30m knock back, that make it almost impossible to defeat. Unless one is playing one of the other overpowered classes in Warzones, one or more of these guys can pick a team apart).

Kinetic Combat/Balance Hybrid Shadow/Assassin (Even with the nerf to this classes' armor rating and cutting the effectiveness of their healing in half, it still continues to be the best tank in PvP and likely the entire game as a whole. Not only is this a tank that has many short cooldowns on its defensive abilities, but it has stealth, the ability to heal itself, force pull which is invaluable in Huttball, and can generate a large amount of damage in this hybrid spec. I have consistently seen quality players generate 300,000+ damage, 200,000+ protection, and 50,000+ healing with this particular class and spec. No other tank even comes close to how utterly amazing/ridiculous this class is).

Sawbones Scoundrel/Operative (This healer is by far the best in PvP, excluding bubble stun sages/sorcs who are more support. They are mobile, many of their heals are HOTs, they are constantly proc'ing upper hand on crits, have an extremely powerful instant AOE heal in kolto cloud, have stealth, plenty of CC, have a variety of defensive cooldowns, and can essentially heal a person nonstop under 30% health without the need of upper hand. This class coupled with a bubble stun sage/sorc and a tank of which is usually a shadow or an assassin is virtually impossible to kill.)

 

Just for some background I have a Guardian, Sage, Vanguard, Scoundrel. I have experimented and tested most of my classes' skill trees. I also have an up and coming Sentinel, and it's really easy to see the class disparities and what the most striking issues are. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the best classes are the ones the "best" PvP guilds stack consistently in premades and in rated warzones. The typical rated warzone build consists of two shadow/assassin tanks, one sage/sorc bubble stun, one scoundrel/operative healer, one gunslinger/sniper, two assault spec/pyrotech vanguards/powertechs, and usually one focus knight/warrior, of which is most often a sentinel/marauder as they have better advanced-class specific abilities. Anything that has not been mentioned is either unpowered in comparison, or isn't worth mentioning.

 

There is a lot of work to be done BioWare, as class balance in this game is vastly worse than it was at launch. DPS needs to be put in check, CC needs to be reconsidered, resolved should be tossed out for a more sensible system, as well as making shields for tanks in Warzones actually useful. Whether BioWare looks at any of this or doesn't care, not much I can do about it. This is just my own personal experience with classes in this game and citing the ones that seem to be the most issue.

[biowareftw]

While I agree that Focus and the Seer/Telekinetics (Bubble stun) hybrid are overpowered, they aren't the only classes. They by far can appear to be the most disruptive with the Sage/Sorc's ability to completely CC an entire group based on giving players force armor, and the Knight/Warrior's ability to sweep a person with 5000+ crits consistently. This game has much bigger issues than just these two though.

 

The root of this issue goes back to 1.2 and revamping expertise. As many of you who have been here since pre-1.2 know, expertise was worthless when the game first launched. It was so bad that players were using PvE gear instead of PvP gear to fully optimize their characters. In order to try to fix this issue, BioWare did a few things. First and foremost, they reduced the diminishing returns on expertise so PvP gear was more useful.

 

With this increase, however, expertise drastically increased the power of DPS classes, as damage got the largest boost, while healers and tanks got the shaft. Ever since the expertise change, this game has become an absolute DPS/CC race. Pre-1.2 we only had to deal with a few OP classes, ranging from scrapper/concealment scoundrels/operatives, gunnery commandos/mercenaries, and assault specialist/pyrotech vanguards/powertechs.

 

Scoundrels and commandos (especially after 1.2) were nerfed, and vanguards/powertechs received a "slap" on the wrist. Sage/Sorcerer Hybrid DPS also received a nerf to put in line the amount of damage they could generate. Healers were also nerfed, and so was surge and a few other elements of the game. Suffice it to say, with the changes in expertise, new problems have arisen since then, and BioWare has failed to tackle them.

 

Here is my own personal list of classes that are overpowered:

Assault specialist/Pyrotech Vanguard/Powertech (The six second cooldown on proc'ing high impact bolt/rail shot has done little to constrain the high amounts of burst and DOTs this class can generate with a very small and simple rotation).

Seer/Telekinetics Hybrid Sage/Sorcerer (Bubble stun has made it essentially impossible for all melee classes to defeat this class as melee classes are constantly stunned and the force armor stun barely even raises the resolve bar. This has made it customary for all rated wz premades to have a sage/sorc in this spec at all times as you will lose if you don't have it).

Focus Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior (The shared tree for this class is absolutely ridiculous as a min/maxed player stacking all power (where are the diminishing returns?) and strength can literally do consistent 6000+ sweeps/smashes to most opponents, besides tanks. This class in the hands of a quality PvPer can easily dismantle most players in about four to five shots, if that).

Jedi Sentinel/Sith Marauder (Ever since 1.2, this class has been one of the DPS powerhouses. The issue, however, isn't necessarily with it's damage (although Focus and Combat could use some re-balancing), but rather it's survivability. With abilities such as "Guarded by the Force," "Force Camoflauge," "Pacify," "Rebuke," "Zen," this Glass Canon has more defensive cooldowns than my Jedi Guardian Defense, and their cooldowns are much shorter (the sentinel defensive abilities are also much better than my guardian's). Not to forget that "Crippling throw" reduces healing effectiveness by 20% for 12 seconds (gunslingers/snipers also have an ability like this) and they have a wide assortment of group buffs that are extremely valuable).

Gunslinger/Sniper (One of the few classes which has systematically received a buff in virtually every patch it has been included in for class balance. This class by far is probably the most powerful DPS class in the game, and again has a variety of defensive cooldowns, as well as roots, CC, and a 30m knock back, that make it almost impossible to defeat. Unless one is playing one of the other overpowered classes in Warzones, one or more of these guys can pick a team apart).

Kinetic Combat/Balance Hybrid Shadow/Assassin (Even with the nerf to this classes' armor rating and cutting the effectiveness of their healing in half, it still continues to be the best tank in PvP and likely the entire game as a whole. Not only is this a tank that has many short cooldowns on its defensive abilities, but it has stealth, the ability to heal itself, force pull which is invaluable in Huttball, and can generate a large amount of damage in this hybrid spec. I have consistently seen quality players generate 300,000+ damage, 200,000+ protection, and 50,000+ healing with this particular class and spec. No other tank even comes close to how utterly amazing/ridiculous this class is).

Sawbones Scoundrel/Operative (This healer is by far the best in PvP, excluding bubble stun sages/sorcs who are more support. They are mobile, many of their heals are HOTs, they are constantly proc'ing upper hand on crits, have an extremely powerful instant AOE heal in kolto cloud, have stealth, plenty of CC, have a variety of defensive cooldowns, and can essentially heal a person nonstop under 30% health without the need of upper hand. This class coupled with a bubble stun sage/sorc and a tank of which is usually a shadow or an assassin is virtually impossible to kill.)

 

Just for some background I have a Guardian, Sage, Vanguard, Scoundrel. I have experimented and tested most of my classes' skill trees. I also have an up and coming Sentinel, and it's really easy to see the class disparities and what the most striking issues are. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the best classes are the ones the "best" PvP guilds stack consistently in premades and in rated warzones. The typical rated warzone build consists of two shadow/assassin tanks, one sage/sorc bubble stun, one scoundrel/operative healer, one gunslinger/sniper, two assault spec/pyrotech vanguards/powertechs, and usually one focus knight/warrior, of which is most often a sentinel/marauder as they have better advanced-class specific abilities. Anything that has not been mentioned is either unpowered in comparison, or isn't worth mentioning.

 

There is a lot of work to be done BioWare, as class balance in this game is vastly worse than it was at launch. DPS needs to be put in check, CC needs to be reconsidered, resolved should be tossed out for a more sensible system, as well as making shields for tanks in Warzones actually useful. Whether BioWare looks at any of this or doesn't care, not much I can do about it. This is just my own personal experience with classes in this game and citing the ones that seem to be the most issue.

 

Some good points. I would counter with this. Many of the "anti-classes" to the classes you view as overpowered? You simply don't see in ranked WZ's due to smash/carnage speed buff/bubblestun.

 

I can obliterate a PT Pyro or any spec of JK/SW on an operative/scoundrel. The problem? I can't do that without my opener due to bubble stun in a pvp match. Bubblestun simply makes heavy armor or heavy defensive cooldown dps WAY too powerful. Combine the adrenal with the defensive cooldown on a PT pyro and then add bubblestun to it? You take what is supposed to be a glass cannon/soft target, burst or die AC, and turn it into a wrecking machine. Rage/focus Jugs/Knights were also very glass cannon like in the past. Marauder/sent? We had no business getting that kind of aoe burst when we already had defensive cooldowns. It was simply a horrible move by Bioware to give us a third pvp spec when we already had two (which is more then most classes have).

 

Add to that sniper is the anti jk/sw AC. Noone plays them though, because they are a self turret class that is going to get multismashed. Against one smasher they are fantastic. Against multi smashers they are not that great. Their accuracy debuff does nothing to the rage/focus tree as smash/sweep is not subject to accuracy debuffs (which I think is the dumbest thing in the world). The sniper is also a late bloomer (unless you twink it out at low levels, in which they hit like trucks), so many people quit them and reroll something else. Add to all this, that a tank sin is pretty much unkillable for a sniper and that is the most stacked tank.

 

In short, and I know I like to write lenghty posts, and I don't know how coherent this is because I have a killer migraine atm.

 

Removing bubblestun would help some of the "weaker specs" a ton, and many of those "weaker specs" are very good at taking down classes that are viewed as "overpowered classes". Would additional changes need to be made? Sure. Should those changes ever involve more CC in this game, ever again? H-E double hockey stick no.

 

Slight buffs/nerfs should be made, which prevents all this flavor of the month crap, which just leads to stupidly insane nerfs or people abandoning a class all together.

[thendrix]

I dont understand why you think this thread is about nerfing operatives.

 

The op wrote an excellent summary about why smash and bubble stun need to be fixed right away, and you focused on nerfing operatives. There is no good reason why we have had NO communication regarding these two abilities from BW. There is no good reason why, even though the pvp playerbase obviously do not approve of them, they have not been addressed at all.

 

+1 for this thread for sure.

/signed

 

Whoa

 

I wrote back on a post that spoke to a nerf to scoundrels/ops due to previous posts. Just because I did not write another few paragraphs in a agreement on nerfing smashing and bubbling does not make the post impertinent. This thread is in general about the state of PVP and class issues. I focused on one in order to avoid writing a book. The OP is spot on and is obviously well versed in MMOs so I don't have much to add to what he has already stated.

 

To appease you:

There has been little attention to PVP class balance since 1.2. The turnover at Bioware has created a divide between current and previous game design. Evening out the gear gap by providing affordable WH gear and a rather minuscule upgrade with EWH has actually made the class imbalances even more apparent. While many thought this would level the playing field to be based around skill, it is now based around which FOTM class to choose next. I would not be surprised to see nerfs and buffs before Makeb(wishful thinking), but I have little hope that it will nullify this constant FOTM class rotation.

 

We are also all ignoring the fact that it is our community that makes these issues even worse. It is unfortunate that there is such a huge player base that will reroll simply to play whatever class or spec is overpowered. Pre 1.2 I was dropping into rounds with 4 or more DPS scrappers, post 1.2 it was pyrotech mania, and now it is smash or bubble. In all honesty I have pretty much given up on PVP in SWTOR and for the first time in an MMO actually enjoying more PVE. The constant imbalance issues are really just too much to deal with, and making SWTOR fall further and further down my priority list of gaming. PVP has always been my main focus and it is rather sad to lose interest in a game due to the rather inane player base and lack of developer attention.

[Aowin]

Some good points. I would counter with this. Many of the "anti-classes" to the classes you view as overpowered? You simply don't see in ranked WZ's due to smash/carnage speed buff/bubblestun.

 

I can obliterate a PT Pyro or any spec of JK/SW on an operative/scoundrel. The problem? I can't do that without my opener due to bubble stun in a pvp match. Bubblestun simply makes heavy armor or heavy defensive cooldown dps WAY too powerful. Combine the adrenal with the defensive cooldown on a PT pyro and then add bubblestun to it? You take what is supposed to be a glass cannon/soft target, burst or die AC, and turn it into a wrecking machine. Rage/focus Jugs/Knights were also very glass cannon like in the past. Marauder/sent? We had no business getting that kind of aoe burst when we already had defensive cooldowns. It was simply a horrible move by Bioware to give us a third pvp spec when we already had two (which is more then most classes have).

 

Add to that sniper is the anti jk/sw AC. Noone plays them though, because they are a self turret class that is going to get multismashed. Against one smasher they are fantastic. Against multi smashers they are not that great. Their accuracy debuff does nothing to the rage/focus tree as smash/sweep is not subject to accuracy debuffs (which I think is the dumbest thing in the world). The sniper is also a late bloomer (unless you twink it out at low levels, in which they hit like trucks), so many people quit them and reroll something else. Add to all this, that a tank sin is pretty much unkillable for a sniper and that is the most stacked tank.

 

In short, and I know I like to write lenghty posts, and I don't know how coherent this is because I have a killer migraine atm.

 

Removing bubblestun would help some of the "weaker specs" a ton, and many of those "weaker specs" are very good at taking down classes that are viewed as "overpowered classes". Would additional changes need to be made? Sure. Should those changes ever involve more CC in this game, ever again? H-E double hockey stick no.

 

Slight buffs/nerfs should be made, which prevents all this flavor of the month crap, which just leads to stupidly insane nerfs or people abandoning a class all together.

 

I definitely agree with you. Focus spec and especially Bubble stun spec are the first things that BioWare needs to fix as they are utterly game-breaking and there really is no counter to them (especially with how melee-oriented this game is). Remove bubble stuns and that would certainly make the burst classes that are meant to be glass cannons act like glass cannons. Nerf focus and you not only fix a class that really has no counter (unless you have resilience, guarded by the force, or a tank), but it is still a glass cannon that can be easily dealt with. It also resolves the issue of sentinels and marauders having another viable burst spec with no counter while they maintain their survivability.

 

That being said, as I listed above, there are plenty of things that BioWare would need to consider after fixing bubble stun and Focus. They are some of the most apparent issues with class balance, but they aren't the only ones and there are plenty of classes that could use make-overs. We'll see what BioWare ultimately does as they seem to think class balance is "pretty good," so I'm a little skeptical any comprehensive change is going to happen anytime soon. For now, I'll continue to be forced to play Focus on my Guardian as Defense and Vigilance are utterly worthless in PvP (much like Vanguard's Tactics and Shield specs).

 

I don't know if you remember back in Game Testing, but BioWare had this philosophy about how they wanted their PvP battles to be much longer and more drawn out than the typical MMORPG. They didn't want to be that game where a class could kill another class in a matter of seconds, like other MMORPGs. For the most part, that was true at launch (besides scrapper/concealment specs), but since then BioWare has gotten further and further away from the philosophy. I think if they just go back to their roots, slow down DPS in general, the game would be much better off.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Aowin