Smash isn't that bad

[CharlieMitchell]

Well the issue is that for rage specced Juggs Smash is really their only source of dps. Mauraders have other methods of dishing out lots of damage, but aside from smash a Jugg really cant put out good dps with their other abilities.

[LarryRow]

Let's take a step back for a second. Smash/Sweep used to have severe animation problems and Bioware took steps to correct this. Additionally, Rage used to seriously underperform the other specs in PvE, and that was an issue. You can argue about how unfair it is that Bioware favors PvE or that we should have PvP specific specs/abilities, but that's another discussion. The fact is that they buffed the spec to make it viable in PvE. Their MISTAKE was to buff the one skill that was already hitting really hard ("derp, Smash tree needs buff, so buff Smash").

 

Now we are seeing 2 things:

1. Players can actually land their smashes (name another heavy hitter that is/was so easily countered. All I can think of is Gore -> whatever).

2. More frequent and potent smashes (due to armor pen and cooldown buffs).

 

Clearly #1 was absolutely necessary for the playability of the spec. But #2 is what was making us all scratch our heads when the patch notes came out. Actually it went something like this:

1. Scratch Head

2. Roll Knight/Warrior

3. ?????

4. Profit

 

Seriously, Rage/Focus is not that different than what it used to be (and it was fine then). It is just overtuned. Take the armor pen buff and the cooldown buff and make those buffs for other damaging abilities within the spec.

 

The answer is to smooth damage within the spec.

The answer is NOT to "nerf Smash" and thereby ruin the other specs that use it.

 

By the way, the idea that "You can take onerous steps to counter Smash, therefore it's fine!" is pretty silly. Right up there with "pop the bubble from range." Once again we are being asked to tailor our playstyle to an obviously out-of-balance element of the game.

 

*Edited last paragraph for clarity.

Edited January 24, 2013 by LarryRow

[Technohic]

Let's take a step back for a second. Smash/Sweep used to have severe animation problems and Bioware took steps to correct this. Additionally, Rage used to seriously underperform the other specs in PvE, and that was an issue. You can argue about how unfair it is that Bioware favors PvE or that we should have PvP specific specs/abilities, but that's another discussion. The fact is that they buffed the spec to make it viable in PvE. Their MISTAKE was to buff the one skill that was already hitting really hard ("derp, Smash tree needs buff, so buff Smash").

 

Now we are seeing 2 things:

1. Players can actually land their smashes (name another heavy hitter that is/was so easily countered. All I can think of is Gore -> whatever).

2. More frequent and potent smashes (due to armor pen and cooldown buffs).

 

Clearly #1 was absolutely necessary for the playability of the spec. But #2 is what was making us all scratch our heads when the patch notes came out. Actually it went something like this:

1. Scratch Head

2. Roll Knight/Warrior

3. ?????

4. Profit

 

Seriously, Rage/Focus is not that different than what it used to be (and it was fine then). It is just overtuned. Take the armor pen buff and the cooldown buff and make those buffs for other damaging abilities within the spec.

 

The answer is to smooth damage within the spec.

The answer is NOT to "nerf Smash" and thereby ruin the other specs that use it.

 

By the way, the idea that you can take steps to counter Smash is pretty silly. Right up there with "pop the bubble from range." Once again we are being asked to tailor our playstyle to an obviously out-of-balance element of the game.

 

I can agree with this. this actually feels like an even handed post.

 

Right now, my counter is, stay MM Sniper and stay away, as well as hit entrench.

[Kovaos]

The answer is to smooth damage within the spec.

The answer is NOT to "nerf Smash" and thereby ruin the other specs that use it.

 

The ability itself does not need nerfed. The process that builds up to the auto crit so often does.

[K_osss]

There is so much misinformation in this thread it's unbelievable. I doubt bioware will find anything here useful unless they're looking for subjective opinions.

The thing I think I found most humorous was the "spammable" comment.

[ArchangelLBC]

Let's take a step back for a second. Smash/Sweep used to have severe animation problems and Bioware took steps to correct this. Additionally, Rage used to seriously underperform the other specs in PvE, and that was an issue. You can argue about how unfair it is that Bioware favors PvE or that we should have PvP specific specs/abilities, but that's another discussion. The fact is that they buffed the spec to make it viable in PvE. Their MISTAKE was to buff the one skill that was already hitting really hard ("derp, Smash tree needs buff, so buff Smash").

 

Now we are seeing 2 things:

1. Players can actually land their smashes (name another heavy hitter that is/was so easily countered. All I can think of is Gore -> whatever).

2. More frequent and potent smashes (due to armor pen and cooldown buffs).

 

Clearly #1 was absolutely necessary for the playability of the spec. But #2 is what was making us all scratch our heads when the patch notes came out. Actually it went something like this:

1. Scratch Head

2. Roll Knight/Warrior

3. ?????

4. Profit

 

Seriously, Rage/Focus is not that different than what it used to be (and it was fine then). It is just overtuned. Take the armor pen buff and the cooldown buff and make those buffs for other damaging abilities within the spec.

 

The answer is to smooth damage within the spec.

The answer is NOT to "nerf Smash" and thereby ruin the other specs that use it.

 

By the way, the idea that "You can take onerous steps to counter Smash, therefore it's fine!" is pretty silly. Right up there with "pop the bubble from range." Once again we are being asked to tailor our playstyle to an obviously out-of-balance element of the game.

 

*Edited last paragraph for clarity.

 

Actually I agree with all of this. Remove the cooldown buff (which is patently ridiculous, especially with how fast you can build centering on Sent so get singularity stacks) replacing it with a buff to something else, and make the armor pen buff only for certain abilities (that aren't smash) and perhaps mess with the auto crit nature of smash. Smooth out the damage so the single target DPS is more or less the same but the contribution of smash to that is lessened. It would make the spec more fun to play, and would make the tree more palatable in warzones, while still maintaining it's PVE potential (since the AoE portion of it is mostly a novelty in PVE).

 

And then lets address bubble stuns and let me go back to combat spec asap.

[Savej]

Let's take a step back for a second. Smash/Sweep used to have severe animation problems and Bioware took steps to correct this. Additionally, Rage used to seriously underperform the other specs in PvE, and that was an issue. You can argue about how unfair it is that Bioware favors PvE or that we should have PvP specific specs/abilities, but that's another discussion. The fact is that they buffed the spec to make it viable in PvE. Their MISTAKE was to buff the one skill that was already hitting really hard ("derp, Smash tree needs buff, so buff Smash").

 

Now we are seeing 2 things:

1. Players can actually land their smashes (name another heavy hitter that is/was so easily countered. All I can think of is Gore -> whatever).

2. More frequent and potent smashes (due to armor pen and cooldown buffs).

 

Clearly #1 was absolutely necessary for the playability of the spec. But #2 is what was making us all scratch our heads when the patch notes came out. Actually it went something like this:

1. Scratch Head

2. Roll Knight/Warrior

3. ?????

4. Profit

 

Seriously, Rage/Focus is not that different than what it used to be (and it was fine then). It is just overtuned. Take the armor pen buff and the cooldown buff and make those buffs for other damaging abilities within the spec.

 

The answer is to smooth damage within the spec.

The answer is NOT to "nerf Smash" and thereby ruin the other specs that use it.

 

By the way, the idea that "You can take onerous steps to counter Smash, therefore it's fine!" is pretty silly. Right up there with "pop the bubble from range." Once again we are being asked to tailor our playstyle to an obviously out-of-balance element of the game.

 

*Edited last paragraph for clarity.

 

If you do the math, the extra armor pen works out to an extra couple hundred pts per smash vs light armor targets. It is not a game changer and min/maxxed smashers are -not- hitting noticeably harder post 1.4 than pre 1.4, they are just hitting more often/reliably as you mentioned.

 

BTW smash is very counterable in group play and 1v1 smashers are very beatable by just about every class/spec (no gaurantees tho - player skill and gear matter). No one's spelled out exactly what is so OP about the spec: an untaunted 6k crit vs unguarded characters with over 20k health followed by a long pause and telegraphed setup steps for a repeat is NOT the end of the world and it's not more pvp damage than other classes can put out. If you have a bunch of smashers with enrage/zen ready and charge off cooldown and they're on vent then yes, they can almost instantly do a lot of damage to one (or more) target(s) if <a whole bunch of other things aren't happening> but that is neither a game breaker or any different from a bunch of other dps classes on vent with cooldowns up that can also focus a target(s) very fast. As far as I can see most of the whining is by people that have perception/observation problems (and weak tactics) and/or a prejudice vs melees. The results scoreboards that I routinely see do not support a blanket "smash needs a nerf asap we don't need to back that up it's obvious". If the class was so easy and as truly "obviously" op'd the numbers should be there every time.

[foxmob]

If you do the math, the extra armor pen works out to an extra couple hundred pts per smash vs light armor targets. It is not a game changer and min/maxxed smashers are -not- hitting noticeably harder post 1.4 than pre 1.4, they are just hitting more often/reliably as you mentioned.

 

BTW smash is very counterable in group play and 1v1 smashers are very beatable by just about every class/spec (no gaurantees tho - player skill and gear matter). No one's spelled out exactly what is so OP about the spec: an untaunted 6k crit vs unguarded characters with over 20k health followed by a long pause and telegraphed setup steps for a repeat is NOT the end of the world and it's not more pvp damage than other classes can put out. If you have a bunch of smashers with enrage/zen ready and charge off cooldown and they're on vent then yes, they can almost instantly do a lot of damage to one (or more) target(s) if <a whole bunch of other things aren't happening> but that is neither a game breaker or any different from a bunch of other dps classes on vent with cooldowns up that can also focus a target(s) very fast. As far as I can see most of the whining is by people that have perception/observation problems (and weak tactics) and/or a prejudice vs melees. The results scoreboards that I routinely see do not support a blanket "smash needs a nerf asap we don't need to back that up it's obvious". If the class was so easy and as truly "obviously" op'd the numbers should be there every time.

correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 3 ways to build stacks and there's 20s in which to use them? now I don't play a smasher, so this is just how it was explained to me in voice. I do understand that they made it incredibly easy to prepare a smash so that a smasher can get off his auto crit smash every time that smash itself is off cd. I don't think that's even disputable, is it? in any case, I understand how you could handle a smasher with teamwork. how are you going to handle 3 of them?

 

btw, I'm also of the opinion that smash in itself is fine. but aside from the animation, I thought it was fine before 1.4. I mean...2 of the best dps on my entire server were focus guardians. I know i say that in every thread but...what - the - hell! it's a noteworthy observation.

[LogicalPremise]

With some simple warzone awareness

 

What are you smoking that you think the average group of pugs has any warzone awareness at all?

 

Pack of smashtards up against well organized, well geared premade using vent = dead smashtards

 

Pack of smashtards up against 1 good player, 2 mediocre players, 2 guys in 47 greens, 1 guy in social gear with no mods , and 2 guys with 160 exp and purty purple-black crit strike crystals who don't even coordinate in chat = dead pugs.

 

Dead pugs scream smash is overratted.

 

Disclaimer; full Immortal Spec Jugg and bubble sorc.

[Savej]

correct me if I'm wrong, but there are 3 ways to build stacks and there's 20s in which to use them? now I don't play a smasher, so this is just how it was explained to me in voice. I do understand that they made it incredibly easy to prepare a smash so that a smasher can get off his auto crit smash every time that smash itself is off cd. I don't think that's even disputable, is it? in any case, I understand how you could handle a smasher with teamwork. how are you going to handle 3 of them?

 

btw, I'm also of the opinion that smash in itself is fine. but aside from the animation, I thought it was fine before 1.4. I mean...2 of the best dps on my entire server were focus guardians. I know i say that in every thread but...what - the - hell! it's a noteworthy observation.

 

To smash, a jugg needs:

enrage (1x every 40 secs) - auto full crit

crush (3x / min) - needs to tick 4 secs, then auto full crit, can be cleansed - resulting in a weaker smash depending on how fast you cleanse

choke (1x / min) - needs to tick 3 secs, can be interrupted or trinketed resulting in a weaker smash depending on how fast you stop it

 

Only one of those things is automatic and doesn't require the jugg to be dancing at melee range 3-4 secs prior to the smash.

 

A sentinel needs the same except he can replace the enrage req with using zen if his centering is at 30 stacks which requires a lot of melee abilities being fired or the use of valorous call which can be done 1x per 2.75 min.

[Washingtoon]

What are you smoking that you think the average group of pugs has any warzone awareness at all?

 

Pack of smashtards up against well organized, well geared premade using vent = dead smashtards

 

Pack of smashtards up against 1 good player, 2 mediocre players, 2 guys in 47 greens, 1 guy in social gear with no mods , and 2 guys with 160 exp and purty purple-black crit strike crystals who don't even coordinate in chat = dead pugs.

 

Dead pugs scream smash is overratted.

 

Disclaimer; full Immortal Spec Jugg and bubble sorc.

Yeah it's a horrible AC in casual/normal warzones. Even if you have the awareness to stay away from it you can be pretty sure that atleast five of your team mates lack it. So let's say that you have 12 mediocre players in the warzone, the team with the easiest to play/most bursty classes will win. Granted that the horrible maras might die ten times but if they can get off a 6K nuke prior to dying they've probably produced more than the 3 mediocre sorcs on the other team.

 

I mean, I've been in games where I, on a sorc have walked away from a 1 vs 3 against bad smahers just to have the same three smashers take a node from 5 of my team mates two minutes later. That is how bad the average player is. They will stack and take 18K hits (3 smashes) every 12 secs and there's not much you can do about it since you cant be everywhere at once. And in the event that you try to hand out advice you'll probably be greeted by a few " *********** try-hard, just play the game and dont care about what the rest of us are doing" and a few reports.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Washingtoon

[Eidalon]

I'm playing focus guardian before it was vigilance but it was no go though i've loved it. I'm reading about smashmonkeys but after playing 10 wz in a row I see more then 2 smashers in about 1 max 2 whereas I tend to see 4 sorc in 6-7 out of 10 and stun, stun, stun this is why I stopped to play with vigilance tree the first place which was much more fun to play. I qeoue solo or with friend that play shadow and in most WZ we are being stun raped all the time to the degree its ridiculous. But my biggest problem is with 4 or more sometimes, maxed out EWH gear peoples on comms, this tops out all the smashers and bubble stunners.

 

Sorry for my English

[Washingtoon]

I'm playing focus guardian before it was vigilance but it was no go though i've loved it. I'm reading about smashmonkeys but after playing 10 wz in a row I see more then 2 smashers in about 1 max 2 whereas I tend to see 4 sorc in 6-7 out of 10 and stun, stun, stun this is why I stopped to play with vigilance tree the first place which was much more fun to play. I qeoue solo or with friend that play shadow and in most WZ we are being stun raped all the time to the degree its ridiculous. But my biggest problem is with 4 or more sometimes, maxed out EWH gear peoples on comms, this tops out all the smashers and bubble stunners.

 

Sorry for my English

I've noticed somewhat of an upswing with sorcs lately, which is odd considering that sorc isnt deemed to be in a great place at the moment. I was in a warzone a couple of days ago with 11 other SI'es. I wouldnt say that the frequency of warriors is low though and I'm having plenty of +8 warrior games too (refering to the sum of both teams). Would have been nice if the matchmaking system could spread out the classes a little instead of sometimes placing +10 of one AC in the same game, Games where four or more healers end up on the same team are also pretty darn horrible.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Washingtoon

[Eidalon]

Yes matchmaking system sucks and WZ where there is 4 healers in one team and in other there is non or one and not good one is just a nightmare. I can put some stress on them but they will heal one another then heal with no problem others and all you hear is unbeatable, unbeatable, invincible, invincible and you see for example novare coast outcome 100 to 0 no matter how good your team was Edited January 25, 2013 by Eidalon

[overkillss]

 

A melee class would not complain about ranged damage without actually trying to close the gap and fight the range and stop him from free casting. The advantage ranged has is that they can place themselves somewhere in range of their healers but out of range of the enemy dps.

 

On our server, a guild always runs with 1 healer and 3 smashers, they can force leap into anything and it's dead (5-7k each smash). With rank they have x2 of what i just listed above. It's taken the fun out of the game!

Edited January 25, 2013 by overkillss

[Savej]

On our server, a guild always runs with 1 healer and 3 smashers, they can force leap into anything and it's dead (5-7k each smash). With rank they have x2 of what i just listed above. It's taken the fun out of the game!

 

"anything and it's dead"? Not sure what game you're playing.

[antiheroxi]

Kinda funny all the screams to nerf it. You all already slaughtered annihilation spec with the last set of nerf bats handed out to marauders, now you want rage as well. Im starting to think its just a general hate of being slapped with glowsticks rather then mechanics. And this feeling is coming from a player that plays entirely as annihlation marauder and vengence juggernaut....

 

Funny thing is 90 percent of the time i get called a LOL smasher and its not even close to a signature large attack for me. i think all juggernauts especially are getting linked to a spec that only so many of us use but since we all have to use smash in our rotations in someway for something we must all be rage.... tbh that huge crit attack you get slammed with multiple times in a fight that knocks out most of your life... yup ravage because you stood still for it waiting to run away from smash....

[Aetideus]

Kinda funny all the screams to nerf it. You all already slaughtered annihilation spec with the last set of nerf bats handed out to marauders, now you want rage as well. Im starting to think its just a general hate of being slapped with glowsticks rather then mechanics. And this feeling is coming from a player that plays entirely as annihlation marauder and vengence juggernaut....

 

Funny thing is 90 percent of the time i get called a LOL smasher and its not even close to a signature large attack for me. i think all juggernauts especially are getting linked to a spec that only so many of us use but since we all have to use smash in our rotations in someway for something we must all be rage.... tbh that huge crit attack you get slammed with multiple times in a fight that knocks out most of your life... yup ravage because you stood still for it waiting to run away from smash....

 

Smash on 3 players * 3 smashers = 6.5k * 3 * 3 = 59.5k dmg in 1'' on EWH gear. Is there anything near this in WZs? Whether it is from mars or juggernauts.

[Never_Hesitate]

this is the truth.. keep an eye out next WZ's you play.. i count 3-4 smash specs in most rounds, its just getting stupid now. it needs a slight nerf.

 

just as slight as the sorc nerf in 1.2?

[Technohic]

Kinda funny all the screams to nerf it. You all already slaughtered annihilation spec with the last set of nerf bats handed out to marauders, now you want rage as well. Im starting to think its just a general hate of being slapped with glowsticks rather then mechanics. And this feeling is coming from a player that plays entirely as annihlation marauder and vengence juggernaut....

 

Funny thing is 90 percent of the time i get called a LOL smasher and its not even close to a signature large attack for me. i think all juggernauts especially are getting linked to a spec that only so many of us use but since we all have to use smash in our rotations in someway for something we must all be rage.... tbh that huge crit attack you get slammed with multiple times in a fight that knocks out most of your life... yup ravage because you stood still for it waiting to run away from smash....

 

I don't think anyone wanted those nerfs they did to annihilation. That was just stupid.

[LogicalPremise]

Funny thing is 90 percent of the time i get called a LOL smasher and its not even close to a signature large attack for me. i think all juggernauts especially are getting linked to a spec that only so many of us use but since we all have to use smash in our rotations in someway for something we must all be rage.... tbh that huge crit attack you get slammed with multiple times in a fight that knocks out most of your life... yup ravage because you stood still for it waiting to run away from smash....

 

This. This times ten thousand.

 

If you call a guy in full tank gear and soresu a smash-tard, you really, really, really don't understand anything at all. Yet again and again, we here the cries of nerf smash blah blah blah.

 

Look, I've been hit by SIX smash-monkeys at once and instantly killed more than once. We tore that team completely apart because they weren't even making an effort at winning , just smashtarding all over the place. If people would make even a half-assed effort to use the simple counters, this wouldn't be so big.

 

- don't group up. Please don't try to tell me that doors, turrets or bunkers require you to huddle in a 3 meter circle, like I inevitably see people doing. I've seen seen full-spec sorcs (and why you are specced like that in pvp is another mystery) screaming at people to group up so they can drop their area heal. ***. Spread out. you can still stop caps that way.

 

- if you have 1 to 2 smash monkeys, mark them. Taunt, stun, and bubble. Kill their supporting healers. Anything but just standing there and letting them rape you.

 

- if you are a cloth wearer and you know they're coming after you spec into something more durable. Protect your healers.

[LarryRow]

- don't group up. Please don't try to tell me that doors, turrets or bunkers require you to huddle in a 3 meter circle

 

5m radius on the attack so 10m circle. A patient Smasher should be able to get 3 opponents on most teams, even the really good ones, that aren't spending 100% of their efforts trying to avoid Smashes.

 

- if you have 1 to 2 smash monkeys, mark them. Taunt, stun, and bubble. Kill their supporting healers. Anything but just standing there and letting them rape you.

 

Once again, please explain how a dps spec requiring special treatment to the point where it's necessary to target mark them and focus all your taunts and control on them is balanced.

[JMCH]

"anything and it's dead"? Not sure what game you're playing.

Add Force crush to the Smash and it's ~3k each with absolutely no counter (Smash has a counter for Sentinel/Marauder and Shadow/Assassin, at least in one spec)

3k + 3.5~6k = 6.5~9k, each.

 

That's instant-death for anyone.

[ArchangelLBC]

To smash, a jugg needs:

enrage (1x every 40 secs) - auto full crit

crush (3x / min) - needs to tick 4 secs, then auto full crit, can be cleansed - resulting in a weaker smash depending on how fast you cleanse

choke (1x / min) - needs to tick 3 secs, can be interrupted or trinketed resulting in a weaker smash depending on how fast you stop it

 

Only one of those things is automatic and doesn't require the jugg to be dancing at melee range 3-4 secs prior to the smash.

 

A sentinel needs the same except he can replace the enrage req with using zen if his centering is at 30 stacks which requires a lot of melee abilities being fired or the use of valorous call which can be done 1x per 2.75 min.

 

Don't discount the sentinel. I've gone entire matches where I didn't even need Stasis or Force Exhaustion because I always had 30 centering before my cooldown on smash was up. If you use Valourous Call at the beginning (and it's at 2.5 minutes when you put two points in valor) this is entirely possible. Zen also gives you a full focus bar in addition to the 4 stacks of singularity, so you leap in smash, spam slash to reduce the cooldown on smash, maybe throw in a masterstrike for giggles. All those slashes are building centering, getting damaged builds centering. You can Zealous strike to get back the focus needed if you aren't quite at 30 yet, but seriously centering builds ridiculously quickly.

 

I'm not saying it's optimal to never use stasis or force exhaustion, but you should be able to get off a fully buffed smash every 10 seconds or less. The biggest mitigating factor is focus (for slash to get the sweep cooldown reduced, as well as zealous leap to use when force leap is on cooldown) or the cooldown for sweep itself. Stacks of singularity are just never an issue.

[Chemic_al]

It's a broken spec, should never have gone live, and sents need a huge nerf anyway.