NoTomorrow Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 P.S. And for snipers comparing Marksmanship with Madness... really? If you want to get into a fight, then i suggest you do it and lay on the table everything you want to say. If you claim that madness is weak against snipers, i will provide you counter arguments. As a Sniper I never said that Madness was OP, but i will say that it is a very decent spec and players should stop trying to make it look like its unplayable. Full lightning yes. It's an abomination. But full Madness remains a decent spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I didn't say sorcs were broken, just over hyped. They were fine in their pre 1.2 state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy_reborn Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I didn't say sorcs were broken, just over hyped. They were fine in their pre 1.2 state this. pre 1.2 the cool thing to do was whine about how overpowered Sorc/Sage and Tracer Missile/Grav Round was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 this. pre 1.2 the cool thing to do was whine about how overpowered Sorc/Sage and Tracer Missile/Grav Round was. Sorc/sage was fine IMO... as far as arsenal/gunner... that needed some fixing since everyone knew what the interrupt button is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamLKvist Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 For a dps sage one build = fine. Pures have no place in this game amiright!!!!!!!11!!111!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abhaxus Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 As a competent sorc I take it as a special point of pride to lead melee on a merry chase. I tend to think of sorcs as de facto tanks in warzones. In hybrid heal spec, even before bubble spec, I can usually get two or more melee chasing me and off of my teammates. On a full voidstar I am often taking 400k or more dmg. I shoot for at least 100k per death. Don't think defense is our problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterone Posted January 24, 2013 Author Share Posted January 24, 2013 So, if i understand correctly according to your words, the leaper jumps on you, you knockback him, then he Force chokes, blade storm, dispatch. while YOU AND YOUR TEAM DOES NOTHING? Do you want us to get down to every GCD and analyze every ramification of every little move that you and him does? And when that happens to you Mr. Sniper, where's your team? Oh yeah, you don't need one. Because you're given all the tools necessary to deal with melee attackers, unlike a sorcerer. I understand you don't want another potent opponent on the field, it will make things more difficult for you, but you really do not understand the class enough to say there's nothing wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTomorrow Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 And when that happens to you Mr. Sniper, where's your team? Oh yeah, you don't need one. Because you're given all the tools necessary to deal with melee attackers, unlike a sorcerer. I understand you don't want another potent opponent on the field, it will make things more difficult for you, but you really do not understand the class enough to say there's nothing wrong with it. Lol dude, i am supposed to limit the permormance of melee players. This is what my entire class was made for. I cannot do fancy stuff on huttball with friendly pulls or force speeding through fire traps with the ball. As for competition, madness sorcs act as a good counter to me, unless they screw up monumentally and try to facetank me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamLKvist Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Lol dude, i am supposed to limit the permormance of melee players. This is what my entire class was made for. I cannot do fancy stuff on huttball with friendly pulls or force speeding through fire traps with the ball. As for competition, madness sorcs act as a good counter to me, unless they screw up monumentally and try to facetank me. We counter one AC in the game. Woopydo (SITUATIONAL LOS +20 SECS TO KILL COUNTER) Not sure if you're serious. Your scenario expects the sniper to sit still and allow to be LoS'ed as well. Jeez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoTomorrow Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 We counter one AC in the game. Woopydo (SITUATIONAL LOS +20 SECS TO KILL COUNTER) Not sure if you're serious. Your scenario expects the sniper to sit still and allow to be LoS'ed as well. Jeez I've been on the both sides, i know how this matchup goes pretty well. Madness should win unless it got trappen in the middle of no LOS without nowhere to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamLKvist Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I've been on the both sides, i know how this matchup goes pretty well. Madness should win unless it got trappen in the middle of no LOS without nowhere to run. There we have it again. "To run" , lol. Funny how people seem to have forgotten to read the length of the dots. A tip, sages cant cleanse the root so just root them and enjoy explosive probe and one channeled ability doing more damage than we can manage in tripple those gcds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy_reborn Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Sorc/sage was fine IMO... as far as arsenal/gunner... that needed some fixing since everyone knew what the interrupt button is. i hope youre just being a funny guy like always. cuz 1.2 was pre-interrupt era for Mercs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 i hope youre just being a funny guy like always. cuz 1.2 was pre-interrupt era for Mercs No I mean interrupts shutting that class down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy_reborn Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 No I mean interrupts shutting that class down... ah. well that has always been the case. i just found this thread, and it is quite lolzy http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=249861 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterone Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 If you want to get into a fight, then i suggest you do it and lay on the table everything you want to say. If you claim that madness is weak against snipers, i will provide you counter arguments. As a Sniper I never said that Madness was OP, but i will say that it is a very decent spec and players should stop trying to make it look like its unplayable. Full lightning yes. It's an abomination. But full Madness remains a decent spec. A fight? Not looking for a fight man, due to one reason -- I am looking for good suggestions or variations on the original idea in the OP. While your responses in this thread seem eloquent, I take them as no more as trolling attempts. But I'll leave it there, since I just realized something... It is really pointless for any of us to go over the class deficiencies a million times over, and for you to always say it's all fine. You claim that Egress should not be allowed on a 2 second Sprint, but are fine with having a 250% longer root on a shorter cooldown, not counting all the other defensive cooldowns you get as a class. You say classes should have two out of three on mobility, burst and range, yet you agree that we have no burst and think we should have no mobility through Egress. What other mobility do we have beside a rootable Sprint? So we have Range... and no mobility and no burst -- doesn't seem to me like there is any benefit to that Range. Let's do this instead... we all know sorcerers are not allowed in ranked on most servers, other than as a healer -- and even then they are not regarded as the best healer. You tell me why you think that is, please. You tell me why you think madness sorcs are not allowed, or any dps sorcs (but since you think madness is fine and lightning needs an overhaul let's focus on madness). I have a feeling if I said it, there would be 5 people jumping in saying no, no it's all good, you just don't know how to play, let's keep things as they are... So let's give others a chance, those who think sorcs are fine; please come here and tell us your versions why dps sorcs are not allowed in ranked... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Spectre Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 So let's give others a chance, those who think sorcs are fine; please come here and tell us your versions why dps sorcs are not allowed in ranked... I do not play ranked and won't. However, I can tell you right off the bat why as a DPS Sorcerer. DPS Sorcerers suck when it comes to being part of a ranked team in supplying DPS. They are a detriment to the team because they have no defensive or survivability capabilities to last when it matters. All that damage we're capable of doing is fluff damage. It doesn't mean squat. Today in NC I topped the chart with 443k DPS with a whopping 10 kills with 3 killing blows. While having all the damage was great, there the net results were insignificant. In other words, my damage did nothing other than cause people to lose hit points. That's the reason why DPS Sorcerers are scorned by the player base. They are useless in that environment, plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwkingms Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I guess every marauder plays smash huh? And my point of that post is that you were 2 button scrubs and were still bad back then, it was just FOTM and you thought you were gods like most of the smash monkies today who couldn't cut it with a real spec. so yes or no do u think sorcs are fine right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V-Serp Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 You do know kiting does not equal running away right? And of you're going to do what? Shock, keep your slow up, IDK maybe lightning when you get to a safe range so you can get procs, use your hard cc's, use knock backs, force speed away, heal if you can? And no, a good melee doesn't run after a stupid person trying to kite, you run away LOS and range them. Haha this exactly, especially in an objective based game. If I'm a Mara guarding and I see a Sorc, what is he going to do exactly? I'll just stick around behind the turret and force him to get in my range. Either he comes to me and I kill him, or he stays far away from me staring at me while I get defensive medals. The opposite is true when I'm going for an objective. Either that Sorc is going to stick around the objective, where I will slaughter him, or he's going to run away from the objective, so I'll just take it. Even in a game like huttball, if you get knocked off a ledge for instance and don't have leap up, or even if you do, unless you need to get there for positioning purposes, it doesn't really make sense to bother attacking that Sorc. Just LOS him, or get out of his range, and go after someone else while he stands there like a moron. People only look at LOS from the ranged perspective. People don't seem to understand that if a Sorc/Sage is LOSing you, that means they can't attack you either. They are not DPSing you when they LOS themselves. The melee wins that matchup, not the ranged, ranged WANTS you to stand there far away from them where you can't hit them but they can hit you, it is absolutely no benefit to them when neither of you can hit each other, that is in fact a net benefit for the melee, because he has now nullified the opposing position of strength. If people really like the Sorc/Sage DPS playstyle they should just play the middle tree of PT. It isn't the optimal PVP build, but it will give you a similar experience, except better, unless you really like to be rooted in one spot while casting a channel ability. But even if you do that, PT has one of those for you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 so yes or no do u think sorcs are fine right now Heals sure. Madness is a dot tree so it lacks huge burst although with a death field and shock you can drop damage into someone while those dots are ticking. So Yeah sure it's fine or would you rather BW give you a fear you can spam and damage someone till they're dead? Lightning... seems too stationary. I really don't know here... The only thing sorc needs is an auto attack... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerevFalar Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 They have to fix bubble spec first though. Once that is done I would love a cooldown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralParmesan Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Ill sum up the problems Full madness -Poorly designed force regeneration mechanic that requires you cast an entire force lightning just to regain force -Low damage dots over long duration with no dispel protection mechanics -Low burst with deathfeild as the only hard hitting move, shock costing too much force to be used often for its low damage -Overly reliant on force lightning because it is needed for procs, the filler and force regeneration leaving no good casting options when interrupted and leaving much to be desired in spike damage -Survivability completely relies on maintaining mobility; almost worthless knock-back -Limited utility Hybrid -Lackluster burst compared to other more popular classes (although better than madness in both AOE and single taget burst) -Overly reliant on force lightning for damage and procs - Decent utility but far from needed -Low but manageable survivability concerns Full lightning -Very cast reliant for all damage and procs -Difficult getting off casts -Lackluster damage in proportion to cast times and setup -Limited mobility and survivability -Almost no utility -Interrupting harms the effectiveness of your dps more than the other specs Sorcs and Mercs have a very similar problem that is not faced by other dps classes. When focusing a melee there is nothing to stop them from dealing damage assuming they stay alive. Casting based classes without cover however cannot get off casts while being focused since every class in the game has an interrupt off global cool-down. As-side from defensive problems this creates the problem with the sorcerer and mercenary classes being so focused in Warzones. You can shutdown a sorc or a merc dps with proper CC/Interupt usage but you can't shutdown a melee dps in the same way. You could say kiting is the way these classes can fix this "survivability" problem but with the large amounts of roots (predominately held by melee) in a group scenario it leaves a situation where you can not escape and thus you can not cast. Fun pvp is about having options on both sides of the table, not just being able to shutdown all of your opponent's options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanchito Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Lol dude, i am supposed to limit the permormance of melee players. .... Doesn't that kinda counter your argument why dps sorcs shoudn't get egress? I mean as a heal sage i fully understand how egress kills your damage, but then again your supposed to kill maras anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masarko Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Funny how the healer classes DPS specs are bad. (Not taking shared tree to account) Edited January 25, 2013 by Masarko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PloGreen Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) I do not play ranked and won't. However, I can tell you right off the bat why as a DPS Sorcerer. DPS Sorcerers suck when it comes to being part of a ranked team in supplying DPS. They are a detriment to the team because they have no defensive or survivability capabilities to last when it matters. All that damage we're capable of doing is fluff damage. It doesn't mean squat. Today in NC I topped the chart with 443k DPS with a whopping 10 kills with 3 killing blows. While having all the damage was great, there the net results were insignificant. In other words, my damage did nothing other than cause people to lose hit points. That's the reason why DPS Sorcerers are scorned by the player base. They are useless in that environment, plain and simple. You are doing something very wrong then. Edited January 25, 2013 by PloGreen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantomjchx Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 All that damage we're capable of doing is fluff damage. It doesn't mean squat. Today in NC I topped the chart with 443k DPS with a whopping 10 kills with 3 killing blows. QUOTE] You are doing something very wrong then. If u think that guy is doing something wrong then that mean ur thinking very wrong then, why? This guys has twice intelligence of yours. He knows class much better. He playas much better, and hell i bet hes much more skilled then u! Why? Because I see the post ,,intelligence,, You are very limited intelligent human being ( I call those : the best example of human race ) Ghost spectre is very very intelligent person from what I can see AND YES IM SERIOUS. And now I m gona tell u the two facts my mate, it might be painful so U RDY BRO? 1. If u trolling I got trolled hard ( but in most situations people like u are serious with those posts ) 2. If u were serious well ITS WORTH IT FOR ME .... Why? U tried to annoy me once but ur gona stay with that IQ whole ur life, so hell yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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