Defensive Cooldown for Sorcerer/Sage

[-IceHawk-]

There are certain things you cannot combine together within one spec.

Ranged, mobile, burst = you can only pick any 2.

 

I think there is a misunderstanding here.

 

Sorcs are not asking for mobility, it is our primary defense mechanism.

 

We are mobile out of necessity, which is one of the two main reasons you do not see Lightning Sorcs running in Warzones.

 

Affliction, Shock, Death Field, and Creeping Terror are instant (ergo mobile) damagers.

 

Lightning Strike, Force Lightning, Force Storm, Crushing Darkness, Chain Lightning, and Thundering Blast are stationary cast or channeled abilities.

 

In PVP our primary source of DPS is Force Lightning, a stationary channeled ability.

In point of fact our main rotation requires us to channel FL until a Wrath Proc off of which we can then become a mobile platform hitting with Death Field and Crushing Darkness...before returning out of necessity to a stationary channel.

 

In theory the Static Barrier talents, including Backlash, serve as our defensive mechanic to allow us to remain stationary and deal damage.

 

The problem of course is that a bubble is easily popped in a single cool down by nearly every class other than a DPS-Sorc

 

Either Sorc-DPS needs to be brought in line with our survivability or our survivability needs to be brought in line with our DPS.

 

Bioware understands they broke this AC with 1.2; the currently censured Backlash ability was a poorly designed hotfix to return this class to some modicum of utility.

 

Obviously, it has failed horribly. More than that it has created a backlash against the AC which may result in a further Nerf depending on what they do to fix it.

 

At what point will people recognize that we are demonstrating the broken status of this AC when all of our viable builds require hybridization and even Bioware is not sure of what to do with this class?

 

Here is a thought: Add a 4-second 90% Accuracy De-Buff to Mind Trick!

 

Suddenly Sorcs would have a defense against their primary predator, the melee-DPS, and would have 4-seconds (in theory) to do damage.

[MusicRider]

Sorcs already got a free healing ability given last patch. How much more do you need?

 

Yes that's great cause it is a counter to dispatch, takedown and other finishing moves. But it is very quick to get in that 30% range.

[MusicRider]

5k death fields. plus we have more attacks that do over 2.5k instant damage than most other classes

 

No and no. I have 79.9 surge and I never hit any wh geared class player for over 5k.

[MusicRider]

1. Yes it's too much to ask. It should stay high up in lightning.

2. You don't just knockback and stay, you move in the opposite direction.

3. It should stay a lightning tree exclusive. You can get it with Madness at the expense of sacrificing creeping terror. You trade on root for another root. Working as intended.

4. No. Roots are supposed to counter DPS sorcerers, especially madness. Giving egress to everyone, will make sorcerer mobility way too good, and currently sorcerers don't need extra mobility. They already god the force speed CD lowered. Legshot should remain a powerful counter against DPS Sorcerers.

5. If you as a sorcerer plan to melee a PT, you are doing it wrong. No thrash damage buff will save you.

 

Oh and why would you a single sorcerer would want to counter coordinated attacks on you? I don't see why you should be able to counter 1vsMultiple enemies scenario. This is what your team mates are for, tanks for taunting and guarding, healers for healing, other sorcs for extricating you, as well as everyone for CCing your enemies.

 

I understand your suggestions are fueled by frustration, but lets keep it within some reasonable balance.

 

No frustration at all. So lets get to the meat.

 

1. I know but no harm asking.

2. Force choke, blade storm, dispatch.

3. You are not exchanging a root for a root but sacrificing your dot dps also.

4. Stun and force speed from first leader just to be rooted by a second leaper. The fact that you are mentioning leg shot makes me wonder.

5. Kiting at 15m a powertech and still get blasted. Didn't know 15m are melee.

 

Since you are mentioning balance can you please mention the number of dps sages/sorcs you know that do ranked in our server. Cause I can count them in one hand. Name also please the number of powertechs, warriors and snipers. Last remark, there is a thread somewhere of someone who has played both a sorc and a sniper. Snipers beat hands down sorcs in all departments with the exception of force speed.

 

I could mention and probably miss something, none can leap, cc immunity, dodge shield, damage reduction shield, instant 360 longer knock back with root to all, single root by defaul ie legshot, aoe instant mezz flashbang, is your stun on 60 secs cd?, xs for preventing a node/door capped with higher damage over resource management. But hey we there is force speed which has no immunity. Come on now.

[MusicRider]

There are certain things you cannot combine together within one spec.

Ranged, mobile, burst = you can only pick any 2.

 

And there are certain things that you cannot combine also:

 

Super range, burst, restricting the mobility of everyone, no need to stop firing ever. Choose 2.

[MusicRider]

I actually agree with most of these responses. I think sages do need some love in the dps department but it must be done very carefully as to not make them OP. The only thing that I disagree with is the survival talent (bubble stun) being so high up in the tele tree. It should be moved lower in the balance tree, made a mezz and self caster only, we dont have enough defensive cooldowns to deal with coodinated attacks on ourselves, and we are a priority target regardless of spec because of this. Simply put madness/balance is weak survival wise, and the trade off is too much because the dot and damage is not as good as it could be/used to be.

 

I understand guard/peel heals are important to this class and it works better in a group setting but I do not think its in a great place - simply put we do not have much in the way of mitigation from burst classes if we go madness/balance and this is why people dont see them much in rateds.

 

If they spec bubble as dps they are giving up alot of effective damage - might look good on the scoreboards in hybrid but this is because its taking you longer to kill stuff.

 

Madness/balance should be the spec that sages use in a ranked environment if they want to do good pressure dot and dps but its too weak with all the bursty fotm classes around. Force resources are not too bad if you dont rely on project much and no when to duck in out of a fight, pop a medpack, self-heal etc. Still compared to other classes its far to reliant on kiting and you spend alot of time on the move and using los.

 

Yes I do play it in ranked 7/3/31 - but then on my server (red eclipse) we have an agreement to limit bubble stunning and stacking smash, so this makes it more viable for me.

 

TL:DR - not an easy class to play in balance spec, probably not in an ideal place but not as terrible as some people say imo. If buffs are applied to this class they should be applied very carefully. Dont want anything ridiculous.

 

Plus one on this. Sages are not in a terrible position at all. i think commandos have the honours. But I wouldn't say there are in the top 4 or 5 of dps advanced classes. Hopefully everyone wants balanced classes. but if there would be an imbalance again I wonder what would it be if the tables were rotated for a patch?

[wwkingms]

And there are certain things that you cannot combine also:

 

Super range, burst, restricting the mobility of everyone, no need to stop firing ever. Choose 2.

 

one could argue that mara's between force charge predation, force camo have great range too

 

i mean *** is the poitn of being a range class when it seems there are people in your face constantly, im sorry but being ranged means nothing, stealths easily close, juggs and mara's easily close and pts can pull and have a passively applied snare, and only need to get into medium range

 

 

our range cannot be looked at as a perk

 

and mobility means nothing with the constant roots in this game i barely get any sprint off that i am no ruber banded back due to lag or charged again which roots me..

 

range means nothing, our mobility is an illusion, and while mobile our mediocre dps drops significantly, we have no burst and the worst survivability

 

 

tot he dude saying hes running 7/3/31 in rateds ur either lying or a severe strain on your healer because with ttk times so high in high rated wz's ur most likely out of force well before any node has been won and are either standing their trying to leave combat or sacrificing all your health, that buiild has no force management

[wwkingms]

And there are certain things that you cannot combine also:

 

Super range, burst, restricting the mobility of everyone, no need to stop firing ever. Choose 2.

 

super range? u mean the same range that we can be charged or grappled? wrong

 

restricting everyones mobilitys? you mean the melee smashing our face in the direct and immediate cone in front of us? yea so OP

 

no need to stop firing ever? last time i check the most OP classes in the game mara's and juggs have the easiest resource manament int he game as well as the best burst, amazing survivability and great defensive cooldowns

 

 

you non sorcs can argue all u want im sure you liek us right where we are, im sure you think that the reason u beat sorcs is becuase your SOOO TALENTED

[Kaithrei]

Just give lightning/tele's the ability to cast bolt/disturbnce while on the move.

 

While I know this isn't a def, it would make the classes have a little better mobility.

[MusicRider]

 

 

tot he dude saying hes running 7/3/31 in rateds ur either lying or a severe strain on your healer because with ttk times so high in high rated wz's ur most likely out of force well before any node has been won and are either standing their trying to leave combat or sacrificing all your health, that buiild has no force management

 

He does and he does insane damage. I run 3/7/31 in ranked.

[MusicRider]

super range? u mean the same range that we can be charged or grappled? wrong

 

restricting everyones mobilitys? you mean the melee smashing our face in the direct and immediate cone in front of us? yea so OP

 

no need to stop firing ever? last time i check the most OP classes in the game mara's and juggs have the easiest resource manament int he game as well as the best burst, amazing survivability and great defensive cooldowns

 

 

you non sorcs can argue all u want im sure you liek us right where we are, im sure you think that the reason u beat sorcs is becuase your SOOO TALENTED

That post was a comparison to snipers. You are missing posts.

[Xerain]

super range? u mean the same range that we can be charged or grappled? wrong

 

restricting everyones mobilitys? you mean the melee smashing our face in the direct and immediate cone in front of us? yea so OP

 

no need to stop firing ever? last time i check the most OP classes in the game mara's and juggs have the easiest resource manament int he game as well as the best burst, amazing survivability and great defensive cooldowns

 

 

you non sorcs can argue all u want im sure you liek us right where we are, im sure you think that the reason u beat sorcs is becuase your SOOO TALENTED

 

LOL what at that highlight.

[AdmiralParmesan]

Yeah I know enough sorcs to know that damage is not really the issue. I know sorcs can use something but mine is at such a low level my experience is limited and really cannot comment on to what that would be.

 

Its not the overall damage thats the issue its the lack of single target damage in pressure situations. Any sorc can hit good numbers on the warzone charts but its the fact that the damage is so spread out its irrelevant to the warzone win. This, coupled with the fact that sorcerers have difficulty producing damage while under pressure which is a factor not shared by melee dps classes or the sniper AC.

Edited January 24, 2013 by AdmiralParmesan

[wwkingms]

He does and he does insane damage. I run 3/7/31 in ranked.

 

insane dmg?

 

of course u do with the hour long battle for nodes that rateds have

 

your nothing special pal and 31 madness is not that strong, hyrbid is a far better for group pvp

 

regardless whether ligthning, hyrbid or madness there is no powerful sorc build atm, choose a build, be clever as possible and skill these fotms bads as best u can

[wwkingms]

LOL what at that highlight.

 

i have a 50 jugg, i know before the buff the RAGE tree was actually quite rage starved, the changes to the tree not only made it so you never need to worry about rage management but you can pop enraged defense and still never run out

 

so lol at yourself

Edited January 24, 2013 by wwkingms

[wwkingms]

Just give lightning/tele's the ability to cast bolt/disturbnce while on the move.

 

While I know this isn't a def, it would make the classes have a little better mobility.

 

i was thinking changing backlash to something like instead of a stun, after the bubble ON SORC HIMSELF is consumed by damage, the sorc gets a buff reducing and reflecting 33% of the dmg taken for the next 5 seconds

 

this can help with the immense burst we take

[NoTomorrow]

Fine. The difference is roots and ccs keep us from staying at ranged, our only knockback root breaks on damage and our damage comes from pre-existing dots(poor design flaw), DPS sorcs mobility in any competitive game without fadeout is a joke, and don't get me started on burst.

 

You need to have roots and CCs as a counter. If a sorcerer could indefinetely keep distance from melee he would never die to them. Same as against snipers, if a mandess sorcerer would never be rooted, he would never loose to snipers simply because how easy he will be able to get out of line of sight.

 

I understand that getting rooted is frustrating, but this is your counter, it needs to stay in the game. Just as my sniper vulnerability to stealthers needs to stay. There are things that you cannot just get rid of just because it's frustrating.

 

Most of the people asking for buffs, are so damn frustrated by their experience, that they outright don't care if these buffs will shift their class into an overpowered state, why? because they think that they suffered so much that they deserve to be overpowered. I really don't like this atittude.

 

Sages can have burst. If there is mind proc then a combo of FiB/project/mind crush can do 11k in 2 gods if stars align and you still have the dot. With proper interrupts you can bring even a good healer in pressure. You can't finish him off most of the times there though. A finishing move would be nice given that to achieve this burst combo many percentages are involved.

 

It was discussed before. Healer classes will never be given an universal execution ability. Healers stats wise are not gimped compared to DPS, so they will be able to deal tremendous amounts of damage while still healing. Imagine a healer sorc with 5000 Takedowns.

I would agree with such a finisher move somewhere high enough in lightning tree. But not universal for every sorc spec.

 

No frustration at all. So lets get to the meat.

 

1. I know but no harm asking.

2. Force choke, blade storm, dispatch.

3. You are not exchanging a root for a root but sacrificing your dot dps also.

4. Stun and force speed from first leader just to be rooted by a second leaper. The fact that you are mentioning leg shot makes me wonder.

5. Kiting at 15m a powertech and still get blasted. Didn't know 15m are melee.

 

Since you are mentioning balance can you please mention the number of dps sages/sorcs you know that do ranked in our server. Cause I can count them in one hand. Name also please the number of powertechs, warriors and snipers. Last remark, there is a thread somewhere of someone who has played both a sorc and a sniper. Snipers beat hands down sorcs in all departments with the exception of force speed.

 

I could mention and probably miss something, none can leap, cc immunity, dodge shield, damage reduction shield, instant 360 longer knock back with root to all, single root by defaul ie legshot, aoe instant mezz flashbang, is your stun on 60 secs cd?, xs for preventing a node/door capped with higher damage over resource management. But hey we there is force speed which has no immunity. Come on now.

 

Look, just listing sniper abilities will not make your sorcerer look more different that it actually is. Different classes are different. Your knockback has a damage component which can damage stealthers. It's a great thing, my sniper cannot do that. Also Cover pulse is 30s CD compared to 15s CD of overload.

 

2. You are oversimplifying this matchup. If this always happened, there would me a massive crapstorm on the forums, not what we have right now.

3. I know, which i don't like to do, I prefer to have creeping terror and i can live with knockback without roots.

4. Yes yes I know this thing so well as it has been done to me countless of times before when i am playing my sorc. Problem is, it's a 2vs1 situation. You have to give credit to the enemy when he outnumbers you. From all my sniping experience only a few times i killed 2 players at full HP. Any 1vs2 got me most often killed.

5. Powertech needs to be within 10m range for most of his abiilties. I know these dudes are extremely dangerous for you, but this is how the game was intended to be.

 

Sorry, but there are more sorcerers doing RWZ than Snipers on Red Eclipse currently. Yeah, may be Snipers are more than DPS Sorcerers, but we don't heal. DPS is all that we can do.

 

And there are certain things that you cannot combine also:

 

Super range, burst, restricting the mobility of everyone, no need to stop firing ever. Choose 2.

 

Sorry, you've invented this yourself just to counter my statement.

We are both ranged classes, and in some cases you have abiilties that attack at 35m as well.

Restricting the mobility of everyone? Yes we have a few of these abilities, but hey, we are Ranged DPS, and if something gets out of line of sight, they will live to fight another day. We cannot hunt down somebody like warrior, assassins and PT can. You however, can beat a sniper with madness by using line of sight obstructions, and roots are only thing that you fear. Seems balanced to me.

 

No need to stop firing? what do you mean?

 

one could argue that mara's between force charge predation, force camo have great range too

 

i mean *** is the poitn of being a range class when it seems there are people in your face constantly, im sorry but being ranged means nothing, stealths easily close, juggs and mara's easily close and pts can pull and have a passively applied snare, and only need to get into medium range

 

our range cannot be looked at as a perk

 

and mobility means nothing with the constant roots in this game i barely get any sprint off that i am no ruber banded back due to lag or charged again which roots me..

 

range means nothing, our mobility is an illusion, and while mobile our mediocre dps drops significantly, we have no burst and the worst survivability

 

It all depends how you interpret the meaning of a ranged class. If for you ranged = your enemies always being 30m away from you, than of course this will not work. By range i understand that if the distance between you and your subjects increases behind 10m, you are not left without any attacks.

 

My problem with many sorcerers on this forum is: that they are frustrated by a specific match-up, in this cases melee players, yet they come with suggestions that will affect many other match-ups. I get it you don't like being leap rooted and you want some immunity against that, but don't ruin sniper-sorcers match-up just because you don't like being rooted by melee.

Edited January 24, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[DeepFreese]

You need to have roots and CCs as a counter. If a sorcerer could indefinetely keep distance from melee he would never die to them. Same as against snipers, if a mandess sorcerer would never be rooted, he would never loose to snipers simply because how easy he will be able to get out of line of sight.

 

I understand that getting rooted is frustrating, but this is your counter, it needs to stay in the game. Just as my sniper vulnerability to stealthers needs to stay. There are things that you cannot just get rid of just because it's frustrating.

 

Most of the people asking for buffs, are so damn frustrated by their experience, that they outright don't care if these buffs will shift their class into an overpowered state, why? because they think that they suffered so much that they deserve to be overpowered. I really don't like this atittude.

 

I disagree, I don't even think there is a need for too much of a buff. I do not want more mobility, and I don't want more survivability. I want to make them pay for the incredibly short amount of time a sorc would be in the fight in any competitive game. Sorcs cant be a sustained dps class with no survivability and very limited mobility in ranked.

[NoTomorrow]

I disagree, I don't even think there is a need for too much of a buff. I do not want more mobility, and I don't want more survivability. I want to make them pay for the incredibly short amount of time a sorc would be in the fight in any competitive game. Sorcs cant be a sustained dps class with no survivability and very limited mobility in ranked.

 

I understand. Your problem is, full Lightning tree needs a complete overhaul as it is cannon fodder to melee and of course snipers. It has a horrible proc system with lots of stuff easy to interrupt. I mean the entire chain lightning, was never even intended to be hard casted given what a long activation time it has.

 

Give full lightning ability to perform as well as Marksmanship, let the stun bubbles remain for lightning.

 

I would rather not touch anything in Madness right now except for may be some energy regen talents (i would gladly trade DoT heals for DoTs giving force.

[glocklB]

H Marine. I'm trying to balance the fact that when attacked by 2-3 people you 1 gcd before spawn if caught off-guard, in other words give a fraction more of time for the tank and the healer to switch attention when needed.

 

Not exactly right, but i understand your concern. However, in my opinion, sorcs would be definitely OP if they would have survival buff like one in the first message. I mean, yeah, buffs are cool, but i don't want my class to be known as OP.

[JackNader]

All they had to do with the lightning tree is allow lightning strike to be cast while moving. That's it! The fundamental problem with the tree is that you are forced into being a turret, just like a sniper. Only you don't have blanket casting immunity like snipers, leap immunity or anywhere near their level of defensive cooldowns.

[glocklB]

insane dmg?

 

of course u do with the hour long battle for nodes that rateds have

 

your nothing special pal and 31 madness is not that strong, hyrbid is a far better for group pvp

 

regardless whether ligthning, hyrbid or madness there is no powerful sorc build atm, choose a build, be clever as possible and skill these fotms bads as best u can

 

colored is arguable anyway. Madness and hybrid just have a bit different play styles, and i personally like madness more

[NoTomorrow]

All they had to do with the lightning tree is allow lightning strike to be cast while moving. That's it! The fundamental problem with the tree is that you are forced into being a turret, just like a sniper. Only you don't have blanket casting immunity like snipers, leap immunity or anywhere near their level of defensive cooldowns.

 

Have a look at Marksmanship, Snipe an important proc attack has instant attacks every 6s, its not a permanent instant attack. If you make lightning always instant, it will be even greater than Madness, because you could DPS on the move and chain lightning on the move. It needs to have some conditions when it can be instant.

[glocklB]

You need to have roots and CCs as a counter. If a sorcerer could indefinetely keep distance from melee he would never die to them. Same as against snipers, if a mandess sorcerer would never be rooted, he would never loose to snipers simply because how easy he will be able to get out of line of sight.

 

I understand that getting rooted is frustrating, but this is your counter, it needs to stay in the game. Just as my sniper vulnerability to stealthers needs to stay. There are things that you cannot just get rid of just because it's frustrating.

 

Most of the people asking for buffs, are so damn frustrated by their experience, that they outright don't care if these buffs will shift their class into an overpowered state, why? because they think that they suffered so much that they deserve to be overpowered. I really don't like this atittude.

 

 

 

It was discussed before. Healer classes will never be given an universal execution ability. Healers stats wise are not gimped compared to DPS, so they will be able to deal tremendous amounts of damage while still healing. Imagine a healer sorc with 5000 Takedowns.

I would agree with such a finisher move somewhere high enough in lightning tree. But not universal for every sorc spec.

 

 

 

Look, just listing sniper abilities will not make your sorcerer look more different that it actually is. Different classes are different. Your knockback has a damage component which can damage stealthers. It's a great thing, my sniper cannot do that. Also Cover pulse is 30s CD compared to 15s CD of overload.

 

2. You are oversimplifying this matchup. If this always happened, there would me a massive crapstorm on the forums, not what we have right now.

3. I know, which i don't like to do, I prefer to have creeping terror and i can live with knockback without roots.

4. Yes yes I know this thing so well as it has been done to me countless of times before when i am playing my sorc. Problem is, it's a 2vs1 situation. You have to give credit to the enemy when he outnumbers you. From all my sniping experience only a few times i killed 2 players at full HP. Any 1vs2 got me most often killed.

5. Powertech needs to be within 10m range for most of his abiilties. I know these dudes are extremely dangerous for you, but this is how the game was intended to be.

 

Sorry, but there are more sorcerers doing RWZ than Snipers on Red Eclipse currently. Yeah, may be Snipers are more than DPS Sorcerers, but we don't heal. DPS is all that we can do.

 

 

 

Sorry, you've invented this yourself just to counter my statement.

We are both ranged classes, and in some cases you have abiilties that attack at 35m as well.

Restricting the mobility of everyone? Yes we have a few of these abilities, but hey, we are Ranged DPS, and if something gets out of line of sight, they will live to fight another day. We cannot hunt down somebody like warrior, assassins and PT can. You however, can beat a sniper with madness by using line of sight obstructions, and roots are only thing that you fear. Seems balanced to me.

 

No need to stop firing? what do you mean?

 

 

 

It all depends how you interpret the meaning of a ranged class. If for you ranged = your enemies always being 30m away from you, than of course this will not work. By range i understand that if the distance between you and your subjects increases behind 10m, you are not left without any attacks.

 

My problem with many sorcerers on this forum is: that they are frustrated by a specific match-up, in this cases melee players, yet they come with suggestions that will affect many other match-ups. I get it you don't like being leap rooted and you want some immunity against that, but don't ruin sniper-sorcers match-up just because you don't like being rooted by melee.

 

+1 on nearly everything!

[AdmiralParmesan]

There is a much larger problem with sorcs being unable to create damage under pressure do to the large amount of interrupts. Something survivability wise should be done at least for the dps sorcs as the class can be tunnel visioned with such effectiveness that in a group setting even a healer can't keep the sorc up. The class is basically hunted every warzone and the lack of reliable single target burst further hampers the classes capabilities.

 

A healer can keep up a good getting focused powertech and the powertech will still put out good damage. A healer barely keep up a good sorc getting hard focused and the sorc will produce no damage while being focused. The main defensive cooldown of the sorcerer class is force speed which is easily countered by any CC or root, yet other defensive cooldowns are not so easily countered. If roots and interrupts weren't so prevalent the survivability and damage of the sorcerer class would be a lot better.

 

Fun pvp is based around the concept of actions and reactions. If you are on a sniper and you see your target use saber ward to mitigate your damage, then you use target acquired to get past the deflection. The sad part is the sorcerer class has limited ways to fight back, there are few limited reactions to other classes abilities. Your only survivability choice is to run/los but you can't produce decent damage while kiting because you need to cast to get the procs needed for real damage and yet not kiting results in instant death.

 

Also why is the sorceror/sage classes the only classes that's melee abilities don't benefit from main stat?