Dear BioWare, your coding is terribad.

[Socialist]

This game is certainly cloggy as a rusty clock.

 

 

I know bollocks about computer and stuff, but when I can edit films and render CGI quite fine but have a cloggy experience in WZs, something seems to be wrong.

 

Just an impression, an uneducated one.

[Socialist]

And to those who say:

 

If you don't like it, do better.

 

 

For certain, if everybody abode to such fallacy, I wonder what would be of knowledge production. We would have to stray away from the partitioned form of production we have today (as in, biologists, economists, etc doing their own stuff) to overlords of all sort knowledge.

 

Ah, the wikipedia generation...

Edited January 22, 2013 by Socialist

[Eszi]

If the white space does not get translated into the compiled code (meaning the white space isn't in the compiled code), then how does it make the file bigger? I mean, it isn't IN the compiled code...

 

The shader file gets uploaded into the gpu as it is, WITH the white space, then the gpu is compiling the parts that aren't compiled, but it's still holding the 32MB file.

[Socialist]

The shader file gets uploaded into the gpu as it is, WITH the white space, then the gpu is compiling the parts that aren't compiled, but it's still holding the 32MB file.

 

If this is indeed truth (I wouldn't know) is there a reason for such insane sloppiness from the coders?

[Choffware]

If this is indeed truth (I wouldn't know) is there a reason for such insane sloppiness from the coders?

 

Well like I said there people who don't have intimate knowledge of the tech they are using can't really confirm this is a real problem or a problem they can easily fix. For instance: (total guess) This could be a file that's distributed with the engine and they don't have the original source to clean it up. or they might not have the license that allows them to touch that part of the engine. OR any hosts of reasons... but it does sound like it could be contributing to some of the performance issues.

[DarthOvertone]

Armchair development, part and parcel of MMOs since the beginning. Nothing new here.

 

LOL

 

Armchair Developers...They're The Best!

[Slurmez]

Its almost sad the rabid responses the "fanboys" come up with to "support" the coding, its pure junk, a total fudge and does nothing well.

 

The game itself is ok, its got huge potential but the coding is out and out obsolete garbage, I dont know of any other game, past or present that requires the exes to be running for functionality. Its just a fudge around for hyperthreading and poor memory utilization which should be totally unneeded.

[Alandross]

Where to start.

 

First, that I've been a game technology (and tools for game tech) software engineer for over 7 years now.

 

Second, I wouldn't trust the statement of a supposed "coder" who used the word "terribad" in any sort of serious manner.

 

Third, the OP doesn't have the code for the game so can't actually make an accurate statement about the game's code. Sure it could be horribly inefficient, the point is that unless you can actually see the game's source code (which you can't from the installed game) then you really just don't know what the problem is.

 

Fourth, even what the OP is talking about needs the context of the source code... for all we know the game engine might process that file and strip out whitespace and what not... Again without the source code you simply can't make an honest statement like.

 

Fifth, don't feed the troll... "these are not the droids you are looking for"... "move along"

[Asavrede]

/signed for the terribad part.

 

I LOL'ed at this though

 

Right, now it's obvious why the file is so large:

There's a TON of empty space between a lot of lines of code, removing just that would reduce the file's size significently.

 

o.O

[Beslley]

You don't even need to be that great at coding to scoff at

 

1) How poorly the game runs, even on high end machines

2) LOL ALPHA HERO ENGINE

3) Their inability to fix ANYTHING in their game in a timely manner

4) When they do fix something, they manage to break something else

 

How on earth do you let bugs like the one that enabled you to not consume consumables (If you used a stim/medpack/any consumable while channeling your health regen ability, you got the buff/health/consumable effect without consuming the item), or the /getdown bug go to live? I feel like the QA is a whole other can of worms, so I won't go into detail there, but dayum.

Remember that time they couldn't do ilum favor rollbacks? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

 

I mean I love this game, but holy ****, their developers are incompetent at best, and malicious at worst, and the biodrone apologists defending their sub-par work are hilarious. I'm in web dev, and I can guarantee that if I let a product as buggy as SWTOR go live, I'd be out of a job.

 

Don't get me wrong, I get it, programming is a funny thing. Sometimes stuff works and you don't know why. Sometimes you break things and you have no idea what you did. But, you know, generally you try and fix those things in a timely manner, and the devs are anything but timely. A year in, and this game STILL feels like a beta, and the fact that they want to push out content as fast as possible instead of fixing existing problems isn't helping.

 

So honestly, crap like this won't get fixed. We'll be lucky if they retextured an old model and call it new and sell it on the cartel store. Rejoice until the next mildly entertaining MMO comes out and watch SWTOR's pop tank again.

 

That's my prediction too, sadly. Breaks my heart because I love this game, but god is it hard to keep playing when the game is so broken in so many ways.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Beslley

[MoltenRog]

No, this isn't another "omg bad fps fix pl0x" thread, although bad performance/stuttering is what got my attention.

Before you say "omg it's ur pc, im maxing this game on a calculator and never drop below 100000 trillion fps", try going to an area with 40+ people on screen and hit ctr+shift+f.

 

Running a gtx 580 myself, on the fleet the average fps is about 20, no matter what settings or resolution i use, it doesn't affect the fps at ALL.

Funny thing is, according to the in-game fps meter, it's my gpu that should be to blame, yet when i check the gpu usage, it averages at 30%.

30%, assuming I'm running the game at max. If i lower the settings, for example set everything to very low, fps is the same, it still shows that my gpu is limiting the fps, yet the usage on the gpu drops even lower (0%-5%).

 

Seeing as CS is "awesome" as always, and provided me with a bunch of "helpful" instructions, such as disabling nameplates, which obviously didn't change anything, I decided to investigate.

 

So first thing, checking shaders file.

IT'S A MESS.

First noticable thing - size - 32MB. It's HUGE. Shader file is what gets uploaded directly into your gpu, not video ram, but the gpu itself. There's no way a 32MB file would fit, and it doesn't.

Alright, opening the file, since it's just a .bin and anything will work, really.

Right, now it's obvious why the file is so large:

There's a TON of empty space between a lot of lines of code, removing just that would reduce the file's size significently. Other than the empty space being all over the place, there's also this:

Microsoft (R) HLSL Shader Compiler 9.23.949.2378

Fine, I get it. You used a version of the compiler that's outdated by like 3 years. Cool:rak_03:

How about you don't mention it all over the file, you know, to save space, especially that this info sometimes repeats itself every 2 lines

 

Another thing worth mentioning is that the file appears to be partially uncompiled

Advantages: when you change something in it, you don't have to compile it again

Disadvantages: Performance loss, since you're compiling on the fly

Seeing as we can't really change the file, guess what would be the right choice

 

Before you ask why won't I just make the changes myself - offsets are hardcoded

 

Gonna try to disassemble this, source code for this...thing, it should be fun

 

Next BioWare coding tutorial will include:

Running the render as a seperate proces - why is it a bad idea due to massive overhead it creates and the fact that communication between processes is horrible.

 

No offence but if my HD 3 Series graphics card with a 512mb of ram can run this game on Low-medium and my HD 6870 2GB can run this game on high settings whilst only using 30% of the ram usage and about 40% of the GPU usage with no problems and a constant fps of 59.98-60.00.

 

I don't see how your brand new graphics card can work, considering this 2GB HD 6870 is nearly 2 years old now.

 

First thing you might want to do is turn of shadows, it doesn't matter how overpowered your graphics card is Shadows will ruin your game, turn them off problems disappear. If you refuse to turn them off don't complain.

[Dimvou]

You don't even need to be that great at coding to scoff at

 

1) How poorly the game runs, even on high end machines

2) LOL ALPHA HERO ENGINE

3) Their inability to fix ANYTHING in their game in a timely manner

4) When they do fix something, they manage to break something else

 

.

 

Totally Agree.

I don't possess the necessary knowledge to pinpoint where the problem is,but it's pretty obvious that the game could use a lot of optimization/fixes.

 

For those of you that think devepolers/coders working on games are doing everything better than someone who plays the game and has coding knowledge,a reminder that it was a user made file that boosted Skyrim performance almost by 50% and "forcing" Bethesda to include that fix in the next major patch(1.5 if i am not mistaken).

 

Imo EA/Bioware is either focusing on the expansion and wants to include the bug fixes there or not working on the bugs at all due to lack of resources(i can't really believe that bugs like misfiring are being ignored for so many months).

[Eurynamous]

This is lulz.

 

This game plays fine for a lot of people who move around, jump, skip and look at their shadows on max settings. I was one of these people, I am no longer. There is an issue somewhere, but what we have going on here is a witch hunt. Somebody wants to burn something at the stake and it's just like all clients calling into tech support, it's the companies fault and all my **** is perfect.

 

We all know how to test against other programs that are more intensive so we can benchmark and compare logged data. But much like the idiot who chews gum with his mouth open, we can't be bothered to do anything about except get angry and think about ways to punch said human in the face.

 

Now, I never had a problem until the release of TFB. That's the honest truth, not a single issue. TFB hits us and now I get a CTD every couple of days, which is temporarily resolved with a repair. On the fleet, I had max viewable and shadows maxed, it was fine but now it's a bit stuttery.

 

So yes, there is an issue. Usually these issues are code related, since everything is code in the software universe. Posting in the general section of this forum will only get a pile of individuals who are uneducated in game design and coding spouting their foolish assumptions backed with weak proof that the average joe can believe as solid evidence. If you have experience in this industry, and are posting what you see wrong, then you would know what the industry standard is for criticizing peers, there is a format that is used in the documentation.

 

If you want them to look at what you're saying and see what you're pointing out. Write that document and post it in CS. Otherwise this is just an exercise in fingerpointing with people backing it because they have similar problems but have no idea how to identify the actual source of it.

[Rafaman]

LOL

 

Armchair Developers...They're The Best!

 

Lol! Gamers talking about code.... it's laughable.

[cashogy]

good post, more evidence of bioware's shoddy work. would be nice if they actually showed a little bit of pride in the product they turned out

[AshlaBoga]

I have little coding knowledge.

I do have however play other mmos in addition to SWTOR.

 

Guess what?

Compared to WoW, TSW and GW2 this is by far the buggiest.

 

Now we can say that we don't know exactly why the game is so buggy, but there's no denying it's competitors are less buggy. I'm not saying this is a bad mmo (if it was I wouldn't pay $15/month for it), but my biggest complaint by far are the bugs. I would (and I think thousands of others as well) enjoy this game so much more if they focused more on fixing the bugs.

 

I defend many aspects of the game (Phantom gear change, removing the Korealis series) but I'm never going to defend there being substantially more bugs in SWTOR than it's competition. That's just silly.

[SNCommand]

I have little coding knowledge.

I do have however play other mmos in addition to SWTOR.

 

Guess what?

Compared to WoW, TSW and GW2 this is by far the buggiest.

 

Funny, I haven't played WoW, but I am playing TSW and GW2, and compared to TOR I find them less stable and have a larger number of bugs, hell TSW is the only one of the three which I have experienced and still experience game breaking bugs

Edited January 22, 2013 by SNCommand

[bravotwentysev]

Lol! Gamers talking about code.... it's laughable.

 

This comment made my day because its so true.

[redsovereign]

To add to this I believe that both the OP and the "defenders" as some of you call them, are correct with their arguments. We all know that Bioware was rushed to deliver the game, the game that should have been released with 1.2 and several performance optimizations.

 

I don't claim that I know a lot of programming or "could do a better job", I've been playing this game since early access and still enjoy it A LOT but I don't think we have to brush the fact under the carpet; the fact that Bioware was rushed and thus had to cheat a little with their development.

 

We've all seen the "non-falling-down-npcs-after-death" that happens extremely often and have been in the game since early access.

Or what about the "you are knocked-down but cancel the getup animation wich makes your character constantly attack and hit the ground over and over until you let the getup animation play out". Or how about the old classic; You are hitting Blade Storm but just as your avatar lifts his/her hand in the air ready to smack the bad guy the ability itself so you have to recast it.

 

I'd call myself a "defender of the game" but there are just so many issues with the games and its issues thats been here since the release that still are not fixed.

The issues are both performance issues and animation issues. I also like the one when you skip a cutscene just as the screen turns black and the game stays in black screen mode for a looooooong time until the game finally catches up.

 

The OP has some valid points and the "defender" has some valid points; all in all a lot in the game is still broken and still needs to be fixed.

[redsovereign]

Funny, I haven't played WoW, but I am playing TSW and GW2, and compared to TOR I find them less stable and have a larger number of bugs, hell TSW is the only one of the three which I have experienced and still experience game breaking bugs

 

Yep but TSW is also really garbage

 

No offence but that game....

 

terrible

Edited January 22, 2013 by redsovereign

[AshlaBoga]

Funny, I haven't played WoW, but I am playing TSW and GW2, and compared to TOR I find them less stable and have a larger number of bugs, hell TSW is the only one of the three which I have experienced and still experience game breaking bugs

 

TSW seems relatively bug free for me, I haven't dc'd once in 200 hours of playtime. What bugs have you been experiencing?

[jgoldsack]

I have little coding knowledge.

I do have however play other mmos in addition to SWTOR.

 

Guess what?

Compared to WoW, TSW and GW2 this is by far the buggiest.

 

Now we can say that we don't know exactly why the game is so buggy, but there's no denying it's competitors are less buggy. I'm not saying this is a bad mmo (if it was I wouldn't pay $15/month for it), but my biggest complaint by far are the bugs. I would (and I think thousands of others as well) enjoy this game so much more if they focused more on fixing the bugs.

 

I defend many aspects of the game (Phantom gear change, removing the Korealis series) but I'm never going to defend there being substantially more bugs in SWTOR than it's competition. That's just silly.

 

I for one am in no way defending shoddy code, and the overall bugginess of this game. I just find it humorous when people come here and post how they would fix things and how bad things are in code that they have no idea what it actually looks like.

 

A little knowledge is dangerous...

[SNCommand]

TSW seems relatively bug free for me, I haven't dc'd once in 200 hours of playtime. What bugs have you been experiencing?

 

Quests not finishing, bosses not dieing, those bugs got fixed though, the last game breaking one I experienced was a few weeks ago when Eblis activated the second phase of the boss fight and decided to not show up, kept doing it as well, next time we did the fight it didn't happen but still, experience small bugs quite often still though, but nothing game breaking

[Roalmo]

May I asked the OP have you ever programed a MMO game or a console game? Not sounding mean but I think stating what you did in the past that supports this.

 

 

Before you ask if I have yes 15 titles and working on 3 more.

 

Love this dodge.

 

So how many of those titles were published with the Hero engine old chap?

 

And the ones you are working on? How many plan on using the Hero engine in the title's final form?

[Drudenfusz]

I always assumed that SWTOR must have a bad coding, because of all the issues and that BioWare seems to always break stuff when they change anything.