Why the Vocal Minority Won PvP

[Brasherr]

Over my time in beta and now over launch, I think it's fair to say many people are disappointed in PvP. Huttball is the only one that pops because apparently no one rolls Republic. Targeting is difficult not to mention the new amounts of lag that now permeates throughout warzones. There are no brackets, so last night as a 38 I found myself fighting lvl 10s. PvP, which Bioware promised would be a viable end game, is looking more and more like space combat than anything associated with endgame.

 

So how did this happen? Well it's really, the dedicated, crazy fan base full of Roleplayers despised anything practical with PvP. They hated the idea of cross-server BGs, because that would ruin the sense of "community". They despise the idea of arena because then in some arbitrary situations there are nerfs to classes, so they can't role-play in Cantina's as well. They talk about world PvP as if it's the only type of PvP, and anyone who has ever played a serious MMO knows world PvP zones are empty, gank zones, no strategy, no fun, but hey, you're fighting for a cool Tower we can role-play in right?

 

The list could frankly go on and on, but many people, myself included, who have ever only really played MMOs for competitive fun PvP, are left disappointed, and wanting. My statement to BioWare, do what's best for business, not whats best for the vocal minority of forum children.

[DrJackWolfe]

Except, of course, in a game like this with a well known IP hardcore Pvpers are expected to be the minority. Edited December 20, 2011 by DrJackWolfe

[hocuspocus]

So just to clarify no one has made a republic character yet, hmm

[Sangomah]

PvP doesnt reall kick off until you have most of the players at level 50. The game officially launched today and as so it will be a month or two before you get pure 50 warzones. If they didnt do the bracketsharing they do now there wouldnt be pvp at all Im afraid

[Wuschel]

Thank you for your valuable insight based upon a solid amount of weeks into the game at level 50.

[CHRISGG]

ROFL, I like how you equate wonky targetting, poor combat fluidity etc with "roleplayers" wanting a community (because only roleplayers care about a server community?) and try to imply that arena is the only option for PvP in MMORPGs.

 

You and your ilk are holding the industry back, one that is a big reason that there is no innovation in this genre anymore. You want the same garbage fed to you over and over, and when you get it you still don't like it.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Meluna
rude

[Modecrypt]

They talk about world PvP as if it's the only type of PvP, and anyone who has ever played a serious MMO knows world PvP zones are empty, gank zones, no strategy, no fun, but hey, you're fighting for a cool Tower we can role-play in right?

 

I'm guessing that you didn't play DAOC or Warhammer. DAOC is the perfect model for RvR/OPVP. Warhammer was close but suffered from server performance issues and keep design flaws. Both games offered a populated open PVP experience where ganking was less common than 8-mans or larger units operating over a vast area, usually in close coordination with allies.

 

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Modecrypt

[Mirrandor]

They talk about world PvP as if it's the only type of PvP, and anyone who has ever played a serious MMO knows world PvP zones are empty, gank zones, no strategy, no fun, but hey, you're fighting for a cool Tower we can role-play in right?

 

I might be mistaken here, but as a 'real' pvper, we have been wanting world pvp not instanced garbage.

 

E-peen rating systems are the minority. I will be participating in them, and my crew will be a dominating force, but we are first and foremost looking for galactic domination.

 

Your petty scapegoating isn't necessary. I don't RP, nor do I want to.

 

I want massive battles.

I want planetary conquest.

 

I don't want to be stuck in another game where I sit in a city and wait for a queue to pop so I can fight.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Mirrandor

[Hayemaker]

I'll reserve judgement on whether this game is going to deliver the PVP that would be needed to keep me interested beyond a couple of months. It looks to me like you need a core of maxed players to make it viable.

 

I will say I'm disappointed that it takes to level 10 before you can get into a warzone. And even then, you only have 3 fairly average ones to participate in.

 

No sign at all of open RVR for me yet. I'd have liked to level from rank 1 using pvp all the way. Trashing mobs and moving from point a to point b, clicking right mouse button here, then running from point b back to point a holds very little interest for me.

 

Like I say, reserving judgement. But my gut tells me this probably isn't going to be the game the pvp crowd want.

[cheddar]

I read the title thinking I would come in here to flame/troll you but instead this is the best post I've read in ages! I agree with you on literally every point.

[SWImara]

I'm guessing that you didn't play DAOC or Warhammer. DAOC is the perfect model for RvR/OPVP. Warhammer was close but suffered from server performance issues and keep design flaws. Both games offered a populated open PVP experience where ganking was less common than 8-mans or larger units operating over a vast area, usually in close coordination with allies.

 

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Agreed.

 

The move away from open world PvP is what pushed me to finally give up on PvP servers. Essentially the only reason for PvP servers these days is to gank since all meaningful PvP (as defined via developer assigned rewards) is in battlegrounds (sorry warzones) and the like. Warzones, Arena and whatever other type of instanced PvP did more ultimately to harm PvP than to help it imo.

 

I usually do my best not to make asinine responses along the lines of "go back to WoW" but seriously if that's your only PvP experience and you enjoyed it then why leave? World PvP has been successful in other MMOs, it was successful in WoW until they moved all PvPing to instances. There are plenty of examples of enjoyable PvP focused games that didn't center around Arena/Battleground/Esports style of play.

 

At first I thought OP might have been trolling, roleplayers are the ones who pushed the current state of PvP... seriously? Esports style PvP may be fun for some, but its not everyone's cup of tea, what are you basing the vocal minority claim on? People love throwing around that term to represent any group that doesn't agree with them, do you have some data to show that most people want arenas?

 

I don't disagree with all the OP has to say, I think brackets for instance (10-29, 30-49, 50) would be a good thing for instance, but I also sort of expect/hope PvP to progress quite a bit in the next few months. Of course I've sadly expected the same before in tons of other games that started out with watered down crappy PvP. Notably one of those is now OPs apparently MMO PvP holy grail, the system was garbage at start and none of this current sutff existed.

 

Rather than go with what WoW has currently been degraded to, its my hope that BW comes up with their own trajectory for PvP and makes it a solid part of the game. If nothing else they have some solid staff on hand to do so.

Edited December 20, 2011 by SWImara

[McDaniels]

I agree with what you said except for the fact that roleplayers are causing the problem. I think its more related to PvErs who have had bad experiences in WoW where all they cared about is raiding, yet patches kept coming in changes their classes due to arena imbalance... They're closed-minded and assume that the only way to balance arenas is through sweeping class changes, and therefore are closed to the idea of an arena.

 

As for open world PvPers, I don't even know. I cant understand them. I respect that they like open world PvP, but to me its just a huge zergfest that lags my computer to a slideshow, nobody has a clue who to target or whats going on, and everyone is just confusedly smashing on their keyboard hoping to do some good, it requires no strategy and very little coordination and is generally skilless bs where the team with greater numbers wins.

[Meetstick]

... anyone who has ever played a serious MMO knows world PvP zones are empty, gank zones, no strategy, no fun, but hey, you're fighting for a cool Tower we can role-play in right?

 

Translation:

 

"... as anyone who, like me, started their PvP career in season 5 arena WoW playing a DK or pally can tell you, world PvP never works for any MMO in any situation ever ever ever 'til the end of time I know 'cuz I've been there from the start and seen it all."

[Modecrypt]

As for open world PvPers, I don't even know. I cant understand them. I respect that they like open world PvP, but to me its just a huge zergfest that lags my computer to a slideshow, nobody has a clue who to target or whats going on, and everyone is just confusedly smashing on their keyboard hoping to do some good, it requires no strategy and very little coordination and is generally skilless bs where the team with greater numbers wins.

 

You're just not doing it correctly then. You don't have to mash zerg on zerg, splitting forces and pushing your enemy to do the same. Use CC to zerg bust, take objects, and try to maneuver forces around for attacks from the back/sides.

 

Guild premades or alliances of guilds running premades should be able to coordinate and destroy chaotic zergs.

[Revelationjp]

Any MMO is what people make of it. Back in my SWG days I was part of a two-part guild (those from opposing faction were in that factions guild, but "unofficially' part of the larger guild.) We stayed on full time guild war with each other, creating our 'own' open world pvp. The great thing about an MMO is that we're not living in a vacuum, and don't have to rely on the devs to change everything. If you don't like things, get with your friends, be in contact with other guilds, and set things up the way you want!

 

edit to add: But trying to force other people into your way of playing is just not a good outlet for your frustrations.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Revelationjp

[Bakarn]

This is probably the most wrong post I have ever seen. The aura of superiority emanating from it just makes it funnier.

 

Yet I didn't notice even an air of a critique about it from you.

 

Maybe you should explain your position. I also played WoW for 6-7 years and I think SWTOR's about the only MMO that's ever even come close to how fluid WoW is.

[zagarok]

. They talk about world PvP as if it's the only type of PvP, and anyone who has ever played a serious MMO knows world PvP zones are empty, gank zones, no strategy, no fun, but hey, you're fighting for a cool Tower we can role-play in right?

 

.

 

you have clearly only played WoW. if you think open world pvp requires no strategy, go back to WoW and stick to your arena.

Edited December 20, 2011 by zagarok

[Valeryuss]

I might be mistaken here, but as a 'real' pvper, we have been wanting world pvp not instanced garbage.

 

E-peen rating systems are the minority. I will be participating in them, and my crew will be a dominating force, but we are first and foremost looking for galactic domination.

 

Your petty scapegoating isn't necessary. I don't RP, nor do I want to.

 

I want massive battles.

I want planetary conquest.

 

I don't want to be stuck in another game where I sit in a city and wait for a queue to pop so I can fight.

 

^ This is what PVP is all about. Idiotic arenas were the worst thing that happened to PvP.

[Skraylok]

This is probably the most wrong post I have ever seen. The aura of superiority emanating from it just makes it funnier.

 

Please. if you want to push 7 buttons that have perfectly timed cooldowns in rotation, go back to WoW. Having a staggered cooldown system makes a person think and plan. It also opens the fight to unpredictable scenarios.

 

In WoW, if you miss a part of your rotation, your fight is lost... you are completely ****ed. Here, if you miss, you have an opportunity to recover. Take your thoughtless trolling elsewhere.

[Drabyl]

I'm guessing that you didn't play DAOC or Warhammer. DAOC is the perfect model for RvR/OPVP. Warhammer was close but suffered from server performance issues and keep design flaws. Both games offered a populated open PVP experience where ganking was less common than 8-mans or larger units operating over a vast area, usually in close coordination with allies.

 

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

 

God I miss DAOC. I miss RVR.

[Noacryt]

Its not hard to target. Click yourself and press tab and find the target you want. Rp isnt bad at all it's sorta fun and if not just ignore it. Plus in the middle of the civil war bg is a slaughterhouse. I agree huttball needs to be worked on or changed but other than that pvp is good, and you shouldnt complain unless you are level 50.

 

Plus some popular MMO's didnt even have bgs in the day of release. Such as WoW

[BDutch]

At least this post is good for demonstrating the oil/water nature of arena/anti-arena people.

[CHRISGG]

Please. if you want to push 7 buttons that have perfectly timed cooldowns in rotation, go back to WoW. Having a staggered cooldown system makes a person think and plan. It also opens the fight to unpredictable scenarios.

 

In WoW, if you miss a part of your rotation, your fight is lost... you are completely ****ed. Here, if you miss, you have an opportunity to recover. Take your thoughtless trolling elsewhere.

 

Not only is this post flat out untrue, but you also don't even know what people mean by fluidity and responsiveness. It's certainly not a "staggered cooldown system" whatever the hell that means.

Edited December 20, 2011 by CHRISGG

[DrJohnnyFever]

I'd prefer that this game was more like Shadowbane with laser rifles. Open world FFA PvP with real consequences. Is that guy right there bothering you? Blast him. It doesn't matter if he's in front of his trainer or his mother. It doesn't matter if he's Republic or Empire. But you better be ready for the inevitable fire fight. People that band together stop from killing each other not because artifical game mechanics won't let them, but because they believe in a common cause and are willing to group together long enough to achieve it. Low level characters join guilds for protection from gankers and for safe havens to pursue the class quests.

 

...and make the big open world fights have consequences. Let guilds create outposts for their faction on strategic hotpoints. Dynamically alter the game world based on player and guild actions.

 

Shadowbane had the right idea but poor technological implementation. Terrible lag, AFK macro levelling, and bugs that were abused by the player base when they were discovered to give an edge.

 

But the core idea of protectionist guilds that exist for REAL reasons, to protect their own and to spread their power across the game world with real and visible effects...that kind of game play isn't for everyone, but it certainly deserves at least a single server with a true open world, FFA PvP ruleset.

 

Give guilds the ability to plant trainers in strongholds that they can organically grow, giving guilds a reason to protect them, so they can train their members.

 

I know I'm just pining away and nostalgic for a game long gone, but everytime I come to a game and see coded game rules enforcing 'Realm vs. Realm' or instanced PvP it just makes me cringe. At the very least, a separate ruleset for 'FFA PvP' servers would make for a great experiment...

 

DJF

[Corwingeorge]

agree