smash/force sweep spec is faceroll in pvp

[BraaxusKun]

Buff operatives.

 

Yes, I just said that.

[RayGonJinn]

Simple..now that there is no delay on the animation, it's far more effective and easier to stack 3+ jugs.

With the immobilize from force leap, multiple juggs can leap one target after blowing their instant 4xsingularity generator and put out 12k~ easily and instantly. And that's just from 3...

 

The only counter to juggs is to spread out. But bad players don't spread out.

So you put one or two competent healers with a bubble sorc shielding every jugg...now you have an unstoppable force that ccs you even when you manage to break the bubble.

 

It's not that its OP but everyone has jumped on the bandwagon and people would rather complain then adapt to adversity.

 

I started playing this game in feb 2012, hit 50 and started pvp'n (as a Tank) March 2012, Switched to Focus Spec in April 2012 and Focus spec was my dps spec because at the time Vigilance was to go to spec for Guardians/Juggernauts. Then the spec got a little tweak in 1.5 and now every Guardian/Juggy on my server Focus. It forced me to learn Vigilance. I'm glad it did because I still get the job done. I never thought I'd be able to break 400k-500k In a WZ with Vigilance like everyone does in Focus spec but It's still very possible to be Devastating in Vigilace. I know of 2 players who make Vigilance work.

[RayGonJinn]

If you got a Sweep problem... get a Bubble Stunner Sage/Sorc or so you can buy yourselves 3 seconds to recover half the health you just lost lol

[klham]

Re. operatives: Agreed. The two weakest ACs in the game for PvP are Operative/Scoundrel and Commando/Merc. Every other AC has at least one tree that is head and shoulders above anything an Op or Merc can do in PvP. All the saber-wielding ACs (except maybe Sage/Sorc) are "overpowered" (it's relative, of course), and pyro/assault spec Pwrtech/Vanguard has been so op for so long I just think of them as part of the map like fire pits.

 

I always hated Ops, especially when playing my commando. I hated the scissor-jack sound as I was knocked on my face, stun-locked, and burned down without getting a shot in. The only thing that comes close to that level of rage-inducement is the powertech's laugh as he melts your face off. But then I rolled an Op to check out the great storyline and voice acting (BW did a *great* job with the class story) and realized how dependent the Op is on the stealth opener and stuns to get any meaningful damage out. The assassin is far less dependent on stealth openers (and its position-dependent attacks are much more forgiving - no wonder operatives have to jig back & forth like a glitched toon once they open up behind their target). I understand why they toned down the opening burst (to assuage the mostly saber-wielding player base) but something should have been done to boost the sustained damage (aside from the 5% buff to snipe, which most Ops in melee don't use often).

Edited December 20, 2012 by klham

[bglodt]

I don't get it... That is the operatives role/niche. Stealth opener, 1v1 domination. That's it. They need nothing else. That's what they do. Nothing more. VG/PT alone vs OP/scoundrel, equally geared, relatively close skill level, loses every time. That doesn't make Op/scoundrel OP, it's their job. Now letting them have that then increasing their sustained damage, that's OP. People complain about VG assault tree being OP... But really? Yes good burst damage, and good sustained damage... Easily beaten by ops from stealth. No escape mechanic, and average to low average survivability... As far as the spam feat of abilities it burns ammo quick and you end up powerless and out of ammo if your not careful. They also have lower utility in that spec. Taunt and harpoon. No gap closers, no mobility buffs, no team shields, no guards, no ability to heal or self heal (save the one on a 3min cooldown for a pittance HoT).

 

Mercs/commandos need love. Not ops. And they do have a viable tree... The heal spec, probably the best pvp healers in the game.. Mercs/commandos not so much. Ops have a role. They fill it. Their role is to punish anyone who ventures off or guards alone. That's it. 1v1 stealth destruction. Done. You complain about VG/PT but if there is a hard counter to the class it's deception assassins and stealth burst ops! If you don't like that play style either heal or reroll. Arguing otherwise would be like a jugg/guardian saying "yea... I can't do any damage when people are far away...I need a buff to my ranged abilities, because I need to be viable at distance too..." Or a healer complaint about needing to do damage more on par with dps classes. Ops are a stealth,burst, 30 seconds of destruction, sprint dps class. Your not supposed to be that AND sustained damage dealers. If you wanted tgat you should have gone gunslinger/sniper... With burst and sustained abilities.

[bglodt]

And I apologize if the above post sounded a little mean, that was not my intent. i feel you should always play the class you like the most... But that class' role is already set. Perhaps a better tooltip explains that when you pick you AC is warranted. And I concede that ops/scoundrels are really pigeon holed into one or two playstyles, probably more so than most other ACs, but that's the class. And the do fill that one role exceptionally well. Their role is at the periphery in the shadows. Get in get out. Pick a new target, get in get out.

 

When I see ops/ scoundrels in the middle of a scrum I think Oh this guy is gonna get it... Probably because he's punished me a couple of times already for being Alone and away from support... Then he may or may not complain about how OP I am because I killed him. Nvm the times he destroyed me from stealth and still had 50% health when I died. And that's not me complaining... That's just me saying he filled his role.

[SharpG]

Yes it is. Their burst is great from opening. They are incredible at killing most classes 1v1, and their downtime between these destruction plays is not that great. Sure they are squishy, but they compensate for it by having great control and damage from stealth. If you give them any more damage you'll go back to the initial role out where they were completely unstoppable. If you think their damage is low, you either haven't fought one that is decently geared and knows their class, and is an average or better player. Or your fighting them with a class that has 3 defensive cooldowns (more survivability than any tank class), and has an escape... All of which are free.

 

Ops/scoundrels are very a good pvp AC, they are the class that is most close to balanced in the game. Vanguard... Put sticky back on same cooldown as plastique, and they are pretty balanced given their relative squishiness. Actually Sentinels/maras need their def cooldowns brought in line and smash damage needs to be looked at, and mercs/commandos need some love... The rest of the classes I think are within 1 standard deviation of "balanced".

 

I'm sorry but your argument that scoundrels/operatives are balanced is ridiculous, first of all you don't even have one, second of all, the only reason they were perceived as overpowered before all the nerfs was because of the adrenal stacking which made their burst painful. You're characters are a vanguard and sentinel, you have absolutely no room to call something balanced. (And yes I have rolled a vanguard and sentinel as well like any decent PvP player to see the best way to counter something, the vanguard is ridiculously easy to play and has equal if not greater burst then a scrapper's opener)

 

I've been playing a scrapper since early access, they need some desperate help in the PvE department as well as PvP. Sure there initial burst isn't something to mocked but after that they don't even compare.

 

And I apologize if the above post sounded a little mean, that was not my intent. i feel you should always play the class you like the most... But that class' role is already set. Perhaps a better tooltip explains that when you pick you AC is warranted. And I concede that ops/scoundrels are really pigeon holed into one or two playstyles, probably more so than most other ACs, but that's the class. And the do fill that one role exceptionally well. Their role is at the periphery in the shadows. Get in get out. Pick a new target, get in get out.

 

When I see ops/ scoundrels in the middle of a scrum I think Oh this guy is gonna get it... Probably because he's punished me a couple of times already for being Alone and away from support... Then he may or may not complain about how OP I am because I killed him. Nvm the times he destroyed me from stealth and still had 50% health when I died. And that's not me complaining... That's just me saying he filled his role.

 

As for this ridiculous argument, please tell me what a DPS scoundrel can do that a shadow can't do better? An infiltration shadow's burst DPS is just as good but doesn't rely on stealth nearly as much.

 

I've played a large amount of specs at 50 so that I know what to do against certain classes in certain situations. Scoundrels/operatives are no better at solo capping a node then a shadow/assassin is.

Edited December 20, 2012 by SharpG

[AdmiralOnasi]

I'm sorry but your argument that scoundrels/operatives are balanced is ridiculous, first of all you don't even have one, second of all, the only reason they were perceived as overpowered before all the nerfs was because of the adrenal stacking which made their burst painful. You're characters are a vanguard and sentinel, you have absolutely no room to call something balanced. (And yes I have a vanguard and sentinel as well, the vanguard is ridiculously easy to play and has equal if not greater burst then a scrapper's opener)

 

I've been playing a scrapper since early access, they need some desperate help in the PvE department as well as PvP. Sure there initial burst isn't something to mocked but after that they don't even compare.

 

And let's not forget that people were racking up those massive criticals against level 10s before they segregated the warzones. Scoundels and Operatives need a total overhaul in the DPS department for both trees for PvE and PvP, with reverting changes to Back Blast CD and energy cost as a start. Being able to proc UHs from bleeds like we can from heals would be a godsend too and would make DF less of a clunky mess.

[Eurynamous]

OP: Do you think that there is perhaps a soft cap on expertise, where you start to get depreciating values similar to crit and surge ratings? If so, itemization may be the issue and players may have figured out that at some point, you need to tune for pure damage output from core stats over the bonus from a capped out stat?

[Raansu]

If rage was completely faceroll, then why do I consistently out perform every other rage spec on our server, with the exception of about 5 players? I'm not debating that it is overpowered, but it is no less difficult to play than other specs. If you really want to get into it, pyrotech is much easier and puts out similar numbers, and does not even use aoe. The difference is, every ability they use hits hard, just not as hard as smash. And the thing is, smash has always guy this hard, you just didn't notice it as much because every marauder was carnage. And in truth, when you take mass bubble stuns out of the equation, carnage still is the most dangerous spec. I can take someone from full to zero in about three seconds in carnage. Honestly, I can't wait for the rage and bubble nerf. The good marauders will go back to carnage and you will cry even harder.

 

The good marauders never left carnage because they know its better than the one trick pony burst. "Oh look, a 5k crit, I am now useless till I can sweep again."

[Eurynamous]

OP: Do you think that there is perhaps a soft cap on expertise, where you start to get depreciating values similar to crit and surge ratings? If so, itemization may be the issue and players may have figured out that at some point, you need to tune for pure damage output from core stats over the bonus from a capped out stat?

[Royox]

Your game has a balance problem when lots of War Zone teams are like this:

 

http://i48.tinypic.com/35n7if6.jpg

[klham]

But not every scoundrel/operative and commando/merc *wants* to go heals. Yes, commandos absolutely need love. Re operative burst, it's probably not where it needs to be if you can only get that mara/sent down to 2/3 hp before he starts hitting back, and you've only got 3 GCDs worth left of hard hitting energy-consuming attacks before you've got to either pop Cloaking Screen or kite while spamming Rifle Shot. It's still a fun AC the PvP with, but Assassins just do it much better.

[Domatron]

The good marauders never left carnage because they know its better than the one trick pony burst. "Oh look, a 5k crit, I am now useless till I can sweep again."

 

With bubble stun how it is now they actually all did.

[RTCBrad]

Kill smash spec. And kill it with fire. I have over 1k expertise and can still be crit for over 7k from 1 smash that is beyond ridiculous. Smash damage needs to be halved. 3.5-4k at MAX, that's it. No-one else can put out that kind of damage from a single skill that is extremely spammable. It's just totally ridiculous. This is the best biggest ****up I ever seen in an MMO.

 

While you're at it buff sages.

 

Oh and perhaps give your PVP devs some WoW subs and tell them to go play there for a few weeks to check out how to effectively balance classes. Admitted WoW doesn't do it perfectly but my god they do it 100x better than you.

 

Slowly but surely you are actually making every single class inferior to JK/SW and in some cases by a huge margin.

Edited December 20, 2012 by RTCBrad

[orenjee]

Kill smash spec. And kill it with fire. I have over 1k expertise and can still be crit for over 7k from 1 smash that is beyond ridiculous. Smash damage needs to be halved. 3.5-4k at MAX, that's it. No-one else can put out that kind of damage from a single skill that is extremely spammable. It's just totally ridiculous. This is the best biggest ****up I ever seen in an MMO.

 

While you're at it buff sages.

 

Oh and perhaps give your PVP devs some WoW subs and tell them to go play there for a few weeks to check out how to effectively balance classes. Admitted WoW doesn't do it perfectly but my god they do it 100x better than you.

 

Slowly but surely you are actually making every single class inferior to JK/SW and in some cases by a huge margin.

 

Wow okay.

 

I agreed with everything till you hit the WoW bit. Have you played Wow recently? At least in swtor you can q in lowbies and hold your own as any class. There's no one-shot rogues or unkillable disc priests. Or hunters at can kill you with pet alone.

 

Swtor might have 7 k smash right now but no one has ever been one-shot in the this game. Or if they have it was a one time thing. And Wow end game balancing is a nightmare. 300 k crits. No. Just no. Swtor has nothing to learn from WoW.

 

What sucks about any MMO is people don't play the class they like, they learn to like whichever class most see as OP. Most PVPers don't care about which class they have to play if it means high dmg which is why everyone is lolsmashing. The problem is if any class is overplayed it leads to the same irritation. Smash's cooldown is far too low for the kinda damage it does but I think the reason nothing has been done is they are trying to avoid the next zergfest that'll happen after smash is riled in. They are trying to balance the game not quiet qqs.

[Racter]

With bubble stun how it is now they actually all did.

 

This x65000. I've had games where I literally can't attack a single target as combat without immediately getting stunned and burned down. We can't do **** as combat/carnage with bubble stun, let alone the fact that there are typically at least as many bubble blind sorcs as there are smashers.

 

Believe me when I say that most of us hate smash. We hate getting smashed, we hate using smash, it's boring and squishy and feels cheap. But considering any healer or healer ac with a clue dispels everything from watchmen/annhilation before we can do any serious damage, and combat/carnage is terrible due to bubble blind, we really have no choice but to smash. Guardians/Juggs are in an even worse place because vengeance has all the issues of both Sent/Mara trees combined plus **** burst.

 

Not to mention in pretty much every match I've played lately pyro pt's are still right next to us in damage. You notice us because we hit all of you for 4-7k at a time, even though are damage is terrible in between smashes. PTs have been doing this to you individually for a long, long time.

[RTCBrad]

This x65000. I've had games where I literally can't attack a single target as combat without immediately getting stunned and burned down. We can't do **** as combat/carnage with bubble stun, let alone the fact that there are typically at least as many bubble blind sorcs as there are smashers.

 

Believe me when I say that most of us hate smash. We hate getting smashed, we hate using smash, it's boring and squishy and feels cheap. But considering any healer or healer ac with a clue dispels everything from watchmen/annhilation before we can do any serious damage, and combat/carnage is terrible due to bubble blind, we really have no choice but to smash. Guardians/Juggs are in an even worse place because vengeance has all the issues of both Sent/Mara trees combined plus **** burst.

 

Not to mention in pretty much every match I've played lately pyro pt's are still right next to us in damage. You notice us because we hit all of you for 4-7k at a time, even though are damage is terrible in between smashes. PTs have been doing this to you individually for a long, long time.

 

Sorry but sages have been nerfed to the ground since launch the only thing we are good for is bubble blind other than that we can be out healed and out dpsed by everyone.

 

Nerfing the bubble would be unmitigated disaster and totally kill the class. Unless they restored some of our older talents to how they were I.e. 1.5 sec deliverance etc. Or buffed us in some other way. Sages if anything desperately need some pretty extreme buffing to put us inline with the likes of JK/SW, PT etc.

Edited December 21, 2012 by RTCBrad

[xContex]

Kill smash spec. And kill it with fire. I have over 1k expertise and can still be crit for over 7k from 1 smash that is beyond ridiculous. Smash damage needs to be halved. 3.5-4k at MAX, that's it. No-one else can put out that kind of damage from a single skill that is extremely spammable. It's just totally ridiculous. This is the best biggest ****up I ever seen in an MMO.

 

While you're at it buff sages.

 

Oh and perhaps give your PVP devs some WoW subs and tell them to go play there for a few weeks to check out how to effectively balance classes. Admitted WoW doesn't do it perfectly but my god they do it 100x better than you.

 

Slowly but surely you are actually making every single class inferior to JK/SW and in some cases by a huge margin.

 

This is the attitude that will kill SWTOR as we know it. Yes, lets nerf a class to the ground for something that has been there and viable since day 1. Yes lets nerf them because you do not understand the mechanics of the class or how completely SCREWED the class will be once focus is nerfed. Might as well remove the class from the game because there won't be a since viable tree for PVP.

 

And Sage buff? Lol wut? Was 1.4 not good enough for ya? The only spec that actually needs a MINOR buff would be DPS Sages. And even then the bubble stun not giving enough resolve would need to be fixed prior to any buff. Healer sages are fine, if you disagree L2P please then get back to me.

[xxdragonragexx]

Here is a question to ponder on. Rage/Focus has done the same amount of damage since day 1. So why is the damage so OP all of a sudden? They reworked focus/rage management for quicker sweeps.

 

This is a lie. Focus spec got a big buff last patch.

[xContex]

This is a lie. Focus spec got a big buff last patch.

 

Wrong. 10% increase to armor pen isn't a big buff. Its very small. Our base damage has been the same since day 1.

 

Good try though, please try again.

[RTCBrad]

This is the attitude that will kill SWTOR as we know it. Yes, lets nerf a class to the ground for something that has been there and viable since day 1. Yes lets nerf them because you do not understand the mechanics of the class or how completely SCREWED the class will be once focus is nerfed. Might as well remove the class from the game because there won't be a since viable tree for PVP.

 

And Sage buff? Lol wut? Was 1.4 not good enough for ya? The only spec that actually needs a MINOR buff would be DPS Sages. And even then the bubble stun not giving enough resolve would need to be fixed prior to any buff. Healer sages are fine, if you disagree L2P please then get back to me.

 

Sorry but...lmfao a sweep derp player telling me to l2p just pure lol omg lol.

 

Seriously you are one broken class, sweep damage needs to be cut in half you will still hit hard enough you just won't be able to go in around spamming away 40% of everyone's HP every few seconds.

 

Sages need serious TLC stun bubble makes us viable sure but is it fun for me to run spending 70% of my time casting bubbles? Of course not I would much rather some better survivability and much higher DPS to match our incredible squishyness but since we don't have that bubble stun is better than being utterly useless. Take away bubble without a buff and you may as well ban sages from war zones because we will be utterly useless.

[Royox]

Yes lets nerf them because you do not understand the mechanics of the class

 

Get full WH.

Remod it to full Power.

Force leap+Smash every 12 seconds to 100% chance of 6-7k crit in AOE.

Use your 5 defensice DC's to stay alive as much as possible to be able to leap+smash again.

 

 

Not very complicated......

[RTCBrad]

Get full WH.

Remod it to full Power.

Force leap+Smash every 12 seconds to 100% chance of 6-7k crit in AOE.

Use your 5 defensice DC's to stay alive as much as possible to be able to leap+smash again.

 

 

Not very complicated......

 

I would say an untrained chimp could figure it out its so simple.

[BobaStyx]

And said chimp couldn't do the same with a bubble sage/sorc right now? Pot, meet kettle