Just spammed surgical probe for 15 times in a row

[LilTsar]

agree fully with op, rate limit definitely needed

[Riggz]

This thread is so stupid I hope it get closes and nuked to hell and back

 

If they need to nerf anything its morons in MMO's because we all know how imbalanced the ratio of good's and derps are. Everyone seems to roll moron these days...

[tacito]

Okay, let me make sure I understand the situation correctly.

 

Two people focused a tank. With a healer nearby. Without so much as touching the healer, let alone CC him. And doing such minimal damage, that surgical probe spam kept the target alive. Which is the least powerful direct heal the operative has.

 

There is something wrong with that scenario, but frankly, I see a lot of things the attackers could have done better. CC the healer. Actually GO for the healer first while CCing the tank. Holding off on damage to let the tank drift above 30% health so you run of surgical probes, then CC you. The list goes on.

 

Of course 2 damage dealers will have a tough time facing a tank/healer combo. That's what those combos are for. It is entirely impossible to keep a damage dealer up against two enemies with just surgical probes, unless both healer and DD seriously outgear the attackers.

 

Now I won't disagree that the heal spec is powerful, but in that particular situation, every healer in the game would have kept the tank up.

[Asvarduil]

Why regranting Tactical Advantage on using surgical probe on <30% hp target does not have a cooldown? Any other powerful proc ability in game has a cd.

 

Can we stop with this easy mode effortless healing of operatives? Its a faceroll no skill healing class. Its so damn easy to survive as an op healer that it is mind-boggling. Every damn rwz will have an op healer, nobody will miss other healers if ops will replace them.

 

I play a Scoundrel Healer, Captain Kruhnch of Shadowlands, and we have a similar ability called "Emergency Medpack" which consumes Upper Hand...unless it is spec'd into with Emergent Emergencies to re-grant Upper Hand if used on a target with < 30% HP.

 

Let me tell you - the ability is not overpowered at all. The heal yes consumes no Energy, and is on the 2sec GCD, but the effect is significantly less than that of Medical Scan or Kolto Pack (or the Operative equivalents), even with crits (I'm sitting at something like 22% crit rate, 63.02% critical effect, +102 Healing at Lv.37) - my biggest emergency medpack crit is in the 2.2ks, whereas I routinely crit 4k+ Medical Scans.

 

I get the most use out of it when some dumb Jugg or Guardian who is Shield spec is chasing me around, and I drop two Slow-Release Medpacks on myself, and use Emergency Medpack when they inevitably smash-burst me down to 30% HP. But that's not the point. Point is: ability is not overpowered, and is still incredibly useful.

Edited December 8, 2012 by Asvarduil

[NoTomorrow]

Ops defending this talent remind me of maras defending their derpsmash. It needs to be on CD.

CC will not do crap to a guarded op healer like ops. I got resolve limiting the amount of CC they apply to me. If they flashbang my tank, i will just cleanse it.

 

Hell i can kill 1vs1 powertech pyro without a guard, If i get a guard, there is NOTHING, NOTHING they can do.

Give me an asassin and together we can keep a team of 4 players busy easily.

Edited December 8, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Ferkles]

I've got a smuggler healer and to be honest, spamming that skill on someone below 30% HP only works when there's one person attack that person, and sometimes not even then. It's not the most effective heal you can do in that situation by any means.

[vimm]

Is this seriously a thread about nerfing healers?

 

Wow.

 

Meaning you thinking that healers are weak?

[NoTomorrow]

Sorc/Sage placing a stun bubble on him? Would have shielded him for double the amount of a SP/EM in half the gcd's. Also when breaking would have halted some of the incoming dmg through CC. Giving him time to land a big heal, where you are shoe-horned into using 1 ability to HOPE for breathing room to get him any higher than 30%. Also when breaking would have halted some of the incoming dmg through CC.

 

bubble has 17s lockdown. You cannot spam it on the same person during that time. The stun will ne nerfed anyway, most probably not allowing the stun effect apply to non-caster. Surgical probe is a spamable thing, that allows operative to heal a good amount of health while fully in motion and LoS snipers and other ranged DPS.

 

Lot of ppl play concealment well, but why bring them when you can bring a smasher or pyro for their MUCH higher burst potential and group utility. They fill such a small role in this game, so it doesn't really matter how well you play them in their current form. And if you're talking about node guarding in stealth, why not bring an assassin? Generally speaking, they are going to last longer solo guarding than an concealment operative of equal skill/gear.

but that is the argument i keep hearing from ops over and over again: "we have only 1 viable PvP spec, you cannot nerf healing or we will be useless in pvp". As for smashers burst potential, newsflash, an MM sniper can shutdown a smasher easily, and even ignore 90% of smash damage. While the concealment can easily shutdown snipers in return. As for node guarding, an assassin is of course formidable, but concealment has a frontloaded burst which in some situations is preferable.

Also i've taken the nodes from assassins with my concealment pretty well. No big deal. As being stealthed and knockeddown by a stealther is the least they expect while guarding a node.

 

Every healing class has their own group synergy. You are comparing apples to oranges. Why do mercs get a 25% dmg mitigation shield that increases healing received (when specced) by 20%, and prevents them from being interrupted for the duration? Why do sorcs get force sprint, aoe knockback (with root if specced), and a bubble that is NOT affected by trauma debuff? (Mind you, this accounts for a large portion of their healing done). You can't compare different classes like that on an even level. Healing ops are in a good place. Mercs and sorcs need a buff if anything.

Group synergy or not, no healer should be in a position where they only fear melee DPS. Of all 3, only operatives have such a ridiculous capacity to LoS any ranged DPS while still being able to heal themselves and team mates arround them so easily.

 

Yes, the 4% dmg reduction is nice. Just like a LOT of classes have great abilities in the first 2 tiers of other trees (game breaking in some cases). Some so powerful in the third tier you easily give your 31 point talent for it. (Unstoppable for tanks)

 

wait wait, stop BS, a Tier 2 skill is a tier 2 skill, don't you compare it with a T3 skill, the difference being you have to sacrifice T7 skill in other tree. Regardless it needs to be 2% max, 4% for only 2 skill points, making operative a heavy armor class basically, it's ridiculous.

 

Let's see, we have a 25 pt talent that is near worthless in PVP, a heal NO GOOD OPERATIVE uses, and a lack of combat defensive cooldowns (evasion is good, but such a small duration, and don't EVEN mention disappearing act. Not only can you not cast heals while stealthed, the healing that is ticking away and done to you is reduced to 0 for 10 seconds). So we need those abilities to pick up the slack on everything else. It is called "balance".

wait wait, are you actually saying that cloaking screen is underpowered?? muhahaha, a free get out of jail free card every 2 mins, jeez, that must be a terrible skill to have. Evasion cleanses even force debuffs, something you cannot remove with your tech cleanse. It's fricking huge.

 

As for PTs, they are the ONLY dps class that, if geared, can burst down a healer without having to interrupt/cc them. And smashers? Not going into that. So the 2 classes that do well against us comprise 75% of war zones these days. GG

Where can i get the same weed that you smoke? I want to see a PT killing a good healer without needing to interrupt anything.

 

In reference to you and your assassin friend.....permission granted to play against dps worth a damn. Hell, if 2 of those 5 were smashers you'd be taking a dirt nap. Or are you insinuating you can pull the 2-3k hps required to keep you both up? Yes, I've facerolled against 5 bad players before without guard, but didn't hold it as any achievement because they were terribad. 3 coordinated dps will kill you and your tank. Ones that know to attack the tank to bypass his taunting, and cc/interrupt you or just pull out a lot of aoe burst like smash.

 

As if we healers and tanks and dps cannot coordinate either? You speak as if healer waits to be stunned and interruped and the tank just sits there like an idiot waiting for his healer to be butcherd. We can counter enemy CC with our own CC, its not that bioware didn't give assassins a plethora of CC in this game, or jugs.

 

Never said it wasn't strong. The class is balanced around this ability being this way with talents. If your team can't work around it then it is YOU that needs to fix yourself, not changing a spec. You were not CC'ed for 23 seconds while spamming SP.....NEWSFLASH any healer that isn't being bothered will put out great healing numbers. In fact, sorcs will put out MORE throughput if not bothered. It is a tradeoff.

i heard this argument 1000 times: use coordinated CC. That CC will lock me only when we are vastly outnumbered. 2 enemies are not gonna cut it, especially since we have CC ourselves. I can heal from 30m. How many classes have 30m CC??? do i need to remind you? Only snipers and snipers are a joke to deal with as an operative anyway.

There is only 2 30m CC in the game: sniper flashbang and engineering IP+ PP combo.

Edited December 8, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Gliese]

Spamming surgical probe <30% still won't save the target if they have a mara/sent or jugg/guard on them. one smash and 30% of there health is gone anyways...

[Zunayson]

I think it's a gear issue most of all.

 

when people get out-dpsed constantly (I mean numbers wise - I don't care how good you are, 4k railshots are statistically higher damage than the 3k ones recruits put out), they attribute it to gear or class balance. They are used to the notion that all classes should be created to have equal damage capabilities. I think its that they're saying that healing is OP, and it's harder to say gear is a factor since healing and damage shouldn't be on par.

 

When 1.2 hit live I got my medicine op to 50 and yeah Surgical Probe sort of sucked. I never really cared for the gear gap, though. As a healer, I'm more concerned about keeping people alive. Any failure was probably my fault on resource management or being in the right place at the right time. As a recruit-half-bm LolVigilanceGuardian against a min/maxed WH operative, I have trouble taking down the last 30%. It's probably a gear issue, though. There's no reason my execute should only crit for 2.5k.

 

TL;DR

Saying operatives are OP is probably like saying a merc is op simply because he has better gear.

[Daiyukie]

if u can't out dps surgical probe, I'm suprized you got healer down to 30% in the first place....

 

This. This so hard it hurts.

Edited December 9, 2012 by Daiyukie

[Daiyukie]

wait wait, are you actually saying that cloaking screen is underpowered?? muhahaha, a free get out of jail free card every 2 mins, jeez, that must be a terrible skill to have. Evasion cleanses even force debuffs, something you cannot remove with your tech cleanse. It's fricking huge.

 

Evasion is a completely separate cooldown, but thanks for highlighting how useless the cloak is without it since you seem to pair them up automatically.

[CaptainApop]

Let me put this bluntly. Surgical probe refund does not need a hardset cooldown because it has a effective limiter in practical use.

 

In practice, you MAY get one or two free probes against good players. Any situation you get more than that the incoming damage is **** and weirdly constant as opposed bursty.

 

Situation the first. The target you heal is not under high pressure. Maybe they've popped a cooldown like guarded by the force, maybe they've vanished or maybe they've LoS'd the ranged murdering them. Either way they're low on hp but not taking damage. You get one maybe two free probes to stabilize them and then they're out of 30% and you need real heals.

All this gains you is energy. Hypothetically you had the time to heal this person as they aren't getting focused.

 

Situation the second. The target IS under pressure. You get *potentially* loads of free probes however good players dps is higher than your hps from spamming surgical probe alone. All you can do is delay their death for one or two GCDs. OR if you get some concurrent crits you may win yourself enough time to get a real heal off. Maybe.

Worth noting due to jamminess it's not uncommon for one probe to take someone out of 30% range, blow your last TA and then for the damage to hit (nanoseconds later due to latency) and take them back into gib range. IF you are just mindlessly spamming probes.

 

So one or two free probes. Anything from 3-4.5k healing over two GCDs. THAT is your stupidly overpowered ability?

 

How dumb people can avoid this causing their brains to hurt.

 

1. Stun the operative when their tank/ball carrier is getting low. Interupt them before this. Seems simple enough. Their instants outside of 30% range are not going to stop your team chipping anything down and while they're stunned they can't spam probes.

2. Don't burst at the start, chip away some health first then burst. By and large any damage before 70% health generally gets ignored. You'll throw out rotational probes or let the hots take care of it. If someone drops to 20% there is nothing the operative can do OTHER than spam those probes, you will kill the guy eventually. All the healer will do is slow you down.

Edited December 9, 2012 by CaptainApop

[Glower]

Leave this probe alone, but buff sorc/sage and merc/commando insa-heals!

[Lexlo]

So why's there no CD? The point is, its spammable - a spammable effect that hard-counters execution abilities.

 

Because that's intended -- it's counter-play. Many classes have moves that amplify when a target is at less than 30% health. This move offsets that so they never kick in.

 

 

Don't pretend that executes are the only way to kill an enemy.

[CaptainApop]

Because that's intended -- it's counter-play. Many classes have moves that amplify when a target is at less than 30% health. This move offsets that so they never kick in.

 

I wouldn't even say it hard counters them anymore. They used kick in at 20% whereas surgical probe would kick in at 30%. if you were watching the target you could actively prevent executes even being usable. THAT is a hard counter.

 

What they do now that both are set to 30% is diminish the effect of an execute somewhat, ie a SOFT counter. Execute still puts the dps ahead (does more damage than probe heals in one GCD). I might agree with them still hard countering if dispatch and the like were melee range moves and someone was topped above 30%(for free) before they caught back up to them but in reality the second someone drops below 30% every lightsaber in that zone flies at them at record pace.

Edited December 9, 2012 by CaptainApop

[BenitsubasaChiyo]

Yeah, I absolutely agree with OP - nerf Operatives/Scoundrels even more. Because we clearly haven't had enough stupid nerfs already.