Sith Warrior ability bloat

[aeterno]

Of course it doesnt help that the Jugg/Guardian was, until late beta, a Tank only character and that the DPS spec was only added late beta and you can see it clearly looking at the skill trees really.

 

I don't see it actually. How do the lolsplash and mara for dummies convey "tank" to you?

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

My main is a Sith Juggernaut. I also have a level 50 Mercenary, Sorcerer, Sniper, & Sentinel. I did notice that it seemed like the Jugg and Sentinel I fill up every bit of 3 bars with combat abilities, while I have yet to do that with either of the other 3. I thought it was just because since my jugg is my main I knew it's abilities better, but the OP could be right that they simply have more. Ultimately though I don't think this is a problem. You have the option to not play the class if you think the abilities are overwhelming. Jugg is still my favorite.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Wow, what is it about all those with the hate towards the OP? Never did the OP ask for a change to the Sith Warriors, all the OP was doing was posting an observation/opinion of their experience to those classes.

 

So instead of people offering advice to the OP on how to play the classes better what is happening? Attacking the OP. It really is a wonder that this game has any subscribers with the negative and attacking attitudes in this forum.

 

OP, best advice, ignore the righteous attackers in this thread. Find those who play these classes in-game and see if they will kindly give you advice on maybe ways to play these classes where they will be more fun to you. I have not really played the classes so I wont offer any other advice then what I have already said.

 

If the OP says they are overwhelmed with the number of abilities in one class versus all others then the only way to *fix* that would be to nerf away some of the abilities. Wether the OP explicitly asked for it or not, it's implicit in the post and that's why people are raging. Warriors raging cause they don't want their abilities taken away, other classes raging cause they'd like more abilities and not fewer.

[Zoiks]

Personally I find this true on all classes/specs.

 

The only one I don't feel it as much on is my PT pyro, you can completely ignore 50% of the abilities that class gets without it having any significant impact on your performance. Some may say that's a bad thing, but personally I'd rather have a tight rotation with just a few branching exceptions than a giant oak tree of conditional branches. That kind of extensive priority rotation comes at the cost of ease of play, especially with no in-game support for macros and craptacular targeting (both tab and trying to click people in a melee with no clickable nameplates).

[ShawnSixtyTwo]

Best advice is probably the one OP wants to hear the least. Invest into a mice with a bunch of buttons, like Naga. Once you do that it'll make the more dynamic play style that requires more frequent ability juggling on the fly a lot easier and in the end perhaps even certain other classes to you cos you'll instinctively perceive them as too simplistic.

 

Naga for the win! Seriously.

 

My main is a Sentinel, and before I got a Naga I considered it to be a "piano player" class. I would get muddled up hitting all the modified keybinds (ctrl, alt, or shift + numpad) and often hit the wrong thing. Now I'm set up so that all the abilities I need to hit frequently and without thinking too much just take one key or Naga button to activate - no need to remember "is that bound to ctrl- or alt- 5?" in the heat of combat. I even changed my primary and secondary quickbars to the shape of their layout for my left hand on the keyboard and my right-hand Naga abilities with the UI editor.

http://i46.tinypic.com/if0bqc.jpg

 

Keep at it. I'm glad my first character was the Sentinel. Everything else has been trivial to get the hang of since.

[Deimias]

Someone please explain how liking the inclusion of more abilities = more skill?

 

Pressing every button on CD doesn't mean jack. Maintaining situationally tight control of 4 abilities is a lot harder than just hitting every button that lights up.

[LordArtemis]

Overall I feel the amount of specials is pretty much out of control. There are far too many specials that have little daylight between them, other than perhaps how they trigger.

 

I would have, instead, upgraded current specials to add features and effects and kept the number around 8 max. Specs would have changed those specials to add additional features or effects, reduce cooldowns, increase power, range, etc.

[Nyla]

Someone please explain how liking the inclusion of more abilities = more skill?

 

Pressing every button on CD doesn't mean jack. Maintaining situationally tight control of 4 abilities is a lot harder than just hitting every button that lights up.

 

It's not about more or less skill, it's about keeping a class how it was designed and not changing it to something else.

 

If EA wants to have classes with 4 skills, fine with me, but do that in new classes, don't change existing classes as it would maybe please some people but also upset some.

 

 

As for what require more skill, it's a pointless debate. Some like you will say it's harder because you have only 4, others might say it's harder with more because you have more chance to not choose the most efficient ability. In the end, it doesn't matter because different games offer different playstyles and it seems to me a lot better to play the games that correspond to your playstyle than trying to change one that isn't to your liking.

[LarryRow]

OP, you just need to go to the class forums. Sheesh. They are filled with basic rotations based on your spec. Even Knights and Warriors only need 6-8 abilities most of the time. The rest are situational and that's where skill comes in.

 

For example, I have leg slash (50% snare) on my hotbar, but it's not part of my Carnage rotation, which relies on roots instead of slows. However, when those rooting abilities are on CD, I'll work it in to stay on my target. Marauders also get a DoT as a base ability, which I have banished to a sidebar with no keybind, because in Carnage there are always better abilities to use. A final example from Carnage (most specs don't have an analogous situation) is that I replaced Vicious Slash with Massacre because they are almost exactly the same, but Massacre has more benefits and will do a little more damage.

 

Another good example is Guardian. If you are DPS, you should not be using cyclone slash unless you are trying to stop a cap in PvP and Sweep is on cooldown. In other words, it doesn't need to be terribly easy to reach this button.

[Andryah]

Any chance you could stop complaining?? If you dont like someone else's opinion... press back on your browser?

 

Now you are being ironic.

 

As to your original post.... personally I have not had your issues. Then again... I don't try to play every skill they give me. Some are small return for the complexity they introduce (just like most other classes).

 

TL;DR: you are under no obligation to play every skill a class can learn/use. I encourage you to experiment with a more minimalist approach. The only real challenge for Sith Warrior is that this requires a bit more thought and evaluation then say... a bounty hunter.

[skiibyrd]

Clearly you did not read the whole of what i have written.

 

My post was about how overwhelmed i feel whilst playing either AC of the Sith Warrior class. And that it is the reason i rarely play either class. My 41 Juggernaut was level 41 in January of this year. My 35 Marauder hit 35, in June. I created my 50 Assassin August and my 50 Sage in the same month.

 

Sounds like a QQ thread of someone who need to L2P, as a player who has a Highly geared marauder as my main, I can say its not too many things when you get your rotation down, and pay attention to the fights... LIKE YOU SHOULD. I almost think you may be tolling, why else would you state you cound almost play the other classes half asleep... how is that fun or even challenging? Any good player usually is not doing this until they completely have their rotation, and the specific fight down, but even then, there are so many variables in each fight, that you should never be at the point that its so easy your falling asleep.

 

If you really are having trouble, but want to play the class, the only advice is what others have already said.... with this being my first MMORPG I was really overwhelmed with what seemed like tons of abilites (and again, Marauder is my main), but then I looked into things further, and purchased the Razor Naga mouse and it was gamechaning, the game played way better for me, and it instantly became much easier to manage abilites... and this actually applies to all PC gaming, I noticed a huge improvement on my SC2 gameplay since I purchased it as well.

Edited November 30, 2012 by skiibyrd

[asbalana]

I have a 35 Mara and a 41 Jugg.

 

I dont level them much mostly because there are just so many abilities that i feel i need to use in every fight to maximise efficiency in killing and therefore achieving mission objectives.

 

I have a 46 Merc, 50 Sage, 50 Sniper and a 50 Assassin. None of those i feel overwhelmed with abilities. Hell, on all of them i am quite happy using only 4-6 abilities for every single fight, not including big cooldowns when needed (eg. oh sh!!t buttons).

 

When my Assassin was 46, i finished her class story whilst only using a maximum of about 6 abilities the whole fight. And i could have done it half asleep.

 

It is just the Sith Warrior classes that i am not able to watch the screen at all - i am forced to permanently pay attention to the ability cooldowns for priority abilities.

 

My Jugg for example, is Immortal talented to ensure survival with Quinn as permanent companion. Ensures i can solo everything except heroics very easily and most importantly - EFFICIENTLY.

 

I have to agree although I find the JK worse. I have a 50 Jugg / Immortal, 50 Trooper, 50 SI, and 35 Sniper. My JK Guardian Vig is at level 48, I use the abiities on two bars for the JK constantly and use those on a third and forth bar in special occasions. There does seem to be many ""close" abilities that are somewhat duplicative and a large number of important proc based abilities. Also, as with any character, I have to manage cool downs. As a result, I find that I am forced to watch the ability bars closely during a fight which takes away from my awareness of the fight itself. I use a number of different starting rotations in fights depending on the mobs that I am fighting, but after that I find that I am "playing he procs" and managing the cool downs which again keeps my eyes on the bars.

 

Although I have not played WOW for a while my mind goes back to my demo lock. I also ran a number of bars for that character, but almost never looked at them. The flow of abilities, on screen prompts when a proc occurred, and responsiveness of the combat system made it possible to "feel" the cool downs and play your character without ever looking a the bars and without needing an add on.

[SamuraBob_Fl]

Someone please explain how liking the inclusion of more abilities = more skill?

 

Pressing every button on CD doesn't mean jack. Maintaining situationally tight control of 4 abilities is a lot harder than just hitting every button that lights up.

 

Warriors don't simply "hit every button that lights up." There's rage management to consider, cooldown management, and depending on your spec, a significant amount of reacting to procs.

[Zaxem]

I have a 35 Mara and a 41 Jugg.

 

I dont level them much mostly because there are just so many abilities that i feel i need to use in every fight to maximise efficiency in killing and therefore achieving mission objectives.

 

I have a 46 Merc, 50 Sage, 50 Sniper and a 50 Assassin. None of those i feel overwhelmed with abilities. Hell, on all of them i am quite happy using only 4-6 abilities for every single fight, not including big cooldowns when needed (eg. oh sh!!t buttons).

 

When my Assassin was 46, i finished her class story whilst only using a maximum of about 6 abilities the whole fight. And i could have done it half asleep.

 

It is just the Sith Warrior classes that i am not able to watch the screen at all - i am forced to permanently pay attention to the ability cooldowns for priority abilities.

 

My Jugg for example, is Immortal talented to ensure survival with Quinn as permanent companion. Ensures i can solo everything except heroics very easily and most importantly - EFFICIENTLY.

 

I would say assassin is more overwhelmed than a sith warrior on my assassin every single spot has a ablity on this was before we got 6 action bars while my sith warrior had maybe a bar - 1/2 a bar with nothing on it

[Karkais]

Considering my dps sorcerers rotation is 4 attacks (singletarget) plus maybe 3 others used occasionally, I can certainly agree with there being sith warrior ability bloat (I have a lvl 50 mara for pvp). Whether its a bad thing is another thing altogether.

 

And, Im repeating what I said elsewhere, my marauder is by far the most complicated character to play in terms of abilities. (I have sorcerer, mara, powertech and scoundrel as high level). By a wide margin. Just saying.

 

Im fine it being like this, however. Kinda like it being challenging.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Karkais

[Wallach]

For me the Juggernaut is just about on the edge of where I will tolerate skill bloat. There are definitely some buttons that aren't anywhere near interesting enough to deserve an entire slot to themselves, but there aren't so many that I can't fit everything into around 30 hotkeys for skills. The Sniper is the same way; a handful that are so trivial I hardly care about them but not so many that I'd need to crack a 5th hotbar open to fit everything (including my non-class stuff that needs hotkeys). The one that crosses the line for me is Scoundrel/Operative, especially as a healer since all three skills you pick up from the tree require high priority hotkey slots.

 

Unfortunately that doesn't leave me very optimistic about what will happen when they increase the level/skill point cap. I play GW2 alongside TOR and they're so much smarter about how they handle hotkeys versus the total number of skills you have access to. My Engineer in that game has around 30 skills at any given moment but only needs 14 hotkeys. If TOR plans to ever actually moves the classes forward at some point they're going to need to do some cleanup work in this regard.

[KryloKillian]

Got a 50 marauder, buncha ~30characters, and a 50 GS.

 

Agree there's lots of skills to juggle in order to play effectively, at least soloing. Group situations are actually much easier because you don't have to be throwing multiple defensive cooldowns on while debuffing enemy accuracy every single fight in addition to a large DPS rotation (though I guess if you bring Malavi everywhere you can get away with not doing that, but then you're bringing Yawn-Fest Quinn for all the dialogue and boo on that).

 

However, that's just the play style for this class. Some people enjoy that. I found leveling to 50 quite fun, myself.

 

If you're feeling overwhelmed by it, I'd suggest either doing as someone else said and rerolling and devoting to your warrior for awhile to learn all the skills and rotations more fluidly, or just not playing it if the class doesn't suit you.

 

That said, lulz at the people saying the class is fine if you buy an eighty dollar peripheral. As if requiring a gaming mouse to play normally is a defense of the class.

 

Luckily, it doesn't actually require that and is quite playable on keyboard and a normal mouse. Once I got the hang of the class I actually found it to blow through content much more easily than my other characters--though it certainly required paying more attention, and took longer to get the hang of.

Edited December 5, 2012 by KryloKillian

[TrigPt]

One thing I've experimented with is using the 6th toolbar as a cooldown tracker.

I cut it down to 4 slots, made it vertical, shrank it a bit and placed it over the bottom half of my toon.

Then filled it with copies of ability icons just to track the important cooldown numbers. This allows me to spend more time following the action rather than scanning action bars.

 

Wish you could do the same with procs. PVP can be a ***** sometimes when your procs are mixed in with buff/debuffs/dots etc Especially in group battles when your toons health meter can light up like a christmas tree.

[ZeroPlus]

One thing I've experimented with is using the 6th toolbar as a cooldown tracker.

 

This is something I've been thinking of doing... on all my toons... need to sit down and just do it!

[Warlyx]

Wish you could do the same with procs. PVP can be a ***** sometimes when your procs are mixed in with buff/debuffs/dots etc Especially in group battles when your toons health meter can light up like a christmas tree.

 

yeah , procs/buffs in this game are barely visible >< , i will kill for a power auras addon implemented tracking procs/buffs is a pain , u barely see the game and play the UI

[Projawa]

You don't need to use a lot of warrior abilities when leveling up. Crippling slash/Retaliate/pommel strike/savage kick are situational nice to haves that are completely optional. Depending on your spec, others like Rupture are optional as well. Your really only have 6-7 core priority abilities, just like most other classes.

 

I leveled to 50 with every advanced class except operative/scoundrel and warriors have about the same ability requirement of the other classes except maybe pyro powertechs (AS vanguards) which are very simple to play.

 

Keep in mind this is just the leveling process. PVP and endgame PVE are a different matter.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Projawa

[Elyx]

I have 4 lvl 50's...sage, shadow, jugg, and merc. I Don't feel like my Jugg is any worse to play then the others.

 

the key with the jugg/warrior is that their CORE rotation revolves around a simple group of skills with a very easy to learn priority list. personally, I find that my TK sage is just as bad,but from a different perspective. she has a few buttons she regularly mashes 1..2...1...1..1...2...1...2, and then a few more when things proc. So looks like this: 1...2...1...1...1...3...1...1...2...3...4...1..1...1... 3 and 4 are the proc abilities like TK throw and TW. but in comparison....

 

My jugg has about as many skills in her basic prio list, but she uses them all at least once per rotation. looks like this:

1..2...3...1...4...5...1...2...3..1..4..5

 

1 is sunder of course, and the others are the hard hitting skills in my arsenal. but as you can see...the basic rotation right there isn't hard, and it provides the bulk of your damage. the only other thing you watch out for is ravage procs. so it would prob look like this:

1...2...3...1...4...5...1...ravage...1...2...3...1...4..5...1...ravage...1...ravage... etc.

 

really, once you get the basic rotation down, the rest of those skills fall into situational...situations. like hilt strike. I have it wired in so much that i always hit my HS button after a stun. force push is a "paying attention" kind of skill...i enjoy being able to figure out how to place it in a fight to help out the team or just for kicks and giggles (love playing my jug inn false emp..soo many things to throw off the edge! )

[Wrthlessnoob]

Sounds like you are the one complaining. Honestly its nice to have all of those abilities at our disposel. If you feel overwhelemed dont play that class. And it really isnt that hard to play them either.

 

This^

[Andronicos]

I don't agree with the OP, though I know where he's coming from, Juggs get a lot of abilities that are niche useful so you want to keep them in your bar, however not many of those are needed for effective leveling PVE (for example, Pommel strike, its okish but you don't need to use it to win, or savage kick that one never makes it to my bar!)

 

So it's easy to get overwhelmed by the amount of skills you think you need, but it's just a matter of just keeping the really useful ones in prioritized slots.

 

That's my experience for juggs and guards, never played Marauders or sentinels so can't speak for them

[SacredTorment]

I play a level 36 Mara and I don't find the amount of abilities overwhelming. I also don't use alot of them. I have him spec'd in a certain way so that I only focus on certain things rendering some abilities useless. I only use 1 full hotbar and about half of a second hotbar for combat. This includes my oh sh*t buttons. My only advice would be to narrow your area of focus as far as what you want your character to do in combat and then trim your abilities accordingly.