Problems with the solo queue idea....

[Doomsdaycomes]

edit....This is a text book example of simply being lazy, there is nothing preventing that poster taking the next logical step of grouping up for success. (Don't tell me time, they obviously had enough time to do the full optimized grind while apparently losing the whole way).... as for this uninformed statement of brilliance..... I run a business with 60+ hrs a week varying hours and times a family and other real life commitments that keep me from being able to plan around any form of pvp or pve schedule. I get home around 4 am server time and want to log in for and hr or so of pvp dailies and stuff to relax (note 4 am morning not daytime etc so on). I dont log in at that time to get bent over and reamed repeatedly by a premade team that shouldnt be there in the first place.

 

Hahhaha... very sneaky. Put in an edit to justify you "Doom is Blind" comment. Kinda smells like a politician... or a sleazy car salesman.

 

I have a 40+ hour job (night crew), weekly commitments (including 2 PT appointments and a bimonthly doctors appointment), 2-3 hour round trip commute, family, friends, and a second game I play with my S.O. Is this to say we have equal time, probably not, but I'd be confident to say I have as much of a life as you do and a goodd deal of time commitments in my week.

 

More importantly... you had the time to grind full optimized WH. Maybe it took you since 1.2 to do it, but you obviously have some time. It does not take a major time commitment to add good pvpers you PuG with to your friendslist. It does not take a major time commitment to join a guild. (We have several in ours that log in 1-2 hours every other day, and some that only log in on the weekend). It takes a few minutes at the most to send a whisper or two to good people on your friendslist and ask them to group up, and it very easy to ask in guild chat.

 

So don't give me the "I don't have -time-" Q.Q while you're sitting around in full optimized WH. I have a life too, yet I have done this. You can too.

 

(Btw, giving up before even attempting to do something about it yourself is quitting. I would hope a 60+ hour business owner would be more of a go getter. What kinda business you run?)

[Ashaari]

So its obvious from your posts Doom, that people should only play to win and that having fun whilst losing is not only outside your mindset, but should be actively discouraged?

 

Remember for evey winner in WZ's there is a loser, if there is no fun for losers why should they continue to let you have your fun from winning?

 

I really could create a list of reasons people dont like grouping for you, but if you dont have sufficient empathy to envisage that for yourself I doubt you would accept any reason as valid. I am assuming you are USA based? This would certainly explain your apparrent lack of understanding of language issues in mainland Europe, but this will give ayou a clue as to only one possible valid reason.

 

Pause for thought, try really hard to look at the world from other peoples perspectives and you might start to understand.

 

In the meantime , we have agreed that whilst an ideal theoretical solution is matchmaking, it will not happen soon and it would probably be so bugged as to totally destroy what little credability BW still have left. We have not agreed that solo queues wont work, but for the purposes of this discussion I will accept that that is your valid opinion.

 

I have suggested changing ranked to 4 man queues x2 to reduce waiting timesand organisational demands and in order to make ranked more attractive to pre-mades and therefore normal less attractive by default.

 

Lets have a valid suggestion from you as to how to deal with this issue other than "you must group whether you want to or not" or in other words your assertion that maintaining the current status quo is the only solution.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Ashaari
spelling

[foxmob]

the best wins I've had were in rated where we narrowly won. I can think of an NC <bloodline> vs. <watchmen> with a a couple <LD50> pugs. man! we were going tooth and nail over south for what seemed like forever. there was no way either team was going to be able to completely push the other off the node long enough to cap. so it came down to knocking enough ppl into the spawn area and then using awe to cap. it took like 4 or 5 separate occasions of awe and re-awe before we finally got the cap, and that pretty much decided the game.

 

best loss was exactly the same, except this was against <infidels> in CW. epic battle for mid. we only lost it cuz we had to take a chance at snow, which they'd capped a couple seconds before we capped grass. that actually felt good - lost opportunity, but the feeling that "hey, I left it all on the field" sort of exhaustion. and we were definitely ready to re-queue.

 

that's what "competitive" means to me, not rofl stomping teams that are utterly inferior. I know those were rateds back before the queues completely died and it's OT but...iunno. there it is. back to the usual banter.

[filipesantana]

1-team playing social interaction TIME based game=mmo ....

 

2-I can't Play with randoms,the majority are terrible for lots of reasons...(like 90% of the pvp player base)

 

3-even when On a premade sometimes I get frustrated with the other 4 randoms..

 

 

This is why I support rated pvp(dead ATM) sInce ratings are the Only reliable skill mesure...and rating requirements on gear to reward skill and not the lack of it like we have it now

 

 

Yes,proudly an elitist jerk..Im not here to please everyone neither to teach,carry or just play...

[Erishumlol]

Easy solution imo.

 

Premades -

 

2 groups of 4 or 1 group of 8 to join, now premades vs premades only.

 

Solo Q -

 

Exactly what it means, solo to join. No grouping at all, not even 2 people. solo Q vs solo Q players only.

 

Premades receive higher rewards than solo Q's. Introduce a match making system and fix some of the issues with PVP, heck even add cross server WZ's and watch PVP thrive again.

 

Premade players can't complain about anything and neither will solo players if they introduce something like this.

 

Moba, RTS and FPS games all have solo Q's so why can't MMO's?

 

People complain they want MMO's to change but then have a fit if it's something that doesn't suit them.

 

Fact is some people don't want to group up, don't want to jump on Skype, Mumble etc so why not give them an option to do some competitive PVP like ranked?

 

I premade BTW so don't come at me with learn to play with others, find a guild etc crap.

[ArchangelLBC]

First off anyone saying "easy solution: <proceeds to spew badly thought out idiocy>" is wrong on the face of it. There isn't a nice simple easy solution because if there was they'd have done it because contrary to popular belief I don't think even BW likes being thought of as incompetent hacks.

 

Pause for thought, try really hard to look at the world from other peoples perspectives and you might start to understand.

 

Right back at you. I hate when people say bullcrap like this while continuing to soldier on as if THEIR opinion is the undisputed correct opinion. If you want to completely ignore other people's perspective because their perspective is dumb that's fine, but have the moral courage to own it rather than trying to drop this worthless platitude. If you actually MEAN it then explain your best understanding of the other person's viewpoint, and then list why you disagree.

 

 

ON TOPIC: Whatever else you may think, Solo only queues are a dumb idea. They WILL punish premades which should never be something encouraged in an MMO and if you can't understand this you should unsub. They will probably have an adverse effect on solo queuers. Here's a hint: if you're getting constantly rolled by premades, and then those premades go to their own queue, who is it that you think you'll be facing? How can you possibly imagine that your own queue times will not be adversely effected? For this tradeoff the fresh 50s will still get rolled by the geared solo queuers and this will at best address only one of the many problems which lies at the heart of the huge disparity that plagues matches which includes but is not limited to gear and skill disparity. In addition you are flat out a worse PVPer in this game if you solo queue exclusively. Why? Because this is a completely team based game, and grouping up with people you know just flat out produces better teamwork. The reason those premades aren't talking to you is they're talking to each other.

 

That may sound harsh and you are almost certainly capable of becoming good at the things you can do by yourself but the real power of a premade is becoming more than the sum of your parts, and as someone who enjoys MMO I much prefer that kind of game play. I'd rather lose with people I enjoy playing with than win with a bunch of randoms I don't know. That's why I have a hard time understanding the solo queuers perspective. Why wouldn't you want to play with others? As hard as the grind is why wouldn't you want to make it easier on yourself by asking guildmates to group up in PVP? I know that some of you don't have this mentality. I don't understand it. Please explain it to me. To the guy playing at 4am. Obviously SOMEONE else is queuing at 4am or you wouldn't be getting in matches at all. Sorry this is off topic again but lets put our swords away for a second and actually try to understand one another.

 

Anyway, the thing that people defending the solo queue need to understand is that those of us who prefer to premade agree that a change needs to be made. My personal suggestion is not necessarily an easy solution. There are almost certainly implications I haven't thought through because of the law of unintended consequences. But here we go:

 

Give out a rating similar to that of ranked warzones. If we're concerned about people being elitist about it make it hidden. The rating would be determined after 10 warzones (before that set it to null), and then adjusted every match thereafter, and would be based off of how you perform (number of medals and their type), the average rating of the others in your WZ at the time, possible other factors (such as Gear Average attained). Premades would queue with a combined rating based on the average of the rating of everyone in the group and with possibly an adjustment for being a premade (bigger adjustments for bigger groups).

 

At this point the queue would endeavor to match people with similar ratings, and would go further afield until a full 8 was found so as not to negatively impact queue times.

 

Yes this is basic matchmaking. Yes this would require someone to code it, and it would then need to be tested. Clearly the more refined you make your match making criteria the more complicated it would be and the best idea might to just assign a ranked rating for every normal warzone in the same way it's already assigned in Ranked, and just call it something different, though once the kinks are worked out more refined leads to better match making. But I think it would be a MUCH better fix than split queues.

[Doomsdaycomes]

So its obvious from your posts Doom, that people should only play to win and that having fun whilst losing is not only outside your mindset, but should be actively discouraged?

 

Remember for evey winner in WZ's there is a loser, if there is no fun for losers why should they continue to let you have your fun from winning?

 

Well... isn't the point of a match to win (atleast most of the time)? I've never seen anyone say "Hey peeps, let's lose this one, because we're all gonna stand at spawn and do the chicken dance for fun."

 

I get trying to have "fun" (which is subjective) but whether it's fun or winning your after, they both have the same solution that -you- can do. Just as you love to claim Matchmaking would be nice but would take too much to do, couldn't I say "Split brackets would be nice, but players grouping is the easiest fix."

 

I really could create a list of reasons people dont like grouping for you, but if you dont have sufficient empathy to envisage that for yourself I doubt you would accept any reason as valid. I am assuming you are USA based? This would certainly explain your apparrent lack of understanding of language issues in mainland Europe, but this will give ayou a clue as to only one possible valid reason.

 

Pause for thought, try really hard to look at the world from other peoples perspectives and you might start to understand.

 

If you can create a list please do so. Whether I accept them or not depends on whether or not their valid, or just an excuse. Biggest problem is... no one ever really tries to validate them, they just take them for granted as valid, which is not how you debate.

 

As or my level of empathy, I've talked people down from suicide, supported friends through quarrels (or pointed out where they're being unreasonable) and dealt with several real life that require me to "look" from another eyes. That doesn't mean I have to be a bleeding heart when there is a fairly simple step that others can do -before- advocating for a system change.

 

In the meantime , we have agreed that whilst an ideal theoretical solution is matchmaking, it will not happen soon and it would probably be so bugged as to totally destroy what little credability BW still have left. We have not agreed that solo queues wont work, but for the purposes of this discussion I will accept that that is your valid opinion.

 

I have suggested changing ranked to 4 man queues x2 to reduce waiting timesand organisational demands and in order to make ranked more attractive to pre-mades and therefore normal less attractive by default.

 

Patch 1.2 PvP update.

 

I'll bring this up again. Matchmaking on a criteria with gradually lessening balance as a safeguard agaist long queue times has been part of BW's vision since 1.2. While this article specifically refers to ranked, it is possible the ground work for my proposed system has already been laid. Without accurate data on BW's programmers, programs, and current projects, you can not determine which system is more possible.

 

Lets have a valid suggestion from you as to how to deal with this issue other than "you must group whether you want to or not" or in other words your assertion that maintaining the current status quo is the only solution.

 

I have made one, matchmaking based on a criteria.

 

I also insist that just as the problem maybe many fold, the solution may be many fold. Just Affirmitive action was a bad thing (giving jobs to underqualified minorities over qualified majorities in the interest of fairness) while Education for all (both General/Skills and aginst Racism), as well as safeguards against discriminition would have proved the better system for the -actual- probem.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Easy solution imo.

 

Premades -

 

2 groups of 4 or 1 group of 8 to join, now premades vs premades only.

 

Solo Q -

 

Exactly what it means, solo to join. No grouping at all, not even 2 people. solo Q vs solo Q players only.

 

Premades receive higher rewards than solo Q's. Introduce a match making system and fix some of the issues with PVP, heck even add cross server WZ's and watch PVP thrive again.

 

Premade players can't complain about anything and neither will solo players if they introduce something like this.

 

Moba, RTS and FPS games all have solo Q's so why can't MMO's?

 

People complain they want MMO's to change but then have a fit if it's something that doesn't suit them.

 

Where to begin... Lack of filling for partial premades (or in yor example no partials. Either it's 8, 4 or Solo, sorry people who play with 1-2 others!), No backfill for premades, no safeguards against long queue times... etc...

 

 

Fact is some people don't want to group up, don't want to jump on Skype, Mumble etc so why not give them an option to do some competitive PVP like ranked?

 

Competition in biology, ecology, and sociology, is a contest between organisms, animals, individuals, groups, etc., for territory, a niche, or a location of resources, for resources and goods, for prestige, recognition, awards, mates, or group or social status, for leadership; it is the opposite of cooperation. It arises whenever at least two parties strive for a goal which cannot be shared or which is desired individually but not in sharing and cooperation

 

Competiton does not equal Level playing field.

 

Edit: To Clarify, you're not talking about making them more competitive, you're talking about lowering the competition down to them.

Edited November 22, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[Smashbrother]

Proper match making is the solution. Put premades against premades, with solo queuers filling out the rest of the spots.

[ArchangelLBC]

Proper match making is the solution. Put premades against premades, with solo queuers filling out the rest of the spots.

 

Need cross server queues first. I'm telling you a rating based matchmaking system would be amazing if you had the population to avoid pitting top ranked players against bottom ranked players.

[Smashbrother]

Need cross server queues first. I'm telling you a rating based matchmaking system would be amazing if you had the population to avoid pitting top ranked players against bottom ranked players.

 

I don't think we'd need x-server to matchmake groups of 4 in normal WZs, though obviously, it would be better with x-server. AFAIK x-server isn't happening anytime soon, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't get matchmaking for normal WZs.

[ArchangelLBC]

I don't think we'd need x-server to matchmake groups of 4 in normal WZs, though obviously, it would be better with x-server. AFAIK x-server isn't happening anytime soon, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't get matchmaking for normal WZs.

 

Without it, you're just gonna lower queue times without fixing anything. Also the system has to know what to do with 2 and 3 man groups.

 

Also I can easily conceive of some issues you'd run into with just your scheme as I understand it. What is the system's priority for the matchmaking. I know you said match premade against premade, but what if there are three premades out there, and none of them queue in synch with each other.

 

Lets say a premade queues first. Does the system wait for another 4 man premade to queue? Does it pass over that 4 man until it can get this kind of match? That doesn't seem fair. Does it hold off on solo queue pops until it can find an incomplete group made of premades to slot them into?

 

Any kind of matchmaking is gonna require a nice chunk of coding/testing work. If they're going to do it at all they might as well do it right and get more serious criteria than simply premade or not premade. When it does, that kind of matchmaking is going to need a bigger population to draw from in order to keep queue times down while also not simply turning into exactly what we have now.

[NoTomorrow]

 

5. It does not promote competitiveness: Rated WZ's are slow enough currently with little incentive to join them. We have a very casual PvP community who do not strive to be better players already. Personally I hate the idea of a bracket that would cater to mediocracy and gives players no incentive to improve or become more competitive.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Indovidual ranking is the only way to make this game playable. And it promote competitiveness. Look at starctaft, it has multiple divisions, ive never seen a game where that can match you so perfectly with an opponent of your own skill. Winn too often? Get promoted to next higher league, fight the Stronger guys.

Edited November 23, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[Doomsdaycomes]

Indovidual ranking is the only way to make this game playable. And it promote competitiveness. Look at starctaft, it has multiple divisions, ive never seen a game where that can match you so perfectly with an opponent of your own skill. Winn too often? Get promoted to next higher league, fight the Stronger guys.

 

Individual ranking is different from solo-only queue bracket.

 

That being said.... Yes, yes yes! That's (+ cross server queue) would solve so much!

[ArchangelLBC]

Individual ranking is different from solo-only queue bracket.

 

That being said.... Yes, yes yes! That's (+ cross server queue) would solve so much!

 

Seconded. A million times seconded. Throw a bone to the solo PUGers and add a modifier for if you are in a group based on the number of the players in there and their aggregate individual rating.

[LenrocNewDawn]

Indovidual ranking is the only way to make this game playable. And it promote competitiveness. Look at starctaft, it has multiple divisions, ive never seen a game where that can match you so perfectly with an opponent of your own skill. Winn too often? Get promoted to next higher league, fight the Stronger guys.

 

+1. And what Archangell says about group modifier (see I'll not troll you when you don't say stuff like " I play with my friends cause I'm not a retard"). I think a modifier is in order because grouped guys have the advantages of voice comunication and class selection (nothing wrong with that but it should be accounted for). And yes I know the real Universe is not about fair-play but I think we should strive for fair-play in a man made virtual Universe.

[Ashaari]

 

Right back at you. I hate when people say bullcrap like this while continuing to soldier on as if THEIR opinion is the undisputed correct opinion. If you want to completely ignore other people's perspective because their perspective is dumb that's fine, but have the moral courage to own it rather than trying to drop this worthless platitude. If you actually MEAN it then explain your best understanding of the other person's viewpoint, and then list why you disagree.

.

 

I,m sorry, you seem to either lack the ability to read, or comprehension skills. Try reading the thread in its entirety.

 

The "worthless platitude" was aimed a specific person who will not accept that other player's should not be forced to run with pre-mades whether they like it or not, and who cannot accept that there are, for some people, valid reasons not to do so.

 

I actually started to make a list of possible reasons, and at number 15 I decided I was wasting my time as their mind is too closed anyway.

 

I have accepted other peoples POV as valid from their perspective and have suggested alternative solutions to the issue as a compromise.

The only point on which I remained rigid is that change needs to happen and it needs to happen soon if the game is to thrive.

 

Please do some research into Warhammer online if you are not already aware of it. You will see direct parallels between the two PvP (RvR) systems - not surprising as they both come from EA, and WAR's developers were also used on SWTOR's development.

You will also find the same issues of lack of communication to their customer base.

WAR customers also wanted ranking and cross server but never got it and the game effectively died due to lack of population, and when I left was down to 1 USA server and 1 European server. They also had the same issues of Premades dominating WZ's which was a parial cause of the decline.

 

I see history repeating itself with SWTOR, I dont see any acceptance of PvP issues from BW and I doubt their committment to large changes, therefore I am pushing for relatively small changes that actually might be possible and whilst not ideal solutions, may hopefully improve the playing experience for some of the disaffected players.

 

You can post a reply if you wish, I wont be reading it as I have had enough of luddites and fantacists who resist change by insisting that the only solution is one that just isnt going to happen in time to prevent irreversable population bleed.

 

If BW do introduce a bug free working cross server matching system within the next year I will come back then to congratulate you on your insight and the accuracy of your predictions. I wouldnt hold your breath waiting for that to happen if I were you

[Smashbrother]

Without it, you're just gonna lower queue times without fixing anything. Also the system has to know what to do with 2 and 3 man groups.

 

Also I can easily conceive of some issues you'd run into with just your scheme as I understand it. What is the system's priority for the matchmaking. I know you said match premade against premade, but what if there are three premades out there, and none of them queue in synch with each other.

 

Lets say a premade queues first. Does the system wait for another 4 man premade to queue? Does it pass over that 4 man until it can get this kind of match? That doesn't seem fair. Does it hold off on solo queue pops until it can find an incomplete group made of premades to slot them into?

 

Any kind of matchmaking is gonna require a nice chunk of coding/testing work. If they're going to do it at all they might as well do it right and get more serious criteria than simply premade or not premade. When it does, that kind of matchmaking is going to need a bigger population to draw from in order to keep queue times down while also not simply turning into exactly what we have now.

 

I don't really care how the matchmaking is done, I just want some there.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I actually started to make a list of possible reasons, and at number 15 I decided I was wasting my time as their mind is too closed anyway.

 

Right... so lemme see if I got this straight. You got 15 items into a list... and then decided not to post it. *Rolls eyes* How am I suppose to have a debate about it if you're not even going to "gimme a chance." Please, gimme a list, point by point, nice, neat and concise so there can be no missunderstanding, so i may respond to it.

 

-.- and once again, no one is forced to do a certian thing to -play- but if you expect to get better or "more competitive" there are certian things you have to do (like keybinding instead of clicking).

 

*grumbles a lttle more.* I'm personally a little insulted, if you care. Call me close minded, when I support:

 

1.Matchmaking on a criteria, to lower the amount "PuGstomp" matches.

 

2. Gear changes to remove the gear gap. (before the 1.6 patch notes was announced, I can be quoted several times as saying "Yes, I think the gear gap is stupid.")

 

3. Guilds able to field 8-man groups stepping it up into ranked when possible. (I label anyone trying to get their double premade into a normal match as "Exploiters.")

 

4. Guilds and groups bringing new players in and gearing/training them.

 

Etc... but ya know, big bad ol' Doomsy. She's just a mean ol' cat that don't want them hard-working casuals to get any breaks.

[Zoiks]

I think the point that most of us who would like to see some kind of solo queue, whether it be for warzones or for what I would like to see, arenas, is that you cannot be competitive as a solo player against a premade assuming both are striving to be competitive. It doesn't matter if the entire team is made up of like minded solo players because they won't have the same out of game tools available, nor the experience of playing together all the time.

 

While it's not true of me, for some players it's near impossible to find groups or guilds that can cater to their erratic play schedule, and yes, some people actually HAVE to have an erratic schedule because of real life concerns. But it doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to compete effectively because of it.

 

Obviously I understand that it's unlikely to happen, and even if it could it's not necessarily the best use of development time currently. I also wouldn't want to see group pvp damaged to bring it about. But there is a valid need, and it would also go a long way toward making the pvp in this game more casual friendly without necessarily harming the hardcore element, which it could really use.

[Wainamoinen]

Give out a rating similar to that of ranked warzones. If we're concerned about people being elitist about it make it hidden. The rating would be determined after 10 warzones (before that set it to null), and then adjusted every match thereafter, and would be based off of how you perform (number of medals and their type), the average rating of the others in your WZ at the time, possible other factors (such as Gear Average attained). Premades would queue with a combined rating based on the average of the rating of everyone in the group and with possibly an adjustment for being a premade (bigger adjustments for bigger groups).

 

At this point the queue would endeavor to match people with similar ratings, and would go further afield until a full 8 was found so as not to negatively impact queue times.

 

+1 vote for this (and not only becaue it's pretty much exactly what I've said elsewhere , what a clever guy you are Archangel!)

 

On the group rating: I think you wouldn't even need an extra modifier. Grouping makes you more effective, those who group in premades get higher ranking. This means they will naturally be lifted out of competing against weaker solo-queuers, and pitted against other premades and the strongest soloers. Meanwhile, both new recruits and people who are rusty because they can only play casually don't face the PvP death squads.

 

On the offchance this is read by anyone with a line to devs, please do this. Really. Please. It'd be a great way to naturally increase the difficulty of PvP as people get into it without having to split queues or use arbitrary, gameable, gear or valour scores. You win more = you face harder opponents.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Wainamoinen

[Ashaari]

Okay as you asked so nicely, heres a few to be getting on with - ill post you some more on Monday when I am scheduled to be back at work if you can give satisfactory re-buffs to the first few as being unacceptable.

 

Reasons why people will not use voicecomms and therefore will not play in l33t pre-made groups:

 

1. Deafness or profound hearing difficulties - This effects 9 million poeple in the UK alone out of a population of approx 60 million - you can work out the potential worl numbers for yourself.

 

2. Cyber bullying or fear thereof - 18% of young Europeans have experinced online bullying in the last 3 months

 

3. Parental concern over child grooming

 

4. Muteness/mutism - I couldnt find any specifc statitistics - doesnt mean it doesnt exist

 

5. Speech impediments - can cause embarassment to sufferers meaning they do not wish to use voice comms

 

6. Age discrimination - some younger players feel they will be descriminated againt in terms of inclusion to Ops or Pvp if other players know that they are yound (normally less than 16 or 18.

 

7 Age discrimination - some older players feel they will not be accepted by the "pro" gaming community

 

8. Some female gamers feel intimidated by the misogynistic attitudes of same male, particularly younger male players.

 

9. Language issues - The world population is currently circa 7 billion. of this approx 1.1 billion speak English as a first or second language, approx 95 million speak German, French is a little unclear, but native french speakers are about 75 million, I dont know the statistics for French as a second language, but lets assume that there are a total of 1.5 billion people who speak either English/French or German. This means there are 5.5 billion who do not speak the most common in game languages - some will group together in language specific groups i.e. Spanish for instance, but for some smaller language zones with few player spread over sveral servers communication may very well be an issue.

 

Thats all for now - have a good weekend

[foxmob]

If BW do introduce a bug free working cross server matching system within the next year I will come back then to congratulate you on your insight and the accuracy of your predictions. I wouldnt hold your breath waiting for that to happen if I were you

 

^ this. I don't think a single person on this forum actually believes that x-server is bad for pvp (although it could be bad for one's ego). however...it's not going to happen. It's been something that even the devs have publicly wanted to do for almost a full year, and it is still nowhere in sight. how long did we learn about HK-51 before he finally dropped? how about the new WZ that still hasn't dropped? and here we are, end of November 2012, and they haven't even dropped a teaser about imminent x-server queues. it -- isn't -- happening.

 

personally, I think BW lacks command of the code/engine that they're using to underwrite the game, and that's the primary reason it hasn't happened. it's possible they really don't care, but since it was mentioned a long time ago, I find it hard to believe that they don't care.

 

conceptually and (I think) from a programming standpoint, it would be infinitely easier to implement the solo Qs option. I don't see how this would kill grp Qs since there are always multiple grps in reg Qs anyway, but I understand that it would make both pops slower. I can only speak for my own server when I say, I would hardly notice a thing. There are always multiple matches at lvl 50 with a mix of both solos and grps.

 

crow till the cows come home about what BW should do for pvp matchmaking. the bottom line (for me, obviously) is what are they capable of doing?

[filipesantana]

Indovidual ranking is the only way to make this game playable. And it promote competitiveness. Look at starctaft, it has multiple divisions, ive never seen a game where that can match you so perfectly with an opponent of your own skill. Winn too often? Get promoted to next higher league, fight the Stronger guys.

 

so you are comparing a game that is mostly played solo...to a team player pvp based game(swtor)?

 

sense...you make none

 

Next step would be asking for rating rewards/tittles from that "solo rating" right?...sigh

[ArchangelLBC]

I,m sorry, you seem to either lack the ability to read, or comprehension skills. Try reading the thread in its entirety.

 

The "worthless platitude" was aimed a specific person who will not accept that other player's should not be forced to run with pre-mades whether they like it or not, and who cannot accept that there are, for some people, valid reasons not to do so.

 

That's your opinion. You maintain that your opinion is the correct one whatever lip service you give to others opinions. You've also refused to take your own advice and really try to understand Doom's opinion. Also, technically people aren't being forced to group up whether they want to or not. This is what I mean when I say you refuse to engage in the empathy you recommend. Making a pre-made is available to anyone. If people are physically incapable of grouping then they are not playing the right genre (I'll address your list in a second, but those mostly seem a problem with using Voice Chat).

 

I actually started to make a list of possible reasons, and at number 15 I decided I was wasting my time as their mind is too closed anyway.

 

I have accepted other peoples POV as valid from their perspective and have suggested alternative solutions to the issue as a compromise.

The only point on which I remained rigid is that change needs to happen and it needs to happen soon if the game is to thrive.

 

Well here's the part where I'm not gonna read the rest of the over 100 pages of this thread. The compromise I keep seeing is a "solo-only queue", and there are issues with that that I feel affect everyone. Anything which threatens to lower the queue times is not a good thing. We all agree though that a change needs to happen. I'm not convinced there is a good solution without cross-server queues. You and others are of the opinion that this is a pipe dream, and I don't necessarily disagree with you. I've yet to see a solution which I personally think will help that doesn't include that. I apologize if I'm making you repeat yourself but what's your idea that fixes the problem (and the problem is way bigger than PuGs vs Premades) or even helps with the problem, without negatively impacting queue times.

 

I see history repeating itself with SWTOR, I dont see any acceptance of PvP issues from BW and I doubt their committment to large changes, therefore I am pushing for relatively small changes that actually might be possible and whilst not ideal solutions, may hopefully improve the playing experience for some of the disaffected players.

 

You can post a reply if you wish, I wont be reading it as I have had enough of luddites and fantacists who resist change by insisting that the only solution is one that just isnt going to happen in time to prevent irreversable population bleed.

 

If BW do introduce a bug free working cross server matching system within the next year I will come back then to congratulate you on your insight and the accuracy of your predictions. I wouldnt hold your breath waiting for that to happen if I were you

 

My policy with BW is to hope for the best and expect the worst (because I'm not about to hold my breath. We agree there). Nice to know that anyone who disagrees with you is a luddite and fantacist.

 

 

Reasons why people will not use voicecomms and therefore will not play in l33t pre-made groups:

 

1. Deafness or profound hearing difficulties - This effects 9 million poeple in the UK alone out of a population of approx 60 million - you can work out the potential worl numbers for yourself.

 

We should distinguish between being in a pre-made and using voice communication software. I know they're considered one and the same but this is not true. You'd be amazed the kind of teamwork you can get with people who can only communicate via in-game text chat. It's not ideal but it's certainly possible. Those players with this disability who are interested in these games have actually developed quite a lot of skill in this kind of teamwork specifically as a work around to their own handicap. I know. I've played with them. While voice communication makes things easier for those who can utilize them, a lot of the effectiveness of a premade comes from grouping with people you know you can trust.

 

2. Cyber bullying or fear thereof - 18% of young Europeans have experinced online bullying in the last 3 months

 

Seems as likely to happen just by stepping into an MMO environment. I'll need a more precise definition of "cyber bullying" cause I don't completely understand the specifics of your concern. I would think they'd have less of a chance being cyber-bullied by people they know and have some sort of rapport with over the people they meet in a 15 minute warzone who will insult them for the tiniest mistake. Granted, fears are not always rational, but one can hope that over the course of an MMO they will make some friends through the course of questing and whatnot. Otherwise, If they have THAT much a fear of cyber bullying they wouldn't set foot in the PVP arena at all. Don't suppose you have statistics on those who both fear cyber bullying enough to prevent them from wanting to join a premade, but which doesn't prevent them from stepping into level 50 PVP? I don't know how you'd get such statistics, but do you know anyone with this fear? Has this been something you've personally encountered? I'd appreciate anything more than a vague assertion that there are people who are afraid of cyber bullying.

 

If this is with regards to voice comms specifically, then again they should restrict their voice interaction to people they've made friends with. I'm only ever really in voice communications with my guild, and my guild is the only reason I'm still playing. Not everyone's experience I know. Help me understand if you don't mind.

 

3. Parental concern over child grooming

 

Well again we're looking at that middle ground where the parents are fine with them playing an MMO where they interact every day with people of various ages and whatnot, but not ok with them using voice communications. See comments on those who play while being hearing impaired.

 

4. Muteness/mutism - I couldnt find any specifc statitistics - doesnt mean it doesnt exist

 

Much as we tell people without a mic, often you don't need to speak. Just being able to listen is hugely helpful in the realm of voice communications.

 

5. Speech impediments - can cause embarassment to sufferers meaning they do not wish to use voice comms

 

See above

 

6. Age discrimination - some younger players feel they will be descriminated againt in terms of inclusion to Ops or Pvp if other players know that they are yound (normally less than 16 or 18.

 

Say they have no mic, and will just listen. If they want to do ops then they ARE going to be forced to group up with people they're going to have to talk to, at least via in game chat.

 

7 Age discrimination - some older players feel they will not be accepted by the "pro" gaming community

 

I think you'll find that older gamers are much less self conscious about such things. They've long since grown past the need to be accepted. Even if that's not the case though, you seem to imply that only people in the "pro" gaming community can form pre-mades or use voice communication. I guarantee those older gamers are interacting with others and proving themselves just fine. Also their age can be somewhat hard to determine over voice chat (at least for older gamers), so how I don't see how this specifically makes voice communication an issue.

 

8. Some female gamers feel intimidated by the misogynistic attitudes of same male, particularly younger male players.

 

 

 

9. Language issues - The world population is currently circa 7 billion. of this approx 1.1 billion speak English as a first or second language, approx 95 million speak German, French is a little unclear, but native french speakers are about 75 million, I dont know the statistics for French as a second language, but lets assume that there are a total of 1.5 billion people who speak either English/French or German. This means there are 5.5 billion who do not speak the most common in game languages - some will group together in language specific groups i.e. Spanish for instance, but for some smaller language zones with few player spread over sveral servers communication may very well be an issue.

 

Thats all for now - have a good weekend

 

It's an MMO and being able to communicate effectively somehow is pretty much a prerequisite for doing anything in this game but solo PVE dailies. Language issue IS a valid concern, but again it's one that is either able to be overcome via text communication or it can't. If it can be, either by finding a group of gamers who share a common language, or by learning enough of the language to get by, they can form a premade. If they can't then they will ALWAYS be handicapped in warzones, even if a pure PuG vs PuG. They'll always be a liability. That's harsh, I know, but they've stepped into an arena where success is predicated on being able to communicate. Competition at a high level requires it, and while you may say that that isn't what normals are about, people still tend to play to win. If they weren't then this whole thread would be a non-issue.

 

 

^ this. I don't think a single person on this forum actually believes that x-server is bad for pvp (although it could be bad for one's ego). however...it's not going to happen. It's been something that even the devs have publicly wanted to do for almost a full year, and it is still nowhere in sight. how long did we learn about HK-51 before he finally dropped? how about the new WZ that still hasn't dropped? and here we are, end of November 2012, and they haven't even dropped a teaser about imminent x-server queues. it -- isn't -- happening.

 

personally, I think BW lacks command of the code/engine that they're using to underwrite the game, and that's the primary reason it hasn't happened. it's possible they really don't care, but since it was mentioned a long time ago, I find it hard to believe that they don't care.

 

conceptually and (I think) from a programming standpoint, it would be infinitely easier to implement the solo Qs option. I don't see how this would kill grp Qs since there are always multiple grps in reg Qs anyway, but I understand that it would make both pops slower. I can only speak for my own server when I say, I would hardly notice a thing. There are always multiple matches at lvl 50 with a mix of both solos and grps.

 

crow till the cows come home about what BW should do for pvp matchmaking. the bottom line (for me, obviously) is what are they capable of doing?

 

Personally, I think they got into this mess by doing what seemed easier from the programming standpoint. And there are definite issues with the group queue. What do you do with groups of 3 as just an example?

 

I personally think the impact on queue times would be worse than some of the supporters think. I agree there needs to be a chance. I just don't think solo queues will really help. The gear disparity will still be there, the skill disparity will still be there, and longer queue times are just never to be encouraged.

 

I concede that cross server queues are just flat out unlikely because of technical issues. If I had a suggestion for BW it would be to work on this technical issue ASAP. In the meantime, let's assume that there is a solution that is possible without cross server queues. Anyone got any ideas? No one has made a satisfactory argument for why a solo only queue would not cause more problems than it solves. I propose we table this idea for now in an attempt to come up with a better idea, and in the meantime I'll drop my canned response of "they need to do cross server queues".

 

so you are comparing a game that is mostly played solo...to a team player pvp based game(swtor)?

 

sense...you make none

 

Next step would be asking for rating rewards/tittles from that "solo rating" right?...sigh

 

If it helps the system build teams at random that are more likely to compete on a somewhat even footing then yes I am all for that.