Problems with the solo queue idea....

[Pvtcarnage]

Probably true in that it won't change- though I'd say more because BW devs have been consistantly making poor decisions that have caused the pvp population to dwindle from a point where they were saying 'we are surprised that so many people are pvping and enjoy it' to a point where, even with most of the servers merged, queues are worse now than they were back when there were ten times as many servers.

 

 

 

Queue times wouldn't be effected for casuals, actually they might improve. It's not even something up for debate that solo queues will always do better. Now, it won't give the kind of reduction we might have seen if this had come pre-1.2 when we actually had a playerbase. But, casuals are much more likely to play when they have a chance of winning- and casuals are both a majority of the players, and almost all of the f2p who are potential new customers.

 

The queues that would increase would be the grouped pvp queues, since you would lose the incentive of having a premade (stomping pugs) and there are few people who have the time to put into getting premades- most people just want to jump in and play.

 

 

 

You aren't near as likely at all. If there's a 6 man premade for example- there's 10 slots in that match for casuals. 2 are for the premade team, 8 for the other team. So in that matter, you have only a 20% chance of being put on the premade team- it goes up with smaller premades and of course down with larger ones.

 

Also, even if we were to consider that the pugs and premades have the same caliber of players available to them- the organization alone puts premades at a much higher chance to win. Then, add to that most premades are serious enough about the game to make a premade, on average they will be better caliber players- and, premades that see a lot of success are going to be more likely to stay premades than ones who suck.

 

Having a premade would only decrease that team's chances of proper composition- which in turn would actually mean the opposite of what you just said- it would decrease competitiveness because on average the premade would have a better composition percentage since their team is hand picked.

 

 

 

There are considerably more bad pugs than there are bad premades. Of course there's bad premades out there, the idea of them all being godlike is a ridiculous exaggeration for effect- much like what you're doing is just the same in trying to portray them almost as being a disadvantage against a pug, which is simply absurd.

 

 

 

First off- ranked WZ are what is competitive. If most players want normal WZ to be there for fun over competition- maybe it's time to realize this is a GAME, not a professional sport. The fact that there's two WZ types and one is specifically catered towards competitive players should be a fog horn to everyone that the other one is not. Rated WZ are slow, yes, because there's a casual community yes- but that's who is playing the game, and maybe it is time for BW to start trying to make subs/money off of the type of players who are/would play this game rather than catering to an exclusive group of competitives who aren't playing this game anyway.

 

This game has a very casual oriented pve system, where most of the game can be enjoyed by everyone of all skill and time levels. Now, premades is absolutely not the main culprit of driving casuals away- lack of balance and high amount of CC are both much bigger, and the absurd amount of time it takes (100s of hours, not to mention on f2p about 8 months for BM and 30ish for WH) to gear up with massive stat differences between recruit and fully min/maxed WH- would be likely the largest deterrent.

 

Any change though that will increase the playerbase is a good one.

 

Now, you're also flip flopping here. You've spent the rest of your post trying to deflect how much premades stomp pugs and trying to downplay their advantages- yet now you are trying to say because of them the normal queue is competitive, and without them it'd be mediocre and encourage players to be bad because there's no challenge.

 

Regardless- that isn't true anyway. People do not get better by facing a task that either is impossible for them, or looks impossible to them. And while beating a premade as a pug is absolutely possible- it has the twofold effect of more often than not being very challenging (depending on your team and theirs, possibly impossible since one player can only make up for teammate deficiencies so much), and also that it has a psyche effect of looking impossible- how many people have been in matches where your team sees their team is made of 'that awesome pvp guild' and just quit?

 

Tasks that are considerably harder than your ability to complete will almost always discourage you from continuing to try, It's a fact that people are highly unlikely to learn from attempting something very difficult and failing repeatedly. People learn best and are best motivated when they are faced with a challenge that is slightly above what they know they can already achieve. Those challenges are going to be much more available against players who are on par with you- they won't be against teams that utterly dominate you. That's psychology 101.

 

BW has to start trying to cater to the players who will play the game, or this f2p revival will be very short lived. Ultimately- we've tried it with the current system, it failed. Maybe it was the balance, or the gear, etc... that was the main cause- but it can't be disputed that casuals dislike premades being in their normal WZs. BW needs to move forward- but as you said in point one, they seem to be just as stuck on the idea that WZ are fine as they are despite this forum being one of the most active and from the dwindling sub numbers, most accurate when it came to telling BW what will happen to this game if they continued to utterly ignore their customers.

 

So many assumptions and flat out horse malarkey.......

Short version = The game will fail if BW does not cater to casuals.

 

Sorry but I'm pretty sure the game is failing due to lack of content and features other MMO's have. PvP on my PvE server has been great and the only loss I have noticed is all the big PvE guilds disappearing. But since BW does not share players that left and their reasons we are all guessing and anyone claiming otherwise is a fool.

 

Oh and 100's of hours for BM? Talk about the things you know because when you make stuff up it tends to make you look stupid.

[UGLYMRJ]

So many assumptions and flat out horse malarkey.......

Short version = The game will fail if BW does not cater to casuals.

 

Sorry but I'm pretty sure the game is failing due to lack of content and features other MMO's have. PvP on my PvE server has been great and the only loss I have noticed is all the big PvE guilds disappearing. But since BW does not share players that left and their reasons we are all guessing and anyone claiming otherwise is a fool.

 

Oh and 100's of hours for BM? Talk about the things you know because when you make stuff up it tends to make you look stupid.

 

I'm glad someone responded... the wall of text was more than I wanted to respond to and I think you about summed it up right here where I would have dragged it out.

 

So many assumptions and flat out horse malarkey.......

[Pvtcarnage]

I'm glad someone responded... the wall of text was more than I wanted to respond to and I think you about summed it up right here where I would have dragged it out.

 

Thanks man, there was way to much horse manure to call out one at a time lol

 

PS: We need to find a way to bribe/injure Peterson in the next few weeks. That dude scares me

Edited November 20, 2012 by Pvtcarnage

[UGLYMRJ]

Thanks man, there was way to much horse manure to call out one at a time lol

 

PS: We need to find a way to bribe/injure Peterson in the next few weeks. That dude scares me

 

LOL... I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I hate the Vikings... and Peterson being healthy is bad for my team. However... he's getting me a lot of points in my fantasy league and there's a nice chunk of cash on the line.

Edited November 20, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[Pvtcarnage]

LOL... I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I hate the Vikings... and Peterson being healthy is bad for my team. However... he's getting me a lot of points in my fantasy league and there's a nice chunk of cash on the line.

 

Just remember were your loyalty lies, and it better not be money

[UGLYMRJ]

Just remember were your loyalty lies, and it better not be money

 

HAHAHAHAHA! You do have a point...

[SlimsPicken]

This is going to start off a little off-topic, but bear with me.

 

I think the main issue in the gear gap is the fact that the weekly quest rewards you only for wins...meaning the people in full WH+ who dont even need the comms are preventing those they beat from getting anything close to competitive amount of comms per match, and also prevent them from winning, and therefore getting their weekly comms.

 

Losing isnt as bad when you actually get some benefit from it- it takes 2 to tango...one guy always wins, one guy always loses in competition, but the problem here is losing does nothing to advance you compared to winning.

 

And so the gear gap grows, and so people complain about losing, and so people complain about premades making them lose.

 

And in the losing, they gain no ground, get no real chance at gear ups, and remain losers.

Its not a premade issue vs. solo queue issue at all when you get right down to the crux of it- people are bummed out that they hit 50, and if they arent in a good guild have no real chance to ever catch up or be competitive in a reasonable amount of time.

 

Losing and getting so little in return makes it seem like all they are destined for is cannon fodder. forever.

 

So they complain. They complain about the premades that made them lose... when in reality its not the losing, or the premades that they miss or are bummed about- its the lack of fun, and lack of any promise of fun in the future because they cannot equalize the playing field.

 

so all this talk of solo queues etc. is pointless under the current system. What needs to change is the chance for parity in gear. Once gear is equally distributed, we can get back to the crying about premades rolling people. Because at that point, you can call a bad a bad.

 

So, I hate to derail this topic, but I really do believe gear/gear rewards and not group composition is at the heart of this issue.

 

All that being said, the premades will still crush the unprepared, but I doubt there would be 1/10th of the amount of crying on the forums about it (from either side- winners or losers) if the playing field was more level due to rewards being awarded more fairly for winning and losing.

 

Winning is good, but its also its own reward. It doesnt need to be double the comms, and the only way to finish a weekly mission - that of course...awards more comms...which losers need more than winners. And so the gap grows wider, and theres very little chance for a loser to bridge the gap into being a winner.

[UGLYMRJ]

This is going to start off a little off-topic, but bear with me.

 

 

I think there are so many variables that this could go on and on but you bring up a good point. It does make going up against pre-mades tougher. But then again, the pre-mades that are face rolling people... could likely do it in recruit gear as well. Like I said though.. a ton of variables, gear, skill, communication, AC's, composition, etc.

 

Again though... I see your point.

 

Personally I feel like grouping up as intended with guildies and friends solves this problem too tho. What we try to do is limit the amount of under geared players in our group. Anything that increases the chances to win and still helps a guildie get coms quicker.

[fungihoujo]

So many assumptions and flat out horse malarkey.......

Short version = The game will fail if BW does not cater to casuals.

 

Sorry but I'm pretty sure the game is failing due to lack of content and features other MMO's have. PvP on my PvE server has been great and the only loss I have noticed is all the big PvE guilds disappearing. But since BW does not share players that left and their reasons we are all guessing and anyone claiming otherwise is a fool.

 

Oh and 100's of hours for BM? Talk about the things you know because when you make stuff up it tends to make you look stupid.

 

Uh, 100s of hours to gear up- I obviously mean WH since that's what geared up means. I pointed out that a f2p will spend 8 months just to get BM, and about 2 1/2 years to get WH since that's what the actual math clearly points out- I can understand your difficulty in understanding that, since you biodrones seem to be impervious to things like math and fact. Only one looking stupid is the one still defending failed pvp strategies that drove the pvp side of this game into the ground, and even after six months of steady and meteoric fall in our pvp subscriber base is STILL blindly supporting a pvp system like this based on only 'well, my server I have fun pvping' while completely ignoring everything outside your little bubble.

 

It's not 'this game will fail' anymore- this game HAS failed, this game is nowhere near where anyone was hoping, it's nearing the point where they said they would simply be able to break even, and in case you didn't just notice it went f2p in near record time because of the drop in subs.

 

What lack of content and features are you talking about anyway? The levelling aspect is above the mindless grinding without purpose of most mmos. There's mounts, many abilities, very different classes, a large number of quests, dailies, multiple gear sets, many operations and flashpoints with multiple difficulties. You come off as someone who isn't even a pvper if the only thing you've noticed is pve guilds missing- pvp guilds and sorcs/mercs fled en masse after patch 1.2, and the operations/flashpoints complaints at that time were relatively minor- whereas the pvp forums absolutely exploded.

 

It's laughable that you honestly are trying to say only BW can tell you truly why people have left. Really? Well then, you have nothing to worry about since f2p has brought in 5 million new customers since their reasoning was people quit and didn't try the game because they didn't want to pay a sub.

 

Fascinating that you will attack what I've said as assumption and then proudly defend the OP's list of nothing but assumptions like it's god's word, meanwhile throwing in multiple attacks like calling me stupid- while you do not actually attempt to disprove the things I've said.

[UGLYMRJ]

while you do not actually attempt to disprove the things I've said.

 

I think the biggest reason I normally don't read your posts is you often end them with things like this but you are just talking a lot and still haven't really said anything.

 

You're normally completely off topic. I actually read that last post and it offers nothing to the topic at hand. A quick summary is you think there's plenty of content and the game is failing to meet expectations. Again... you said a lot without saying anything.

 

What does any of what you said have to do with a solo queue? I agree.. changes COULD be good... I just disagree with the idea of a solo queue. In my opinion it will not solve any of the issues in the game and only create new ones.

 

I'd be more than happy to give you the argument you're looking for... but first it would have to be on topic.

 

There may have been points that are on topic but most of the wall of text is not. Try leaving out the rambling that has nothing to do with the topic and you may get more bites on whatever it is you're trying to feed us.

Edited November 20, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[fungihoujo]

I think the biggest reason I normally don't read your posts is you often end them with things like this but you are just talking a lot and still haven't really said anything.

 

You're normally completely off topic. I actually read that last post and it offers nothing to the topic at hand. A quick summary is you think there's plenty of content and the game is failing to meet expectations. Again... you said a lot without saying anything.

 

What does any of what you said have to do with a solo queue? I agree.. changes COULD be good... I just disagree with the idea of a solo queue. In my opinion it will not solve any of the issues in the game and only create new ones.

 

I'd be more than happy to give you the argument you're looking for... but first it would have to be on topic.

 

Are you kidding me? I point for point disputed every one of your main points for why you don't want solo queues, with reasons why solo queues are a good idea.

 

If you think I'm wrong then so be it- but saying 'you are off topic' when I was point for point directly answering your points in the OP makes it clear you either didn't read it, or you just don't have an answer.

 

If you don't have an answer, just say it. If you simply don't want to read anything that disagrees with you- just say it. Don't give this BS that I'm off topic, and then go ahead and support someone who really only answered me by flinging insults.

[SpaniardInfinity]

I agree with the idea of promoting community. I am opposed to preventing guilds & friends from playing together (or at least making it more difficult). However, I am also opposed to forcing hardcore solo players to group or shop for a guild.

 

I have floated this idea before, but I think a neat solution would be a Premade Finder. When you are grouped before & after a WZ (as in a guild premade), you have the opportunity to communicate your preferences, do after-action reviews, and (perhaps most important) teach newer or less-PVP-experienced players some of the strategies or tactics they might not be familiar with.

 

Right now, you see a lot of ALL CAPS tutorials in the heat of a WZ, and far too many conflicting strategies ("2 snow, 6 mid" .... "NO we should do 3 snow and 5 grass."... "NO....") being hashed out while less experienced PUGers run one-at-a-time into a mob of the opposing faction.

 

Granted, some premades are bad, but over time they have the opportunity to learn to work together and improve as a team. A PUG never has this opportunity.

 

It something to consider. The only question is whether or not the groupfinder automatically seeks a PvE-like composition (2 healers, 2 tanks, 4 dps) or if it merely groups eight people together regardless of role.

 

I know it's an idea that some people shiver just to think of, but wouldn't it be marvelous just to add voice chat in warzones? Give each player a personal mute UI allowing you to mute whoever who don't want to deal with. It's something that is very common in shooters and works quite effectively. Yeah, you'll have your voice spammers but that's what mute is for. And anyone on your ignore list is automatically muted.

Edited November 20, 2012 by SpaniardInfinity

[UGLYMRJ]

Are you kidding me? I point for point disputed every one of your main points for why you don't want solo queues, with reasons why solo queues are a good idea.

 

If you think I'm wrong then so be it- but saying 'you are off topic' when I was point for point directly answering your points in the OP makes it clear you either didn't read it, or you just don't have an answer.

 

If you don't have an answer, just say it. If you simply don't want to read anything that disagrees with you- just say it. Don't give this BS that I'm off topic, and then go ahead and support someone who really only answered me by flinging insults.

 

I already said previously I didn't read it... Skimmed through it. I've actually got a free minute at work so let me find your points in all that text and give you that argument you're looking for.

 

Honestly, your argumentative style vs a friendly debate gets tiresome. You're come off as very narrow minded and arguing with you is much like arguing with Bill O'Reilly. But I'll bite... just because I have the time. One sec.

[Aluvi]

I have an idea.

 

Uncap valor. Let people PvP at low lvls to their hearts content to level up, and let them accumulate enough valor that if they want to at 50, they can buy at least full BM. This will let those that want to PvP exclusively earn it as they level up.

[Jadescythe]

Probably true in that it won't change- though I'd say more because BW devs have been consistantly making poor decisions that have caused the pvp population to dwindle from a point where they were saying 'we are surprised that so many people are pvping and enjoy it' to a point where, even with most of the servers merged, queues are worse now than they were back when there were ten times as many servers.

 

 

 

Queue times wouldn't be effected for casuals, actually they might improve. It's not even something up for debate that solo queues will always do better. Now, it won't give the kind of reduction we might have seen if this had come pre-1.2 when we actually had a playerbase. But, casuals are much more likely to play when they have a chance of winning- and casuals are both a majority of the players, and almost all of the f2p who are potential new customers.

 

In what world are casuals not allowed to group? Seriously, this is the biggest misconecption that is out there. Not all groups are hardcore players and not all solo queuers are casuals. There is a mix of both and separating the queues does nothing but increase the queue times for everyone.

 

The queues that would increase would be the grouped pvp queues, since you would lose the incentive of having a premade (stomping pugs) and there are few people who have the time to put into getting premades- most people just want to jump in and play.

 

True, so why should anyone who has a friend on have to wait for pops (possibly indefinitely if you have 3 in your group) while anyone else can jump in the solo queue and be playing twice as fast? Your statement is basically advocating individual play by saying, "good, now people won't group because it takes too long". Grouping in an MMO is working as intended and should be encouraged, not discouraged.

 

You aren't near as likely at all. If there's a 6 man premade for example- there's 10 slots in that match for casuals. 2 are for the premade team, 8 for the other team. So in that matter, you have only a 20% chance of being put on the premade team- it goes up with smaller premades and of course down with larger ones.

 

Your example clearly skews the numbers in your favor by including a premade group larger than the max size for a single group. Your chances of being placed in a group with a premade of 2-4 players is MORE likely than ending up with 7 complete random players. I don't want to do the math, but since there is only one group scenario in which you have no grouped players on your side, it certainly can't be the most likely group makeup.

 

Also, even if we were to consider that the pugs and premades have the same caliber of players available to them- the organization alone puts premades at a much higher chance to win. Then, add to that most premades are serious enough about the game to make a premade, on average they will be better caliber players- and, premades that see a lot of success are going to be more likely to stay premades than ones who suck.

 

Regardless of skill, I would rather group with people I know than people I don't. I have friends that are terrible at PVP, but I don't ignore them when they want to join.

 

Having a premade would only decrease that team's chances of proper composition- which in turn would actually mean the opposite of what you just said- it would decrease competitiveness because on average the premade would have a better composition percentage since their team is hand picked.

 

Perhaps I'm the only one, but when I see groups of guildies on the other side, I haven't noticed that they are all running tank, healer, 2 dps. While it is something that COULD be done, I don't think it's being done the majority of the time or even close to the majority of the time. It's mostly people grouping with whoever they know that's on.

 

There are considerably more bad pugs than there are bad premades. Of course there's bad premades out there, the idea of them all being godlike is a ridiculous exaggeration for effect- much like what you're doing is just the same in trying to portray them almost as being a disadvantage against a pug, which is simply absurd.

 

I don't think the point was to say that premades are at a disadvantage, simply to state that most people group because they enjoy playing with the people they know. Whether they're good or bad, they're doing it for fun, not to faceroll people. And more often than not, if many solo queue advocates were as good as they claim, they would beat the stuffing out of these teams.

 

First off- ranked WZ are what is competitive. If most players want normal WZ to be there for fun over competition- maybe it's time to realize this is a GAME, not a professional sport. The fact that there's two WZ types and one is specifically catered towards competitive players should be a fog horn to everyone that the other one is not. Rated WZ are slow, yes, because there's a casual community yes- but that's who is playing the game, and maybe it is time for BW to start trying to make subs/money off of the type of players who are/would play this game rather than catering to an exclusive group of competitives who aren't playing this game anyway.

 

Yes, regular warzones are for fun and some people take advantage of that to clearly stack the odds in their favor. I agree that some of those matches get fairly one sided. I don't think that allowing group queuing is the cause for this. It's a mix of unskilled, undergeared, inexperienced players on one side against their opposites. Having a solo queue won't prevent this from happening as it is still a completely random setup. I'm not saying that people can't take advantage of the system, only that MOST people queuing as a group are not out to make the game worse, but to make the game more enjoyable to play.

 

This game has a very casual oriented pve system, where most of the game can be enjoyed by everyone of all skill and time levels. Now, premades is absolutely not the main culprit of driving casuals away- lack of balance and high amount of CC are both much bigger, and the absurd amount of time it takes (100s of hours, not to mention on f2p about 8 months for BM and 30ish for WH) to gear up with massive stat differences between recruit and fully min/maxed WH- would be likely the largest deterrent.

 

As you stated, a solo queue would not resolve this situation.

 

Any change though that will increase the playerbase is a good one.

 

Now, you're also flip flopping here. You've spent the rest of your post trying to deflect how much premades stomp pugs and trying to downplay their advantages- yet now you are trying to say because of them the normal queue is competitive, and without them it'd be mediocre and encourage players to be bad because there's no challenge.

 

This is more of a mindset. When you are grouped with some people you know, you tend to play more objectively and are more likely to assist those players. I'm not saying it is right to do, but it is how people actually think. Certainly not all, but many people are focused more on themselves while queuing solo because they don't have anyone else that they know they can rely on. It makes objective based play less likely and encourages for more DPS classes to show up and far fewer people willing to defend objectives.

 

Regardless- that isn't true anyway. People do not get better by facing a task that either is impossible for them, or looks impossible to them. And while beating a premade as a pug is absolutely possible- it has the twofold effect of more often than not being very challenging (depending on your team and theirs, possibly impossible since one player can only make up for teammate deficiencies so much), and also that it has a psyche effect of looking impossible- how many people have been in matches where your team sees their team is made of 'that awesome pvp guild' and just quit?

 

A solo queue will still not put the challenge at an equal level to what they player should be facing, it would simply get them used to a style of play that is geared more towards individual play rather than team play. We will see a significant increase in the nerf X class thread because they are thinking of balance only from a 1v1 perspective since that is the way they have seen the game played.

 

Tasks that are considerably harder than your ability to complete will almost always discourage you from continuing to try, It's a fact that people are highly unlikely to learn from attempting something very difficult and failing repeatedly. People learn best and are best motivated when they are faced with a challenge that is slightly above what they know they can already achieve. Those challenges are going to be much more available against players who are on par with you- they won't be against teams that utterly dominate you. That's psychology 101.

 

BW has to start trying to cater to the players who will play the game, or this f2p revival will be very short lived. Ultimately- we've tried it with the current system, it failed. Maybe it was the balance, or the gear, etc... that was the main cause- but it can't be disputed that casuals dislike premades being in their normal WZs. BW needs to move forward- but as you said in point one, they seem to be just as stuck on the idea that WZ are fine as they are despite this forum being one of the most active and from the dwindling sub numbers, most accurate when it came to telling BW what will happen to this game if they continued to utterly ignore their customers.

 

I agree with your last point that something does need to change for casual players, however allowing them to queue by themselves all the time is not that solution (mostly because not all casual players queue solo). It will only be fixed when players are playing against similarly rated players. A recruit bracket could resolve the gear imbalance, but will still have the skill imbalance for new people. It's going to have to be a rating system and I'm not sure there is a good way to implement this without rewarding bad players on good teams and penalizing good players on bad teams.

 

*** I did this fairly quickly on my way out the door from work, so if something doesn't make sense that's why

[UGLYMRJ]

Probably true in that it won't change- though I'd say more because BW devs have been consistantly making poor decisions that have caused the pvp population to dwindle from a point where they were saying 'we are surprised that so many people are pvping and enjoy it' to a point where, even with most of the servers merged, queues are worse now than they were back when there were ten times as many servers.

Taking shots at devs and emphasizing their poor decisions... really not directly reflective of the point at hand. My original point is that it goes against everything the devs set out to do with this game and against the idea of community. You're counter point is the devs make lousy decisions. While I agree... it drifts away a bit in your rant.

 

 

Queue times wouldn't be effected for casuals, actually they might improve. It's not even something up for debate that solo queues will always do better. Now, it won't give the kind of reduction we might have seen if this had come pre-1.2 when we actually had a playerbase. But, casuals are much more likely to play when they have a chance of winning- and casuals are both a majority of the players, and almost all of the f2p who are potential new customers.

While you're right about one thing... maybe casuals would be queuing more... here's the problem. Casuals ARE NOT the long term base of MMO's. Hence the word "casuals"... they aren't in it for the long haul. Catering to them simply does not sound like a good business plan.

 

The queues that would increase would be the grouped pvp queues, since you would lose the incentive of having a premade (stomping pugs) and there are few people who have the time to put into getting premades- most people just want to jump in and play.

No, queues would decrease because of the numbers... if you have a group of 3 and a group of 4 queuing who fills that last spot? If you have 3 groups of 3 queuing, how do they get into a match? The queues would take MUCH longer because of the magic number 8 that everything has to reach in the end. And then what if someone disconnects? How do you fill that spot? The number game can go on and on but I hope you see my point.

 

You aren't near as likely at all. If there's a 6 man premade for example- there's 10 slots in that match for casuals. 2 are for the premade team, 8 for the other team. So in that matter, you have only a 20% chance of being put on the premade team- it goes up with smaller premades and of course down with larger ones.

We try to get our pre-mades together fairly often when there is only 5-7 of us or bad group composition. I'd say we end up in the same war zone 1/10 times and on the same team 1/20 times. So it's most likely a 4 man pre-made unless ppl are really leaving until they're teamed up and that's just kinda sad. with 4 man pre-mades your odds are just as likely to end up on a pre-made at any given time if you are solo queuing. You know... some matches have pre-mades on both sides in one game. I've seen it happen.

 

Also, even if we were to consider that the pugs and premades have the same caliber of players available to them- the organization alone puts premades at a much higher chance to win. Then, add to that most premades are serious enough about the game to make a premade, on average they will be better caliber players- and, premades that see a lot of success are going to be more likely to stay premades than ones who suck.

They don't.... most good players join guilds. because they're smart enough to know it increases their chances on winning. The caliber of player is far from equal.

 

Having a premade would only decrease that team's chances of proper composition- which in turn would actually mean the opposite of what you just said- it would decrease competitiveness because on average the premade would have a better composition percentage since their team is hand picked.

This is why I have a hard time even reading your posts... besides that they are long, drawn out and poorly separated.

 

Did you just say that a pre-made with proper 4 man composition has LESS of a chance to end up with better team composition?

 

I'm probably not understanding you correctly... at least I hope not. But yeah... when I said I didn't read it... this is kinda why. No offense intended.

 

 

 

There are considerably more bad pugs than there are bad premades. Of course there's bad premades out there, the idea of them all being godlike is a ridiculous exaggeration for effect- much like what you're doing is just the same in trying to portray them almost as being a disadvantage against a pug, which is simply absurd.

True... because like I said earlier... most good players join guilds and groups for obvious reasons.

 

Being at a disadvantage as a pug though? When did I even come close to implying that? That's a ridiculous statement.

 

Bunch of stuff I stopped reading... not sure where it was going.

 

Any change though that will increase the playerbase is a good one.

One thing I agree on... however my point is that a solo queue will not bring more subs. It will not promote community. A change could be good. Not this one.

 

Now, you're also flip flopping here. You've spent the rest of your post trying to deflect how much premades stomp pugs and trying to downplay their advantages- yet now you are trying to say because of them the normal queue is competitive, and without them it'd be mediocre and encourage players to be bad because there's no challenge.

False... I only said that not all pre-mades are good pre-mades. And my point is I would like to see more people improve game play and form more pre-mades... and eventuall turn those pre-mades in rated teams, etc. My ideas will always promote competitiveness because I enjoy competition. You don't have to agree with it... it's just my opinion and preference. I simply am against anything that caters to casual game play and I feel that if people want to win more... which let's not kid ourselves... this is basically what people are complaining about. That they should have to take the steps the rest of us did, practice, guild, grind, group = profit.

 

Regardless- that isn't true anyway. People do not get better by facing a task that either is impossible for them, or looks impossible to them. And while beating a premade as a pug is absolutely possible- it has the twofold effect of more often than not being very challenging (depending on your team and theirs, possibly impossible since one player can only make up for teammate deficiencies so much), and also that it has a psyche effect of looking impossible- how many people have been in matches where your team sees their team is made of 'that awesome pvp guild' and just quit?

 

People get better by facing challenges. Not being handed an easy button and given no incentive to improve.

 

When I first joined this game and I was getting rolled. You know what went through my head?

 

"I can't wait to get good enough to roll that bastard that just beat me down"

^This is the mentality I would like to see more of"

 

More stuff that drifts off...

 

BW has to start trying to cater to the players who will play the game, or this f2p revival will be very short lived. Ultimately- we've tried it with the current system, it failed. Maybe it was the balance, or the gear, etc... that was the main cause- but it can't be disputed that casuals dislike premades being in their normal WZs. BW needs to move forward- but as you said in point one, they seem to be just as stuck on the idea that WZ are fine as they are despite this forum being one of the most active and from the dwindling sub numbers, most accurate when it came to telling BW what will happen to this game if they continued to utterly ignore their customers

If you mean cater to the casual players... I would hate to see that happen. First the casuals are not going to be here for the long haul and it would shorten the games life expectancy. Cater to the competitive players and at least you have a long term subscription base that will stick around for years instead of months.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now seriously... break it down a bit next time. It seriously took me like 20 minutes just to reply. Sometimes less is more... especially if you want someone to read it and reply. When it's that long and jumbled it's hard to match it up with what I was saying. More effort than it's worth noemally... I mean seriously. It's a gaming forum. I lvoe teh debate and all but replying to walls of text like that.... well I'd rather be working.

[UGLYMRJ]

Holy mother of god look how long those last 2 replies are.... you see my point yet?

 

Your posts are as hard to read and unnecessarily long as your name.

[Zoiks]

This is just a list of problems I see with the idea and of course just my opinion. Now let's get this started so we can have a mature and friendly debate. No... just kidding... we all know that won't happen.

 

1. It will never happen: The developers have stated time and time again that they want to promote community and team work. This idea completely goes against that idea.

 

You're probably right that they won't do it. But adding a solo only queue wouldn't have any impact on community or teamwork. As far as community goes, you could still make friends and queue in the group queue, which presumably the current queue regular wz queue would become or at least the ranked wz queue. And you could still work as a team even while solo queued.

 

2. Populations: Even if it did happen, I don't believe most servers have a strong enough population to support the idea without drastically affecting queue times. Populations are better now with the F2P players, but most of those players will not hit 50 for a few weeks, we will not see many of them in WZ's with the limited amount of matches they get and we'll likely see another population drop when the novelty wears off.

 

This would be a problem, only slightly for the solo queue but to a very large degree for the group queue, both because there would be a lack of groups queueing and because the way the current queue systems work the game would pretty much crap itself trying to form a wz whenever an odd sized group queued. Cross server queues would fix the former, and with a competently programmed queue the latter would also be fixed.

 

3. It will not help the problem: Most of the supporters of the solo queue idea want it because they're tired of being "rolled" by pre-mades. This idea won't help that. If you are solo queuing, you are near as likely to have a pre-made on your team as you to be up against one. Besides that... it decreases both teams chances of having anything close to proper team composition. Which would just in turn create more imbalance within each match.

 

This is only true if your server's faction population that queues is in the <20 neighborhood, in which case pvp is pretty much already dead on your server and faction balance is hosed regardless. Also premades don't do much for balancing team roles, even assuming all premades have 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps (which the vast majority of premades don't) the odds are not in your favor that you won't be matched with 4 more dps anyway.

 

A solo queue could also greatly simplify the implementation of role requirements for group matching.

 

4. Not all pre-mades are good: There are several guilds on just my server alone that make me cringe when we're teamed with them. The idea that all pre-mades are composed of face rolling gods is ridiculous. There are probably more bad pre-mades than good ones.

 

Cooperative play dominates uncooperative play in mmo pvp, this mmo and any other. And a premade that doesn't cooperate is effectively a pug. A solo queue actually would address this somewhat by greatly reducing the odds that you're going to end up in a team with someone you're in vent with, or have even played with consistently enough to have a "rhythm". This puts everyone on equal footing at least.

 

5. It does not promote competitiveness: Rated WZ's are slow enough currently with little incentive to join them. We have a very casual PvP community who do not strive to be better players already. Personally I hate the idea of a bracket that would cater to mediocracy and gives players no incentive to improve or become more competitive.

 

You don't have to strive to be better when you can communicate, you just WILL be better than players who can't. It's not like playing these games is rocket surgery, anyone can learn a halfway decent rotation and spec, anyone can gear up. There's no steep learning curve to keep players who are interested in being competitive from actually competing. But there is also no grouping requirement, no mic requirement, nor in-game voice chat, ensuring that there will always be people who won't be competitive, even though they would like to be.

 

In the end, premades are a crutch, they don't make the individual a better player, but they make the overall team stronger, and they simplify exploiting some of this game's greatest weaknesses to degrees that make it unplayable for anyone not doing the same thing, ie force armor, smash, predation, grenades, focus fire, etc. etc.

 

That being said, I would rather they implement arenas with 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 options, required solo queue only, and role matching options for the team arenas. The current warzones only emphasize class balance issues.

[Pvtcarnage]

Uh, 100s of hours to gear up- I obviously mean WH since that's what geared up means. I pointed out that a f2p will spend 8 months just to get BM, and about 2 1/2 years to get WH since that's what the actual math clearly points out- I can understand your difficulty in understanding that, since you biodrones seem to be impervious to things like math and fact. Only one looking stupid is the one still defending failed pvp strategies that drove the pvp side of this game into the ground, and even after six months of steady and meteoric fall in our pvp subscriber base is STILL blindly supporting a pvp system like this based on only 'well, my server I have fun pvping' while completely ignoring everything outside your little bubble.

 

Sorry but you wrote BH and I don't assume past what you wrote, that would be dumb to guess at all the crap you wrote that is false or guessing. Secondly I have over half my WH on a fresh 2 week old 50 scoundrel and I work 60 hours a week, go out on fridays and watch Green Bay Packers kick butt on sundays. Some how I think your 100 hours estimate is a bit off. And who cares if a F2P person is to cheap to sub or pay per week for more WZ's since they are not paying for it.

 

And yes my server has had killer ques since launch are saying I should ignore that fact? You want BW to make changes to the game based on one server's population issues?

 

And when you have some actual numbers to do your math with let me know, and of course include sources.

 

It's not 'this game will fail' anymore- this game HAS failed, this game is nowhere near where anyone was hoping, it's nearing the point where they said they would simply be able to break even, and in case you didn't just notice it went f2p in near record time because of the drop in subs.

 

Depends on your definition of failed, it's still in the first year and things can change. But yes it has lost many subs but until you can show me some actual numbers and what reasons they left your argument means nothing more Then "your" feelings" on the subject. and before you start about the amount of people that post in forums,they are probably like 1% of people that play.

 

What lack of content and features are you talking about anyway? The levelling aspect is above the mindless grinding without purpose of most mmos. There's mounts, many abilities, very different classes, a large number of quests, dailies, multiple gear sets, many operations and flashpoints with multiple difficulties. You come off as someone who isn't even a pvper if the only thing you've noticed is pve guilds missing- pvp guilds and sorcs/mercs fled en masse after patch 1.2, and the operations/flashpoints complaints at that time were relatively minor- whereas the pvp forums absolutely exploded.

 

Thats your opinion, story is preteen lvl. Leveling is easy and mindless. But this is not about me complaining, it's about you complaining. And Yes all I do is PvP. And as far as Sorcs/Mercs how do you know how many fled all you did is read some complaints. And Exactly about how many do you mean by Masse? if you had numbers you could do that math thing you talk about.

 

It's laughable that you honestly are trying to say only BW can tell you truly why people have left. Really? Well then, you have nothing to worry about since f2p has brought in 5 million new customers since their reasoning was people quit and didn't try the game because they didn't want to pay a sub.

 

BW has all the metrics... not you. Do they make good decisions, not lately.

 

Fascinating that you will attack what I've said as assumption and then proudly defend the OP's list of nothing but assumptions like it's god's word, meanwhile throwing in multiple attacks like calling me stupid- while you do not actually attempt to disprove the things I've said.

 

Never called you stupid, only implied that making stuff up "can" make you look stupid. Comprehend much?

And why would I try disprove what you said if there is no real data to look at? Only a stupid person would do that.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Pvtcarnage

[DarthRaika]

I agree that solo q is a pipedream. We need a decent matchmaking system (don't make the premades wait more than 5 mins though) with mixed faction teams. This is doable and if many of us get behind it then BW might actually do it.

 

It will destroy sync q (btw spit q won't as you can def game that)

 

It will make it fun for decent premaders

 

It will make many more even matches

 

It will greatly help the issues puggers are having

 

etc.

[Pvtcarnage]

I agree that solo q is a pipedream. We need a decent matchmaking system (don't make the premades wait more than 5 mins though) with mixed faction teams. This is doable and if many of us get behind it then BW might actually do it.

 

It will destroy sync q (btw spit q won't as you can def game that)

 

It will make it fun for decent premaders

 

It will make many more even matches

 

It will greatly help the issues puggers are having

 

 

etc.

 

 

I agree with a better match making but it all comes back to cross server ques and have stated many times this is the issue that should be posted about over and over instead of people blaming premades and trolling each other.

[TridusSWTOR]

No... I'm tired of repeating myself... it's in the oringal post and in about 3 other threads that we have both commented on.

 

I'm tired of the solo queue band wagon completely ingoring any point made of why it isn't a good thing and assume that I don't want change because I like rolling pugs. It's the complete opposite and I'm annoyed that I've had to repeat the reasons why as many times as I have already.

 

Reading comprehension on these forums is something to be desired.

 

Kind of like how I'm annoyed of having to repeat myself that the current system is killing pvp. Hence why the solo bracket + cross server queue suggestion.

 

The difference between us is that I can actually log into the game and see first hand the problems, while you are stuck in speculation.

 

I agree with your last statement though and I hope you take it to heart because no offense, it would help you out a lot.

[Briljin]

1. It will never happen: The developers have stated time and time again that they want to promote community and team work. This idea completely goes against that idea.

 

How is wanting to be matched up against similar players community breaking or against the idea of team work?!? They are not asking for solo WZs, they just don't want to be pair up against pre-mades teams packing top of the line gear using voice communications.

 

2. Populations: Even if it did happen, I don't believe most servers have a strong enough population to support the idea without drastically affecting queue times

 

The queue time would be an issue but they already have it set up so if rated WZ TEAMS can not get a game after a certain time they are matched up against non rated WZ players. So the same could be done for solo vs group queue as well.

 

Personally I hate the idea of a bracket that would cater to mediocracy and gives players no incentive to improve or become more competitive.

 

Step off your high horse. Solo playing doesn't mean they are bad players. Hell they could be playing on off hours and their friends are not online. Just because someone doesn't have the same play style as you, doesn't automatically make you better than them. So stop stroking your ego...

[TridusSWTOR]

My perspective on the same points.

 

 

We have a DPS merc we run with in rated... know why? He's really &%*^$)&*ing good.

So 1 person = speaking for all. That makes sense.

And a solo queue doesn't 'alienate' anyone right?

 

Definition: Alienation - 1

 

: a withdrawing or separation of a person or a person's affections from an object or position of former attachment :

 

So you agree that pvp guild like to alienate people. You also agree that roflpremadepugstomp alienates new players because they lose interest in pvp. I'm glad that definition worked out so well for you

Form a pre-made of your own to improve your chances or roll the dice. Pre-mades also end up on your team as well as the enemy team. Some suck... some don't.

 

Or go play ranked. I guess that's asking for too much.

I can't speak for all guilds but we give EVERYONE a 2 week trial to prove skill, or potential. We will help grind gear and fine tune skills if there is potential.

 

There is a reason why you can't speak for most guilds, because most high end pvp guilds have elisist behavior. Like your example with your merc buddy, one person/group doesn't speak for everyone.

No... we all have the same grind. Those of us that have the benefit of legacy gear had to grind our first 50 the same way you did.

 

Actually when the game first started, pretty much everyone was on a even playing field. So it's not really the same grind as everyone else.

 

A change would be beneficial to fresh 50's and inexperienced PvP'ers that are already here and increasing with the F2P market. A solo queue is not a change that is beneficial to anyone and would only make the situation worse for reasons that have already been stated.

 

You're opinion, which you are entitled too.

[Pvtcarnage]

Kind of like how I'm annoyed of having to repeat myself that the current system is killing pvp. Hence why the solo bracket + cross server queue suggestion.

 

The difference between us is that I can actually log into the game and see first hand the problems, while you are stuck in speculation.

 

I agree with your last statement though and I hope you take it to heart because no offense, it would help you out a lot.

 

Killing PvP for who? not me,,,I pug as much as I group almost and see no constant premades rolling pugs. I see a mix of everything, including what you claim to be what only happens. and how can he not see it first hand but you can?

 

Single que discussion is kind of silly like OP jested to. It all comes down to cross server ques PERIOD. And please stop with the holier than thou attitude it's a bit rich, You can do what it takes to compete with current settings as they are or go play something else...But the best option is to start making posts about cross server ques and try using your moral authority to influence real life problems were people might care or believe you have said authority.