Guardian DPS, Viable or a /tableflip?

[sgtshortsy]

Hello! I've been playing on and off for a while between this and WoW, and now that Wow's getting a bit old I'd like to stay on this for an extended period of time.

 

Even though I'm a founder, I've never gone past lvl 20 simply because of my inconsistancy of playing between MMO's. I'd like to start COMPLETELY over. All my guys were Sith so now I'm trying Jedi, and I was always curious about warriors/knights. Me being a rebel-liberal type, I wanted to try Guardian DPS, but I've seen people scoff and lolnoob all who am or tried it. My question is: Should I try it and succeed? Or should I not even bother and go flip my livingroom table? Would love a response, and sorry for the ipsom-like fillers, I'm a talker.

[Alec_Fortescue]

It's by all means viable, especially the Rage spec right now, but when you are a raid leader and have a choice between a sentinel, who is not so difficult to play and has an epic raid damage buff, and a guardian who is very hard to play in order to maintain steady and high dps (no room for mistakes and double gcds are not helping either) and has no raid buffs then guess who they will chose.

 

Guardian dps is a long road, hours of parsing to find the right rotation and getting your perfect stats. Slight stat difference can make a big difference for a Vigilance dps. But in the end it's satisfying and looks fancy. Now that f2p is out of the way and the PvP patch with a new Warzone on the horizone we might finally get some buffs. But if you're properly geared in WH gear you will be able to take down WH marauders in one on one fights in a Warzone, trust me on this.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Alec_Fortescue

[wadecounty]

For PvP, Focus spec is the way to go, although Vigilance is nice in 1v1 situations.

 

For PvE, Vigilance is still the preferred spec, Focus is somewhat viable now but its messy, Vigilance is far more consistent.

 

As far as how viable Vigilance is, that depends on what you consider viable. If everyone plays their class to its potential, you will never beat a sentinel or vanguard with your numbers. However, you will do more than required to clear every bit of content in this game. And you'll also beat out average Sentinels and Vanguards

[Alec_Fortescue]

I will argue. Just parse Focus vs Vigilance on a dummy. Focus is far more stable and reliable.

[Andge]

That's a big yes; absolutely viable.

[Idunhavaname]

Yes very but as the people above me stated, its much harder or more complicated to perform perfectly compared to sentinel which could result in picky leaders choosing sentinels over guardians.

[Pernicia]

Yes very but as the people above me stated, its much harder or more complicated to perform perfectly compared to sentinel which could result in picky leaders choosing sentinels over guardians.

 

I wouldn't call a raid leader passing over a Guardian for a Sent picky. Fight mechanics dictate that there is limited room for melee DPS, typically a maximum of 2 in an 8 man raid. Sentinels offer higher DPS and amazing raid utility in the form of Inspiration and Transcendence. Pretty much any progression group will have at least 1, which leaves you fighting for 1 spot. A 2nd Sent is never a bad thing. Vanguards bring roughly the same utility as you with higher DPS. The slot can also be easily filled by a 3rd ranged class. That being said, any competent raid leader will not pass you over simply for being a DPS Guard unless it's a bleeding edge progression group. Just know that you are, however, fighting an uphill battle as one.

[Carousel_t]

untill they give guardians some party buffs, noone will ever choose a dps guardian over a sentinel. senst have A LOT higher dps, more utility skills and, in watchmen, party healing - which sometimes can save your butt. guardians in dps are at most "ok".. shame

[Slivovidze]

Hell, from what you said you don't seem to think about hardcore endgame raiding, so take the guardian, it is fun enough, a bit tougher to play than Sent, but cooler if you ask me, if you have a friendly guild who goes raiding no one will judge you because you are guardian and if there would be too many damage dealers you would not get just kicked out but have a fair chance in roll contest. Plus, you can switch to tank if you would get bored of damage dealing or long flashpoint queues, and guardian tanks are fun and cool.

[Carousel_t]

my guild likes to raid. each time i ask them if i can come with them they smile a little and say "sure, we've got enough dps to take you". i mean, compared to "real" dps, i make as much damage as a well-geared companion. i've got a decent rotation with pretty decent gear but still am far behind to sents or gunslingers. still, guardian is a fun to play char, especially if you have time to collect both dps and tank gear and are quick with respec :-)

[wadecounty]

my guild likes to raid. each time i ask them if i can come with them they smile a little and say "sure, we've got enough dps to take you". i mean, compared to "real" dps, i make as much damage as a well-geared companion. i've got a decent rotation with pretty decent gear but still am far behind to sents or gunslingers. still, guardian is a fun to play char, especially if you have time to collect both dps and tank gear and are quick with respec :-)

 

If you're doing that poorly with Guardian that you do as much as a companion, you're just not very good at it. Its not the class, its you.

 

A competent Guardian will be behind a well played Sentinel or Vanguard, sure, but you're also going to do more than enough damage to clear any content in the game. Try reading up on some of the Vigilance DPS threads to get a better feel for your rotation and gearing.

[Kitru]

untill they give guardians some party buffs

 

And raid group that isn't already packing a Guardian tank, a Gunslinger, or a Gunnery commando would do much better bringing a Guardian DPS rather than a Sentinel. The problem is that the party buff that Guardians bring (armor debuff) is rendered redundant by the presence of a number of other classes and specs. If Inspiration were ever made potentially redundant by providing it to other classes/specs and the causing it to place a debuff on the targets affected (which, honestly, it really should considering how useful and unique it is), Sentinels would lose their "preferred" status in raid groups (which is what we're talking about since, assuming equal DPS, a Sentinel trumps every other DPS class in the game purely because of Inspiration).

[Riivan]

I am by no means a Vigi guard expert you can look at my parses and clearly see that. But Vigi DPS is viable and you can hold your own with just about any class if you play it correctly. I tend to be quite a bit below people on parses because I am just not that good at the class.

 

Mattmonkey has some great advice and information so look his posts up if you haven't already. There are threads that dot the forum (I wish we could get a few stickies on them) that have great rotations and breakdowns of skills. You can do it yourself, just do a 5min parse no adrenals or clicky relics and see what skills do the most dmg vs gcd and dmg vs focus cost. You'll be able to work out a nice priority system and when you understand both you'll be able to squeeze out all that the class has to offer.

Edited November 25, 2012 by Riivan

[gamerpaul]

I am by no means a Vigi guard expert you can look at my parses and clearly see that. But Vigi DPS is viable and you can hold your own with just about any class if you play it correctly. I tend to be quite a bit below people on parses because I am just not that good at the class.

 

Mattmonkey has some great advice and information so look his posts up if you haven't already. There are threads that dot the forum (I wish we could get a few stickies on them) that have great rotations and breakdowns of skills. You can do it yourself, just do a 5min parse no adrenals or clicky relics and see what skills do the most dmg vs gcd and dmg vs focus cost. You'll be able to work out a nice priority system and when you understand both you'll be able to squeeze out all that the class has to offer.

 

Everyone is still stuck on vig/veng. Focus/rage is just as good or better for pve jugg/guardians now. I out dps the marauder, merc, and sniper in my raid group with either spec. Rage is my preferred spec atm. I just parse way higher on TFB HM bosses with rage and I also do about 200 more damage on an ops dummy in rage as well.

[arkitip]

Everyone is still stuck on vig/veng. Focus/rage is just as good or better for pve jugg/guardians now. I out dps the marauder, merc, and sniper in my raid group with either spec. Rage is my preferred spec atm. I just parse way higher on TFB HM bosses with rage and I also do about 200 more damage on an ops dummy in rage as well.

 

Rage is more mobile. That'll help when you don't know the fight as well. It's certainly a viable PvE spec now, and I used it until NiM EC.

 

As for the dummy, Vengeance is a poor dummy parser because of the passive rage regen. You end up using Assault way more on the dummy then you will in live boss fights.

[meowgodofcats]

I've run focus guardian since launch and it's much MUCH more viable now that it was 2 months ago. I keep up with my slingers and sent on every boss except NiM zorn and toth. Having good aoe damage helps with adds

(especially NiM EC Kephess holy hell) but single target is highly dependent on knowing your rotation and priorities. The way I'm geared now I sit around 1800-1900 dps on operations mk-5 dummy over the course of 3 minutes, sometimes as high as 2400 if I get lucky with crits. The highest I've put out on HM TFB Kephess is 2800-something thanks to those crazy burn phases. Personally vigilance isn't for me. I like owning the trash and adds as well as keeping up single target.

 

TL;DR Yes, do it and make people have a little faith in the guardian.

[Karasuko]

I'The highest I've put out on HM TFB Kephess is 2800-something thanks to those crazy burn phases..

 

Not the best guideline to be using there. I really don't see how 1 overbuffed sweep + masterstrike can equal 3 dots ticking,a masterstrike and an OS.

You really should be parsing higher with vigi on anything but writing terror and maybe dreadguards if your cheesing meters with splash damage.

[Karasuko]

Everyone is still stuck on vig/veng. Focus/rage is just as good or better for pve jugg/guardians now. I out dps the marauder, merc, and sniper in my raid group with either spec. Rage is my preferred spec atm. I just parse way higher on TFB HM bosses with rage and I also do about 200 more damage on an ops dummy in rage as well.

 

This is purely anecdotal here. By way higher, how much higher? 200 dps? 500 dps? Ops dummies are a terible way to gauge personal dps, Any fight with multiple execute phases is going to favor vigi as you spend more time dispatching with 90%+ crit.

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing lolsweep aswell but every spec has its time and place.Flat out saying 1 spec is better than another without proof is like me saying the sky is orange.

[GarfieldJL]

Everyone is still stuck on vig/veng. Focus/rage is just as good or better for pve jugg/guardians now. I out dps the marauder, merc, and sniper in my raid group with either spec. Rage is my preferred spec atm. I just parse way higher on TFB HM bosses with rage and I also do about 200 more damage on an ops dummy in rage as well.

 

Focus is more geared for dishing out an aoe though, which is counter-productive when there are ccs flying around...

 

Vigilence is a decent DPS class, one thing you will want to do is try to figure out a way that you can off-tank simply by switching stances (not changing gear). Also the pvp relics are better than the PvE relics as far as damage goes.

 

What you lack in buffs you can make up for with being able to fill more than one role, I'm going to say flat out, tanking with a guardian is 90% gear, 10% skill tree. So in fact you are able to play tank even if you're set up to be a DPS.

[wadecounty]

Focus is more geared for dishing out an aoe though, which is counter-productive when there are ccs flying around...

 

Vigilence is a decent DPS class, one thing you will want to do is try to figure out a way that you can off-tank simply by switching stances (not changing gear). Also the pvp relics are better than the PvE relics as far as damage goes.

 

What you lack in buffs you can make up for with being able to fill more than one role, I'm going to say flat out, tanking with a guardian is 90% gear, 10% skill tree. So in fact you are able to play tank even if you're set up to be a DPS.

Holy crap stop posting on this board PLEASE. You are going to ruin people who actually come here looking for good advice. STOP SUGGESTING PEOPLE CAN TANK AND DPS AT THE SAME TIME.

[meowgodofcats]

Not the best guideline to be using there. I really don't see how 1 overbuffed sweep + masterstrike can equal 3 dots ticking,a masterstrike and an OS.

You really should be parsing higher with vigi on anything but writing terror and maybe dreadguards if your cheesing meters with splash damage.

 

I put up 1643 on writhing terror without splashing the adds. dread guard maybe I'll catch an add during kelsara but during the heirad phase cephas and kelsara aren't in range. no cheese. 1652. those are just the ranked on mr robot.

 

it's about knowing the phases and staying on the boss. I posted my kephess number just for the hell of it. it's not all about the sweep, it's just a nice bonus.

Edited December 8, 2012 by meowgodofcats
spelling

[GarfieldJL]

Holy crap stop posting on this board PLEASE. You are going to ruin people who actually come here looking for good advice. STOP SUGGESTING PEOPLE CAN TANK AND DPS AT THE SAME TIME.

 

Then explain how I can tank HM flashpoints, story mode KP, and EV, while being able to then DPS Story Mode Explosive Conflict all using the same gear set and without changing skill trees...

 

Last I checked, Explosive Conflict is actually harder than some HM Operations, and yes I've actually dpsed with the same gear in HM Eternal Vault and did just fine, thank you kindly...

 

I'm not going to lie and claim it was easy to put together a working set of gear, but it can actually be done if you pay very close attention to the numbers.

 

I have adjusted things so I have higher surge rating, which took some adjustments, which has made it so I actually do have to be in sorseu at all times if I'm playing tank (I don't have quite as much leeway as when I had more shield upgrades), but I can actually tank HM Flashpoints as well as some story mode operations with my current gear set.

 

I'm not going to run around claiming that I can tank Explosive Conflict or nightmare Ops, I know that is well out of my league when it comes to tanking. Could I be a decent DPS in HM OPs, answer is yes, haven't ran HM Explosive Conflict yet, but then with the way I've had lag spikes of late, I'm not keen on getting killed by lag spike.

 

Part of my incentive for continuing to use the setup that I currently use is the fact I tend to end up being aggied by a bosses that completely ignore Guardian Tanks, cause I can generate more threat in Shien stance than a Guardian tank can in Sorseu. If I hadn't geared the way I have, I would have died many times over.

 

I should also emphasize that my armor setup isn't exactly cheap, so from an expense standpoint it is probably half the cost simply to chose one role or the other, and having to watch all your numbers to make sure you don't mess up your gear can be very irritating, that said you can build in a little more survivability into your dps gear, or more dps into your tank gear and function in multiple roles.

Edited December 8, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[Riivan]

I'm not hung up on Vigilance I just happen to like the priority system more and enjoy the way it works.

 

For NiM EC I made the switch to focus and after some getting used to, it is quite a lot of fun. Some fights when I can't force sweep are interesting, but it's a fun spec. I can say that it's viable for pve from a firsthand basis now. As for end game it really is up to personal preference which you want to go with.

 

As for the tanking thing, you can do KP/EV or HM FPs in vigilance pretty easily. I mean, I run hybrid when I tank on my guard anyway, so it's not too much of a departure tanking as vig. For high end raiding though, you definitely need to gear yourself for one or the other. You can't split the difference, swap stances and hope to be competitive in either arena.

[wadecounty]

Then explain how I can tank HM flashpoints, story mode KP, and EV, while being able to then DPS Story Mode Explosive Conflict all using the same gear set and without changing skill trees...

 

Last I checked, Explosive Conflict is actually harder than some HM Operations, and yes I've actually dpsed with the same gear in HM Eternal Vault and did just fine, thank you kindly...

 

I'm not going to lie and claim it was easy to put together a working set of gear, but it can actually be done if you pay very close attention to the numbers.

 

I have adjusted things so I have higher surge rating, which took some adjustments, which has made it so I actually do have to be in sorseu at all times if I'm playing tank (I don't have quite as much leeway as when I had more shield upgrades), but I can actually tank HM Flashpoints as well as some story mode operations with my current gear set.

 

I'm not going to run around claiming that I can tank Explosive Conflict or nightmare Ops, I know that is well out of my league when it comes to tanking. Could I be a decent DPS in HM OPs, answer is yes, haven't ran HM Explosive Conflict yet, but then with the way I've had lag spikes of late, I'm not keen on getting killed by lag spike.

 

Part of my incentive for continuing to use the setup that I currently use is the fact I tend to end up being aggied by a bosses that completely ignore Guardian Tanks, cause I can generate more threat in Shien stance than a Guardian tank can in Sorseu. If I hadn't geared the way I have, I would have died many times over.

 

I should also emphasize that my armor setup isn't exactly cheap, so from an expense standpoint it is probably half the cost simply to chose one role or the other, and having to watch all your numbers to make sure you don't mess up your gear can be very irritating, that said you can build in a little more survivability into your dps gear, or more dps into your tank gear and function in multiple roles.

You said it yourself, STORY MODE.

 

Nobody needs advice on how to do a STORY MODE.

 

Also, you claiming you pull off your tanks just means you have bad tanks, it doesn't mean you're doing anything special. You pull, a tank taunts back... if you're continuously pulling throughout the fight you have really awful tanks.

Edited December 9, 2012 by wadecounty

[grallmate]

Then explain how I can tank HM flashpoints, story mode KP, and EV, while being able to then DPS Story Mode Explosive Conflict all using the same gear set and without changing skill trees...

 

Last I checked, Explosive Conflict is actually harder than some HM Operations, and yes I've actually dpsed with the same gear in HM Eternal Vault and did just fine, thank you kindly...

 

I'm not going to lie and claim it was easy to put together a working set of gear, but it can actually be done if you pay very close attention to the numbers.

 

I have adjusted things so I have higher surge rating, which took some adjustments, which has made it so I actually do have to be in sorseu at all times if I'm playing tank (I don't have quite as much leeway as when I had more shield upgrades), but I can actually tank HM Flashpoints as well as some story mode operations with my current gear set.

 

I'm not going to run around claiming that I can tank Explosive Conflict or nightmare Ops, I know that is well out of my league when it comes to tanking. Could I be a decent DPS in HM OPs, answer is yes, haven't ran HM Explosive Conflict yet, but then with the way I've had lag spikes of late, I'm not keen on getting killed by lag spike.

 

Part of my incentive for continuing to use the setup that I currently use is the fact I tend to end up being aggied by a bosses that completely ignore Guardian Tanks, cause I can generate more threat in Shien stance than a Guardian tank can in Sorseu. If I hadn't geared the way I have, I would have died many times over.

 

I should also emphasize that my armor setup isn't exactly cheap, so from an expense standpoint it is probably half the cost simply to chose one role or the other, and having to watch all your numbers to make sure you don't mess up your gear can be very irritating, that said you can build in a little more survivability into your dps gear, or more dps into your tank gear and function in multiple roles.

 

/facepalm

 

I was happy when I thought you'd quit after LAST time we discussed this.

 

Be a DPS *OR* a tank. Don't try and be both. As a DPS, always take a DPS boost over a survivability boost, as a tank always take survivability over DPS. Trying to mix the two is fine for FPs but in an Op its about specialization and filling your role. Role hybrids have no place in Ops.

 

Next you'll be telling us that Freezing Force is a great way to control bosses.