All species are the same...stat wise. Decision process?

[seven_deadlies]

With all those Humans...

 

I want the humans with technicolor rainbow skin, and metallic grills for eyes...

 

Why did they choose Cathar, when we could be Voss!

[Stradlin]

]This has a lot to do with SWTOR being a story based MMO' date=' romances and all. [/b']Personal interactions become odd and unrelatable if you have a character that is too far from human. And let's not forget the romances... they would range from icky to just downright objectionable.

 

Bit of trivia, I picked my BH's race as ratattaki during beta for the 2% crit bonus. They of course took the bonuses out due to player complaints, but I liked my character design so much I stuck with it. So the lack of bonuses is certainly not due to laziness.

 

Yes, I said as much in like 1st sentence coming after you cut my quite.

 

But yah, as you said, let's not forget the romances. Here is a prime example of costs we have to pay when BW starts pleasing some creepy "I must have sex in my video game or else!" marketing segment. When point-of-departure in race implementation is that every single race MUST have a number of templates that are conviniently close to George Clooney, how would it be possible to end up with sum-of-all-parts that is not boring or ridiculous.

 

With that said, most (perfectly sane) arguments used in all those insuffrable 2000000000 pages long "Gay/bi relationships in my game?!" threads apply here as well.

ie: You find idea of monstrous cyborg wanting and getting some sweet lovin' disturbing? Then don't play as one! Or play as one but don't do romances. Problem solved. I just want a cyborg race that doesn't have so incredibly lazy, stupid and nonambitous design damnit. I don't care whose fantasies existance of such might serve/ruin.

 

When it comes to personal relationships in general being odd and unrelatable between races too far apart.. Wellp, Han and Chewbacca? Theirs is a relationship so relatable and natural it prolly shows up in all kinds of " greatest onscreen friendships top 50" listings and suches.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Stradlin

[Pepperawr]

Yes, I said as much in like 1st sentence coming after you cut my quite.

 

But yah, as you said, let's not forget the romances. Here is a prime example of costs we have to pay when BW starts pleasing some creepy "I must have sex in my video game or else!" marketing segment. When point-of-departure in race implementation is that every single race MUST have a number of templates that are conviniently close to George Clooney, how would it be possible to end up with sum-of-all-parts that is not boring or ridiculous.

 

With that said, most (perfectly sane) arguments used in all those insuffrable 2000000000 pages long "Gay/bi relationships in my game?!" threads apply here as well.

ie: You find idea of monstrous cyborg wanting and getting some sweet lovin' disturbing? Then don't play as one! Or play as one but don't do romances. Problem solved. I just want a cyborg race that doesn't have so incredibly lazy, stupid and nonambitous design damnit. I don't care whose fantasies existance of such might serve/ruin.

 

When it comes to personal relationships in general being odd and unrelatable between races too far apart.. Wellp, Han and Chewbacca? Theirs is a relationship so relatable and natural it prolly shows up in all kinds of " greatest onscreen friendships top 50" listings and suches.

 

Hmm yes, I did tune out that you mentioned romances. Well, it's a matter of professional storytelling that the more human you make a character, the more people will relate to them, become attached to them, understand the character's perspective.

 

It's actually more strange that people will play a hundred games about killing, stealing from, burning and otherwise doing a whole bunch of other stuff to humans, but when there's implicit sex.. the most natural thing in the world... some people get squeamish.

 

If it's any consolation some dev mentioned that they would consider a more severely non-human character as an expansion possibility but it would require it to have it's own class type/ class story.

[Skodan]

I don't get what you're saying.

I wrongly assumed that there would be benefits/negatives with the species choice. However I was wrong.

So this got me to thinking about the decision process that BW went through to make this decision.

Not sure how this is the "nub of the matter"?

 

they made this decision i would assume quite easily. either have species with bonuses thereby having min/maxers complain about grouping with classes if they are a specific species, or to give an edge to a species for being a certain class.

 

by not giving a bonus to species choice, it allows the player to choose any species they want without being affected performance wise

[HelinCarnate]

For me personally, yes I would have liked to have seen some stat differences between races. It's something that I was used to in my very first MMORPG and I believe it adds to the feeling of your toon being something more personal to you, rather than a just a stat clone with a different skin.

 

Having said that, I fully understand the reasons for BW not implementing it also.

 

The design choice has a lot to do with the gaming demographic that BW want to attract. I personally am able to accept consequences to my decisions, particularly within a genre such as MMORPG. For me personally, I would welcome the decision "Do I roll a Rodian or a Bothan because they look so cool....or do I roll a Human or Trandoshan because those races have +2 to melee defense" for example.

 

In the example above, if I chose a Rodian or Bothan I personally would be able to accept the fact that this means there will always be players that chose Human and Trandoshan and who will always have an extra 2% on my template therefore I would never be pure max template. But that would be ok because I would have the cool looking race I wanted.

 

Most gamers today find such a consequence unacceptable when making these sorts of decisions. They QQ that choosing one race over another is unfair because the consequence of that choice could mean someone else in game has an extra 2% on them. Essentially the entitlement crowd who want to be a one man army min/maxer no matter what decisions they make. People want choice as long as they dont have to live with the decisions they make and as long as that choice means nobody is any different in the end. It baffles me and always has

 

So what if a racial choice means you suffer a slight dent to the mathematically perfect template, I would be too busy enjoying the game to worry about it and if it did bother me that much I would make the decision to go with the race that gave me a pure template and be happy with that decision, for the same reason I made that decision in the first place.

 

Driz

 

Which is fine until people go, oh you are Human healer? Sorry, no noobs allowed in our op.

[EATtheDEAD]

A human, chiss, zabrak, and twi'lek are all in a quest conversation together, they are all the same class and they all have the same voice... now that is realistic and immersive!

[JacenHallis]

WoW has Mage/Priest/Warlock/Paladin/Warrior/Rogue we have Jug/Assassin/Sorc/PT/Mara/Merc/Sniper/Operative. Sure WoW added DKs and that monk class but lets take count now.

 

With its mirrored classes TOR has 8 classes. With 16 sets of animations

WoW without mirrored classes, and just classes. Had 6 classes at launch with 6 sets of animations and now has 8 classes with 8 sets of animations.

 

So how is a company that does more work the lazy one?

It's November! let's have a recount:

 

Release WoW:

Classes: Warrior, Paladin, Hunter, Priest, Mage, Warlock, Shaman, Druid, Rogue. Total: 9 classes (Current: Add Death Knight, Monk. Total: 10)

Animations: Based on race. Total: 8 (Current: Add Draenei, Blood Elf, Pandaren. Total: 11)

 

Not sure what this proves, but there you go. Research, research, research.

[chuixupu]

I would have loved it if all the species had very unique paths, but this would have put even more time, money, and effort into the writing and recording and overall cohesiveness of being an MMO.

 

There were originally supposed to be back stories for certain race/class combos as well, but they cut them down a lot. If you play a Chiss Imperial Agent you do in fact get some interesting dialogue here and there and your own little background about having come from the Chiss secret police, so I thought that was cool.

[Izorii]

I remember when SWG promised racial abilities and bonuses. The out cry on the forums was massive because everyone thought the best ability would go to someone else. Then it became back ground abilities and different people cried out saying having every human have Wookie Roar because it was best ability was stupid and as far as I know it was scrapped.

 

I would have liked to have seen stats and bonuses on species I suspect it was just easier to scrap any racial bonus as far as balance was concerned than try to work it in. Given 90% of stats seems to come from armour I cant see why 5 or 10 points in Stats would have made a ground breaking change on the species people play but might have made some people happy.

[Eillack]

It definitely wasn't pure laziness, but a balanced decision. It prevents the issue of the people being forced to pick a certain race do they wish to maximize their stats for their class.

 

This.

 

Bioware made the right choice so no one was pressured to choose a species based on states.

[CosmicKat]

Generic. That is the operative word.

 

Any member of any class is generic because of the over-importance put on "primary" stat. When there is only one stat that matters, everyone will effectively be the same. A player can't decide to make an agile, dodgy Sentinel by sacrificing some strength for example.

 

Any member of any species is generic, because they are. Nothing differentiates species choices except cosmetics.

 

I can understand the reasoning, it is purely for PvP. PvE always suffers when PvP balance is the issue.

 

A good, well-thought out character stat system allows players the option of doing something "out of the ordinary". It allows a player to pick a race/class combo that is not an ideal min/max combo for that class. It allows players the ability to add self-challenge by picking a non-optimal combo for the sake of challenge, or just to be different.

 

Far too many times the "easy choice" was taken in TOR's design and that is why generic rules the gameworld.

[GalacticKegger]

Generic. That is the operative word.

 

Any member of any class is generic because of the over-importance put on "primary" stat. When there is only one stat that matters, everyone will effectively be the same. A player can't decide to make an agile, dodgy Sentinel by sacrificing some strength for example.

 

Any member of any species is generic, because they are. Nothing differentiates species choices except cosmetics.

 

I can understand the reasoning, it is purely for PvP. PvE always suffers when PvP balance is the issue.

 

A good, well-thought out character stat system allows players the option of doing something "out of the ordinary". It allows a player to pick a race/class combo that is not an ideal min/max combo for that class. It allows players the ability to add self-challenge by picking a non-optimal combo for the sake of challenge, or just to be different.

 

Far too many times the "easy choice" was taken in TOR's design and that is why generic rules the gameworld.

No different than most other MMORPGs. Anything but agility would do nothing for a WoW Hunter, just like anything but willpower would do nothing for a Consular. (Does anything but willpower help a shadow tank?) Perhaps the game will evolve to add tradeoffs with other ability scores. But for being less than a year old, I think having skill tree buffs in combination with moddable armor starting at level 8 allows some degree of performance customization. Especially with regard to balancing base damage/heals with alacrity, crit and surge.

 

Racial ability modifiers would be kinda cool I think. But since there aren't any yet, it's mostly about legacy race availability and appearance preferences.

Edited November 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[CosmicKat]

No different than most other MMORPGs. Anything but agility would do nothing for a WoW Hunter, just like anything but willpower would do nothing for a Consular. (Does anything but willpower help a shadow tank?) Perhaps the game will evolve to add tradeoffs with other ability scores. But for being less than a year old, I think having skill tree buffs in combination with moddable armor starting at level 8 allows some degree of performance customization. Especially with regard to balancing base damage/heals with alacrity, crit and surge.

 

Racial ability modifiers would be kinda cool I think. But since there aren't any yet, it's mostly about legacy race availability and appearance preferences.

 

It's completely different from all MMO's prior to WoW, most since, and most every RPG character system on paper, or pc.

 

It's a design choice they made to simplify characters and combat and to inherently balance PvP without trying. If you make every member of each class identical, you save tons of time tweaking and balancing. Those are the positives.

 

The negatives are that every member of each class is the same. This kills replayability of those classes. When you add in that all classes have identical mirror classes, you end up with the RPG with the least amount of character variety since DnD v1.0 in the 1970's.

[iamthehoyden]

I'm good with there being no stat bonuses.

 

However, I would like to see more conversations in the game reflect the species of your character. Having a human insult the Chiss to an allied Chiss without a protest is weird.

[terrorfistjab]

I'm good with there being no stat bonuses.

 

However, I would like to see more conversations in the game reflect the species of your character. Having a human insult the Chiss to an allied Chiss without a protest is weird.

 

I agree with all of the above.

[GalacticKegger]

It's completely different from all MMO's prior to WoW, most since, and most every RPG character system on paper, or pc.

 

It's a design choice they made to simplify characters and combat and to inherently balance PvP without trying. If you make every member of each class identical, you save tons of time tweaking and balancing. Those are the positives.

 

The negatives are that every member of each class is the same. This kills replayability of those classes. When you add in that all classes have identical mirror classes, you end up with the RPG with the least amount of character variety since DnD v1.0 in the 1970's.

I played in Gary's Dungeon Shoppe in Lake Geneva (i.e. his house) in the late 70s and still have the original Men & Magic set, Eldritch Wizardy, Gods Demigos & Heroes, Blackmoor, etc... in their original zip locks (showing my age ... ugh. The original game bag still has the price tag on it: $2.75.) I could probably make a fortune on Ebay. Frankly 2.0 killed the game. It took all of the eyeball to eyeball assign realistic percentages on the fly dice rolling out of DMing and forced DMs to memorize charts and tables and specs. It went from role playing to role playing between research breaks.

 

As a gaming purist I like it simple. Probably my favorite thing about TOR is the tanking and how pure it is. Jedi Knight & Sith Warrior tanking never gets old for me. Sabre throw/taunt or force leap/sweep to get the party started then fight like hell to keep the party clean without class-custom bells & whistles is a fun challenge for me.

 

Give me one taunt, one aggro bomb, one interrupt and one stun (with good armor of course) and I'll tank Godzilla with a whiffle bat and a frisbee. Paladins destroyed tanking in WoW for me. I loved playing a pure warrior tank where every ounce of aggro was fought for instead of being min-maxed for like it is now. That's a big reason I prefer this game to other MMOs - their class masteries are more of a convoluted science project than the art of manufacturing tactical advantages in combat.

 

But that's just me.

Edited November 13, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Elyx]

Which is fine until people go, oh you are Human healer? Sorry, no noobs allowed in our op.

 

Your comment was exactly the point of the person you quoted. He said Bio made the choice to simplify races because of people who say or think exactly what you said right there. think about it for a second...in this game there is nothing that 2% of a stat will allow you to beat that you couldn't beat without that stat boost. But in spite of that, people would still pick the 2% bonus, and most likely alienate those who didn't have it.

 

So in a game where that childish mentality isn't needed, Bio was aware that people would still exhibit that behavior, and decided that race should not be part of that process. So, in effect, the vanilla feel to the races are due to those who would prioritize stats over everything instead of those who would actually enjoy the differences those stats would bring. Bio knew that class "filtering" would occur...it's an unavoidable situation in games such as these. but they wanted the racial choice to be free of this bias, hence why they dropped it.

 

And like the OP you quoted, I enjoy racial differences, but I understand why Bio made that decision. I may not like it, but it works out for the best give the mentality that exists nowadays in most MMO's.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Elyx

[CosmicKat]

I played in Gary's Dungeon Shoppe in Lake Geneva (i.e. his house) in the late 70s and still have the original Men & Magic set, Eldritch Wizardy, Gods Demigos & Heroes, Blackmoor, etc... in their original zip locks (showing my age ... ugh. The original game bag still has the price tag on it: $2.75.) I could probably make a fortune on Ebay. Frankly 2.0 killed the game. It took all of the eyeball to eyeball assign realistic percentages on the fly dice rolling out of DMing and forced DMs to memorize charts and tables and specs. It went from role playing to role playing between research breaks.

 

As a gaming purist I like it simple. Probably my favorite thing about TOR is the tanking and how pure it is. Jedi Knight & Sith Warrior tanking never gets old for me. Sabre throw/taunt or force leap/sweep to get the party started then fight like hell to keep the party clean without class-custom bells & whistles is a fun challenge for me.

 

Give me one taunt, one aggro bomb, one interrupt and one stun (with good armor of course) and I'll tank Godzilla with a whiffle bat and a frisbee. Paladins destroyed tanking in WoW for me. I loved playing a pure warrior tank where every ounce of aggro was fought for instead of being min-maxed for like it is now. That's a big reason I prefer this game to other MMOs where their class masteries are more of a convoluted science project than manufacturing tactical advantages in combat.

 

But that's just me.

 

I get where you are coming from.

 

However, the job of the computer in a role playing game is to do all that boring math that players and dm's used to do. The complexity and variety should be drastically enhanced behind the scenes and the gameplay should be smoother because the computer is the one doing all the "work".

 

There's barely any roleplaying left in MMO's and RPG's so they should at least allow the game mechanics to allow for some variety. Progress has resulted in a great platform for roleplaying being so underused that they have literally dropped the RPG from the genre's name. In affect we are left with an RPG that has no roleplaying (watching a movie is NOT roleplaying) and classes are reduced to being "every tank is a human named Bob the Tank with 18 strength and constitution".

[MadBlue]

The negatives are that every member of each class is the same. This kills replayability of those classes. When you add in that all classes have identical mirror classes, you end up with the RPG with the least amount of character variety since DnD v1.0 in the 1970's.

 

You can still play different specs, level with different companions, make different conversation and alignment choices, level them in different ways, unlock different Legacy perks, etc. How does the fact that species is purely cosmetic kill replayability? How much do you think people would be tempted to play the same advanced class to 50 if species wasn't cosmetic? Especially considering there are more advanced classes than character slots.

[GalacticKegger]

I get where you are coming from.

 

However, the job of the computer in a role playing game is to do all that boring math that players and dm's used to do. The complexity and variety should be drastically enhanced behind the scenes and the gameplay should be smoother because the computer is the one doing all the "work".

 

There's barely any roleplaying left in MMO's and RPG's so they should at least allow the game mechanics to allow for some variety. Progress has resulted in a great platform for roleplaying being so underused that they have literally dropped the RPG from the genre's name. In affect we are left with an RPG that has no roleplaying (watching a movie is NOT roleplaying) and classes are reduced to being "every tank is a human named Bob the Tank with 18 strength and constitution".

But that's what Bioware has been touting about this game for years. Their technology went into voice animation and processing player choice interactions during these voice animations. This was a conscious and much publicized choice on their part.

 

I have had more role playing laughs doing the gazillion quests with friends and guildmates than any other role playing game I've ever experienced. We've even found obscure dialogue trees that led to obscure flashpoint plots by playing smart alec with the NPCs. The teams who wrote this stuff (more dialogue than all 6 Star Wars movies combined btw) really knocked it out of the park.

 

TOR is as close to role playing in an MMO (other than maybe Sims Online and the like) as it gets imho. I find if I want to seriously role play (which isn't often) I simply start or join convos in-game. I don't know how that isn't role playing unless the game is supposed to do that for the player as well.

 

After role playing the emphasis in this game is on player teamwork, not masking teamwork behind special ability expertise. They chose to move most of the complexity behind the scenes instead of leaving a rat's nest of min/max technical hooks for players to decipher. Combat in this game was meant to be visceral and fun, not a full-time commitment to getting an extra percentage point of damage.

 

While there are plenty of ways to tailor a character's specialization with gear mods, skill trees, etc. there aren't endless options in this regard. That's proobably a good thing for all but the extreme hard core. Which is fine by me because they will just burn through content in every game they play then move to their next conquest anyway. It's how they roll ... like the aliens in Independence Day. Most I know who enjoy playing this game (and I've been here since closed beta) don't roll that way.

Edited November 14, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[MoobooMagoo]

Stats I can live with. Looks of pretty much all races being so DULL is more damaging to game as a whole. We have

 

Humans

Humans in goth make up

Humans with odd patches on their face and/or sunglasses

Blind Humans.

 

Green skinned humans, blue skinned humans, humans with tiny horns really don't quite earn that diversity dollar either.

 

 

Would you rather be like WoW and have:

Humans

Humans with long ears

Blue humans with long ears

Blue humans with long ears and tusks

Short fat humans

Shorter, more childlike humans

Shorter, more childlike green humans

Blue humans with tentacles on their face

Humans that turn into anthropomorphic (animals with human characteristics) wolves

Anthropomorphic Pandas

Anthropomorphic Cows

Dead humans

Green humans

 

So that is 13 races and each one is human like.

 

When you play a game you will almost always play a human or human-like character. Games tell stories and stories are easier to understand if you can relate to the protagonist.

 

On topic: I really like racial bonuses, but I understand why Bioware would not want them in the game. I like them because I like the min/max and that is one more thing to do it with. I also like racial bonuses so I can try to subvert expectations; being a Taru Taru Monk in FFXI is hilarious, for example.

[Andryah]

I wrongly assumed that different species would actually get different advantages/disadvantages and that choice could shape how your character developed.

......

Would you have liked to have seen a difference? So your choice of species actually made a difference to your character at all?

 

It never mattered to me personally. I play for looks, style, lore. Any starting stats you get with racial differences in MMOs is largely irrelevant by the time you level up anyway. I get that some min-maxers get worked up about a few extra stat points and will chase it... but it really is trivial in every MMO I have ever played.

[Valethar]

Having stats for what is primarily a unchangeable aesthetic choice is a bad idea

 

That explains the decision to make all races look the same, other than colors and patterns.

 

Why go to the effort to make Humans different from Zabrak, Chiss, Miralan, etc.. when you can give them all the same faces and just change the colors? After all, with no way to go back and change your appearance, choosing a race is merely an unchangeable aesthetic choice.

[CosmicKat]

But that's what Bioware has been touting about this game for years. Their technology went into voice animation and processing player choice interactions during these voice animations. This was a conscious and much publicized choice on their part.

 

I have had more role playing laughs doing the gazillion quests with friends and guildmates than any other role playing game I've ever experienced. We've even found obscure dialogue trees that led to obscure flashpoint plots by playing smart alec with the NPCs. The teams who wrote this stuff (more dialogue than all 6 Star Wars movies combined btw) really knocked it out of the park.

 

TOR is as close to role playing in an MMO (other than maybe Sims Online and the like) as it gets imho. I find if I want to seriously role play (which isn't often) I simply start or join convos in-game. I don't know how that isn't role playing unless the game is supposed to do that for the player as well.

 

After role playing the emphasis in this game is on player teamwork, not masking teamwork behind special ability expertise. They chose to move most of the complexity behind the scenes instead of leaving a rat's nest of min/max technical hooks for players to decipher. Combat in this game was meant to be visceral and fun, not a full-time commitment to getting an extra percentage point of damage.

 

While there are plenty of ways to tailor a character's specialization with gear mods, skill trees, etc. there aren't endless options in this regard. That's proobably a good thing for all but the extreme hard core. Which is fine by me because they will just burn through content in every game they play then move to their next conquest anyway. It's how they roll ... like the aliens in Independence Day. Most I know who enjoy playing this game (and I've been here since closed beta) don't roll that way.

 

I don't dispute that story was one of their goals. I think they did a great job with them but it's pretty clear it isn't a draw like they thought it would be. The player involvement in these stories is minimal, the outcomes are pre-determined which makes them far more "movie" than "roleplaying".

 

I'm glad you've found the RP here to your liking. My own experiences aren't as good. Of all the MMO's I've played I would rate this clearly at the bottom of the pile. Every other MMO I've ever played has oodles more RP going on. That's much more on the backs of the players than the developers but they really don't do much at all to facilitate RP, hugely surprising since it is a Bioware title. You would think the makers of NWN would know better.

 

As for character variety, I couldn't disagree more. I've played many MMO's and never seen one as generic as this in character variety. For example, in EQ playing a wood elf warrior and a barbarian warrior felt like two completely different classes, in TOR playing any melee class feels exactly the same. Some leap, some have one saber, some have two, and some have a double bladed one but in actual gameplay... run up, mash buttons 1-4, pick up loot. Repeat till 50.

Edited November 14, 2012 by CosmicKat