Galbatorrix Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) The single biggest factor according to BW is money. People thought BW was charging too much for what they were getting. If they start nickle and diming people it's going to be the EXACT SAME THING over again, instead of subs it's going to be interlaced systems and functions with hidden costs and poor interoperability. The difference is, people before HAD to pay money to play. F2P people don't have to pay a dime if they don't want to. If they want certain conveniences, they pay for the one's that they'll use. If they get tired of the class quest, they can buy a week pass to warzones and PVP it up for 7 days. If they don'r care about PVP, they never have to pay anything for it. Same with flashpoints, Ops, etc. So, all of the people that quit due to the cost can come back, play through the story again and spend as little or as much as they want to. They still get sprint at level 14 and speeders at level 25. They can still use QT (with a longer cool down) and they can still equipped moddable oranges and buy mods with comms to continue using a style they enjoy. All for free. Did you really expect them to give away all of the game's content for free? Edited October 18, 2012 by Galbatorrix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 The single biggest factor according to BW is money. People thought BW was charging too much for what they were getting. If they start nickle and diming people it's going to be the EXACT SAME THING over again, instead of subs it's going to be interlaced systems and functions with hidden costs and poor interoperability. Nickle and dimeing people? Thats exactly what F2P games do. F2P players are nickle and dimed in every way that counts. Be it character slots, customizaton, skills and even down to quality of life in game abilities. If thats your problem then no F2P game is for you even if everyone one does something different. It's there to nickle and dime you over time VS a straight $15 a month that gives you everything. However, there are no hidden costs. it's all there for you to look at and see. It's a buffet of costs for you to choose and pay for. Only pay for what you want and leave the rest off your plate. I know I played LOTRO long enough for well below the monthly subscription by the time you average out my costs for $15 a month and the years I played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I am excited that this could mean some of the trivial features I desire could be added as cash items, plus many of the credit sinks in the game could be available as items for purchase instead. I know some people are upset about this, but I can help but be hopeful and encouraged. IMO this is how the game should have been from the very beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durasturan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Nickle and dimeing people? Thats exactly what F2P games do. F2P players are nickle and dimed in every way that counts. Be it character slots, customizaton, skills and even down to quality of life in game abilities. If thats your problem then no F2P game is for you even if everyone one does something different. It's there to nickle and dime you over time VS a straight $15 a month that gives you everything. However, there are no hidden costs. it's all there for you to look at and see. It's a buffet of costs for you to choose and pay for. Only pay for what you want and leave the rest off your plate. I know I played LOTRO long enough for well below the monthly subscription by the time you average out my costs for $15 a month and the years I played. SIGH. Quick, number one game in the entire world right now? What is it? League of Legends. A game where you can play 100% free at the absolutely TOP levels of international tournament gameplay just as quickly, efficiently and skilled as someone that drops $1K a week on the game. Their ENTIRE business model revolves around cosmetics and BOOSTS. You unlock "classes" with in game currency and they give you a free set to play with every week. They are the complete OPPOSITE of nickle and dime and they have FORTY times more players than SWTOR. They have more players than WoW GW2 D3 SWTOR AION LOTRO DDO PUT TOGETHER. And they do it by offering a game that is 100% free with 100% NON GAME IMPACTING purchases. That is the number one model in the entire world, SWTOR took one look at it and RAN in the complete OPPOSITE direction. That makes me hang my head in shame for the devs here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maviarab Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Quick, number one game in the entire world right now? What is it? Care to back that up? Would not have been what I'd have said. Neither I bet most people here in this thread either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durasturan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Care to back that up? Would not have been what I'd have said. Neither I bet most people here in this thread either. http://beta.xfire.com/games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durasturan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Care to back that up? Would not have been what I'd have said. Neither I bet most people here in this thread either. The thing is, they put out aesthetics and cosmetic purchases that are fun, interesting, engaging and appeal to their community. SWTOR basically went the other direction and took the easy way out, instead they monetized every quality of life feature. Instead of saying "here look at this shiny new awesome thingy" that everyone including people that had already paid subs would be clawing to buy. they said. "give us five dollars or your gaming experience will be sub-par..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durasturan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Care to back that up? Would not have been what I'd have said. Neither I bet most people here in this thread either. here's a longer article from Forbes about LoL's success. http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngaudiosi/2012/07/11/riot-games-league-of-legends-officially-becomes-most-played-pc-game-in-the-world/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthZak Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) http://beta.xfire.com/games Thats a lie. More people play FarmVille and its cohorts than any other game in history Also: what would F2P players like? And give some alternative solutions to how BW should get profits as well Edited October 18, 2012 by DarthZak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 (edited) SIGH. Quick, number one game in the entire world right now? What is it? League of Legends. A game where you can play 100% free at the absolutely TOP levels of international tournament gameplay just as quickly, efficiently and skilled as someone that drops $1K a week on the game. Their ENTIRE business model revolves around cosmetics and BOOSTS. You unlock "classes" with in game currency and they give you a free set to play with every week. They are the complete OPPOSITE of nickle and dime and they have FORTY times more players than SWTOR. They have more players than WoW GW2 D3 SWTOR AION LOTRO DDO PUT TOGETHER. And they do it by offering a game that is 100% free with 100% NON GAME IMPACTING purchases. That is the number one model in the entire world, SWTOR took one look at it and RAN in the complete OPPOSITE direction. That makes me hang my head in shame for the devs here. and yet it still has the ability to nickle and dime any and all players depending on what is on the buffet they want. Edited October 18, 2012 by Quraswren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Well, to be fair, LoL is the number one game right now with respect to number of players if the studio is to be believed, but it also is a different type of game than SWTOR, or even an MMO to be really fair. That doesn't mean the way they do things there couldnt work here....it just means it's a different type of game. I mean, SIMS is the number one overall PC game series in history with over 52 millions copies sold. I dont think Id be an advocate to switch SWTOR over to a single player or even multiplayer farmville type simulator with DLC packs. Nor would I recommend they switch SWTOR over to phones and change it to falling blocks though Tetris is the number one downloaded game in phone history at 100 million. I think what they have is mostly along the lines of the F2P general framework out there, and with a few adjustments to preferred accounts could be a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galbatorrix Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Clearly. I apologize if you thought that subscribers like myself would pay so you have a 100% free access to all features of the game. The crux of this thread is complaining about the lack of access people who planned to cancel their subscriptions will have. There's no way around that. Of course to try to deflect this they have to make up hypothetical situations of where MANY MANY people will hate this model and it will ultimately fail and their 'solution' is to give these potential members the access that the requester themselves will want for free. Intelligent people on this forum see right through that and Bioware does as well. Their model is pretty standard in the F2P world and will be just fine. If you want these features Bioware wants $15 per month. Which since you are posting here is something you already agree to give them. Yep, nail on the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maviarab Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Interesting indeed Artmeis yes... I used the Tetris argument though as I would imagine a lot of those chess players are playing on a real board, as opposed to across a computer screen...though I could be gravely outdated with that guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durasturan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Well, to be fair, LoL is the number one game right now with respect to number of players if the studio is to be believed, but it also is a different type of game than SWTOR, or even an MMO to be really fair. That doesn't mean the way they do things there couldnt work here....it just means it's a different type of game. I mean, SIMS is the number one overall PC game series in history with over 52 millions copies sold. I dont think Id be an advocate to switch SWTOR over to a single player or even multiplayer farmville type simulator with DLC packs. Nor would I recommend they switch SWTOR over to phones and change it to falling blocks though Tetris is the number one downloaded game in phone history at 100 million. I think what they have is mostly along the lines of the F2P general framework out there, and with a few adjustments to preferred accounts could be a winner. It's the number one game based on INDEPENDENT METRICS LIKE THE ONE I JUST LISTED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beltane Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 http://beta.xfire.com/games Xfire top ten is based on the number of people who not only are xfire members, but are logged into xfire at the time that they play the game. Speaking purely from personal experience, xfire does not seem to be as popular among MMO players who can talk to each other in game as it is for FPS players and other types of gamers. LoL is not a standard MMO. Comparing LoL and TOR is like apples and oranges. That being said, you do have some good points and I personally am not a *huge* fan of TOR's F2P model, but it's also really standard for comparable MMOs. And by comparable MMOs, I mean "not LoL." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durasturan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Xfire top ten is based on the number of people who not only are xfire members, but are logged into xfire at the time that they play the game. Speaking purely from personal experience, xfire does not seem to be as popular among MMO players who can talk to each other in game as it is for FPS players and other types of gamers. LoL is not a standard MMO. Comparing LoL and TOR is like apples and oranges. That being said, you do have some good points and I personally am not a *huge* fan of TOR's F2P model, but it's also really standard for comparable MMOs. And by comparable MMOs, I mean "not LoL." 1. Forbes and other independent sources put it's total user base at around 20M players. It has been independent verified that it is the largest PC GAME in the market. 2. Regardless of x-fire specificity the numbers are INTERNALLY CONSISTENT as you are you using the same metric to measure each of the games and there is no obviously biasing outlier. 3. We are not comparing MMO's we are comparing the relative values of various Free to Play Formats. One: LoL's which is the MOST SUCCESSFUL in the industry, and SWTOR's which has many people both in the community and gaming media questioning it's value and usefulness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I apologize if you thought that subscribers like myself would pay so you have a 100% free access to all features of the game. The crux of this thread is complaining about the lack of access people who planned to cancel their subscriptions will have. There's no way around that. Of course to try to deflect this they have to make up hypothetical situations of where MANY MANY people will hate this model and it will ultimately fail and their 'solution' is to give these potential members the access that the requester themselves will want for free. Intelligent people on this forum see right through that and Bioware does as well. Their model is pretty standard in the F2P world and will be just fine. If you want these features Bioware wants $15 per month. Which since you are posting here is something you already agree to give them. Tim, you're very wrong. I have no plans to cancel either of my 2 accounts, but I AM concerned about the limited play F2P players will have. I'm worried about this game Tim. I'm worried that limiting F2P players to JUST the story, will be MORE than enough for them. They may get a 'taste' of WZ's, but nothing that'll convince them the 4 boxes are worth $15 a month. They may get a chance to run an Op, but again, no reason to pay. They'll ding 50 and quit, because 90% of SWTOR is JUST the STORY, followed by nothing but a giant gear grind! Anyone who creates an alt (or new account) will quickly realize that all of their 'side quests' are identical and they'll LOL at Bioware for asking them to pay $15 a month for it. I'm not suggesting NO LIMITS...that's stupid. But limiting players to 3 WZ's a week is weak. 3 WZ's, given the vast number of problems WZs have, is enough for players to try it, experience a major issue like a short handed team or a complete thrashing from a pre-made or get kicked out for not leaving the spawn area soon enough or get CC'd an entire match or whatever...then they'll be like "meh, not worth $15", log out and go back to some game with PvP that isn't as boring as our 4 flipping boxes. I DO see right through you. I see nothing but anger and hate for anyone who may not like this game as much as you do. Sadly, 4 out of 5 people who paid full price ($60 or more) for this game, don't feel like it's worth $15 a month and F2P changes NOTHING about that. They have an 80% loss rate going right now Tim. Holding back WZ's or Ops doesn't entice people to pay them, hell, there's only 4 of each anyway. We need a way to HOOK new players on more than just those 8 things, not prevent them from ever experiencing them...because really, those 8 things don't compare to the story they get for free from 1-50. A better way to hook players is to make PAYING look like an advantage. More Valor, more Comms, more XP, faster travel, more companions, reduced costs on vendors...the way it's set up, it just gives players KOTOR 3 for $15 and the ability to replay it as they like - the coming design doesn't enhance the MMO experience for paying players at all...it simply exempts F2P players from the gear grinds. Not everyone who feels that the current model of F2P is BAD, feels that way for some self serving reason...some of us actually DO care about this games future and want to see Bioware do something right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 8< --snip -->8 Paragraph 3. First sentence. Was unncessary and uncalled for. You BOTH care about the game. You are BOTH in VIOLENT AGREEMENT when you boil down the sum total of your post histories. I will say with that line stricken the post was a well formed rebuttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 You BOTH care about the game. You are BOTH in VIOLENT AGREEMENT when you boil down the sum total of your post histories. Yes we do, and yes, we are. We want people that come to play this game for free, to stay and PAY for it long term. I think most of us in this entire thread all have that hope because long term, that will only mean great things for SWTOR! I WISH they'd have limited the story to JUST act 1, allowed unlimited WZ's (with reduced returns), unlimited FP's and Ops (with reduced returns) and kept the story locked for acts 2, 3 and beyond. The stuff they're asking people to pay for, just isn't that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiritinblack Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Tux, You get a +9000 I am not saying I agree or disagree with what you wrote. But that post is the best post I have ever seen from you. It is clear and concise. Well written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Tux, You get a +9000 I am not saying I agree or disagree with what you wrote. But that post is the best post I have ever seen from you. It is clear and concise. Well written. Thank you!!! Considering how much I post...I think that could either be a compliment, or an insult Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Thank you!!! Considering how much I post...I think that could either be a compliment, or an insult Until I get my statue it surely must be the latter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiritinblack Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Thank you!!! Considering how much I post...I think that could either be a compliment, or an insult It's a compliment. It's hard for alot of us on these forums. We try to convey what we want, or how we feel the game should be. And even though we sometimes never get it to come out right, ( even though in our head it makes sense), it just shows how much we really DO care about this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim-ONeil Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Additionally TUXs it would foolish of me to lump EVERYONE in this thread into that mold I posted. I understand fully that your intentions are noble, however many of these arguments are not. Alas I suggest we leave it up to the expects at EA/Bioware and wait and see. If there is anything people give EA credit for it's finding a way to milk subscribers for profit. That's not evil though, that's good business though many people won't agree with that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kheld Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Yes we do, and yes, we are. We want people that come to play this game for free, to stay and PAY for it long term. I think most of us in this entire thread all have that hope because long term, that will only mean great things for SWTOR! I WISH they'd have limited the story to JUST act 1, allowed unlimited WZ's (with reduced returns), unlimited FP's and Ops (with reduced returns) and kept the story locked for acts 2, 3 and beyond. The stuff they're asking people to pay for, just isn't that good. QFT. The story is the best bit of the game. Letting f2p players have access to it all is a big mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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