Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Sharee]

Alright, now what if the kids he plays with are working on their game and .... one of the kids he plays with is the next Maradona ?

 

Does he stop playing soccer altogether with his friends, does he go to his parents to ask them to move and relocate the house around a playground where other kids suck at soccer ?

 

What normally happens in cases like this is that the kids naturally try to achieve balance by either teaming the especially bad players with that future maradona, or even move a player from his team to the weaker side.

 

They certainly would NOT put all the strong players on one side and lose 16-0 over and over again.

[Sharee]

No MMO worth its salt, EVER would EVER do anything to discourage people from grouping together. On a deep fundamental level that more than any number of people dissatisfied with fighting premades, relationships built through mutual play experience keep people in MMO's. Making it so people can't play with their friends drives them away from them.

 

Oh boy. That's what you get from not reading the thread(not that i blame you )

 

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/05/blizzard-takes-a-stand-against-pre-mades-battleground-groups/

 

a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

[Jadescythe]

As usual, this whole argument is ridiculous. However you feel about premade v pugs, it can't change under the current circumstances. There is no reason to stop people form playing in groups and the player base can't support a 3rd queue option and still have warzones happening at even 1/10th of the speed they do now. Move on.

[Xooey]

I agree that the most fun and exciting matches are the tough ones, where no one side holds an extreme advantage. That being said, I rarely solo queue and put being able to group with my friends at a premium. I think there generally is some matchmaking in place as with a group you are generally up against another group (though not all groups are created equal).

 

In an ideal world (and Blizzard has as close to that in mmo-land as possible with number of subs, funding, and infrastructure in place) everyone would be able to play exactly as they want - but SWTOR does not have the variables to make this happen. With larger numbers of players pvping or cross-realm it would probably be easier to put in multiple tracks of casual queue to achieve this result - but in the current game state it would lead to queue times that would be bad to start with and then continue to atrophy as people became frustrated.

 

I believe the best case scenario would be to tighten the matchmaking I think is already in place (to make sure there was never a true pug vs. 4-man scenario, 3 healers vs none, etc). I'll caveat that sometimes you don't like what you get even in this scenario, however, because a *bad* 4 man is worse than a solid pug. Yes, a team coordinates better than pugs can, but a bad team exponentially multiplies their bad through this coordination and just loses the wz for you.

[Sharee]

As usual, this whole argument is ridiculous. However you feel about premade v pugs, it can't change under the current circumstances. There is no reason to stop people form playing in groups and the player base can't support a 3rd queue option and still have warzones happening at even 1/10th of the speed they do now. Move on.

 

I'm not asking to stop people from playing in groups, nor for a 3rd queue. I'm asking for a checkbox on the 'join warzone' UI, that only affects me, and when checked, will ensure that i will not be placed in a warzone with players that joined as a group.

 

"I only want to play with players that also queued solo" is what it would be called.

 

Players who want to queue as group still can. Solo players that don't mind playing with/against premades still can. And if this alone makes the queues unbearably long for groups it would mean one thing: the majority of the playerbase wants to play this way, and the feature made a lot of people happy.

[Arlanon]

I'm not asking to stop people from playing in groups, nor for a 3rd queue. I'm asking for a checkbox on the 'join warzone' UI, that only affects me, and when checked, will ensure that i will not be placed in a warzone with players that joined as a group.

 

That would be a 3rd queue, bro

 

The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

 

I would fully support add-ons in SWTOR if we could have a ragequitter announcement

Edited May 26, 2013 by Arlanon

[Ajuntalee]

as right as it wuold serve as a third queue, it would also ensure people don't leave WZs and that when you enter as a team,

 

You don't have 4 clickers who came here to farm their PvP dailys without putting up any efforts.

You don't have rage quitters who can't stand premades or voice comm groups edge and leave the WZs unmanned , the WZ ending on a flip a coin and people going back to queue.

 

besides in the background the actuall system already works towards splitting soloer and non soloers apart, this "check box" would just give more data to the matchmaking engine,

and improve the queuing time for people who are tolerant of premades and for premades,

while having people who are a-nal about being exclusively matched with other soloers pay the whole queing time debt.

[foxmob]

You don't have 4 clickers who came here to farm their PvP dailys without putting up any efforts..

 

are you talking about 4 clickers being the premade or the random pugs? cuz I'd love to face off against a premade of 4 clickers. luls

[L-RANDLE]

1. The reason premades are not in rated is because there are no rated ques or players are trying to finish a daily/weekly. Most would probably care less, who they face. The point is to complete the task asap. Sure it might be "selfish", but it has nothing to do with them wanting to roll people for epeen 99% of the time. When I roll with guildies(like once or twice a week) I don't even bother logging into TS. They know how to play, and don't need coaching or "watching" to make sure they are doing what they are suposse to be doing. We don't even need to speak to each other, and typically are rofl at something totally unrelated to the WZ when we are on TS.

 

2. Do you consider 1 PuG stomping another "fair"? There is no such thing as a fair fight in this game. Premade or not, gear or not, class or not, 3 on 1/4 on 1 or not, good team comp or not, skilled or not. A ton of factors contribute to PvP puzzle. Yes, premade can sway the odds to be more in your favor, but what about all the rest of the factors? Oh I know, premades are why WZ suck, and is the only explaination.

 

3. An "effortless" win is no different from a "hard earned" win... Same thing with losing... Its just a matter of learning to accept it/moving on/getting better or complain/ask for a design change/it's not me; it's you. People who complain about premades are mostly the latter and only want "token competition". If you sign up for PuGin', then you got to take the good with the bad... but people just quit a WZ when a premade is around cause its an easy way out instead of using it to learn about said premade...

4. And no, we don't need separate ques... Not at this point.. Split ques=No ques. That would actually be like removing life-support... They already tossed peeps a life jacket with the trivializing of gearing up in 1.6, so I am going to put my crash helmet and prepare for more premade QQ, cause it's coming..

 

Funny how this still applies.

"Didn't Lolster fix this?"

"Nope, bads will be bads. Don't blame me because my friends are better than your friends."

[Yestreen]

This is an mmo. Premade groups are part of an mmo. Your 3rd queue system will never get implemented.

 

Therefore, if you really, really want to win warzones:

 

1. Learn to play (learn your class, learn wz tactics/positioning, keybind your abilities etc)

2. Make your own premade.

[weprisko]

stop posting nonsense about premade and new queue pls

1) that fail company wouldnt allow that

2) pvp in this game is only minigame

3) premades would cry like babies if they would be matched with other premades and be forced to actually fight for daily quests

4) if u pug just be prepared to be smashed on the sight and just dont give a **** or move to another game

 

btw to all who said something like premades are part of MMO - sure. it is. its same as premades for pve. and do u think r50 grp join to complete some lvl 10 FP? or 2+ lvl 6 heroics? no. cuz they want challenge and rewards equal to their rank. pvp players just cant grasp it but its their problem they are that short sighted. pvp in this game is joke and u get gear without any effort. u lost 10 matches in row? who the hell cares? u still get your gear. when u offer players easymode u have to continue or bads would qq

[TonyDragonflame]

btw to all who said something like premades are part of MMO - sure. it is. its same as premades for pve. and do u think r50 grp join to complete some lvl 10 FP? or 2+ lvl 6 heroics? no. cuz they want challenge and rewards equal to their rank

 

Please, make me possible playin' for any pve boss, for example Soa, and i promise for any pve premades great challenge, surprise mechanics and TerriNightmare mode

Edited May 26, 2013 by TonyDragonflame

[weprisko]

Please, make me possible playin' for any pve boss, for example Soa, and i promise for any pve premades great challenge, surprise mechanics and TerriNightmare mode

 

I think u just trying to tell us pve for organised grp do not offer challenge at all. Sure. But try to compare it to low rank pve. When high rank grp complete it just by unarmed attacks in matter of minutes what kind of rewards do they get? Equal to their rank? Nope.

 

Thats the main difference between pvp and pve in this game. U can make premade, storm some pugs without problems and get reward same as if u have to fight for it in rare cases when matchmaking accidentally match premade vs premade.

[SajPl]

I think u just trying to tell us pve for organised grp do not offer challenge at all. Sure. But try to compare it to low rank pve. When high rank grp complete it just by unarmed attacks in matter of minutes what kind of rewards do they get? Equal to their rank? Nope.

 

Thats the main difference between pvp and pve in this game. U can make premade, storm some pugs without problems and get reward same as if u have to fight for it in rare cases when matchmaking accidentally match premade vs premade.

 

I make a pve preamde, roll over SOA in EV and get a reward. Your point is?

Edited May 26, 2013 by SajPl

[deedeede]

I make a pve preamde, roll over SOA in EV and get a reward. Your point is?

 

hint: SOA in EV will never post in forums

[weprisko]

I make a pve preamde, roll over SOA in EV and get a reward. Your point is?

 

point is - u get same rewards for win vs premade and same reward for owning some pugs

[MidichIorian]

Most people assume that all premades are good. They're not! The only thing that is true about the vast majority, if not all, premades is that the players in them will represent a tiny stretch in the skill span. You rarely to never see a top player form a premade with a baddie.There's much more skill disparity in a pug.

 

The point is; Do you want the premade to almost always determine the oucome of games? I don't, which is why I don't want to play with them.

 

Today, as I was trying pvp on the imp side, I had to sit through three straight games with the same horrible premade on my team. I knew from the start that we were going to lose because it would pretty much require that the 8 players on the other team all played the game through a straw for there to be some balance. Fun, not so much. I was trying to heal them, which is a completely useless task. Just to give you an idea what we're dealing with here, the team had two kills on CW: TWO KILLS!!

 

At the end of the spectrum we have the good premades, premades that would have won with or without you. So as a pug player you might aswell AFK because with the skill disparity between two different premades or a premade vs pug you won't contribute much to the outcome of the game anyway.

 

Hence, we need player ratings and x-server or atleast active ratings during primetime when there are enough people online to support such a system.

Edited May 26, 2013 by MidichIorian

[foxmob]

Most people assume that all premades are good..

 

I'm pretty sure nobody assumes that. however, one great player isn't going to step on 8 average or below players. 4 great players most definitely will, and it's obvious when it happens. hence the complaints.

[DarthSabreth]

I'm pretty sure nobody assumes that. however, one great player isn't going to step on 8 average or below players. 4 great players most definitely will, and it's obvious when it happens. hence the complaints.

 

Very well put, the pvp in this game is stale, who wants to be held at bay gear wise by the dominant guilds. by default teams of 4 should be sent into the rated ques and married up with other 4 man / 8 man groups.

 

all premades are doing is discouraging other players mostly the crowd that BW is trying to attract. but since BW practicly "Seems" to go out of their way to do the exact opposite that the community wants, its not likely anything will be done about this. this has to be the largest thread in their forums and still has fallen on deaf ears. I highly doubt they even read the forums. Patch 1.4 proved that fact.

Edited May 27, 2013 by DarthSabreth

[SajPl]

So the conclusion of this thread is : you people are crying about good players grouping together and that you loose to them. Your suggested solution is banning premades so the good players have to carry you bads, now that is not the point of pvp. LEARN TO PLAY and carry yourselves.

[Zhaker]

I love how people are clinging on hope to ban premades to make WZ even.

 

It never will.

 

What happens if Empire or Republic dominate for 2 hours in any time of day with PuG vs PuG? You want to ban them from playing after 2 or so games because they're too l33t?

 

You people make me sick, you non pre-mades are why I am driven to pre-made, to avoid you *********** bads. I cant and dont work with people that dont want to put in the effort to win. I always have to yell and scream to get my point across which surprisingly works. I shouldnt need to yell but it seems to *********** work. So I keep *********** doing it.

 

If you guys were trying to win then premades wouldnt be a big issue in the first place.

[sauerkraut]

I love how people are clinging on hope to ban premades to make WZ even.

 

It never will.

 

What happens if Empire or Republic dominate for 2 hours in any time of day with PuG vs PuG? You want to ban them from playing after 2 or so games because they're too l33t?

 

You people make me sick, you non pre-mades are why I am driven to pre-made, to avoid you *********** bads. I cant and dont work with people that dont want to put in the effort to win. I always have to yell and scream to get my point across which surprisingly works. I shouldnt need to yell but it seems to *********** work. So I keep *********** doing it.

 

If you guys were trying to win then premades wouldnt be a big issue in the first place.

 

But still, you are here and begging for the chance to play against PUGs. Why is it? Why don't you wanna play against other premades?

[Ajuntalee]

3) premades would cry like babies if they would be matched with other premades and be forced to actually fight for daily quests

 

I somehow fail to see a premade grouping together for only a few WZ and disband after finishing their pvp dailies, I do PvP for the sake of oing PvP, when I group in premade it is to do good **** and pull a teamplay A game, not to go cheesy mode to finish my dailies faster most of the time I don't even bother taking them.

 

I am pretty happy if i get matched to other premades or good PUGS, I know they won't be over stuffed because the bolster system ensures the diffrence is mild, so I you play right as a group and as an individual, you may lose but you can pull an intense match, and that is what pvp is all about, having fun and PLAYING something interesting, PVE is dull, roflstomping PUGS is just as dull, it is enjoyable everyonce in a while, but if that was it all day, I 'd just move on.

 

I do an average of 20-30 matches a day some in PUGs some in premades, people who like pvp care very little about daylies and weeklies, when people speak "premade" here they refer more about dedicated PvPers "premades" rather than non PVP centered guildies grouping in a "premade" for 30 minutes chatting/ranting on voicecomms and whatnot, farming their dailies because their was noone to do a flashpoint, or the h4 they wanted.

 

4) if u pug just be prepared to be smashed on the sight and just dont give a **** or move to another game

 

That, yeah but bad players are bad players for a reason, they are lazy scrubs, they ll be just as bad, just as lazy and just as scrubby on any other game.

 

They strive on MMO cause that used to be the only type of games where shear farming can give you enough stuff to destroy player you 'd never get a go at on even grounds, then they discover there is always someone worse than they are who can farm more than they can't destroy and that itemization unbalance works both ways.

 

So yeah there are bad premades, and good premades , bad pugs and good pugs, there is no end to this argument, ergo the 100+ pages of ranting we ve produced on the subject.

 

The only good idea I ve read on the subject to improve the already good matchmaking engine is to give said matchmaking engine more data by implementing the :

 

'I am anal about not being matched with premades and I am willing to wait longer to get in a PUG only match" checkbox

 

90% of the player base doesn't give a flying **** about who they are matched with/against and if they do they join/form a premade and the 10% who care are the only ones going to queue longer to get a match ( but shorter to join a match worth playing according to their criteria ) it is a win win

 

1 - We get less whining on forums and once they understand they suck even against other solo pugs maybee they'll understand a big thing about themselve that is going to serve them the for rest of their lives :

 

people are NOT born equal, and it is TOO LATE to fix that, but you can WORK around your shortcomings.

 

2 - every body gets matched to people they accept playing against

 

3 - 90% of the pvp player base will wait way shorter than now,

cause the engine will not delay a match of [ 4 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 ] vs [ 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 +1 ] waiting for a better chance of matching a [ 4 + 2 + 2] vs [ 3 + 3 + 2] and [2 + 6 solos ] vs [ 8 solos ]

 

4 - 10% of the player base will queue way longer until they find 15 other poeple like them to launch a [8 solos ] vs [8 solos ] but they will only play matches they like

 

 

.

[weprisko]

@Ajuntalee

about your 'I am anal about not being matched with premades and I am willing to wait longer to get in a PUG only match" checkbox

 

its pretty one sided statement. what about "Our premade is too scared to be matched with premades so we are willing to wait to get in wz with pugs" ?

 

I think u might be pretty surprised who would be affected the most by that checkbox. Im pretty sure it would be premades. cuz usually its 4 man premade and 12 pugs.

 

I agree with you. Some players are bad. They do not want to improve, they just dont give a **** and just want to be able to win even when they do not try hard enough. Sure u cannot win all the time. Sometimes u can loose even to pugs that are just solid players/have better classes. Pug vs pug wont magically make it balanced. Sometimes its great to have 4 man premade when other 4 players suck hard. It might just show to these players who join pug and cry how its unfair premade stomped them that they arent trying hard enough and lack some basics, cooperation, skill or whatever and that this is the main reason why they are losing. And give solid players chance to prove themselves.

 

Losing wz without any chance to fight back (6-0 huttball, unable to retake objectives...) make players frustrated. Losing after a bit balanced fight might give players feel that it wasnt so bad but they need to improve or work together better. I have even seen some "ok guys, its premade, leave or just let them cap if u need daily quest" post in wz. and then its hard to fight when half of your team already gave up. same its terrible when u make some premade and your enemies give up after 2mins so u r just afk near objective and waiting for end or to kill some loner that do not want to give up.

[Ajuntalee]

its pretty one sided statement. what about "Our premade is too scared to be matched with premades so we are willing to wait to get in wz with pugs" ?

 

Fixed as well,

 

your scared ******* premade get less solo lazy scrubs, and more competitive solos and other premades, real one or ***** ones like themselves.

 

TBH I have nothing against a " We are a premade of ranting ******* who only want to get matched against inferior ******* premades and poorly performing players " checkbox.

 

but i feel that such people should not be given what they require,

 

while on the other hand I see nothing wrong with being anal about doing solos vs solos exclusively if in return you are willing to wait more for it. As i said it is a win win for everyone, because the rest of people who are more tolerant about matchmaking will wait lees.

 

Now rest assured people at bioware will find a way to label that check box in a not hurtfull for feelings fashion. like

 

" Avoid teams ( checking this will increase your waiting time) " and an error message " You cannot queue as a group for solo exlusive matches "when clicking "queue as a group" with the checkbox enabled.

 

cuz usually its 4 man premade and 12 pugs.

 

Not in my experience. but I concede yours can be diffrent.

 

if there was no fair matchmaking engine, the premades could be a problem, the importance of disparities is toned down, but that is not enough for you , I don't see better solutions than

 

A - what it is now.

and

B - what it would be with the solo only checkbox.

 

The current system suits me and most of the player base, when I play solo, when i play with not pvp centered guildies, and when i play with a tailored premade.

 

1 - I'd hate waiting longer to play exclusively with FFA lemmings when i queue alone.

2- Waiting ages to enter a premades vs premades playing FFA lemmings with my non pvp centered guildies who like a casual guild pvp against a tailored premade bored to death by our poor performance.

3 - waiting ages with a tailored premade only to be matched against a casual guild premade of FFA lemmings, boring us to death by their poor performance.

 

The other solutions I ve read would imopose that to me and the 90% of the player base for whom the system is okay, just to sastisfy the select few who are never happy about anything,

 

Just my 2cents, it migfht sound stern but , get over it, 90% of tolerants don't have to bend over to satisfy the 10% that are always complaining no matter how many we have already put up to help.

 

I have even seen some "ok guys, its premade, leave or just let them cap if u need daily quest" post in wz. and then its hard to fight when half of your team already gave up. same its terrible when u make some premade and your enemies give up after 2mins so u r just afk near objective and waiting for end or to kill some loner that do not want to give up.

 

They 'll do the same in full 8 solos vs 8 solos, if the BG doesn't go their way, seen it before, seen it yesterday evening, 2 alderandes enemy has 2 nodes we have one, at 5 minutes halth the team gives up and camp on our node.

 

What these players want to do, is unfold their charcter's rotation on a random enemy defnding a node that enemies are hopelessly trying to cap, that enemy dies under their blows and win the bg with respectable dps chart score and 15+ medall about which they can brag about on their guild chat or comms.

 

They don't want to wait 40 secs after respawn to coordonate a bait for the ennemy team on a node with the resilient CORE while mounting a sneakies drop on the solo/pair of defenders on the seemingly unattacked node. ( or whatever other tactic you can come up with to checkmate the enemy team's routine).

 

they don't understand you can't cap a side node on alderande once there are more than 3 defenders.

 

Scrubs don't understand, they are too lazy for that, they complain, and will complain until the rest of the world play the game well enough to look challenging but let them win hand down in the end, like papa did when they were childs to help them grow their self-confidence.

 

Nothing the devs can do will change that, and at the same time, most things the scrubs ask for will make the game dull and unattracting for the rest of us, the vast majority of the player base.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Ajuntalee