Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Kontraz]

Let's try to use some formal logic on this one.

 

The proposed premise:

"It's not fair, a premade is needed to win."

with the added addendum:

"I don't want to form a premade."

therefore:

"It's not fair, I don't want to do what is needed to win."

 

If both of the proposed premises are true (which, according to many arguing against premades, they are) then the conclusion is true by definition. There you have it. The conclusion is that people just don't want to do what is needed to win. That is the anti-premade argument broken down into its base form, and quite frankly, seems ridiculous.

[harokiti]

You don't actually need to solo pvp ! TBH why even bother joining a guild if you're not going to hang out with them. If I'm doing lowbie pvp or level 55 pvp I will always ask in guild if anyone wants to join me as it enhances the social experience of the game. At least when I get a pop and come up against a team of smashers and feel like i'm lit up like a christmas tree getting my *** handed to me on a plate I don't mind so much when I have someone to share the pain/laughs with.

 

I accept your comments about unbalanced groups it should be a bit more like group finder where you get a fair balance but really that doesn't stop someone queueing as one thing and then respeccing in the field to something else.

 

I tried my first ranked experience last week and basically between 8pm-10pm we got 3 games all the rest of the time was waiting for a pop so that can be pretty tiresome I understand why these people queue for normals. They pay to play this game like everyone else why should they be penalised because they want to play in a team.

 

I don't think its fair to complain about players wanting to play together you sound like your a sore looser if you ask me. Maybe when players learn to read ops chat and gain some organization skills the solo queuing would be more of an option but when I queue solo I just see 8 players running around like headless chickens! Or players that choose to call for help at a turret or door when they are dead not when they see the incoming. Can you honestly say that you are unhappy when you enter a wz and have 4 players from same guild on your team and win a huttball or novare coast in less then 10mins? or is it just when you come up against a team like that? as it works both ways and you have to take the rough with the smooth.

[Alkazarr]

Premades are fine. It's the guild that matters mostly. Some premades are lqughable, others a death sentence.

Thank god theres only a handful of real pvp guilds per server you got to watch out for.

 

The other premades are generally ust as effective as pugs. All in all, its working as intended.

 

Unless of course good players teaming up together is against the EULA...in which case, what kind of mmo is this lol

[Sharee]

"If you want to get better at warzones I would encourage you to do a couple of things:"

 

What the premade supporters fail to realize is that the solo queuers DO NOT want to get better at warzones. What they want is quick fun fight against enemies with the same skill / lack of skill as they have. It does not matter whether both sides are mediocre or just plain bad, as long as one does not dominate the game will be fun for both.

 

Because, seriously, what's wrong with that? Does every kid who wants to play a quick game of soccer in the backyard HAVE to first work on himself to become a new Maradona before they can hope to have any fun? No. He just plays against other kids who also are not very good, and that balance of two 'not very good' actually makes for a fun game.

 

All these "you just have to do X and Y and then you will have no problem with premades" posts totally miss the point.

[Alkazarr]

What the premade supporters fail to realize is that the solo queuers DO NOT want to get better at warzones. What they want is quick fun fight against enemies with the same skill / lack of skill as they h a ipave. It does not matter whether both sides are mediocre or just plain bad, as long as one does not dominate the game will be fun for both.

 

Because, seriously, what's wrong with that? Does every kid who wants to play a quick game of soccer in the backyard HAVE to first work on himself to become a new Maradona before they can hope to have any fun? No. He just plays against other kids who also are not very good, and that balance of two 'not very good' actually makes for a fun game.

 

All these "you just have to do X and Y and then you will have no problem with premades" posts totally miss the point.

 

While i appreciate the honesty in your post and your reasons against premades but what uoure hoping for is sadly impossible/improbableas it would increase queue time drastically.

 

Also good luck trying to write the algorythm that will sort out bads and good pvpers

 

Besidws theres only a handful of premades to look out for per server so premades being a nghtmare to beat is an overexaggeration.

[Sharee]

While i appreciate the honesty in your post and your reasons against premades but what uoure hoping for is sadly impossible/improbableas it would increase queue time drastically.

 

Also good luck trying to write the algorythm that will sort out bads and good pvpers

 

Besidws theres only a handful of premades to look out for per server so premades being a nghtmare to beat is an overexaggeration.

 

1, A checkbox 'i only want to play against players who also queued solo' on the join warzone UI would not create a second queue. It would simply allow players who don't want to face premades to get just that. If such a checkbox increases queue times drastically then guess what: majority of players do not want to face premades. I don't see why they should be forced to against their will.

 

2, if all players in a warzone queued solo, no algorith for sorting bad players from good ones will be needed - simple randomness will take care of that. Over time, the good and bad players will be mixed equally in both teams.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Sharee

[SajPl]

To bads : there is an option not to face premades. Dont que.

[Sharee]

To bads : there is an option not to face premades. Dont que.

 

Making fun of 'bads' while the premade queues for normal instead of rateds. I find that somewhat ironic.

[SajPl]

Making fun of 'bads' while the premade queues for normal instead of rateds. I find that somewhat ironic.

 

I find it ironic that me and my firiend score 2 goals and the bads on our team go all out moron-mode and let the enemy score 3 goals in 30 seconds and the bads on our team still do not go out of moron-mode and keep ignoring the ball. Its not the premades that are ruining pvp its the morons .

Also please remind me wheres the ranked buton for those completly overpowered 2 man premades.

Edited May 26, 2013 by SajPl

[Kontraz]

What the premade supporters fail to realize is that the solo queuers DO NOT want to get better at warzones.

 

Then keep dying and keep crying. Catering to your needs because you don't want to step up your game is not the responsibility of a game developer. If it is too difficult for you, then don't queue.

 

This isn't trying to sound elitist, just stern. I get my butt kicked all the time. It's a learning experience. I primarily queue solo, but I have no problem whatsoever with premades running around.

[Sharee]

I find it ironic that me and my firiend score 2 goals and the bads on our team go all out moron-mode and let the enemy score 3 goals in 30 seconds and the bads on our team still do not go out of moron-mode and keep ignoring the ball. Its not the premades that are ruining pvp its the morons .

Also please remind me wheres the ranked buton for those completly overpowered 2 man premades.

 

If you're so good and competitive you should join up with 6 more 'goods' and go rated. Or is that too scary?

[SajPl]

If you're so good and competitive you should join up with 6 more 'goods' and go rated. Or is that too scary?

 

If you are so "bad" you should keep getting rolled over - its only natural that the better team wins.

[Sharee]

If you are so "bad" you should keep getting rolled over - its only natural that the better team wins.

 

Yes, that's why NHL teams kick the arse of junior highschool hockey teams ALL THE TIM... oh wait.

[Sharee]

Catering to your needs because you don't want to step up your game is not the responsibility of a game developer.

 

Right back at you. Catering to YOUR needs(to stomp pugs) just because you are too chicken to queue for rateds is not the responsibility of a game developer.

[Kontraz]

If you're so good and competitive you should join up with 6 more 'goods' and go rated. Or is that too scary?

 

the rateds argument is done to death. A few good reasons to not do rateds on a whim:

 

1) You need to have a full, proper team composition all in top gear (min/maxed) with working synergy to be truly competitive.

 

2) Unlike in general queues, your ranking is monitored. There is a penalty for not performing well, hence the need for #1.

 

3) Queue times. Typically people will try to coordinate a time for multiple teams on the server to queue, or post that their guild will be queuing its ranked team at a certain time. Other than that, you can easily be waiting in queue for over an hour. And the solution isn't "well, all premades should be forced into it!" Why? See #1 and #2.

 

Has nothing to do with "scary". It has everything to do with preparedness. Being good might qualify you for a duel, but ranked is a different beast.

[Kontraz]

Right back at you. Catering to YOUR needs(to stomp pugs) just because you are too chicken to queue for rateds is not the responsibility of a game developer.

 

I am not asking to be catered to. And if you bothered to read my post, I even said I queue solo the majority of the time. The fact that you are demanding change because you find the current situation too difficult is asking for the developers to cater to you.

[Sharee]

the rateds argument is done to death. A few good reasons to not do rateds on a whim:

 

1) You need to have a full, proper team composition all in top gear (min/maxed) with working synergy to be truly competitive.

 

2) Unlike in general queues, your ranking is monitored. There is a penalty for not performing well, hence the need for #1.

 

3) Queue times. Typically people will try to coordinate a time for multiple teams on the server to queue, or post that their guild will be queuing its ranked team at a certain time. Other than that, you can easily be waiting in queue for over an hour. And the solution isn't "well, all premades should be forced into it!" Why? See #1 and #2.

 

Has nothing to do with "scary". It has everything to do with preparedness. Being good might qualify you for a duel, but ranked is a different beast.

 

I call it hypocrisy. You give the solos a laundry list of what to do when they want to do good against premades, but when presented with a laundry list of you r own of what to do to play successfully in rateds, suddenly it's 'oooh so hard'.

[Sharee]

I am not asking to be catered to.

 

Right. You're just asking that other players who want to pvp but have no interest to fight your premade continue to be forced to do so against their will.

 

If that is not asking to cater to your needs i don't know what is.

[Kontraz]

I call it hypocrisy. You give the solos a laundry list of what to do when they want to do good against premades, but when presented with a laundry list of you r own of what to do to play successfully in rateds, suddenly it's 'oooh so hard'.

 

why laundry list have I given soloers? Other than deal with it, get better, make a premade of your own, and/or stop crying. Those are four individual options, not a list. Pick one, (or better yet, all).

 

And I never once said the laundry list was "ooooh so hard". It's easily accomplished, but it takes time. Let's go through the list.

 

1) Assemble the team, gear up, practice together. The only viable way to do this is through standard matches. You can gear up individual players and speculate to their ability, but you need to work with them in order to actually get prepared.

 

2) With a proper team, the rating be affected won't be an issue. If you lose with your prepared team, you earned the loss.

 

3) Not exactly productive waiting around hoping for another team to show up.

 

 

Refuting an argument with little more than a thinly veiled personal attack does not support your position very well. :\

[Kontraz]

Right. You're just asking that other players who want to pvp but have no interest to fight your premade continue to be forced to do so against their will.

 

If that is not asking to cater to your needs i don't know what is.

 

Nobody is being forced to do anything against their will at all. From the very start of the game, teams of four have been able to queue. It has been common knowledge about the way warzones here work for a year and a half. If they don't like it, they don't have to participate. To demand change for your own perceived benefit of a system in place is likable to being catered to. Making a claim that things are fine as is is little more than a request to maintain the current status quo.

[Sharee]

As much as i hate to use other games as example, this is an official statement from an unnamed company that however very much applies to swtor as well:

 

I'll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

 

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage. That is not in the spirit of the experience we want to provide in the normal Battleground queue. Playing with friends is fun and important, but it shouldn't come at the expense of the spirit of the game nor the fun of others.

 

The normal Battleground queue is for players to jump in and play against other players in a similar situation. We realize that it's not a perfect system, and we're still looking at ways to improve normal Battleground queues further. Regardless, it's not meant for organized groups to "pug stomp" and get quick Honor. We have built in outlets for players that want to organize--if a competitive, social experience was really the goal, then there are clear ways to achieve that.

 

The ultimate effect that this kind of queuing has had is to drive players away from PvP. Perhaps it's been a long time since you've been in a random group, but a lot of players will see that they're up against a premade and simply quit. At best, they suffer through it. To an extent premade groups count on this. Heck, one of the popular addons announces opposing players that appear to have rage quit.

 

Addons aren't really a viable solution for botting issues, but we do take those issues seriously and we'll continue our work on improvements to the Battleground system, including better ways to deal with botting and other exploitative gameplay.

 

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/05/blizzard-takes-a-stand-against-pre-mades-battleground-groups/

Edited May 26, 2013 by Sharee

[Sharee]

Nobody is being forced to do anything against their will at all. .

 

False. A player who wants to pvp but does not wish to face a premade group has no way to prevent it from happening. Thus, as long as he wishes to pvp, he is forced to potentially face a premade, against his will.

[Kontraz]

False. A player who wants to pvp but does not wish to face a premade group has no way to prevent it from happening. Thus, as long as he wishes to pvp, he is forced to potentially face a premade, against his will.

 

I don't think you understand the term "forced" if this is the case. Placing a conditional (and in this case, a desired conditional) implies mandatory free will in the scenario. They are not "forced" to do anything at all.

 

But we are arguing semantics, which isn't productive.

[Sharee]

I don't think you understand the term "forced" if this is the case. Placing a conditional (and in this case, a desired conditional) implies mandatory free will in the scenario. They are not "forced" to do anything at all.

 

But we are arguing semantics, which isn't productive.

 

The only free will expressed is the will to pvp, which is a default in this scenario(since the whole issue ONLY affects people who wish to pvp).

 

Your argument is like telling the guy who was robbed in a dark alley at gunpoint that he was not forced to give the robber his money because he went outside of his safe home of his own free will.

[Kontraz]

As much as i hate to use other games as example, this is an official statement from an unnamed company that however very much applies to swtor as well:

 

 

 

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/05/blizzard-takes-a-stand-against-pre-mades-battleground-groups/

 

While similar, the activities of WoW in this case do not apply to SWTOR for two reasons in my opinion. The first being battlegrounds function on a larger scale than warzones. The more PUGs on a team, the more chaotic, and this grows exponentially (again, in my opinion) the larger the group. The second, and primary reason I don't think this directly applies, is that WoW's system was never intended to support groups in standard battlegrounds (as stated in the article, this is only achieved through addons). SWTOR, adversely, had grouping of four available for their warzones from the very start - hence working as intended.

 

I've said this before, I would be all for having three tiers - Ranked, Group (2,3,and 4 in the same bracket) and PUG if we had the player base, cross-server queues, or both. However, we do not. It is restricted to the two options. Any attempt to restrict queues even further at this point would be detrimental to PvP. So much, I would imagine there would be (another) mass exodus from the game's subscriber base.