Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Sharee]

nope formal logic was not broken, it is formal logic after all...

 

That depends on what you understand under "broken logic". I meant it as "1. an incorrect or misleading notion or opinion based on inaccurate facts or invalid reasoning"(this is from a dictionary). His was based on inaccurate facts("You need a premade to win" is inaccurate. )

Edited May 28, 2013 by Sharee

[Ajuntalee]

you are digressing sharee,

 

Did kontraz try to influence credibility by pushing credit into a false conclusion with the help of a flawless reasonment concealing a false hypothesis behind it. yeah maybee it is one of the oldest tricks in the book.

 

Nevertheless, his second iteration is much better and much more difficult to be proven false, you have to give him that.

 

No matter how you like to take it but he managed intetionally or not to make you trip on something you probably generally grasp but that you are obviously not trained to formally speak about, probably because it is not your strong suit, or it is a bit dusty in your memory.

 

It doesn't prove anything definetely, as he said, but neither can you, he just sounded genuine, while you sound loopholing.

 

you also have to give him modesty in the way he presents claims, premises and statements something most posters can't be awarded.

 

all this doesn't change anything to the fact that this problem's current's best solution is still the :

 

"I dont wan't premades in the WZs I am queuing for and i understand it might take accordingly longer to enter a match" CHECKBOX

[otherworlder]

One would like to assume for the sake of humanity's soul that everyone's ideal goal in PvP would be the following:

 

Win or lose, both teams are competitive and all players are enjoying themselves. All players on the field are (within reason) equally entertained by their chosen pastime.

 

No one on either side of this argument can possibly state that the above is achieved when 4 man premades spend hours pugstomping more casual players or those, like myself, who simply don't enjoy the mentality so prevalent in a premade team or pvp guild. Players like myself don't mind losing. I've had more fun in losing matches than winning ones, very often. What's never fun is being ground into dust with no hope of a fair fight, or even scoring a kill.

 

Skill is irrelevant. It's not the issue and it never has been. You can find awful players or excellent players on a PUG team or in a hardcore PVP guild. The relevant question is something Blizzard understands, and players like Sharee and others who've posted here understand:

 

Isn't it a more desirable and healthy goal for everyone on the field to have fun, than for half of the players on the field to have fun at the expense of the other half?

 

If you think you're entitled to enjoy yourself at someone else's expense, take a long look in a mirror and ask yourself why you feel that way. Remember that we're all human beings and we're all trying to enjoy the same game here, folks, regardless of how we choose to enjoy it. A healthy PvP community benefits everyone.

[Alkazarr]

 

"I dont wan't premades in the WZs I am queuing for and i understand it might take accordingly longer to enter a match" CHECKBOX

 

You're expecting the devs to push for a feature that discourages group gameplay in a MMO, at the cost of increased queue time for everyone else.

 

I do understand your frustration as when I started playing the game the premades used to make me rage quite a bit, but you gotta learn to roll with it.

I challenge you to find another MMO/multiplayer game that discourages premades/clans/guilds. It sucks to say, but it's just counter-nature to the genre of the game. You might find a couple, who knows, but it doesn't mean that it's a good feature regardless.

 

And you know what I say, if you can't beat them join them.

[Astarica]

A false premise can be used to prove anything because formally, false implies true.

 

For example the statement: "If SWTOR was made by aliens, then healing is overpowered." is 100% true. To disprove this statement you've to first show that SWTOR was indeed made by aliens, which you presumably cannot, and since you can't do this you cannot disprove the 'then' part.

 

So if you start with a premise like 'premades are necessary to win', that's almost certainly false as well, so it is possible to get this statement to imply anything you wish. I can even say, "Since premades always win, that means premades always lose." Although this statement seems nonsensical, it cannot be disproven because you must first prove 'premades always win' to refute it, which you cannot.

[Luco-Zade]

Premades ARE NOT the problem.

 

Now, before anyone jumps in going "zomg pre-made stomper fagzzz"

 

I have NEVER been in a premade at ALL.

 

The problem is that since 2.0 when PVP got dumbed down there has been in influx of lazy half-*** players who play FOTM specs and play every WZ like a deathmatch, hunting medals and only being vaguely aware of objectives.

 

I have given up trying to educate them because its impossible, you scream you yell you say politely and you get reported everytime.

 

Pre-mades are the only viable way around the influx of "uber-bads," i have no problem with people grouping up to actually get decent games with more than 2-3 good players who try to carry the UB's.

 

It is also unfortunate that people abuse this system to just "pwn n00bz" but it happens, the problem isnt that pre-mades are running around doing this, its the mentality of the d-bags behind the keyboards that are the problem.

 

Good luck trying to sort it out in an intelligent way when the problem is down to a lack of said intelligence.

[Jadescythe]

A false premise can be used to prove anything because formally, false implies true.

 

For example the statement: "If SWTOR was made by aliens, then healing is overpowered." is 100% true. To disprove this statement you've to first show that SWTOR was indeed made by aliens, which you presumably cannot, and since you can't do this you cannot disprove the 'then' part.

 

So if you start with a premise like 'premades are necessary to win', that's almost certainly false as well, so it is possible to get this statement to imply anything you wish. I can even say, "Since premades always win, that means premades always lose." Although this statement seems nonsensical, it cannot be disproven because you must first prove 'premades always win' to refute it, which you cannot.

 

What? No part of this is true. Especially considering everything in your third paragraph can easily be disproved.

[Kovaos]

lol this thread has turned into a bunch of incoherent nonsense.

[cycao]

lol this thread has turned into a bunch of incoherent nonsense.

 

Ah yes, however it is entertaining incoherent nonsense.

[Ajuntalee]

You're expecting the devs to push for a feature that discourages group gameplay in a MMO, at the cost of increased queue time for everyone else.

 

I do understand your frustration as when I started playing the game the premades used to make me rage quite a bit, but you gotta learn to roll with it.

I challenge you to find another MMO/multiplayer game that discourages premades/clans/guilds. It sucks to say, but it's just counter-nature to the genre of the game. You might find a couple, who knows, but it doesn't mean that it's a good feature regardless.

 

And you know what I say, if you can't beat them join them.

 

You don't understand, i play in premades, and when i play solo i don't mind facing premades, not even ranked ones, late at night when they don't get ranked matches anymore.

 

Also you don't understand that such a checkboxes doesn't increase the matchmaking time for anyone else but those who check it, they are the one left out of a [4 + 1 + 3 ] vs [ 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1] not the four not the three not the 2 pairs and not the 5 ones who did not check the box and who will be matched immediatly, those who checked the box are left out waiting for a next match, when enough solo have been found.

 

at the moment the engine will delay that match trying to match more fours with fours more threes with threes, more twos with twos, and more solo together, and when it cannot occur, it will become more and more tolerant to the point where this match still happens 15 minutes later but among the ones some will be angry to have 2 premades in the opposite team.

 

those ones checking this box will only get a few matches per day, but at least they will get matches with no premades, everyone else will wait less and play more often.

[deedeede]

You don't understand, i play in premades, and when i play solo i don't mind facing premades, not even ranked ones, late at night when they don't get ranked matches anymore.

 

Also you don't understand that such a checkboxes doesn't increase the matchmaking time for anyone else but those who check it, they are the one left out of a [4 + 1 + 3 ] vs [ 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1] not the four not the three not the 2 pairs and not the 5 ones who did not check the box and who will be matched immediatly, those who checked the box are left out waiting for a next match, when enough solo have been found.

 

at the moment the engine will delay that match trying to match more fours with fours more threes with threes, more twos with twos, and more solo together, and when it cannot occur, it will become more and more tolerant to the point where this match still happens 15 minutes later but among the ones some will be angry to have 2 premades in the opposite team.

 

those ones checking this box will only get a few matches per day, but at least they will get matches with no premades, everyone else will wait less and play more often.

 

is obvious you didnt play many mmo's

try rift and you'll see what it means a pug friendly queue

[Alkazarr]

You don't understand, i play in premades, and when i play solo i don't mind facing premades, not even ranked ones, late at night when they don't get ranked matches anymore.

 

Also you don't understand that such a checkboxes doesn't increase the matchmaking time for anyone else but those who check it, they are the one left out of a [4 + 1 + 3 ] vs [ 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1] not the four not the three not the 2 pairs and not the 5 ones who did not check the box and who will be matched immediatly, those who checked the box are left out waiting for a next match, when enough solo have been found.

 

at the moment the engine will delay that match trying to match more fours with fours more threes with threes, more twos with twos, and more solo together, and when it cannot occur, it will become more and more tolerant to the point where this match still happens 15 minutes later but among the ones some will be angry to have 2 premades in the opposite team.

 

those ones checking this box will only get a few matches per day, but at least they will get matches with no premades, everyone else will wait less and play more often.

 

First off, I can't understand what I didn't know. In this case, your pvp gaming habits.

 

Secondly, it is you who bases your theory around the assumption that only a small/reasonable amount of players will use the "solo queue" option, from which you established that there will be enough pugs to fill up games with premades in them.

I could just as well assume the opposite, and that most pugs will opt for the solo queue checkbox, which in return will make it harder for games to be full for those who enjoy grouped gameplay.

 

I'm sorry but your argument stands on one peg, and it's entirely speculation. As you said to me in your PM, use your head.

[Aelaias]

In my experience on Shadowlands an average imp pug will mop the floor with its rep equivalent. Imps are more likely to have healers and their pvpers on average are much higher quality. When a premade queues against such knuckledraggers the situation becomes abominable though it doesn't happen very often. The server is well populated and I think separating group queues would do little to solo queuers but premades would be hurt. I don't care, it needs to happen whether or not they ever implement cross server pvp. Rep pvp scene wasn't great to begin with but it actually managed to get worse since 2.0.

[Sharee]

Nevertheless, his second iteration is much better and much more difficult to be proven false, you have to give him that.

 

That's because the iteration is not false. I, indeed, "have a desire to not do what is needed to beat a premade".

 

What however is false is his follow-up conclusion that the above means that i am lazy. That's an unwarranted accusation, as not wanting to do something does not automatically imply you are lazy. Sometimes you just have no interest in that activity. See my example of climbing the Everest. There are tons of people who like hiking in the mountains, yet never plan to climb Everest. Are they all lazy? I don't think so.

[Sharee]

I could just as well assume the opposite, and that most pugs will opt for the solo queue checkbox, which in return will make it harder for games to be full for those who enjoy grouped gameplay..

 

Yes, however if that is true, if most PUG players indeed prefer not facing premades(and would use such a checkbox if available), then that means under current system the majority of non-premade players are forced into an activity not fun for them, just to provide entertainment for a minority.

 

That's wrong in my book.

 

Thus, the checkbox would always be positive: in case of few people using it, nothing changes for the majority. If most people use it, then it will provide what the majority of players wants.

 

-------------------------

(On a personal note, i would probably only use such a checkbox as the last resort on evenings when the premade imbalace is especially bad, making me willing to wait longer for a balanced match. I imagine most players would behave similarly)

Edited May 28, 2013 by Sharee

[Brunner_Venda]

Nothing felt better than the first time a random group I was in rolled a pre-made pub guild.

 

Me: Hey, we're facing a pre-made.

 

Another dude: Yeah but they don't count, because (guild name) sucks!

 

Me: LOL!

 

We won, then four of us grouped up for a rematch. Then I realized, I was part of a hated pre-made! D-:

[Ajuntalee]

is obvious you didnt play many mmo's

try rift and you'll see what it means a pug friendly queue

 

i was playing MMOs when you were suckling your mom's ****** dude. why should I try RIFT, is it better than this one ? If so *** are you doing here caring about my MMO curiculum.

 

Secondly, it is you who bases your theory around the assumption that only a small/reasonable amount of players will use the "solo queue" option, from which you established that there will be enough pugs to fill up games with premades in them.

I could just as well assume the opposite, and that most pugs will opt for the solo queue checkbox, which in return will make it harder for games to be full for those who enjoy grouped gameplay.

 

Yes I formulated the hypothesis, that 90% of PUG players couldn't care less about premades.

 

I could be wrong, in which case read what sharee said, if 90% of pugs hate to join premades, the solution is still good, even if it is for diffrent reasons, that is why I found this solution so appealling,

 

The check box is is the only reasonable alternative to the actual SMART machmaking engine, because it gives more data for the smart matchmaker to crunch, it tells the matchmaking engine what people really want.

 

This checkbox is not my idea, but it is brillant so I promote it.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Ajuntalee

[Kontraz]

The term "logic still stands" is used to describe that the conclusion of a logical chain is still true (usually despite of something). It does not mean that formal logic was used, but rather that the conclusion of that logic is valid.

 

In your case, the conclusion is invalid because the premise at the start of the implication chain was false. Thus, your logic does not stand.

 

Your argument is like saying "1+2=12" and when someone points out the equation is wrong, you start arguing that the 'logic still stands' because you used the correct arithmetical symbols in the equation.

 

 

 

I like to play a game of soccer against my friends. But i have the desire not to do what is needed to beat Real Madrid. (because i have no desire to fight real madrid in the firstplace). Does that make me lazy?

 

I like to go for a hike in the mountains. But i have no desire to do what is neccessary to be able to scale Mount Everest. Does that make me lazy?

 

Accusing people of not trying hard enough to achieve something they did not *want* to achieve in the firstplace is silly.

 

ESPECIALLY considering we are talking about free-time activity that is supposed to be fun and relaxing after a long day at work. Work is where i try hard to succeed. Swtor is a pasttime where i want to have a relaxed game of PUG against PUG.

Who are you to tell me I can't? That it is wrong? Lazy?

Nobody.

 

The logic does indeed still stand. The validity of my premises and their followed conclusion is valid. The truth can be debated, but following both premises are true, then the conclusion must also be true. Simply because you do not like it does not make it any less valid.

 

I'll let this quote speak for itself on your usage of validity - "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Perhaps you are seeking the term "soundness"? This is defined as the argument being valid and all premises are true. A quick google seach for proper logic definitions might keep you from making blatant errors in vocabulary and making claims that hold no basis - such as my valid argument holding no validity.

 

no, the argument is nothing akin to 1+2=12. That is blatant strawman, and not even a very good one. Keep trying. No offense, but if you do not understand formal logic, please do not continue to debate against it or try to correct mine. You will only continue to display your ignorance on the matter (note: not ignorance overall, simply on the subject of formal logic, which you have adequately shown absolute no understanding of).

 

Your example with Madrid is actually a good example, but the problem is you aren't playing in your back yard. You are playing in the majors (as this is the only option given in SWTOR). Because you are dissatisfied with the possibility of playing a team on Madrid's level (I would have used Bayern, just sayin) does not mean that they should be removed from the league. "Oh, well there's ranked!" yes there are also a number of tournaments and cups that Madrid will of course compete in, but that does not mean they cannot participate in the standard league. If you do not wish to train to be on their level, that is on you - not them.

 

 

Saying "SWTOR is a pastime where I want a casual game of PUG against PUG" is akin to saying "SWTOR is a passtime where I want to be Revan." It is not in the game mechanics, and it would be silly of me to throw a fit about it after 1.5 years of the game being live. What you want and what the game's goals are are not always congruent. This goes back to me claiming you are wanting a primary aspect of the game to be changed for your own personal satisfaction - which is nothing short of catering to your desires. A selfish act in opposition to those who enjoy the game for what is and what has come to be expected of it.

 

 

edit: here is a *very* simplistic rundown of validity vs soundness.

 

http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/tvs.html

 

Now, what we can argue about all day (and with no hard evidence, it won't get anywhere, since it is primarily opinion based) is the soundness of my arguments. The validity, however, stands. And such, the argument as a whole remains logical (the term logical in my case was in reference to its validity remaining intact with the soundness still being in question - as originally stated when I presented the argument)

Edited May 28, 2013 by Kontraz

[Sharee]

The logic does indeed still stand. The validity of my premises and their followed conclusion is valid.

 

No. Your premise was "I need a premade to win". That is blatantly false, as many PUGs that ever won a match can attest to. The only difference between validity and truth is that truth is absolute, while validity equals truth until proven false. Yours has been proven false. Thus the conclusion is also false. Thus, your logic does not stand.

 

Your example with Madrid is actually a good example, but the problem is you aren't playing in your back yard. You are playing in the majors (as this is the only option given in SWTOR).

 

And that is exactly what this thread aims to change. People who want to play in their backyard should not be yanked from there and put on a field facing Madrid when they have no wish to face Madrid.

 

Because you are dissatisfied with the possibility of playing a team on Madrid's level (I would have used Bayern, just sayin) does not mean that they should be removed from the league.

 

Not they should be removed from the league, but *I* should be removed from the league. Who are you to tell me that i cannot play in my backyard and MUST face Madrid just because i want to play some soccer? Don't you see how ludicrous such a statement is?

 

This goes back to me claiming you are wanting a primary aspect of the game to be changed for your own personal satisfaction - which is nothing short of catering to your desires. A selfish act in opposition to those who enjoy the game for what is and what has come to be expected of it.

 

That statement is dripping with hypocrisy. You, who insist that people who have no desire to face your premade SHOULD face your premade for YOUR enjoyment AT THE COST OF THEIR OWN FUN(because they get none) dare to accuse them that they want the game to cater to THEIR desires? Can you even look into a mirror without it cracking?

Edited May 28, 2013 by Sharee

[Kontraz]

No. Your premise was "I need a premade to win". That is blatantly false, as many PUGs that ever won a match can attest to. The only difference between validity and truth is that truth is absolute, while validity equals truth until proven false. Yours has been proven false. Thus the conclusion is also false. Thus, your logic does not stand.

 

once again, you still fail to understand the definition of validity. I have spelled it out very simply for you, and you still think it has to deal with truth value. At this point, I will no longer acknowledge any of your arguments, as you have proven beyond reasonable doubt you are either incapable of comprehending arguments, or simply refuse to. Either way, it would be a waste of time.

 

Next.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Kontraz

[Sharee]

once again, you still fail to understand the definition of validity. I have spelled it out very simply for you, and you still think it has to deal with truth value. At this point, I will no longer acknowledge any of your arguments, as you have proven beyond reasonable doubt you are either incapable of comprehending arguments, or simply refuse to. Either way, it would be a waste of time.

 

Next.

 

All you are doing is trying to cloud a very real case of you being wrong in sophisms. I am not falling for that, and i doubt anyone else is either. Your original premise was that only a premade can win. This is not true. This is not valid. Take your pick, i do not care, because either of those cases makes your conclusion unture, invalid, bollocks, again, take your pick.

 

And with both the premise and the conclusion bollocks, boldly claiming "but my logic still stands!" is more than just a little laughable.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Sharee

[Zhaker]

You misquote a lot or have serious reading comprehension issues. 1) You are the quitter not me. 2) I never said I couldn't join a premade because I couldn't find one. This is a point you are unable to understand until you find yourself in this situation. 3) I probably queued 6 times yesterday and 5 of those we went against a premade. It won't matter much what server I am on with PuG vs Pre.

 

Some of you need to step down from your pedal stool and stop thinking because you join a queue with some other decent players withe good gear that you somehow are more aware of what's going on. There are terrible PuG players out there, but there are some good ones too.

 

Apparently you assume too much, not once did I say PuG are ALL terrible.

 

All I am simply saying is that "PREMADE ARE NOT TO BLAME FOR RUINING YOUR REGULAR WZ" experience, which is the point of this THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE. If that is not clear then you need to stop playing MMOs in general. If Premade wasnt allowed then friends wont be made and guilds wont be risen. If premades never existed then hell why would they even add OPs, FPs and even heroic quest that require a group to organize a premade.

 

Now if the thread said "SUPERQUEUES OF THE SAME RATED WZ GROUP ARE RUINING REGULAR WZ" then I would agree that would be a problem. But that would be simply a server problem that you need to work it out with within your server.

 

But again a PREMADE of 4 doesnt guarantee instant wins, its only guarantee if the other side doesnt put up a fight. Which IMO is the bigger problem for PuGs. Once PuGs stop playing half assed and try to win WZ will be fun and Premades wouldnt be as a threat. But because of the quality of PuGs which the majority are not playing as the WZ is designed for, it leads to problems. But NOOO its not PuGs fault, its defeinitely the premade they need to stoop to your level and carry PuGs because its so much more fun right?

[weprisko]

Why the hell u argue about logic for gods sake? It can just bring you to insanity if u would think about it.

 

Lets say I have premise and I tell u its all true : (A ∧ B) <=> C

A = run in premade

B = face a premade

C = challenging fight / balanced fight

 

Im not great in english so sry if I screw it up - "I will have a challenging fight only if I run in premade and face a premade"

 

that can be also transformed to ( A ' ∧ B ' ) <=> C

"Only running in pug vs. pug offer challenging fight"

 

Sure thats laughable argument and premise as hell. especially when u try to implement it. sometimes premade face a premade and is humilated by stronger premade. sometimes pugs are wiped by more experienced pugs. sometimes even bad premade loose to a bit solid casual pugs. though sometimes it happens to have stronger premade vs. unexperienced pugs too.

 

Oh and I really like that football talk btw

Imagine - u r learning how to play football. U try to dribble for the first time and BAM! there are some nasty players from ManU. They take you the ball and run around you in circles and mocking you.

"bastards! I just want to train and learn how to play cuz I like the idea of playing football" you reply.

"lol. so do not enter the pitch!" they mock you.

"but thats the only pitch around!"

"lol. who cares. go play chess"

 

The next day u go to the pitch again. There are some other kids around so u start playing the football for the first time. U dribble, u learn how to make a pass and them BAM! again these nasty players from ManU. They intercept your pass and keep mocking you. U try to retake the ball alongside with other kids but they just keep passing it above your heads.

 

After few years u return to the pitch to play a football. U get to team and others keep yelling at you: "U r bad! what the hell are u trying to do? lol u do not even know to dribble or to shoot!"

"these bastards from ManU are to blame. When I tried to learn to play football they always took me the ball"

"lol. **** ya bad."

and that makes me very sad panda

[Aristore]

All you are doing is trying to cloud a very real case of you being wrong in sophisms. I am not falling for that, and i doubt anyone else is either. Your original premise was that only a premade can win. This is not true. This is not valid. Take your pick, i do not care, because either of those cases makes your conclusion unture, invalid, bollocks, again, take your pick.

 

And with both the premise and the conclusion bollocks, boldly claiming "but my logic still stands!" is more than just a little laughable.

 

Representin' for logic and SMASHING scared little QQing overmatched trolls. I think it's time for him to step back into his back yard because he's obviously failed on the pitch of logic.

 

Credit where credit is due.

[Comfterbilly]

Bioware you need to add a PUG only warzone option, this will level the playing field more and allow people to just have fun.... If not, less and less people are going to pvp due to frustration with the situation..

 

Large numbers of subscribers (and former subscribers) have been DEMANDING solo ques since launch and continue to demand it today. Bioware chooses to ignore our frequent request. Greatttt business strategy.

 

Just force a sizeable group of people who don't want to spend money playing against premades, TO spend their money playing against premades. How is it that no other company has ever thought of this genius idea?

 

Just keep ignoring a sizable group of customers. We are simply asking for a SOLO-ONLY toggle on the Warzone que. Instead, we get to fork out hard earned money at the end of the day to play solo (like we want to) against premades (who we don't want to play with).

 

It's SOOOOOOOOOO much fun to finally get a huttball que after an hour and a half of endless hypergate ques, and be delighted by the sight of that same ranked team farming pugs. I just sit and think to myself, "yeah - bioware - you nailed it."

 

"Thissss is what I worked all day looking forward to. Aw yeah, run that same old play that you've been practicing all year. Ohh - crossheal that ***** nice and sexy like. That's what I subscribe to this game to put up with during my few hours of game time..."

 

To BW - Thank you. You rule. Completely.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Comfterbilly