Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[SammuelSK]

lol AoC. Their pvp is even more dead than swtor. I tried that game out a few months ago and it was like over an hour per queue.

 

*face palm* You really are a... genius... aren't you?

 

Six year old game that everyone has forgotten is empty, full news story at 6 o'clock.

 

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion... again... Bioware is not going to change anything because they are not really invested in improving PVP.

Edited September 11, 2014 by SammuelSK

[Darkshadz]

I'm sorry.. your argument is what exactly? That SWTOR has less players then Age of Conan? Because.. I can tell you that is definately NOT the case. So... you might want to rephrase your point... because that made no sense to me.

 

Thanks for purposely not reading the part where I said that AoC has only 2 active servers for the whole game. You also faiiled to prove that the population increased after they separate queues.

 

I never said that SWTOR has less players than AoC btw.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Darkshadz

[SammuelSK]

Thanks for purposely not reading the part where I said that AoC has only 2 active servers for the whole game. I never said that SWTOR has less players than AoC btw.

 

AoC has 3 servers now, it had more before. Much like SWTOR had more before too, and will have less in the future. The problem with your point is... that its still makes zero actual sense, not that I ignored it.

 

Are you trying to say that SWTOR's servers hold less players? Because that seems fairly unlikely as well.

Edited September 11, 2014 by SammuelSK

[Raansu]

*face palm* You really are a... genius... aren't you?

 

Six year old game that everyone has forgotten is empty, full news story at 6 o'clock.

 

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion... again... Bioware is not going to change anything because they are not really invested in improving PVP.

 

There are plenty of games older than AoC that still have strong communities in pvp. AoC was just a garbage game.

[Darkshadz]

AoC has 3 servers now, it had more before. Much like SWTOR had more before too, and will have less in the future. The problem with your point is... that its still makes zero actual sense, not that I ignored it.

 

Are you trying to say that SWTOR's servers hold less players? Because that seems fairly unlikely as well.

 

What is so damn hard to understand? Let's say that AoC has 300k players and SWTOR too. AoC has 3 servers, SWTOR 11 in total. Why do you think AoC can afford to separate queues? If you can't answer that, I don't know what to say. WoW has far more players than SWTOR (and cross-server queues) and even there they don't separate queues in random BGs.

 

I don't care about how many servers AoC had in the past, we're speaking about the present.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Darkshadz

[SammuelSK]

What is so damn hard to understand? Let's say that AoC has 300k players and SWTOR too. AoC has 3 servers, SWTOR 11 in total. Why do you think AoC can afford to separate queues? If you can't answer that, I don't know what to say. WoW has far more players than SWTOR (and cross-server queues) and even there they don't separate queues in random BGs.

 

I don't care about how many servers AoC had in the past, we're speaking about the present.

 

Uh.. AoC does not have 300k players, AoC has.. from the estimates I'm seeing on their forums about 10-20k players currently.

 

Similarly, according to Eric Musco... "over 10 million play occasionally, while over 1 million play per month." That number seems significantly higher to what AoC's.

 

So... math time! 20,000(very high estimate) / 3 = 6666.6666.....

750,000(very low estimate/bad month) / 11 = 68181.8181.....

 

That's 10 times more players per server. Again. What exactly is your point?

Edited September 11, 2014 by SammuelSK

[PloGreen]

Who said anything about encouraging people to quit? Where did I say anything of the sort? It's bad form to put words in other people's mouths. The thing is you don't need to encourage people to quit because the poor setups in regs already do that for you. No, I don't tell clients to quit if they can't handle the effort, I make sure they can handle it and make a point of conveying that their efforts aren't in vain. If you know anything about actual team competitions you know that the equivalent of a 100-0 loss is a very rare occurrence IRL and always devastating to team morale. Here, they are fairly common. As you know, sports teams have coaches that focus on that that among other things -- what do people in SWTOR PVP have? Just internet tough guys telling them to suck it up and "L2P". Not exactly the most encouraging environment.

 

"Don't ever quit" is terrible advice because it's not actual advice - it's just an imperative that doesn't actually provide the recipient with the tools to overcome difficulties on top of being a veiled attack on her self esteem because "only losers quit". Since you're a such a straight up, no nonsense hardcore achiever, I'm sure that someone yelling "PUSH!!!" into your ear is enough to get you to bench 4 plates. And everyone else is a tourist and don't belong in your warzones anyway. Were that we could all bask in your glory.

 

Might not be your intention, but that really does come off as elitist.

 

 

 

 

See, just shouting "opinion!" at other people's viewpoints does not work as well as you may think to undermine their validity, especially when you have failed to produce any factual evidence to back up your own claims, and also when you obviously haven't taken the time to actually understand the opinions you are attacking. Look up positive reinforcement and punishment. It's the reason prisons don't really work as a means to educate people or prevent recidivism. Nope, I cannot offer mathematical proof, because psychology isn't a hard science. There is literature however that suggests that a combination of positive and aversive stimuli offers the best results at modifying behavior, vs punishment alone. In this sense, more people will simply reduce their participation in PVP as much as possible because it's the easiest way to minimize the frustration associated with getting constantly owned in WZs, because appetitive stimuli are rare for newcomers to PVP.

 

You are right, I don't know that people are losing only because of premades. Then again, I never made that argument (straw man alert!). I do know, however, that ideal comp premades are stacking the odds in their favor when they queue because no matchmaking exists in regs. It makes the already unbalanced random composition issue worse. And that is what people are complaining about. Can an ideal comp premade lose against a pug? Yes. But that's irrelevant because the issue is the perceived advantages that people in a premade have against pugs, namely voice chat and group composition. You are a sports coach, how would you feel if your team wasn't allowed to prepare matches but this restriction didn't apply to your opponents?

 

Funny thing is, I'm not even against premades in regs, and I think the idea of a separate queue for groups is silly (and not a fix at all due to queue syncing). But getting teams of 7 rdd, or 3 healers in arenas gets real old real fast, and it's even worse when the other team has guard switching and cross healing. No amount of "L2P" on my mara is going to allow me to heal or guard. Want to queue with your pals? Great! I just want to stand on equal footing as much as possible, when mine aren't available. Is that so hard to understand?

 

So what you want is better matchmaking?

 

Random is random though. If, for instance you remove groups of 4 from the the unranked queue you are leaving yourself at the hands of rng. This won't make the game fairer you would effectively make grouping up with one friend, casual or pvp groups obsolete in unranked pop. I don't see that as particularly healthy for the game at all.

 

Half a pre is beneficial to the team of pugs they get put with if it has a balanced comp, so there is a big clue to people that complain about premades ruining their experience. Shock/horror teaming up with people - be it another player or several is a good idea in this game. So I would say to those people do it then. But don't complain about other people if you insist on leaving yourselves to the mercy of random matchmaking. That is just so stupid.

 

The whole game content encourages people to group - it's an mmo. You are meant to do this, 4 man premades are helpful to pugs as much as they can face roll the opposition. It puts matchmaking in the hands of the players if more people actually chose to do it instead of ************ about it on the forums. Regs serve as a casual playground with no penalty for leaving and rejoining. There is no issue, if people can't win a single warzone they are simply awful and there is no amount of queue adjustment bioware can make to make **** people better at the game. That is down to the player and the choices they make.

 

If people refuse to use the same tools and options EVERYONE in the game can use what can you say to that? That is their choice. These threads are just ridiculous and nothing will ever change simply because they are so redundant and silly.

Edited September 11, 2014 by PloGreen

[SammuelSK]

The whole game content encourages people to group - it's an mmo. You are meant to do this, 4 man premades are helpful to pugs as much as they can face roll the opposition.

 

What? I mean... props for your ability to spin a negative experiance into a positive... but that's simply not how it works. The net effect is people simply stop queuing up entirely, telling them to suck it up and learn not to suck isn't going to accomplish anything or convince them that they were having fun, getting teabagged those last 10-15 minutes.

 

That said, great spin..

[foxmob]

If they brought back 8 vs 8 ranked, that would probably help with the issue of certain premade groups steamrolling regular warzones at least somewhat. There are probably a lot of premade groups out there that simply don't like the 4 vs 4 TDM format, but would be willing to play 8 vs 8 ranked.

 

no. I don't think so. every good guild I've ever seen was good in both formats, and plays them both. more ppl may like 8's more, but don't kid yourself. the 8v8 queues were just as empty as the 4's, and 4's are a lot easier to put together than 8's. grp rated would still be an elite endeavor on a by appointment only basis, and most of their time would be spent in regs, as it is now.

[Darkshadz]

Uh.. AoC does not have 300k players, AoC has.. from the estimates I'm seeing on their forums about 10-20k players currently.

 

Similarly, according to Eric Musco... "over 10 million play occasionally, while over 1 million play per month." That number seems significantly higher to what AoC's.

 

So... math time! 20,000(very high estimate) / 3 = 6666.6666.....

750,000(very low estimate/bad month) / 11 = 68181.8181.....

 

That's 10 times more players per server. Again. What exactly is your point?

 

Here's the thing, buddy: some servers are more populated than others. Harbinger has a much higher population than Jung ma for example. Now imagine if we had separate queues because backpeddlers don't like challenge.... Without x-server queues, forget about separating queues.

 

I'm sure of 2 things: 1) servers are not equally populated 2) AoC is a failure. Separating queues didn't save that game. So why using the worst example possible to prove that separating queues is the way to go? If I remember well, the game started strong but epically failed a few months after right? So next time, please talk about a game that is still decently populated. I'm sure that there are not much premades in AoC for obvious reasons

 

What? I mean... props for your ability to spin a negative experiance into a positive... but that's simply not how it works. The net effect is people simply stop queuing up entirely, telling them to suck it up and learn not to suck isn't going to accomplish anything or convince them that they were having fun, getting teabagged those last 10-15 minutes.

 

That said, great spin..

 

I still queue even after getting roflstomped by better players/half premades.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Darkshadz

[PloGreen]

What? I mean... props for your ability to spin a negative experiance into a positive... but that's simply not how it works. The net effect is people simply stop queuing up entirely, telling them to suck it up and learn not to suck isn't going to accomplish anything or convince them that they were having fun, getting teabagged those last 10-15 minutes.

 

That said, great spin..

 

Yes learning to play the game and how to play is exactly what you are supposed to do. You expect people to have fun, win and not learn to play?

 

If they are awful they need to get better, I don't see how removing a group is going to make them play better - newsflash it isn't.

[Volxen]

no. I don't think so. every good guild I've ever seen was good in both formats, and plays them both. more ppl may like 8's more, but don't kid yourself. the 8v8 queues were just as empty as the 4's, and 4's are a lot easier to put together than 8's. grp rated would still be an elite endeavor on a by appointment only basis, and most of their time would be spent in regs, as it is now.

 

But there are several four-man premade teams on the imp side on the bastion that play regular warzones for several hours a day and basically shred everyone they come up against without much effort. Are you saying that they are queueing for regular warzones because they want really easy matches, and that they wouldn't do 8 vs 8 ranked even if it were an option?

[SammuelSK]

Here's the thing, buddy: some servers are more populated than others. Harbinger has a much higher population than Jung ma for example. Now imagine if we had separate queues because backpeddlers don't like challenge.... Without x-server queues, forget about separating queues.

 

I'm sure of 2 things: 1) servers are not equally populated 2) AoC is a failure. Separating queues didn't save that game. So why using the worst example possible to prove that separating queues is the way to go? If I remember well, the game started strong but epically failed a few months after right? So next time, please talk about a game that is still decently populated. I'm sure that there are not much premades in AoC for obvious reasons

 

 

 

I still queue even after getting roflstomped by better players/half premades.

 

Gotcha. Well, knowing rhetoric trumps facts saves me the effort of having to further debate this with you. You will simply ignore anything that doesn't match up with your predetermined point of view.

[SammuelSK]

Yes learning to play the game and how to play is exactly what you are supposed to do. You expect people to have fun, win and not learn to play?

 

If they are awful they need to get better, I don't see how removing a group is going to make them play better - newsflash it isn't.

 

Player have already learned to play the game by the time they hit level 55 PVP, they've done the same matches for the first 54 levels they have played nothing changes mechanic wise. Now though they are facing fully gear players (another flaw, gear has NO place in PVP, it should be skill only) running premades designed to farm easy wins(for conquest points, a huge flaw.. they should be part of ranked only). Hitting a wall does not teach them anything, it just causes them to not bother.

 

Edit: You are missing the point. You can have fun while winning or losing, they are not mutually exclusive. I am not advocating everyone needs to win. But getting steam rolled match after match, without respite burns people out. They AFK or just quit entirely, this has a negative impact on every subsequent game... why do you think we have so few players queuing up despite upwards of a million(Musco quote) logging in per month?

Edited September 11, 2014 by SammuelSK

[Darkshadz]

Gotcha. Well, knowing rhetoric trumps facts saves me the effort of having to further debate this with you. You will simply ignore anything that doesn't match up with your predetermined point of view.

 

Out of argument? Thought so. You failed to prove that separating queues would encourage people to participate in pvp and exaggerated about how many MMOs separate queues in pvp. I've been playing SWTOR since launch, premades are not an issue in this game. The issue is that people like you give up so easily when there is some decent challenge. This game is not incredibly hard to play and there are more than enough resources to know how to play your class in pvp.

 

Losing is part of the game but when you lose because most of your group decides to give up, it is infuriating. You don't like facing half premades in pvp? Play solo ranked pvp or stick to scripted PVE fights.

 

Edit: You are missing the point. You can have fun while winning or losing, they are not mutually exclusive. I am not advocating everyone needs to win. But getting steam rolled match after match, without respite burns people out. They AFK or just quit entirely, this has a negative impact on every subsequent game... why do you think we have so few players queuing up despite upwards of a million(Musco quote) logging in per month?

 

Are you talking about WZs or solo/group ranked pvp? WZ queues are not very long in general depending on when you play. Can't say the same about group ranked pvp though. On what server are you playing? As for the gear disadvantage, I suggest you read L-Randle's sticked post here. You can be competitive even if you don't have your full Obroan/brut gear yet.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Darkshadz

[Locksley]

I think the problem is you should be allowed to q with as many or as little friends as you want to regardless of ranked or not. I think most of the guys got it... why would you ever want to play with friends in a mmo... thats just crazy talk. You can q with as many as you want for pve but not ranked.... thats just bs.

[SammuelSK]

Are you talking about WZs or solo/group ranked pvp? WZ queues are not very long in general depending on when you play. Can't say the same about group ranked pvp though. On what server are you playing? As for the gear disadvantage, I suggest you read L-Randle's sticked post here. You can be competitive even if you don't have your full Obroan/brut gear yet.

 

You really should stop bro, your ability to miss the point entirely is uncanny. Or you are attempting to troll by starting discussions that deflect away from the true debate. In that case its me who has missed the point. Either way, relax bud.... Bioware won't ever change a thing.

 

I'll expand on what I ment, even though it had no revelance on what we were even talking about(think unimportant tangent).

 

As a player who got his start on FPS's, gear grind in PVP has always been something I found as odd. It is a power advantage given based on time played. Why would anyone who PVP's need/want that? True PVP is based on skill, not how many hours you invested into the game.. that is, at best PVE bleedthru... at worse, carebear mechanics.

 

PVP rewards should be purely cosmetic. Period. But that is an argument for another day.... preferably in the design stage, not two years into a game.

Edited September 11, 2014 by SammuelSK

[eGraced]

There is a world of difference between a "premade" PvP group full of dedicated players in an optimum composition and the average group of friends or guildies who just group up to enjoy a few rounds of PvP together. Most groups that queue for regs are the latter, and have very little specific advantage over pugs. They aren't grouping to screw the pugs, they are queueing to enjoy a few warzones together. Since they are not a PvP "premade" they would get stomped by the dedicated "premades" in a group queue, and so choose to queue for regs.

 

If you remove the ability for groups to queue for regs, you eliminate this group of players from PvP, and it is a sizable percentage of PvPers. With complaints about population size already, do you really want to push these players out?

[Vember]

It was done in rift and was immediately reverted because the queues died.

 

No, absolutely false. It was immediately reverted because the premade queue was empty. The regular queues were doing just fine, but the premades were crying about not having anyone to play against.

 

lol AoC. Their pvp is even more dead than swtor. I tried that game out a few months ago and it was like over an hour per queue.

 

Also false. At max level queues are almost instant. Nobody pvp's at the lower levels anymore.

 

Out of argument? Thought so. You failed to prove that separating queues would encourage people to participate in pvp

 

Just because you failed to comprehend it doesn't mean he failed to prove it. Rift and AoC are both good examples. Thing is, when premades are removed from the regular queues, the regular queues keep popping. It's the premades that have a problem with it, and the premades that suffer. Premades belong in ranked, so I have no problem with that.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Vember

[Raansu]

Player have already learned to play the game by the time they hit level 55 PVP, they've done the same matches for the first 54 levels they have played nothing changes mechanic wise.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

If only that were true. So many 55's still keyboard turn, backpeddle during force speed, use their 2 minute CC breaker on a friggan root and rarely if ever do more than 150k damage......Ya they totally learned how to play the game by 55

Edited September 11, 2014 by Raansu

[Raansu]

Just because you failed to comprehend it doesn't mean he failed to prove it. Rift and AoC are both good examples. Thing is, when premades are removed from the regular queues, the regular queues keep popping. It's the premades that have a problem with it, and the premades that suffer. Premades belong in ranked, so I have no problem with that.

 

What they really need to do is remove the solo button. Maybe then you will learn to MMO.

[Vember]

What they really need to do is remove the solo button. Maybe then you will learn to MMO.

 

You need to learn to business

[Jadescythe]

This thread always delivers.

 

The math argument was hilarious. Since apparently only solo players and 4-mans exist. Except I was in a game with 3 two-man groups the other day. So that was a 6-2 lead for premaders with no one in a group of 4. I had a game with 2 three-man groups and a two-man the other day. That was 8-0 for premaders. I saw at least 3 people on the other team with the same guild tag in those games as well, so we were matched against premades as well like the game attempts to do.

 

At this point, a solo queue argument doesn't even make sense. The game tries to prioritize premades against each other when it can and we keep the queues as populated as possible by having everyone mixed together. For ever BiS trinity 4-man I see, there is a total **** group of 4 players from a guild that do 75k damage in full warzones at 55. I'm not trying to kick either of them out of the queue.

 

What everyone really wants is a casual vs. competitive queue. Or more realistically, matchmaking based on skill, gear, role, etc. But this is the most unrealistic pipe dream with no X-server or increased server population. You can claim that casual PvPers quit because of premades, but I see them all the time. Not to mention the max premade size is half a warzone. I could see if there were massive amounts of double premades running rampant on servers, but unless you're playing on the most faction-imbalanced server or at like 3 am, this just isn't the case. Not to mention the groups that do this are freakin terrible and regularly lose to 2 or 3-man groups of higher skill.

 

Clearly BW doesn't see this as an issue and if they had data showing a mass exodus from PvP (which they did, 90% of PvPers quit after 1.2) because of premades, they would make a change. They may not know what PvPers want, but they certainly know what casuals desire and are more than willing to meet those needs if it means more players/more money. Obviously they have plenty of casuals from all areas of the game that enjoy hopping into warzones with their friends/guildies.

[Raansu]

You need to learn to business

 

And you need to learn how to play and stop whining about "premades" of 4 people in an 8 man team.

[Vember]

And you need to learn how to play and stop whining about "premades" of 4 people in an 8 man team.

 

Oh c'mon now, don't get upset, don't take my stance personally Besides, the premades are whining more than the casuals, just look at this thread. Some people in this thread are just terrified they won't be able to farm pug queues anymore. Just a guess, but I'd bet the number of pro-premade posters in this thread (and every other thread about premades) outnumber the others by a large factor.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Vember