Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Vaerah]

Something changed in the last 3-4 months, that change must have been bad as we saw nearly 4 times the population decay. I got it, it was Terrorists!

 

Point is, if you can point to Blizzard and say "They do smart stuff" I can point to it and say "Someone ****ed up."

 

Nothing relly strange, as I said WoW jumped the shark years ago and now each expansion is "more of the same".

 

People play it because they don't want to lose their huge time investment in their characters, then leave till the next, and hope for something new happens.

 

Something that will not happen, because WoW's fortune has been to copy the good ideas from other MMOs, but ATM there are not valid MMOs left to copy ideas from. WoW cannibalized everything and now dies by ideas starvation.

[Vaerah]

What do I want? X-server queues. I don't give a f**k if their hardware can't handle it; they need to figure it out, and fast. Above all other priorities, and not just for WZs but for PvE too. Anyone asking for any other solution to balance matches is asking for a bandaid over a sucking chest wound.

 

Their hardware could for sure handle it, as it consists of (few) dismissed servers hardware recycled in the new role.

 

They won't do it because:

 

- it's a MAJOR programming effort.

- therefore it's expensive and WILL cause downtimes and bugs

- BW / EA neither want to commit the effort (= money) nor want the effects (players quitting) caused by downtimes and bugs. Blizzard could do it, EA are not capable nor good willed enough to do it. Nor their pathetic beancounter attitude would allow the costs tied to it.

[Vaerah]

my biggest problem with this thread is that the majority of posters are in the lot that just lose a lot. they chalk it up to the other team having premades all the time. i run into this kind of player frequently; this is the guy who, after 1 score in huttball says "its a premade, lets just give up and let them score so it ends fast". to which i /facepalm. that is, sadly, what appears to be the average player in this game.

 

I can't say about the other servers but on ToFN knowing if the other team has a premade or not is quite simple: all their members have the same "known top RWZ" guild tag, they hit like a truck and kill even if we have healers, they don't die even putting 3 people focusing 1 (briefly) unhealed "squishie" of theirs.

[foxmob]

Please help yourself next time.

 

Posts like this are not necessary and not constructive, regardless of the reason or which side someone is on. When intelligent, thoughtful discourse is achieved, one's intent should not be to drag it back down into mudslinging. "He started it" or "eye for an eye" are not good enough justifications for rudeness, guys.

 

If you want respect in life, take the high road whenever possible and reserve your sarcasm, anger and aggression for issues that really matter, or where they might make a difference.

dude. go away. it's a joke. it's a joke I recycled FROM him, which makes it all the more tongue-in-cheek.

[Wainamoinen]

Except for two servers, the others don't and will likely never have the thriving pvp community necessary for your matchmaking solution to work regularly as the pool being drawn from just isn't large enough..

 

Just wanted to pick this up, as you've quoted it a couple of times and it seems flat wrong to me. And one way to get a "fact" generally accepted (that's a "fact" in the sense of nonsense that isn't actually a fact) is to repeat it without contradiction for a while.

 

First, I'm not sure where you come to this "two servers" figure from. If it's based on how many PvP servers there are, then which of Bastion, Pot5 or ToFN is dead? Never mind Jung-Ma (RP-PVP) and the non-English EU PvP servers (I don't know what they're like, beyond that some of their teams went to TOFN), though I wouldn't be surprised if they'd become quieter with people heading for the bigger PvP worlds.

 

Second, from my experience the claim that queues are getting longer and there are fewer people queueing for PvP is simply wrong. I have characters on TOFN, but my main's still on Red Eclipse (PvE) and I have a bunch of characters on Shadowlands (PvE) and there is no problem getting warzone pops on any of those.

 

Many of those interested in PvP left the PvE servers for PvP ones with transfers, but I've actually been surprised by the numbers of new people I've seen in warzones. On TRE, there are teams queueing for ranked that wouldn't before because they didn't want to face being repeatedly atomised by Nostrum or Reality Check. Now the top-end has been skimmed off to TOFN, there are more newbies poking their noses out of their PvE bunkers (an object lesson in how matchmaking to separate by skill would grow the PvP community, you could say).

 

There ARE no definite numbers available, so I suspect the "2 servers" claim is nothing more than a creaky assumption that sounds good when used to support other arguments. The TORstatus site only looks at what the server status is listed as, and because the same category can mean different things for different servers - or even for the same server as population caps change - they really tell you nothing much, and aren't useful for making comparisons over time or between servers.

 

If you do want an idea of actual numbers though, do a search on your server for "55 [wz name]", say "55 pit". That will tell you the number of level 55s currently in the zone from your faction. I checked on TRE a couple of weeks ago (can't remember time of day/week whcih would be crucial for comparisons), it came to about a hundred Rep 55s across all five warzones. Can roughly double that to include Imps. Maybe 12 warzones at 55 concurrently - that won't include those who are queueing but not in a warzone, of course, who are also pretty much PvPing at the same time (as in that's the game activity they're taking part in, just on break between warzones). If we say 2 mins between warzones, and an average warzone of 8 minutes (figures supplied by: My Behind), that would add another 25%. So 100 * 2 * 1.25 = 250 level 55 pvpers. Ish.

 

Actually, I might start properly recording these numbers. For fun. If I can be arsed.

 

TL;DR: populations aren't declining, transfers may actually have helped them overall; matchmaking ftw.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[Jadescythe]

 

I understand your frustration bud, but you have to look at both sides to see the whole picture. In the end it doesn't really matter why people are clamoring for a fix to the curbstomping issues---it only matters that they are. In life, people take their business elsewhere due to their own perceptions and opinions. If that big a segment of a population perceives a problem in a business model, they will stop giving you money unless you do something about it. Trying to convince them they're wrong for X reason isn't going to change anything.

 

Hell, I agree with you about bad players. It irritates me to no end when I'm solo pugging or queueing with my wife and everyone else on our team is playing whack-a-mole against one tank so far from every objective that they may as well be on a different map. But those players don't try to get better, they don't come to these forums, they either have fun or they leave the game.

 

You say no one is reading your arguments, but I could accuse you of the same because you keep holding up the "let's do matchmaking" sign without recognizing that on many servers this simply won't change anything. Bastion and Pot5 are probably the servers least in need of a fix for this (though there are still plenty of complaints there) and those are really the only two servers that matchmaking might work on in the present state of the game.

 

Look, I'm not one of the rabid "premades are evil" guys here. If people want to group with friends or even just group up for tactical reasons, they have that right. I would never presume to suggest that they don't deserve that right.

 

Sure, there are some real a-hole premades out there that truly piss in the swimming pool and ruin it for everyone (like the guy saying he happily exploits the crap out of rollbang against regs), but I would never assume that he represents ALL premaders.

 

We all want the same thing, bottom line. A healthy pvp experience. Until BW sucks it up and gets to work on X-Server, it's up to us to try and make the pvp a little more accomodating for the casuals / soloers who are getting frustrated and leaving. Is that likely to happen? Probably not, because most humans don't care about the other faceless guy behind the monitor and will continue to club baby seals happily until there are no more seals to club.

 

Ergo, if you can't twist the casuals' arms to make them improve, then the goods need to split up so the weight of all that bad is distributed more evenly.

 

And you're right----beating a coordinated premade while solo pugging is a glorious feeling, and when you get more than a couple of solid players on a pug team it really can happen. But you MUST remember----not everyone plays games like these to be the best, or hell, even to be good at it. Some folks just want to relax after a crappy day and shoot at stuff, catassing around without a care in the world. There are a LOT more of those guys than there are of us.

 

Drive those guys away from the game, and TOR loses money, our queues get longer, and we start to leave too. We may get pissed off every time some bad ignores a capper, doesn't call inc, allows himself to be a jump-post for the enemy ball carrier or a million other things, but without that population to pad out the numbers pretty soon we'll be trading blows against the same 8 guys for a few hours a day like it was back before FTP and Makeb----and then those guys will eventually be gone too.

 

Is this as impending a problem on POT5 and Bastion? I don't believe so, and it may never be. But not everyone who's serious about PvP enjoys PvP servers (I don't, but that's a whole different discussion). And on those other servers, the problem is already serious and matchmaking is not going to change a thing when there aren't enough people to get even a single match to pop regularly.

 

 

First off, I disagree with your entire first paragraph. The reason why people are complaining about games has EVERYTHING to do with this discussion. Just knowing that they are complaining doesn't resolve their issue and just giving them what they think they want isn't resolving their issue.

 

Essentially, people don't like losing badly. That's what we're saying, but you continue to make points about casual players who "just want to come home and shoot at stuff". If that's all they wanted, they're already getting that. If PvP is too hard for them, there are plenty of other ways in game to shoot at stuff that require no time commitment at all. They are choosing to face other players because they want the challenge of a human opponent. If they aren't willing to work to beat that opponent, then they really have no right to complain that they are losing.

 

But I digress, because we really want them to stay around. Not so we can beat them, but so we can have their money. Solo queue is one option that's been tossed out there, but most of us are against it because it doesn't solve the problem of lopsided teams in a random environment and even when it does help with games being closer in a solo queue, it won't help the group queue in any way at all.

 

On servers with a lower PvP population, well if the server is too small for matchmaking to help then solo queue isn't going to help either. Games are going to be matched with whoever is available or queue times will get so high that no one will even attempt to play. Unless BW finds an influx of players somewhere or gets cross-server going, then transferring is the only option for a healthier PvP population at this time. I think the idea that matchmaking is in place will increase participation at all levels both in regs and ranked. Whether or not people will stick it out long enough for ratings to be meaningful is another story entirely.

[TridusSWTOR]

TL;DR: populations aren't declining, transfers may actually have helped them overall; matchmaking ftw.

 

You just provided every reason to split the queue's since there is big enough population for it.

 

You still have yet to determine if there is a big enough skill pool to offer balanced matches with a matchmaking system.

 

Thanks for supporting lopsided matches and thanks for making a better case to split the queue's.

[TonyDragonflame]

Solo queue is one option that's been tossed out there, but most of us are against it .

 

"Us" - you mean you and your intestinal worms?

 

You must re-read all 500 pages for understand what there is no "us", there is majority of solo players who want solo only queue and several trolls premaders who dont want change current system.

[iDraxter]

will this thread really not die out already? Do ppl still not understand that the actual players doing bad choices ruin in fact wz`s?

1)Isn`t it always funny when the enemy has even just 1 healer...he s marked with a huge mark that screams "SMASH HERE" and yet always ignored the pugs are to busy hitting the wall(tank).......best part is when I`m queued as solo is when not only am I the only guy on the enemy healer but I have to always stop myself in the middle of every rotation because no1 gives a fck that there is 1 enemy capping the node/door/pylon.

2)Overcommiting 1 stealth pops at off node/pylon and 5 ppl leave mid to 6v1 a guy:confused:

3)not passing the ball/not going ahead to leap frog the ball over the fire traps/not using abilities, always grouped up with a milion sorc/sages and in 13 minutes of play i never see a single ally pull/giving that bastard jugg tank full resolve in the middle of nowhere and now he`s full resolved and cannot be pulled or stunned on fire GG, clearly the premades are to blame

4) I could go on and on with this...bottom line....L2P issue yet I would support a matchmaking system because obviously there needs to be some training ground for newcommers as alot of ppl really just never pvp till max lvl

[Jadescythe]

"Us" - you mean you and your intestinal worms?

 

You must re-read all 500 pages for understand what there is no "us", there is majority of solo players who want solo only queue and several trolls premaders who dont want change current system.

 

Nice snip on my quote there bud. I explained why most of us are against it because I can't speak for everyone who is against solo queue.

 

Feel free to watch me stream anytime. You'll almost always see me queue solo and sometimes queue with 1 other person. I think I've been in a 4 man for 2 matches in the last 3 months.

 

Also, supporting matchmaking IS a change to the system. Please don't post lies about me, it hurts Tony

[TonyDragonflame]

Nice snip on my quote there bud. I explained why most of us are against it because I can't speak for everyone who is against solo queue.

 

Feel free to watch me stream anytime. You'll almost always see me queue solo and sometimes queue with 1 other person. I think I've been in a 4 man for 2 matches in the last 3 months.

 

Also, supporting matchmaking IS a change to the system. Please don't post lies about me, it hurts Tony

 

I dont see any stream cuz I play the game and see own stream of playing.

 

There is no matchmaking in this game and never will be. Cuz queue time. Any matchmaking delay queue a lot.

There is no cross-server in this game and never will be. Cuz BW/EA money they dont want spend on it.

 

There is only one solution - solo only queue. Yes, there is can be still common queue, but solo only MUST BE, like premades already have their premades ONLY ranked queue.

 

/thread

[Jadescythe]

I dont see any stream cuz I play the game and see own stream of playing.

 

There is no matchmaking in this game and never will be. Cuz queue time. Any matchmaking delay queue a lot.

There is no cross-server in this game and never will be. Cuz BW/EA money they dont want spend on it.

 

There is only one solution - solo only queue. Yes, there is can be still common queue, but solo only MUST BE, like premades already have their premades ONLY ranked queue.

 

/thread

 

Yep, no way the queues would be delayed if we split groups from solo players.

 

If the population can support 2 queues, it can support matchmaking. It cannot, however, support both. Would you rather play against equally skilled players or ensure no one else knows anyone on their team? Seeing as a solo queue will still potentially give me bad players on my team and good ones on the other side, I'd prefer matchmaking.

[iDraxter]

I dont see any stream cuz I play the game and see own stream of playing.

 

There is no matchmaking in this game and never will be. Cuz queue time. Any matchmaking delay queue a lot.

There is no cross-server in this game and never will be. Cuz BW/EA money they dont want spend on it.

 

There is only one solution - solo only queue. Yes, there is can be still common queue, but solo only MUST BE, like premades already have their premades ONLY ranked queue.

 

/thread

how does that fix anything??? it`ll be just which team has the least amount off noobs wins, nothing will change and facing a premades does not mean sht that they are gods and the game is over already

[Doomsdaycomes]

What is this new fallacy being pushed by the solo-bracket base now?

 

Matchmaking delays queue's but splitting the population does not? Or am I suppose to read "Doesn't delay queue's for the PuG-bracket, and since I got mine har har, **** ya'll."

 

Matchmaking isn't a system change? Really?

 

Okay seriously, this is kind of pathetic. Couple new concepts introduced in the last few pages:

 

If there is enough population to support solo-only queue, there is enough to support matchmaking. True. Split queue's require more population due to need 2 large enough divided pieces to be effective in both brackets, while a smaller population can still be sorted.

 

If there is enough population for match making, there is enough for split queues. False. Split queue's require more population to be effective in both brackets (ignoring logistic issues too, I might add), while a smaller population can be sorted. Don't make me whip out some mathematics, I know arithmetic is hard for some people.

 

Matchmaking is an extension of the status quo on most servers. Half-truth/Assumption. If a population is below a critical mass, matchmaking will be ineffective. That critical mass is literally like... 8 pvp'ers per faction. At that point, PvP on your server is already ****ed.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[foxmob]

"Us" - you mean you and your intestinal worms?

 

You must re-read all 500 pages for understand what there is no "us", there is majority of solo players who want solo only queue and several trolls premaders who dont want change current system.

 

I chastised someone else for blatantly over simplifying the player population (think it was jade). you do so here as well. it's true that most solo Qers want a solo only option, it does not stand to reason that everyone who disagrees is a premading troll. there are a few anti-solo ppl in this thread who nitpick and claim ridiculously inconsequential reasons NOT to allow solo-only options ("what about grps of 3?"), but if you've read anything jade has said, he is not one of them.

[Doomsdaycomes]

On this post, we're in near complete agreement. At the end of the day, you are the kind of person I would enjoy pvping either with or against.

 

Remember gang----I'm not saying "Boo matchmaking," or hell even "Yay separate queues!" What I'm saying is that for most of the servers out there, nothing but X-Server or general improvements to the pvp scene luring more customers back is going to do much to help. I still believe that a solo only toggle might lure more casuals and solo puggers back to the game, but you will never catch me saying it is an ideal solution. Because yes, I agree that it could sabotage the queue times for premades (if premades are given no other option) and then those players will leave instead. And on the very worst servers, it could make queues die outright as you indicated or just force the premaders to cheat the system.

 

I'm only quoting little bits because that's the only parts I have comments/disagreements about.

 

I believe I told Maverick something along these lines as well: It's pointless to argue a point/concept against one option if you don't favor the other one. It really just confuses people as to where you stand. It happens, I'm guilty of it (both arguing a point for points sake and being confused as to someone's over all position). While you may feel it necessary that people see/agree that "PuG's have a justified reason to hate stealth teams" (made up example) unless that point is arguing for/against a specific solution it generally just throws fuel on the righteous indignation fire (from either side).

 

At this point, I'm just trying to drive home that casuals en masse have made their preferences clear in every MMO out there. Regardless of how you interpret Blizz's post on the subject, they and Rift have taken a very public stance on the matter which is obviously intended to placate those customers.

 

Yeah... I really don't want to go into this argument again, so I'll just say casual =/= PuG. Even if Blizz's stance was anti-competitive vs casual (which it was not, it was anti-super queue), the argument that casuals don't wish to fight competitive players is just as much (if not more) grounds for matchmaking than it is any other "solution".

[Doomsdaycomes]

I chastised someone else for blatantly over simplifying the player population (think it was jade). you do so here as well. it's true that most solo Qers want a solo only option, it does not stand to reason that everyone who disagrees is a premading troll. there are a few anti-solo ppl in this thread who nitpick and claim ridiculously inconsequential reasons NOT to allow solo-only options ("what about grps of 3?"), but if you've read anything jade has said, he is not one of them.

 

I think you missed the point of that discussion with me. I don't base the arguments I have against solo-only options on small, minute reasons, but I do present all the factors. If the only reason against solo-only options was "hurts 3-mans" I'd laugh at myself for suggesting against it.

 

My arguments though are a collaboration of all those factors. Logistics is one, meaning that more matches can be facilitated by allowing the game to assemble 8 man teams using 1's, 2's, 3's, and 4's. Consequentially, the most common way to even out a 3 is to use a 1. The only other option to make 8 using a 3 is 3, 3, and a 2.

 

In order for this not to cause issues, it was suggested 3-mans should be disallowed from queue'ing. Not only is that unfair to groups of 3, but its a further system change to make up for a weakness in an already weak solution.

 

So when you look at it, the split-queue option not only doesn't solve the problem (casual vs non-casual), it makes more problems that require more Band-Aid solutions, rather than just going with the optimal solution in the first place.

[Jadescythe]

I chastised someone else for blatantly over simplifying the player population (think it was jade). you do so here as well. it's true that most solo Qers want a solo only option, it does not stand to reason that everyone who disagrees is a premading troll. there are a few anti-solo ppl in this thread who nitpick and claim ridiculously inconsequential reasons NOT to allow solo-only options ("what about grps of 3?"), but if you've read anything jade has said, he is not one of them.

 

I appreciate the post.

 

I think a lot of this discussion is lost because of posts by the far left and far right of the argument being extremely vocal. Sometimes the loudest argument gets the most responses, which is why you typically see more troll responses on any given topic on a forum like this.

 

The most level-headed proponents of either side agree that both matchmaking and a solo queue will both be better than what we have now in terms of matches being more even. I think most of the discussion to be had is based on population of servers vs. the overall effectiveness of each solution. I see a lot of proponents of solo queue making a point that matchmaking is not effective if the population isn't big enough. It's a valid point, but I don't see the population being a problem. The other issue I typically see is BW's ability to create a working matchmaking system based on past experience. Which I think is the reason to keep it as simple as possible.

 

The matchmaking crowd is generally against solo queue because it's still random. It doesn't help good solo players avoid worse competition and it doesn't help bad players avoid better competition. Although, just based on the population who do each, many of the better players won't be in solo queue as often since they prefer to group. It also helps reduce the likelihood of one team having an ideal team comp since players aren't selected beforehand. Basically, solo queue helps makes matches closer to even more often, but still leaves things completely up to chance. There are some valid concerns regarding logistics of making a match in split queues, but I feel the strongest argument is that it doesn't solve the root problem.

 

Both sides are looking to improve PvP, for the most part. I'd just rather see a fix that reaches to the root of the problem, because I think the PvP pool will grow if players know that they will face even competition and can continue playing with their guild/friends without having to worry about split queue times. If you aren't extremely competitive, then you won't be seeing the types of competitive groups with ideal comps and full conqueror gear. But you may see some friends that are jumping in to have a good time after school/work.

[Doomsdaycomes]

While I want to reaffirm that I believe a solo-only option is redundant with a matchmaking system, healthy population, and that matchmaking system prioritizing by queue type, a thought had occurred to me.

 

A compromise (including the compromise that is already is queue type prioritization) could be the preference toggle/button. Now before ya'll say "That is solo-only toggle!" it's not like that. It's a preference toggle, meaning if there is more than one match available and there is a match that fits your preference, it will put you in that match vs. one you don't prefer.

 

As an example:

 

There are 3 possible matches of equally skilled players. One is going to be a Huttball of mixed queue types, one is a Novare of mixed, and the other is a Civil War that is pure PuG. A player saying "Prefer PuG-only" will be placed in the Pure PuG, while a player that doestn't can be placed in either. If -all- the spots fill up (based on queue order) for that Civil War, the remaining players are placed in the Huttball or Novare. Using and receiving a preferenced option yields -X% rewards for that match.

 

^ Could also allow warzone preference toggles, but disallow them from groups.

 

Just a thought.

 

Edit: In all fairness, there would also be a no-PuG toggle option, for those snooty premaders!

Edited July 19, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[DarthRaika]

Lets just all say "BW give us Matchmaking or Solo Q". People who have played pvp in a lot of mmos should know that matchmaking done properly would be the best solution though.

 

If you want the system to stay as is then you are a poor player who is carried by their premade.

 

And to people who want solo q more, you should realize that for solo q to work we will need to truly have teams randomized(as much as possible haha) which means pubs/imps on same team and player makeup decided once match starts. I would love this but I think a lot of puggers want it to stay pub v imp.

 

Of course imo the best case scenario would be matchmaking with pubs/imps on same team when needed.

 

Either way there are 2 decent options that shouldn't take BW too long to set up if they want to.

 

1. Matchmaking - 5-10 min wait time max for premades before they are put into regular Q.

 

2. Solo Q - Several possible variations of this but in any of them mixed and randomized teams will be required to stop sync q'n.

[TridusSWTOR]

What is this new fallacy being pushed by the solo-bracket base now?

 

Matchmaking delays queue's but splitting the population does not? Or am I suppose to read "Doesn't delay queue's for the PuG-bracket, and since I got mine har har, **** ya'll."

 

Matchmaking isn't a system change? Really?

 

Okay seriously, this is kind of pathetic. Couple new concepts introduced in the last few pages:

 

If there is enough population to support solo-only queue, there is enough to support matchmaking. True. Split queue's require more population due to need 2 large enough divided pieces to be effective in both brackets, while a smaller population can still be sorted.

 

If there is enough population for match making, there is enough for split queues. False. Split queue's require more population to be effective in both brackets (ignoring logistic issues too, I might add), while a smaller population can be sorted. Don't make me whip out some mathematics, I know arithmetic is hard for some people.

 

Matchmaking is an extension of the status quo on most servers. Half-truth/Assumption. If a population is below a critical mass, matchmaking will be ineffective. That critical mass is literally like... 8 pvp'ers per faction. At that point, PvP on your server is already ****ed.

 

And he still can't provide an answer that matchmaking won't consider group composition into play.

 

premade roflstomper wants roflstomp matches.

[Atramar]

And he still can't provide an answer that matchmaking won't consider group composition into play.

 

premade roflstomper wants roflstomp matches.

 

perfect premade with win 100% will be punished by weakest possible 'other 4', so no matter of best composition on earth, they will have to effectifly play for 2 each. so premade is 4x 100% win, will be grouped with 4x0%(so definetly muppets^5) win, against 8x50% win ratio. (just an example)

 

with field respec, it's quite impossible to account composition.

[Doomsdaycomes]

perfect premade with win 100% will be punished by weakest possible 'other 4', so no matter of best composition on earth, they will have to effectifly play for 2 each. so premade is 4x 100% win, will be grouped with 4x0%(so definetly muppets^5) win, against 8x50% win ratio. (just an example)

 

with field respec, it's quite impossible to account composition.

 

please don't feed trolls.

[Atramar]

please don't feed trolls.

 

sorry :9 I forget my self sometimes.

please accept my sincerest apologies

Edited July 19, 2013 by Atramar

[Doomsdaycomes]

sorry :9 I forget my self sometimes.

please accept my sincerest apologies

 

it's okay. People are naturally prone to want to correct stupid when they see it, it's why trolls lure people in by spewing garbage non-stop.