Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[otherworlder]

I don't know that it's a tantrum so much as a desperate desire to skew definitions in order to discredit a really rather obvious and widespread argument with growing industry support.

 

Google "premade vs pug" and you get countless pages from every MMO ever made-----all from casual players begging to be freed from this 'feature' in PvP.

 

What I can't understand is why people like Doom fight so hard to prevent it. Again, if pugstomping is not the source of his/her enjoyment and populations are more than healthy enough to sustain matchmaking, then they're also healthy enough to sustain separate queues.

 

In either case, Doom's source of fun should (in theory) not change unless:

 

a) he's being disingenuous and really does enjoy pugstomping, or

b) he does in fact realize that most of the servers have too tiny a pool to profit from matchmaking, and separate queues would in fact hurt his premade's queue times.

 

Nothing else makes sense.

[Doomsdaycomes]

What I can't understand is why some people feel so vehemently compelled to fight against a large portion of the playerbase getting to play the way they want.

 

If you don't get your enjoyment from pugstomping, then why in the world would this concern you?

 

If your argument is that populations are perfectly healthy across the board, then shouldn't your queue times be just fine if the feature was implemented?

 

Where is the downside for you? Or do you not really believe your own argument that pops are fine?

 

Oh boy, you've turned to this. First try lengthy intellectual posts, then out side sources, then finally an appeal to the humanity of the opposition.

 

First off, there is the issue of how large is the casual PuG, which to composes the majority of the split queue support base? Casuals certainly outnumber non-casual, but do casual pugs truly outnumber (or even come close) to casual groups + non-casuals?

 

Then the argument of population, etc. It's not that anyone knows if there is enough population, it a simple logical conclusion. If there isn't enough for a system to sort more even matches, there isn't enough for a population to be divided.

 

Where is the downside? Go back to my post about Rift. Everyone of those complaints (took a 10 minute search) has been presented in this thread against a split queue.

 

Simply put: We do care. We want more even matches, we want players to have fun regardless of queue type, we understand and sympathize with (for me, all groups). That solution needs to serve everyone, and it needs to be a well thought out one that targets the problem. The only solution that does that is matchmaking and if that isn't possible due to population... we're already ****ed.

 

Now a question to you. If memory serves a few posts back you stated you're not offering/supporting a solution (besides cross-server, which I personally do support) why the heck are you arguing at all? Simply to try and make a point with an out of context, misquoted article?

 

( this isn't directed at you, but I also see someone forgot how the burden of proof works. Someone makes a claim first, they support it.)

[Boch]

That argument is old, unfounded, and has been disavowed even by most of the pro-premaders in this thread. There can be awful players and terrific players on both sides, decided entirely by preference.

 

Their right to enjoy solo queueing is not less important than your right to enjoy premade queueing.

 

I solo que about 95% of the time. What I don't do is come to the forums complaining about premades when I lose, because I realize its a skill reason I lost, which is more about the derp on my own team.

 

And a solo que will break ques and it won't stop people from getting steam rolled. I don't want to steam roll anyone. I want fun and even matches. I also don't want idiots on my team.

 

I'm not pro premade, I'm pro balance.

 

So where is this proven evidence on what casuals want?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Boch

[Doomsdaycomes]

What I can't understand is why people like Doom fight so hard to prevent it. Again, if pugstomping is not the source of his/her enjoyment and populations are more than healthy enough to sustain matchmaking, then they're also healthy enough to sustain separate queues.

 

In either case, Doom's source of fun should (in theory) not change unless:

 

a) he's being disingenuous and really does enjoy pugstomping, or

b) he does in fact realize that most of the servers have too tiny a pool to profit from matchmaking, and separate queues would in fact hurt his premade's queue times.

 

Nothing else makes sense.

 

I'm curious why this is clearly addressing me, but is not addressed to me.

[TridusSWTOR]

What I can't understand is why some people feel so vehemently compelled to fight against a large portion of the playerbase getting to play the way they want.

 

If you don't get your enjoyment from pugstomping, then why in the world would this concern you?

 

If your argument is that populations are perfectly healthy across the board, then shouldn't your queue times be just fine if the feature was implemented?

 

Where is the downside for you? Or do you not really believe your own argument that pops are fine?

 

You nailed it on the head pretty much. They go in a back and forth situation of talking points that end up contradicting themselves.

 

You hear a lot of stories about people facing the same premade group over and over. Even if you wait out the queue timers a bit, you still end up facing them. That means there isn't a large pool of players doing PVP, which you stand correct. To them though, this can't possibly happen.

 

So to them, matchmaking will fix this because- 3 premade groups 4 solo pugs, all equal skill. Matchmaking will force the 4 solo pugs into facing double premade every time. That's not even touching on the fact that matchmaking doesn't weigh in group composition. You see why they want it now?

 

They want it because they'll still keep there queue times and still get a chance to play lopsided matches. I didn't even go into the area of people "gaming" the matchmaking system, which judging from the games history will eventually happen in some form or another.

 

Now you offer a split queue option- This is where they have trouble understanding, since they aren't long term thinkers(not a insult, it's just a fact). The situation now, and the one I listed above offers lopsided matches against premades and now those 4 pugs or whomever was on the stomped side just had a less than diseriable PVP experience.

 

Now they don't queue up the whole night, so that means nobody gets to play matches. The funny thing about that is, they used that same exact excuse for why split queue's shouldn't happen! Oh lordy lord. But, like I said before, they still get their lopsided matches, that's the main focus.

 

So now they threaten they will game the solo queue system and make sure they stack up things like they do in the current system. The funny thing is, you need 8 people to be clicking at the same time(That's reasonable with voice chat and all...oh wait voice chat isn't an advantage, my bad!), so chances are it's not going to as fruitful as they thought it would be.

 

Honestly a solo toggle option would be a solid idea. Seems like a nice middle ground. Also what would be great about that system is you can actually gauge which type of PVP people have more interest in. I'm betting a lot more people will sign up for that solo only option for some quick PVP matches that aren't against a stacked premade.

[otherworlder]

I'm curious why this is clearly addressing me, but is not addressed to me.

 

Because another poster accused you of throwing a tantrum, and it was directed at his comment. Do you object?

[Doomsdaycomes]

I don't know that it's a tantrum so much as a desperate desire to skew definitions in order to discredit a really rather obvious and widespread argument with growing industry support.

 

...

 

Nothing else makes sense.

 

On an aside, allow me to address that.

 

If the population is enough to support solo only queue's, it is enough to support matchmaking. This is irrefutable.

 

Matchmaking then targets the important issues: Gear, Win/Loss, Skill Indicators to create even matches without the logistical issue of filling and back fill that the split queue has. (Again, irrefutable that it is easier to make 8 out of a combination of 1's, 2, 3,'s, and 4's than it is to only do it with 2's, 3's, 4's. Mathematics do not lie.). If desired, matchmaking can even prioritize queue type.

 

These are all things lacking in the split queue options. So if you are truly for better matches, more players having fun:

 

Why would you trumpet (or by default choose for by fighting against matchmaking) the option with the least effectiveness, the highest potential for queues and players unable to play, that neither solves nor prevents the thing it sought out to stop: Lopsided matches that cause "Stomps"

 

 

( I was in a random today with another Operative. They went for a door, I went for it. I lured the guards, they planted. Match after match we ended up together (okay, every other match) and just by the sheer synergy of knowing our class and tactics mezz capped, coordinated knock downs, and generally stomped. I swear to sky-daddy above, not a single thing was typed or said between us, and the only acknowledgement of the other was we both (I think any way) Mvp'ed the other.)

[Doomsdaycomes]

Because another poster accused you of throwing a tantrum, and it was directed at his comment. Do you object?

 

Oh, gracias. That poster is on ignore and wasn't quoted, so my apologies.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[TridusSWTOR]

Simply put: We do care. We want more even matches, we want players to have fun regardless of queue type, we understand and sympathize with (for me, all groups). That solution needs to serve everyone, and it needs to be a well thought out one that targets the problem. The only solution that does that is matchmaking and if that isn't possible due to population... we're already ****ed.

)

 

See what I mean otherworlder?

 

It's a text book example of what they aren't saying.

 

Case closed.

[TridusSWTOR]

If the population is enough to support solo only queue's, it is enough to support matchmaking. This is irrefutable.

 

Matchmaking then targets the important issues: Gear, Win/Loss, Skill Indicators to create even matches without the logistical issue of filling and back fill that the split queue has. (Again, irrefutable that it is easier to make 8 out of a combination of 1's, 2, 3,'s, and 4's than it is to only do it with 2's, 3's, 4's. Mathematics do not lie.). If desired, matchmaking can even prioritize queue type.

 

These are all things lacking in the split queue options. So if you are truly for better matches, more players having fun:

 

See how he left out group composition being a factor that matchmaking will have no control over? Just gotta read in between the lines. They are selling something that keeps the situation the same.

 

They are all for even matches....but are fine facing 2 premades with a great group comp. Sounds fishy too me.

 

I bolded the last part because you have to wonder, who truly is for better matches and more players having fun? I can tell you this guy isn't.

 

I gotta give you props otherworlder, you made very good cases and even dealt with the natural insults they eventually resorted too.

Edited July 18, 2013 by TridusSWTOR

[otherworlder]

Oh boy, you've turned to this. First try lengthy intellectual posts, then out side sources, then finally an appeal to the humanity of the opposition.

 

First off, there is the issue of how large is the casual PuG, which to composes the majority of the split queue support base? Casuals certainly outnumber non-casual, but do casual pugs truly outnumber (or even come close) to casual groups + non-casuals?

 

Then the argument of population, etc. It's not that anyone knows if there is enough population, it a simple logical conclusion. If there isn't enough for a system to sort more even matches, there isn't enough for a population to be divided.

 

Where is the downside? Go back to my post about Rift. Everyone of those complaints (took a 10 minute search) has been presented in this thread against a split queue.

 

Simply put: We do care. We want more even matches, we want players to have fun regardless of queue type, we understand and sympathize with (for me, all groups). That solution needs to serve everyone, and it needs to be a well thought out one that targets the problem. The only solution that does that is matchmaking and if that isn't possible due to population... we're already ****ed.

 

Now a question to you. If memory serves a few posts back you stated you're not offering/supporting a solution (besides cross-server, which I personally do support) why the heck are you arguing at all? Simply to try and make a point with an out of context, misquoted article?

 

( this isn't directed at you, but I also see someone forgot how the burden of proof works. Someone makes a claim first, they support it.)

 

 

Turned to what? Intellectual posts, appeals to humanity and outside supporting sources are all good things in a debate. Would you prefer I just shout insults at you?

 

As I said to another poster above... relax, calm down, don't take it so personal. Snark is funny amongst friends, in an intelligent debate among strangers it is not needed nor does it help your argument.

 

As to your comments/questions:

 

I have no data to give you on the incidence of casual premades vs competitive premades. Anecdotally, I'd argue that casual players are much less likely to put a group together in the first place, and that I see far more decent-good premades than ones that stink out loud. YMMV on this. Regardless, at first glance there's no real way to tell whether a premade is going to be highly organized/ effective or is just a bunch of clowns catassing around together, and often the perception of a premade is enough to make casuals start WZ bailing.

 

As far as your Rift links: they seem to be almost entirely premades complaining about longer queue times, no? If nothing else, that proves that there are indeed a lot more solo-queuers than group queuers, and in the immortal words of Mister Spock: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

 

The more people enjoying pvp, the better the game does, the bigger the population gets, the faster queues get for everyone. Premades are in the minority; their preferences and queue speeds should not be more important than the majority. For every Rift post complaining about the new system, there are a whole hell of a lot more posts that begged for it.

 

As for why I'm here? I'm not here to troll, to misquote (which I haven't; I linked the whole article, people can interpret it as they wish) or to cry that the sky is falling. Do I believe that matchmaking would be a great idea if the populations were healthy? Absolutely. Do I believe separate queues would be a great idea if the populations were healthy? Absolutely.

 

Are the pvp populations healthy? Of course not, unless you're talking about Pot5 or Bastion, especially after the Xfers.

 

What do I want? X-server queues. I don't give a f**k if their hardware can't handle it; they need to figure it out, and fast. Above all other priorities, and not just for WZs but for PvE too. Anyone asking for any other solution to balance matches is asking for a bandaid over a sucking chest wound.

 

I was here before FTP and watched queue times at endgame on my server strangle out due to BW's mismanagement, and tons of bored premades with really ****** attitudes toward their fellow players. You know what happened? Those players stopped playing, including myself and eventually the premades had no one to beat up on. I've just come back to this game after a long hiatus, and I don't want to see it happen again, even though the signs are all the same (shrinking servers, transfers, big pvp promises that turn into trainwrecks).

 

And yet, here people are again fighting tooth and claw to preserve the right to beat the holy bananas out of uncoordinated, unprepared solo players for the LOLs.

 

What I would like is for pro-premaders to ask themselves why they are so dead set against allowing solo puggers to play the way they want, and to ask themselves if the PvP community might thrive more if they decided to once in awhile spread their skill around to help the newcomers rather than drive them into the dirt and out of the game.

[otherworlder]

On an aside, allow me to address that.

 

If the population is enough to support solo only queue's, it is enough to support matchmaking. This is irrefutable.

 

Matchmaking then targets the important issues: Gear, Win/Loss, Skill Indicators to create even matches without the logistical issue of filling and back fill that the split queue has. (Again, irrefutable that it is easier to make 8 out of a combination of 1's, 2, 3,'s, and 4's than it is to only do it with 2's, 3's, 4's. Mathematics do not lie.). If desired, matchmaking can even prioritize queue type.

 

These are all things lacking in the split queue options. So if you are truly for better matches, more players having fun:

 

Why would you trumpet (or by default choose for by fighting against matchmaking) the option with the least effectiveness, the highest potential for queues and players unable to play, that neither solves nor prevents the thing it sought out to stop: Lopsided matches that cause "Stomps"

 

 

( I was in a random today with another Operative. They went for a door, I went for it. I lured the guards, they planted. Match after match we ended up together (okay, every other match) and just by the sheer synergy of knowing our class and tactics mezz capped, coordinated knock downs, and generally stomped. I swear to sky-daddy above, not a single thing was typed or said between us, and the only acknowledgement of the other was we both (I think any way) Mvp'ed the other.)

 

If the population were healthy and no other solution was put on the table, I'd be thrilled for matchmaking. I tend to group often with my wife, so that solution would be better for us than a solo-only queue.

 

But I'm not looking at just my enjoyment, I'm looking at the game's health and sustainability.

 

Matchmaking would ensure more balanced matches to a point, but remember: If you take 4 skilled players with no experience playing together, no opportunity to set up a good comp, and no voice chat, and put them against 4 equally skilled players who know each other's playstyles, have arranged a good comp in advance, and are all coordinating via voice chat... the problem is still the same.

 

Will those matches be a lot closer than the curbstompings so common at 55 now? Yes, they'll be closer. But you can't deny that the 4 randoms, even if equally skilled, will still be at a disadvantage to the 4 who are coordinating. It's just common sense.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Turned to what? Intellectual posts...

 

Generally appeals to the oppositions humanity come as a last stance, after intellectual posts, sources, logical arguments prove unfruitful.

 

In a turn of events, I shall focus this post on things we do agree on (or I think we agree on):

 

1.) Cross-servers really are needed. Dev issues, server hardware, what ever aside, it's needed. Simple as that.

 

2.) Matchmaking is a great idea.

 

3.) Players should have fun (as subjective as that is) regardless of queue type or play style.

 

4.) Generally people should be nice to each other. I'd personally love to see some warnings/temp bans for abusive chat (whether to team mates or opponents.

 

5.) Queue Sync/Gaming the system to intentionally get a full premade is bad, and if intention can be proven I would favor punishment/temp bans for this behavior depending on severity.

 

 

About the only thing we don't agree on is a split-queue option for logistical (and ineffective) issues.

 

If its any consolation, whether these things are perceived or not I think that matchmaking should also include a queue type criteria for a decent portion of its search (5 minutes? random numbers are random.) And we should be talking 45-60 minute queues before it ever does a double premade vs a pug (assuming faction imbalance. If same faction it better be 4-man +4 pugs vs 4-man + 4 pugs.)

 

Edit: Just gonna add this rather than another post, and this is likely my last for today. Work tonight!

 

Will those matches be a lot closer than the curbstompings so common at 55 now? Yes, they'll be closer. But you can't deny that the 4 randoms, even if equally skilled, will still be at a disadvantage to the 4 who are coordinating. It's just common sense.

 

I feel a win/loss criteria will help clear this disparity. If 4 pugs end up on an equal rating as a 4 man, it's due to a continue win/loss ratio meaning either:

 

There is no difference between them (based on comp, coordination, and other grey areas of the 4 skilled randoms =/= 4 skilled grouped.) -or- the PuGs personal skill exceeds that of the grouped players but is equal to those 4-grouped player "group advantage."

 

It's a rough estimate, but it is better than first come, first serve.

 

Gah, Edit 2: Got to say, on an aside note that I love playing with S.O duos. Some of the most fun, relaxed, and reliable friends have been S.O's. In fact (they're not really an S.O but...) one of my best friends and I are so in sync, half the time people assume we're partners.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[cashogy_reborn]

Learn to debate and discuss topics without insults friend, or you undermine your own position. Insults make you look childish and make people think you have so little faith in your own position that you get angry, or that you're resorting to it because you're taking it too personally.

 

Also, if you're right, awesome. But many on the pvp boards have very little faith that Arenas will not end up just like RWZs did... a botched experiment where the cream (OP comps and better players) will rise to the top and the vast majority of the remaining premades will return to pugstomping in regs to get their confidence back up.

 

I very much hope you're right, but BW (and the pvp community's) track record on this point is not encouraging.

 

i have debated and discussed in this thread. a crap ton. and in quite a pleasant manner for the most part. that was pages and pages and pages ago. and any logical argument is almost entirely ignored.

 

you want a real solution to this problem? skill based matchmaking. its the only solution that is going to result in better quality warzones over time. a solo-only queue will devolve into "super-queue" groups again. ive discussed this in stupid depth, in this very thread. repeating myself, and being ignored, gets old fast. which is why im not interested in engaging blatant whining with nothing but sarcasm now. if people want to continue to just flat out whine about the same thing over and over and over again, im not going to expend much effort in debating them.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/Cikl5VH.jpg

 

i posted that screenshot in this thread. its a 4-man premade (opposing team) vs a full pug group (my team). look at that screenshot, and tell me why we lost.

 

http://i.imgur.com/f5Dsc6P.jpg

 

theres another screenshot (also posted in this thread already), of a 4-man premade (opposing team) vs a full pug group (my team). care to tell me why we won?

 

both premades i was against in those screenshots are players that do/have done RWZ. care to explain why one PUG team got absolutely stomped, and the other was able to pull out a pretty comfortable win?

 

 

as far as arenas go, maybe it will be like RWZ, maybe it wont. heres to hoping that there is a skill based matchmaking system so new teams arent discouraged quickly.

 

 

 

separating the queues is not going to solve the root of this problem, which is that lower skilled players dont want to be forced to play higher skilled players. until you can accept that that is the core complaint here, and understand that separating based on skill level (and not gear, queue type, frequency of play, etc) is the only way to address that appropriately, im not going to bother debating anyone.

[otherworlder]

i have debated and discussed in this thread. a crap ton. and in quite a pleasant manner for the most part. that was pages and pages and pages ago. and any logical argument is almost entirely ignored.

 

you want a real solution to this problem? skill based matchmaking. its the only solution that is going to result in better quality warzones over time. a solo-only queue will devolve into "super-queue" groups again. ive discussed this in stupid depth, in this very thread. repeating myself, and being ignored, gets old fast. which is why im not interested in engaging blatant whining with nothing but sarcasm now. if people want to continue to just flat out whine about the same thing over and over and over again, im not going to expend much effort in debating them.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/Cikl5VH.jpg

 

i posted that screenshot in this thread. its a 4-man premade (opposing team) vs a full pug group (my team). look at that screenshot, and tell me why we lost.

 

http://i.imgur.com/f5Dsc6P.jpg

 

theres another screenshot (also posted in this thread already), of a 4-man premade (opposing team) vs a full pug group (my team). care to tell me why we won?

 

both premades i was against in those screenshots are players that do/have done RWZ. care to explain why one PUG team got absolutely stomped, and the other was able to pull out a pretty comfortable win?

 

 

as far as arenas go, maybe it will be like RWZ, maybe it wont. heres to hoping that there is a skill based matchmaking system so new teams arent discouraged quickly.

 

 

 

separating the queues is not going to solve the root of this problem, which is that lower skilled players dont want to be forced to play higher skilled players. until you can accept that that is the core complaint here, and understand that separating based on skill level (and not gear, queue type, frequency of play, etc) is the only way to address that appropriately, im not going to bother debating anyone.

 

I understand your frustration bud, but you have to look at both sides to see the whole picture. In the end it doesn't really matter why people are clamoring for a fix to the curbstomping issues---it only matters that they are. In life, people take their business elsewhere due to their own perceptions and opinions. If that big a segment of a population perceives a problem in a business model, they will stop giving you money unless you do something about it. Trying to convince them they're wrong for X reason isn't going to change anything.

 

Hell, I agree with you about bad players. It irritates me to no end when I'm solo pugging or queueing with my wife and everyone else on our team is playing whack-a-mole against one tank so far from every objective that they may as well be on a different map. But those players don't try to get better, they don't come to these forums, they either have fun or they leave the game.

 

You say no one is reading your arguments, but I could accuse you of the same because you keep holding up the "let's do matchmaking" sign without recognizing that on many servers this simply won't change anything. Bastion and Pot5 are probably the servers least in need of a fix for this (though there are still plenty of complaints there) and those are really the only two servers that matchmaking might work on in the present state of the game.

 

Look, I'm not one of the rabid "premades are evil" guys here. If people want to group with friends or even just group up for tactical reasons, they have that right. I would never presume to suggest that they don't deserve that right.

 

Sure, there are some real a-hole premades out there that truly piss in the swimming pool and ruin it for everyone (like the guy saying he happily exploits the crap out of rollbang against regs), but I would never assume that he represents ALL premaders.

 

We all want the same thing, bottom line. A healthy pvp experience. Until BW sucks it up and gets to work on X-Server, it's up to us to try and make the pvp a little more accomodating for the casuals / soloers who are getting frustrated and leaving. Is that likely to happen? Probably not, because most humans don't care about the other faceless guy behind the monitor and will continue to club baby seals happily until there are no more seals to club.

 

Ergo, if you can't twist the casuals' arms to make them improve, then the goods need to split up so the weight of all that bad is distributed more evenly.

 

And you're right----beating a coordinated premade while solo pugging is a glorious feeling, and when you get more than a couple of solid players on a pug team it really can happen. But you MUST remember----not everyone plays games like these to be the best, or hell, even to be good at it. Some folks just want to relax after a crappy day and shoot at stuff, catassing around without a care in the world. There are a LOT more of those guys than there are of us.

 

Drive those guys away from the game, and TOR loses money, our queues get longer, and we start to leave too. We may get pissed off every time some bad ignores a capper, doesn't call inc, allows himself to be a jump-post for the enemy ball carrier or a million other things, but without that population to pad out the numbers pretty soon we'll be trading blows against the same 8 guys for a few hours a day like it was back before FTP and Makeb----and then those guys will eventually be gone too.

 

Is this as impending a problem on POT5 and Bastion? I don't believe so, and it may never be. But not everyone who's serious about PvP enjoys PvP servers (I don't, but that's a whole different discussion). And on those other servers, the problem is already serious and matchmaking is not going to change a thing when there aren't enough people to get even a single match to pop regularly.

[otherworlder]

And believe me, Cash----I pray you're right about the new arenas and BW somehow gets it right where Blizz couldn't. I desperately hope enough people can play in that pool without getting roflstomped back to regs that the hardcore competitive pvpers gradually separate from the casuals in regs so both populations can have their fun the way they want.

 

Hell, I'll do it myself if they get it right and gimmicks/ comps don't become the deciding factors.

 

Maybe arguing about this subject is entirely pointless at the end of the day, because many servers have likely already passed the point where any kind of separation or matchmaking is going to make a difference. I just hate the thought that in order to get a PvP fix everyone is going to have to cram onto one of only two servers. It reminds me of the Fatman clamor the last time around, and everyone knows where that was headed before ftp bailed some of the water out.

[otherworlder]

Generally appeals to the oppositions humanity come as a last stance, after intellectual posts, sources, logical arguments prove unfruitful.

 

In a turn of events, I shall focus this post on things we do agree on (or I think we agree on):

 

1.) Cross-servers really are needed. Dev issues, server hardware, what ever aside, it's needed. Simple as that.

 

2.) Matchmaking is a great idea.

 

3.) Players should have fun (as subjective as that is) regardless of queue type or play style.

 

4.) Generally people should be nice to each other. I'd personally love to see some warnings/temp bans for abusive chat (whether to team mates or opponents.

 

5.) Queue Sync/Gaming the system to intentionally get a full premade is bad, and if intention can be proven I would favor punishment/temp bans for this behavior depending on severity.

 

 

About the only thing we don't agree on is a split-queue option for logistical (and ineffective) issues.

 

If its any consolation, whether these things are perceived or not I think that matchmaking should also include a queue type criteria for a decent portion of its search (5 minutes? random numbers are random.) And we should be talking 45-60 minute queues before it ever does a double premade vs a pug (assuming faction imbalance. If same faction it better be 4-man +4 pugs vs 4-man + 4 pugs.)

 

Edit: Just gonna add this rather than another post, and this is likely my last for today. Work tonight!

 

 

 

I feel a win/loss criteria will help clear this disparity. If 4 pugs end up on an equal rating as a 4 man, it's due to a continue win/loss ratio meaning either:

 

There is no difference between them (based on comp, coordination, and other grey areas of the 4 skilled randoms =/= 4 skilled grouped.) -or- the PuGs personal skill exceeds that of the grouped players but is equal to those 4-grouped player "group advantage."

 

It's a rough estimate, but it is better than first come, first serve.

 

Gah, Edit 2: Got to say, on an aside note that I love playing with S.O duos. Some of the most fun, relaxed, and reliable friends have been S.O's. In fact (they're not really an S.O but...) one of my best friends and I are so in sync, half the time people assume we're partners.

 

On this post, we're in near complete agreement. At the end of the day, you are the kind of person I would enjoy pvping either with or against.

 

Remember gang----I'm not saying "Boo matchmaking," or hell even "Yay separate queues!" What I'm saying is that for most of the servers out there, nothing but X-Server or general improvements to the pvp scene luring more customers back is going to do much to help. I still believe that a solo only toggle might lure more casuals and solo puggers back to the game, but you will never catch me saying it is an ideal solution. Because yes, I agree that it could sabotage the queue times for premades (if premades are given no other option) and then those players will leave instead. And on the very worst servers, it could make queues die outright as you indicated or just force the premaders to cheat the system.

 

At this point, I'm just trying to drive home that casuals en masse have made their preferences clear in every MMO out there. Regardless of how you interpret Blizz's post on the subject, they and Rift have taken a very public stance on the matter which is obviously intended to placate those customers.

 

My dream scenario is a healthy pvp population, X-server queues, an intelligent matchmaking system, AND the ability to opt out of playing against premades if that's what you want to do (without that causing anyone else to take a queue hit because there's a sustainable pool to draw from). While I'm wishing for all of that, I'd also like a pony.

 

Matchmaking could work; it would be great if it did. Do I trust BW to design an intelligent, well-reasoned matchmaker that accounts for win/loss, valor, gear, comp, whatever? No, I really don't. Look at Bolster. BW has a track record of doing poorly with complex systems.

 

Could they implement a solo toggle without screwing it up? Sure; that's monkey work.

 

Is either a solution right now for most servers? Probably not. Therein lies the issue.

 

And yes, my wife and I are usually very laid back in PvP even in the face of rampant stupidity on our team. We do our best to try and encourage, instruct, strategize, explain and educate the less experienced pvpers, but... results vary, as I'm sure any good player who solo queues knows (there are nightmare teams of puggers out there so bad they'd make Mother Theresa start dropping F-bombs).

 

My idea of a solution at this point would be one of these:

 

A) X-Server (I know... dead horse, but it's really that or bust)

B) A dedicated PvP content patch that expands options for all flavors of pvper (fix all of the bugs/exploits, bring the ACs in line with others that perform the same roles, Ranked season 1 with incentives, objectives for areas like Outlaw's Den, a TON more WZs with fun, innovative gameplay like Huttball rather than four flavors of "I don't trust my teammates so I'm stuck defending all game", leveling areas that actually intersect cross-faction and encourage dynamic same-level pvp, etc). If BW put the resources into something like that and then shouted it from the rooftops, the pvp population would boom again and options like matchmaking, separate queues, etc could be implemented with much greater ease and a minimum of discomfort for all parties.

[cashogy_reborn]

cross server isnt even in the picture though. the devs have confirmed its not in development, and isnt even being discussed about development in the future.

 

cross server would be a huge long-term financial investment from EA, and based on their actions with this game so far they are more interested in ways to make a quick buck.

 

i agree cross server is the ideal solution in any case. maximize the PvP population and you decrease the odds of bad eggs ruining people's experiences.

 

 

part of my frustration is that most people are unable to differentiate between their own/their teammate's lack of skill and being beat by incredibly skilled team. in most cases, its lack of skill; however, there are groups (even 4-mans) that just steamroll you and it sucks.

 

i solo queue a lot. there are plenty of times where i get matched against a premade/2 premades and have a full PUG on my-side with average/less than average players. its not gonna be a fun warzone, but its like a bandaid; rip it off quick and it only stings for a sec. take your licks, collect your comms, and queue again. in that kind of situation, its just a bad match-up.

 

my biggest problem with this thread is that the majority of posters are in the lot that just lose a lot. they chalk it up to the other team having premades all the time. i run into this kind of player frequently; this is the guy who, after 1 score in huttball says "its a premade, lets just give up and let them score so it ends fast". to which i /facepalm. that is, sadly, what appears to be the average player in this game.

 

if you (everyone) are losing often, instead of blaming your opponents, place some of the blame on yourself. everyone starts out as a noob; the only way you get better is learn from all your nooby mistakes and try to not make them again. if even half of the "lets just quit" players tried to improve upon one mistake a day, warzones would improve in quality all on their own.

 

instead, i see players barely capable of breaking 200k damage in a full 15 minute voidstar match quite regularly. or not calling incomings in ops chat. or not using their CC to help take objectives. or any number of little mistakes that take merely a moment of thought process, but usually have insurmountable significance. ffs, most of the player base dont understand how a compass rose works.

 

 

 

 

regarding matchmaking, on a low pop server it will not make much difference. but in that case, a solo queue would be terrible; dividing the available PvP population is not a good idea. and imo, using low pop servers as benchmarks for success is not a good thing to do.

 

i see many people say that the solo queuer is in the majority, and better quality matches is what the majority wants. should we not then focus on improving the quality of matches for the majority of the population? which means matchmaking, which would have a significant positive impact on healthy servers. if your queue times are not short enough or the competition is overwhelming/stale, you can now transfer to a better server.

 

 

 

 

ive said these things multiple times in this thread. and it seems to go unnoticed; im sure by morning it will be buried under 4 more pages of stupid bickering and crying about something that someone has no direct control over.

[HaLeX]

The solution to being forced to fight premades is very simple. Just keep quitting until you get a pug vs pug. At first I was shocked by the amount of quitting on POT5, but I now notice the games I stay in are much more competitive and enjoyable and the W/L ratio is around 50%.

[otherworlder]

cross server isnt even in the picture though. the devs have confirmed its not in development, and isnt even being discussed about development in the future.

 

cross server would be a huge long-term financial investment from EA, and based on their actions with this game so far they are more interested in ways to make a quick buck.

 

i agree cross server is the ideal solution in any case. maximize the PvP population and you decrease the odds of bad eggs ruining people's experiences.

 

 

part of my frustration is that most people are unable to differentiate between their own/their teammate's lack of skill and being beat by incredibly skilled team. in most cases, its lack of skill; however, there are groups (even 4-mans) that just steamroll you and it sucks.

 

i solo queue a lot. there are plenty of times where i get matched against a premade/2 premades and have a full PUG on my-side with average/less than average players. its not gonna be a fun warzone, but its like a bandaid; rip it off quick and it only stings for a sec. take your licks, collect your comms, and queue again. in that kind of situation, its just a bad match-up.

 

my biggest problem with this thread is that the majority of posters are in the lot that just lose a lot. they chalk it up to the other team having premades all the time. i run into this kind of player frequently; this is the guy who, after 1 score in huttball says "its a premade, lets just give up and let them score so it ends fast". to which i /facepalm. that is, sadly, what appears to be the average player in this game.

 

if you (everyone) are losing often, instead of blaming your opponents, place some of the blame on yourself. everyone starts out as a noob; the only way you get better is learn from all your nooby mistakes and try to not make them again. if even half of the "lets just quit" players tried to improve upon one mistake a day, warzones would improve in quality all on their own.

 

instead, i see players barely capable of breaking 200k damage in a full 15 minute voidstar match quite regularly. or not calling incomings in ops chat. or not using their CC to help take objectives. or any number of little mistakes that take merely a moment of thought process, but usually have insurmountable significance. ffs, most of the player base dont understand how a compass rose works.

 

 

 

 

regarding matchmaking, on a low pop server it will not make much difference. but in that case, a solo queue would be terrible; dividing the available PvP population is not a good idea. and imo, using low pop servers as benchmarks for success is not a good thing to do.

 

i see many people say that the solo queuer is in the majority, and better quality matches is what the majority wants. should we not then focus on improving the quality of matches for the majority of the population? which means matchmaking, which would have a significant positive impact on healthy servers. if your queue times are not short enough or the competition is overwhelming/stale, you can now transfer to a better server.

 

 

 

 

ive said these things multiple times in this thread. and it seems to go unnoticed; im sure by morning it will be buried under 4 more pages of stupid bickering and crying about something that someone has no direct control over.

 

The world you're calling for simply doesn't exist. There is a small percentage of people who want to be the best they can be at their hobby; the rest just don't care, or already think they ARE the best (they're not) and when things don't go right, they leave.

 

I wish everyone who pvped was willing and able to learn. The sad truth is they just won't, and telling them to get better or get the hell out will yield precisely that----they'll leave, and queue times will get worse.

 

I don't like that fact any better than you do. But it's where gaming is going, and sadly it's human nature for a lot of things. We need to accomodate those players in some way, because to them TOR is not worth being great at; it's just a silly game to screw around in, and the moment they perceive that they're being unfairly dumped in as bait for the sharks, they'll move on to something else.

 

I'm like you, to a point. Back before ftp when endgame pvp was really active, I'd run into a practiced premade, try my hardest, get drilled into the ground while people quit all around me, get annoyed, and soldier on. But eventually (at least on my server) the premades stompings were 2 out of every 3 matches because no one but the seasoned premades were even bothering to queue at endgame anymore.

 

I'm content pulling off the bandaid as you said, but when all you find underneath is another bandaid... you just stop queuing. Especially if you're only queuing for fun, not for gear grinding (which bolster has largely screwed up, but that's another subject).

 

Now it seems like a lot of servers are going back in that direction again. And holding up server transfers to one of only 2 pvp servers as a healthy solution is just not going to work for a lot of reasons. Many (like me) simply don't trust BW enough to give them $60+ dollars to transfer all of our toons. And even if we did... remember the Fatman? We've seen where this road leads before. Abandoning the servers with smaller pvp populations (and populations in general) to suffer hour long or nearly infinite queues is not a smart business move.

[cashogy_reborn]

The world you're calling for simply doesn't exist. There is a small percentage of people who want to be the best they can be at their hobby; the rest just don't care, or already think they ARE the best (they're not) and when things don't go right, they leave.

 

I wish everyone who pvped was willing and able to learn. The sad truth is they just won't, and telling them to get better or get the hell out will yield precisely that----they'll leave, and queue times will get worse.

 

I don't like that fact any better than you do. But it's where gaming is going, and sadly it's human nature for a lot of things. We need to accomodate those players in some way, because to them TOR is not worth being great at; it's just a silly game to screw around in, and the moment they perceive that they're being unfairly dumped in as bait for the sharks, they'll move on to something else.

 

I'm like you, to a point. Back before ftp when endgame pvp was really active, I'd run into a practiced premade, try my hardest, get drilled into the ground while people quit all around me, get annoyed, and soldier on. But eventually (at least on my server) the premades stompings were 2 out of every 3 matches because no one but the seasoned premades were even bothering to queue at endgame anymore.

 

I'm content pulling off the bandaid as you said, but when all you find underneath is another bandaid... you just stop queuing. Especially if you're only queuing for fun, not for gear grinding (which bolster has largely screwed up, but that's another subject).

 

Now it seems like a lot of servers are going back in that direction again. And holding up server transfers to one of only 2 pvp servers as a healthy solution is just not going to work for a lot of reasons. Many (like me) simply don't trust BW enough to give them $60+ dollars to transfer all of our toons. And even if we did... remember the Fatman? We've seen where this road leads before. Abandoning the servers with smaller pvp populations (and populations in general) to suffer hour long or nearly infinite queues is not a smart business move.

 

i guess im old school; i can remember a time when the people that wanted to master their hobby were the majority.

 

what frustrates me the most is how little effort is really required to become 'good'. for all intents and purposes, i am a casual player. 1-2 hours a night tops, occasionally on the weekends for a bit longer. but that doesnt stop me from wanting to be good.

 

there are plenty of people that say "its just a video game, its not work. who cares how i do?", but what is so bad about trying to excel at everything you do? its almost as if becoming skilled at a video game is somehow demeaning. and its reflected in the community; "no-lifers" and worse terms are thrown around as if a skilled player is somehow a plague to society.

 

its hard to explain. on a fundamental level, i am competitive. i think that is a trait that is starting to become more and more rare, and not just in video games. i just cannot fathom how someone can lack the desire to win, and to perform as best as they can. i mean, is that not the basis for the complaints in this thread? players upset that they are not winning as much as they would like.

 

i think its a sad reflection on society as a whole. if someone is better than you, knock them down a peg so its "fair".

 

 

anyways, all of this debating is moot. bioware is likely going to be taking no action on this either way. which is unfortunate.

[otherworlder]

i guess im old school; i can remember a time when the people that wanted to master their hobby were the majority.

 

what frustrates me the most is how little effort is really required to become 'good'. for all intents and purposes, i am a casual player. 1-2 hours a night tops, occasionally on the weekends for a bit longer. but that doesnt stop me from wanting to be good.

 

there are plenty of people that say "its just a video game, its not work. who cares how i do?", but what is so bad about trying to excel at everything you do? its almost as if becoming skilled at a video game is somehow demeaning. and its reflected in the community; "no-lifers" and worse terms are thrown around as if a skilled player is somehow a plague to society.

 

its hard to explain. on a fundamental level, i am competitive. i think that is a trait that is starting to become more and more rare, and not just in video games. i just cannot fathom how someone can lack the desire to win, and to perform as best as they can. i mean, is that not the basis for the complaints in this thread? players upset that they are not winning as much as they would like.

 

i think its a sad reflection on society as a whole. if someone is better than you, knock them down a peg so its "fair".

 

 

anyways, all of this debating is moot. bioware is likely going to be taking no action on this either way. which is unfortunate.

 

98% agreed. I don't choose to partake in something unless I'm prepared to do my best at it, and learn to get better than I start out. I'm very competitive, I don't want to lose, but I'm okay with it as long as there's competition and fun involved. You often learn more from losses than wins, if you're paying attention to why you lost.

 

I don't think any of these things are bad. In fact I daresay they're solid qualities in a human being as long as it doesn't go overboard.

 

But I'm a realist. When I log in at random crazy hours, I want my queue to pop. If that means we need to bend a little (or even a lot) to accommodate folks who are either: a) lazy, b) try their best but will only ever be 'meh', or c) put their energy and attention into their work, family, another hobby, and only play MMOs for ***** and giggles, then I accept that it's a necessary evil to keep the PvP community sizable.

 

The 2% I disagree with:

 

Most of the complaints in this thread (at least the valid ones) are not about losing---they're about constantly getting crushed with no hope of scoring a single kill, much less a win. On smaller, premade-dominated servers, that is gradually starting to become a reality again like it used to be before ftp. Losing is fine with most puggers/ solo players, as long as the match is competitive and there's some back and forth.

 

Also, seeking fairness is not necessarily about the bads trying to undermine the goods (though some certainly do feel that way). It's about getting people of equal skill level, coordination and commitment to play against other like-minded people. Forcing the ho-hum casuals to play on the level of the hardcores will never work. Hardcores should play hardcores, casuals should play casuals.

 

Sadly, achieving that in a game where the devs don't seem to acknowledge their pvpers much and the population is already flagging is... unlikely, unless a great many things get fixed first. Especially since EA seems to have already put the cow on milking mode.

 

1. No more WZ bugs and exploits

2. Better AC balance

3. More PvP incentives and options (Open world, leveling, small-scale, more WZs, more innovation, a tangible sense of Star Wars with emphasis on the Wars)

4. More PvP devs and more transparency from those devs about what they're doing and what they think we want.

[foxmob]

ii think its a sad reflection on society as a whole. if someone is better than you, knock them down a peg so its "fair".

 

keep those tears coming. my tub is almost full.

 

couldn't help myself.

Edited July 19, 2013 by foxmob

[cashogy_reborn]

1. No more WZ bugs and exploits

2. Better AC balance

3. More PvP incentives and options (Open world, leveling, small-scale, more WZs, more innovation, a tangible sense of Star Wars with emphasis on the Wars)

4. More PvP devs and more transparency from those devs about what they're doing and what they think we want.

 

agree with all of these points 100%

 

keep those tears coming. my tub is almost full.

 

couldn't help myself.

 

its not crying; its an observation

Edited July 19, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[otherworlder]

keep those tears coming. my tub is almost full.

 

couldn't help myself.

 

Please help yourself next time.

 

Posts like this are not necessary and not constructive, regardless of the reason or which side someone is on. When intelligent, thoughtful discourse is achieved, one's intent should not be to drag it back down into mudslinging. "He started it" or "eye for an eye" are not good enough justifications for rudeness, guys.

 

If you want respect in life, take the high road whenever possible and reserve your sarcasm, anger and aggression for issues that really matter, or where they might make a difference.