Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[foxmob]

Which is why the majority of us are against using it to band-aid the issue.

 

slow yer roll there, tiger. I don't necessarily disagree with your logic, but this is another one of those mythical statements. do you mean the majority of ppl who oppose a solo Q? or do you mean the majority of ppl in the game oppose a solo Q? if I had to guess, I'd say more individual players would prefer a solo Q option. that's just guesswork too, though, based on the vast number of solos I run into and their frustration level of facing premades. don't get me wrong, solo proponents argue that they're the majority as well. I think they are, but saying it like it's fact is kinda silly. anyway, the above is a highly disputable statement if it's meant to represent the entire population.

[Asunasan]

So I could be wrong but isn't all of the blizzard stuff getting thrown around in this thread in relation to no super ques in their regular battlegrounds? I didn't look all that close but it seemed like they were still letting groups of up to 5 into their battlegrounds... kind of like BW lets groups of 4 into its warzones?

[cashogy_reborn]

So I could be wrong but isn't all of the blizzard stuff getting thrown around in this thread in relation to no super ques in their regular battlegrounds? I didn't look all that close but it seemed like they were still letting groups of up to 5 into their battlegrounds... kind of like BW lets groups of 4 into its warzones?

 

yes

 

5c

[Boch]

NVM someone already made my point. Edited July 18, 2013 by Boch

[otherworlder]

So I could be wrong but isn't all of the blizzard stuff getting thrown around in this thread in relation to no super ques in their regular battlegrounds? I didn't look all that close but it seemed like they were still letting groups of up to 5 into their battlegrounds... kind of like BW lets groups of 4 into its warzones?

 

Blizzard's first move in the process has been to attempt to eliminate super-queueing via addons, correct. However if you read their statements in entirety (please review my last post), they've stated that premades do not belong playing against pugs, listed numerous reasons why, and that if they're seeking true pvp competition then they should be in Wargames or Rated BGs.

 

All of those arguments ring just as true here.

[Boch]

Blizzard's first move in the process has been to attempt to eliminate super-queueing via addons, correct. However if you read their statements in entirety (please review my last post), they've stated that premades do not belong playing against pugs, listed numerous reasons why, and that if they're seeking true pvp competition then they should be in Wargames or Rated BGs.

 

All of those arguments ring just as true here.

 

Pretty sure Blizzards definition of premades is different from yours. And like someone posted before, not sure anyone in this threads supports double premades(which would follow under Blizzards definition of a premade).

[otherworlder]

Pretty sure Blizzards definition of premades is different from yours. And like someone posted before, not sure anyone in this threads supports double premades(which would follow under Blizzards definition of a premade).

 

Going to single out one of Daxxari's (The Blizzard dev in question) comments here for emphasis, as there is zero ambiguity:

 

Pre-mades in the normal queue, however they are formed, are not something that we've ever been particularly fond of.

[Boch]

Going to single out one of Daxxari's (The Blizzard dev in question) comments here for emphasis, as there is zero ambiguity:

 

Pre-mades in the normal queue, however they are formed, are not something that we've ever been particularly fond of.

 

What was that about cherry picking?

[otherworlder]

Mercs had a legitimate complaint.

 

PuG's that face groups then cry do not.

 

There is a legitimate complaint here (no Matchmaking!) of course, but it tends to get drowned out by unreasonable, singled-minded, one-sided, selfish QQ despite all the evidence and/or compromise offered.

 

You and the others are still beating a dead horse.

 

On all but 2 servers, matchmaking or separate queues will change NOTHING due to the shrinking available pool of players. It's not a band-aid, it's no solution at all.

 

I do not purport to have a solution, except to make moves that will increase the overall population or to drop everything else and work on X-Server queueing. That's what we should be clamoring for, in every possible venue.

[otherworlder]

What was that about cherry picking?

 

.... are you kidding? I just linked that entire article a couple of posts ago. It's all there if you want the bulk, I singled out that passage as it's the most on point to refute your argument. Did you need me to link the whole thing again?

[ThorgrimLutgen]

Organised teams have had an optional outlet and chance to prove their skills against other teams for a very long time now, it's called ranked.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I did the research. It's clear you didn't, and just cherry picked the first move made by Blizzard to begin curbing premade v. pug activity. Here's an article about the subject, in it's entirety. Please read the whole thing before you comment. The writer of the article's text is in yellow, the Blizzard dev's is in blue, and some questions he responded to from the WoW community are in green. I've bolded some passages for emphasis. It's from: http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/05/blizzard-takes-a-stand-against-pre-mades-battleground-groups/

 

My argument has never been that Blizzard has already implemented every step they plan to take on this issue. My argument has never even been that they've even BEGUN to do so. My article is that Blizzard has publicly stated, with extreme prejudice, that premades vs pugs in regular BGs is entirely wrong and needs to stop, and they're in the process of taking steps to do it (all of which is clearly laid out above).

 

They've never said "We're only against super-q'ing." They all but flat-out state in the above quote that premades should be in their version of ranked BGs rather than farming pugs in regs. Sound familiar? Do your homework folks, and stop cherry picking to support a shaky position.

 

And remember another thing----BGs in WoW accomodate a LOT more people than a match in TOR, even 10 v 10 at the minimum and mostly 15v15. One premade group in a match that large has a MUCH smaller chance of utterly tipping the balance than in TOR, where a premade of 4 = half of one team. This has been pointed out before, numerous times in this thread.

 

Saga Continues eh?

 

What is oQueue? Oqueue WoW add-on

 

Top of Blizzard Takes a stand against Premades, The quote says;

 

Break it down, what does a full oQueue Premade bring to the table that is unfair? [/Quote]

 

Dev response is:

 

I'll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

 

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage.

 

Now go back to: Blizzard takes a stand aganst Premades and you'll see a hyper text link here bolded:

 

Blizzard Community Manager Daxxarri has been very active in the past 24 hours in a topic on the patch 5.1 changes to battleground queues. He's been responding to criticism of these changes, and, at the same time, being characteristically forthright on the issue of pre-mades.

 

Clicking it will take you here:

 

Patch 5.1 no Automated queuing for groups greater than 5 people.

 

With this dev post linked as a source: Dev Post Source

 

In patch 5.1, we resolved some issues regarding how Addons interact with the Battleground queue system. It is no longer possible to automate queuing for standard or random Battlegrounds in groups larger than 5. We decided to make this change in order to improve the experience for all players who are queueing into random groups normally and expecting to face similarly random groups, only to find themselves crushed by a full team of coordinated opponents.

 

We understand that players want to enjoy coordinated team play, and we invite those players to queue into Rated Battlegrounds or play Wargames to have that experience. Players can continue to use Addons to queue for Rated Battlegrounds as well..

 

Please note the bolded part says groups larger than 5. Meaning the standard group (5 there, 4 here) is still in the queue with the PuGs.

 

Finally, back to oQueue Premades: Holinka, Senior PvP Designer Twitter

 

"I've said a few times, the only part of oQueue I don't like is circumventing premade restrictions" - Holinka, Senior PvP Designer, World of Warcraft, Blizzard.

 

 

 

Final Verdict: WoW has no problems with standard groups (groups of 5) in the queue with Solo players. They take offense to and have taken action against add-ons and player who use those systems to get groups of more than 5 (the super queue for ToR) into regular/random BGs.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[otherworlder]

Saga Continues eh?

 

What is oQueue? Oqueue WoW add-on

 

Top of Blizzard Takes a stand against Premades, The quote says;

 

 

 

Dev response is:

 

I'll try to break it down as clearly as I can:

 

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group to queue against a randomly assembled group is creating a scenario where that coordinated group has a huge advantage.

 

Now go back to: Blizzard takes a stand aganst Premades and you'll see a hyper text link here bolded:

 

Blizzard Community Manager Daxxarri has been very active in the past 24 hours in a topic on the patch 5.1 changes to battleground queues. He's been responding to criticism of these changes, and, at the same time, being characteristically forthright on the issue of pre-mades.

 

Clicking it will take you here:

 

Patch 5.1 no Automated queuing for groups greater than 5 people.

 

With this dev post linked as a source: Dev Post Source

 

In patch 5.1, we resolved some issues regarding how Addons interact with the Battleground queue system. It is no longer possible to automate queuing for standard or random Battlegrounds in groups larger than 5. We decided to make this change in order to improve the experience for all players who are queueing into random groups normally and expecting to face similarly random groups, only to find themselves crushed by a full team of coordinated opponents.

 

We understand that players want to enjoy coordinated team play, and we invite those players to queue into Rated Battlegrounds or play Wargames to have that experience. Players can continue to use Addons to queue for Rated Battlegrounds as well..

 

Please note the bolded part says groups larger than 5. Meaning the standard group (5 there, 4 here) is still in the queue with the PuGs.

 

Finally, back to oQueue Premades: Holinka, Senior PvP Designer Twitter

 

"I've said a few times, the only part of oQueue I don't like is circumventing premade restrictions" - Holinka, Senior PvP Designer, World of Warcraft, Blizzard.

 

 

 

Final Verdict: WoW has no problems with standard groups (groups of 5) in the queue with Solo players. They take offense to and have taken action against add-ons and player who use those systems to get groups of more than 5 (the super queue for ToR) into regular/random BGs.

 

You're not reading the article. I don't know what else I can tell you, friend. If statements made by an industry professional on the effects of coordinated premades vs pugs, the likelihood of said phenomenon driving players away, and that rated/high level pvp is intended to be the playground for premade groups does not seem relevant to this topic, then you have your blinders too firmly in place to see the problem.

 

So you think that only a super queue premade has coordination, and not a 4 man premade? You think the level of frustration, the back to back pugstompings, the abuse of mechanics because "it's just regs" makes the complaints somehow an entirely different issue?

 

You're splitting hairs, and you know it.

 

Super queueing is what made Blizzard decide to act because it underlined the problem. If you think a coordinated, practiced and efficient 4 man team in a WZ in this game has no similarity, then you're either being disingenuous or very, very naive.

 

Both communities have asked for changes. Both pug communities have been vocal about not wanting to play in the same pool as premades. This is not rocket science, guys.

 

They have a right to enjoy themselves. So do you. I've provided compelling quotes from the biggest MMO on the planet for why pugs hate to play against premades and have the right NOT to do so. Not one of you has yet provided an equally compelling reason why those pugs should NOT have that right.

[Doomsdaycomes]

You and the others are still beating a dead horse.

 

On all but 2 servers, matchmaking or separate queues will change NOTHING due to the shrinking available pool of players. It's not a band-aid, it's no solution at all.

 

I do not purport to have a solution, except to make moves that will increase the overall population or to drop everything else and work on X-Server queueing. That's what we should be clamoring for, in every possible venue.

 

I want server stats with a population (and population of PvPers) before you try and claim they are too low for matchmaking to be effective. Otherwise, you're blowing hot air.

[otherworlder]

I want server stats with a population (and population of PvPers) before you try and claim they are too low for matchmaking to be effective. Otherwise, you're blowing hot air.

 

Do you queue solo much on any of the 2 non-pvp servers? If you did, you would not be making this statement.

 

There's a reason people are retreating to lowbie brackets for a bigger player pool and more regular pops. There's a reason 55s on fleet are begging in General chat for people to queue up.

[Doomsdaycomes]

 

You're splitting hairs, and you know it.

 

No my friend, you are splitting hairs:

 

Look at the language used by your Dev:

 

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group

 

Full. Battleground group. You yourself stated that Battleground groups in WoW are 10, 15+ players. Why does he say full Battleground group?

 

Every piece of that article is about the oQueue add-on allowing groups of 6+ to enter the same battleground. It repeatedly states over and over and over that this change only effects groups larger than the standard 5, and is targeted to stop a full Battleground group being premade. Never once does he mention a partial group, or 5-man premades, etc...

 

The word oQueue is mentioned specifically a dozen times. Your precious Blizzard post against Premade is Specifically, unambiguously about Oqueue and it's ability to place groups larger than 5 as Premades in a random battleground.

 

There is no contest here. PuG's and their "allies" trumpeted what they thought was their golden ticket, only to find once again, they simply didn't read it.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[Diefexor]

ROFL. 500+ pages of QQ.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Do you queue solo much on any of the 2 non-pvp servers? If you did, you would not be making this statement.

 

There's a reason people are retreating to lowbie brackets for a bigger player pool and more regular pops. There's a reason 55s on fleet are begging in General chat for people to queue up.

 

this is where I laugh that you assume what server I'm on. Trust me, I'm on a couple, and your anecdotal evidence isn't enough to prove what your spouting. Evidence population is too small for matchmaking to have some effect or stop trying it.

[otherworlder]

No my friend, you are splitting hairs:

 

Look at the language used by your Dev:

 

Any addon that enables a full, organized Battleground group

 

Full. Battleground group. You yourself stated that Battleground groups in WoW are 10, 15+ players. Why does he say full Battleground group?

 

Every piece of that article is about the oQueue add-on allowing groups of 6+ to enter the same battleground. It repeatedly states over and over and over that this change only effects groups larger than the standard 5, and is targeted to stop a full Battleground group being premade. Never once does he mention a partial group, or 5-man premades, etc...

 

The word oQueue is mentioned specifically a dozen times. Your precious Blizzard post against Premade is Specifically, unambiguously about Oqueue and it's ability to place groups larger than 5 as Premades in a random battleground.

 

There is no contest here. PuG's and their "allies" trumpeted what they thought was their golden ticket, only to find once again, they simply didn't read it.

 

You could not be more wrong, because every single argument made by Daxxari is squarely on topic here.

 

Even if we concede that Blizzard may allow 5 man premades (5 being group size in WoW) to queue into their WZs until the end of time, the problem is not the same. A 5 man group on a team with 15 players does NOT tip the scales the way a 4 man group tips the scales on a team with 8 players. Can you understand that? Half of a team =/= a third of a team, or a fraction of a team.

 

You're also forgetting that most WoW BGs are anywhere from double to triple (or more) the size of the tiny arenas we get in TOR WZs. Half of a team coordinating on any of our maps is more than enough to decide an outcome, which is not the case in WoW.

 

And yes, there are BGs that are 10 v 10 where a premade in WoW could take up half of a team, but guess what? Blizzard allows you to opt out of certain BGs if you choose to, which is not an option here. If you want to limit your exposure to game-changing odds in that game, you can do so.

 

I have zero objection to facing WZ premades of 2 players.

 

Daxxari's statements are important to us not because of steps WoW has taken, but because they acknowledge the trend that casual pvpers do NOT want to face premades because it is frustrating, unfun, and drives them away-----period, the end.

 

You can split hairs about what is considered a premade all day long. It does not change the argument, or the puggers' rights to play the way they want to.

[otherworlder]

this is where I laugh that you assume what server I'm on. Trust me, I'm on a couple, and your anecdotal evidence isn't enough to prove what your spouting. Evidence population is too small for matchmaking to have some effect or stop trying it.

 

I made no assumption. I said you wouldn't be making the argument if you'd experienced what other players have been talking about. Your evidence ("trust me, I'm on a couple") is no more or less anecdotal than anyone else's.

 

If you want hard data about population stats, check... I think it was called TORStatus? But I can't say when it was last updated as I don't use it.

 

You're right, my evidence is anecdotal. So are the experiences of everyone else telling you that when they WZ at 55 on most servers (especially off peak) they're playing with and against the same people over and over. That is not a pool large enough for matchmaking to change a thing.

[TridusSWTOR]

Pretty sure Blizzards definition of premades is different from yours. And like someone posted before, not sure anyone in this threads supports double premades(which would follow under Blizzards definition of a premade).

 

Oh now the word premade has multiple meanings.

 

What's next the sky isn't really blue? Oh lord, nice goal-post moving.

[TridusSWTOR]

Looks like doom lost his own argument. Even when he did all the biased research.

 

That's hilarious how epic fail that turned out.

 

GG.

 

First time ever someone debunked themselves. Glad cash/doom/jade are still for lopsided matches though.

 

Roflstomp or bust, right guys?

[TridusSWTOR]

this is where I laugh that you assume what server I'm on. Trust me, I'm on a couple, and your anecdotal evidence isn't enough to prove what your spouting. Evidence population is too small for matchmaking to have some effect or stop trying it.

 

Evidence that there is a large enough skill pool on all servers, or stop trying.

 

Difference is, he won't provide anything useful. As usual.

[otherworlder]

What I can't understand is why some people feel so vehemently compelled to fight against a large portion of the playerbase getting to play the way they want.

 

If you don't get your enjoyment from pugstomping, then why in the world would this concern you?

 

If your argument is that populations are perfectly healthy across the board, then shouldn't your queue times be just fine if the feature was implemented?

 

Where is the downside for you? Or do you not really believe your own argument that pops are fine?

[TridusSWTOR]

No. You are failing to see what is being defined as a Premade there.

 

Try it all you like, but the Blizzard post is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with PuG's not liking groups and everything to do with the super queue and add-ons causing problems.

 

You've truly degraded into flailing your arms and screaming it seems. Daxxari's comments are clearly, articulately stated about Full Premade Battlegroups vs PuGs. Read: Full 10, 15, etc... premade versus randoms. Nothing about partial "premades" or that half of 10 is 5 and PuGs hate fighting a 5-man premade.

 

Add-on allowed Full premades to queue, Blizzard "no." End of story, end of relevance.

 

And we see the doom tantrum break down begin.

 

*eats popcorn*