Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[foxmob]

lol you have to really try to be undergeared in regs these days.

[Kovaos]

Bioware just go ahead and give them what they want.[/Quote]

 

Yay!!

[Doomsdaycomes]

don't get me started on back fill. it's absolutely retarded. just let the WZs end. for every one back filled team that pulls out a victory, I"ll show you 19 that lost and 10 that saw the back filler quit, suck another back filler in who also quit, so on and so forth. one of the members of your team who q'd in a grp of 2-4 quit? hey. them's the breaks. you're a grp. you have infinitely more control over who's on your team than a solo player. choose better (i.e., reliable) grp mates.

 

edit: tbh, what I really like about solo-only is 1) it's the only way to eliminate d-bag superQs and 2) I think it'd be a lot easier to code than a more intuitive matchmaking system because I have zero faith in the dev's ability to implement said thing (without a year's worth of headaches -- see the debacle with bolster).

 

Meh, you don't like backfill, I do. I've seen plenty of matches where one lost player barely effects it once backfilled, I'm sure you've seen plenty that are opposite. Still doesn't say anything about filling, nor does it dispute my claim that it -does- hurt someone.

 

Solo players are like one-dollar-bills (or pennies). Only an idiot would say society could do fine without one-denomination-pieces, since it's needed to make any other number, used in % interest, etc... (Can you imagine computing a car loan if our lowest denomination was a 5?)... But that doesn't make the one-dollar-bill more valuable or sought after than any other bill.

 

Meh, I'm tired. Point being a solo-only queue/toggle option is going to hurt someone, and chances are it's not the players taking the option (or at least, the fall out isn't not restricted to them).

[cashogy_reborn]

Pot5 tonight...

 

Two imp premades trolling the queues together.

 

Logging off for the night. This isn't worth it. Not going to put up with this headache when I can get other things done.

 

if that happens, leave the queue immediately and requeue. you will no longer be synced with them

 

there are enough WZs popping on pot5 at almost all hours that you can avoid people you dont want to play with

[Comfterbilly]

if that happens, leave the queue immediately and requeue. you will no longer be synced with them

 

there are enough WZs popping on pot5 at almost all hours that you can avoid people you dont want to play with

 

Problem not solved. Even just the loading time into the warzone is more of my time than they deserve. Much less wasting a whole queue pop on queue-busting scum.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[Vaerah]

if that happens, leave the queue immediately and requeue. you will no longer be synced with them

 

there are enough WZs popping on pot5 at almost all hours that you can avoid people you dont want to play with

 

On ToFN from 10pm onwards all you get is *1* WZ popping. Most often it's 1 or 2 imps premade (2 days ago it was 2 imps premade for 3 hours) vs guildless and totally AWFUL reps. That makes playing on ToFN just pointless, you get farmed from the instant you log in to the time you log off.

 

Till before server transfer imps were so few that this one WZ pop was made by reps vs reps. Then it was better, as there usually was a rep "light premade" of 2-3 guys and one could win by randomly being put in their team and the wins / losses were not "pure roflstomp heavy farm".

Now imps arrived and they farm reps like pigs for hours a day.

 

Result? Since 2 days ago even that 1 WZ pop stopped popping. GRATS! That's a big achievement for those who exclusively PvP like me.

So yesterday I logged on, have done all the Makeb dailies, put stuff on GTN and done other Republic Fleet things (getting mats for 1 augmentation etc.) and... no pop at all during all that time.

So why am I even logging in? Seriously BW expects a pure PvPer to pay a sub to do Makeb dailies and that's it?

Edited July 10, 2013 by Vaerah

[MotorCityMan]

I don't know what Bioware is going to do. I just know that I am not going to pay any game company that haphazardly throws teams and pugs into an instance and calls it "pvp". Anymore than I am going to patronize a restaurant that randomly picks things out of the fridge and throws them into a pot and calls it dinner. Ever since Blizzard fooled people into thinking that was pvp, everyone else has determined that it must be ok since wow did it. But if current developers can't put more thought into it than that, then I am content to sit it out until some can.

 

Outside of pvp, there is a lot to like about this game. Had more fun leveling characters in this game than just about any other. The pve content is fine too, what I have seen of it. So I am not suggesting that Bioware developers are minions of the devil bent on consigning us to eternal purgatory. I just wish they would allot more creative resources toword pvp.

Edited July 10, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[PloGreen]

There is no PuG designed WZ, or PuG Queue.

 

There isn't even a Solo Queue button.

 

It's a Queue Solo button.

 

Read: Queue (Verb: To take place in a queue or line) as Solo (Unaccompanied, Self).

 

The sooner people stop reading it as:

 

Queue for Solo

-or-

Solo Queue

 

The sooner this conversation might get somewhere, as this "expectation" of solo-queue'd only opponents or "belief" that Groups are invading a solo-queue'd intended queue, the sooner a solution that fits all the rightful inhabitants of the regular queue can be discussed. (Hint: Any single player or group of players numbering two through four is a rightful inhabitant of the regular warzone queue.)

 

Very well put, unfortunately I noticed someone still is trying to tell you it's not the case (lol).

[TridusSWTOR]

Remember? One good troll deserves another.... Yeah I do want to know which premade hurt your feelings, and know whether they left your server. Doesn't that solve your problem?

 

I already picked apart your last troll, but since you are so big on "point" how about you enlighten us why ranked teams, who love pugstomping so much, left their servers.

 

This should be good....

 

/putsonjesterhat:rak_03:

 

So picked apart what exactly? By asking what server I'm on?

 

Oh lord, if that is your idea of a counter-argument I'll spare you the utter destruction of me debunking you. You should thank me, I did you a favor. I don't want to embarrass you too much.

 

So, I am kinda curious though. How do you not know which servers got a influx of new PVP players? You seem to troll the boards quite a lot, so I figured you would know all this stuff.

[TridusSWTOR]

Wow this has become a very long thread. What's the general consensus of the people participating in this thread? Separate premades with non premades in normal warzones?

 

Basically it comes down to pro-premade-lopsided matches posters who want a matchmaking system because it still offers a chance to well...have lopsided matches.

 

Then they say separating the queue's will make sure nobody gets a PVP match ever.

 

But then they say that PVP queue times are very short on there server, suggesting that there are plenty of bodies able to make a separate queue work.

 

So, to sum it all up- Pro-premades are still trying to figure out what they are still trying to say. It might take a while for them to arrive at a point.

[Jadescythe]

Basically it comes down to pro-premade-lopsided matches posters who want a matchmaking system because it still offers a chance to well...have lopsided matches.

 

Then they say separating the queue's will make sure nobody gets a PVP match ever.

 

But then they say that PVP queue times are very short on there server, suggesting that there are plenty of bodies able to make a separate queue work.

 

So, to sum it all up- Pro-premades are still trying to figure out what they are still trying to say. It might take a while for them to arrive at a point.

 

Tell me how a solo queue eliminates the chance at lopsided matches and I'll actually read what you post past the first line again.

 

 

To avoid posting again, if you are complaining about 1 warzone popping or no warzones popping in this thread, you really have nothing to contribute. I apologize for the state of PvP on your server, but no solution will stop you from facing the only 8 people queuing on the other side since the groups would just disband to solo queuers and you'd see them anyway in a solo queue.

[maverickmatt]

Tell me how a solo queue eliminates the chance at lopsided matches and I'll actually read what you post past the first line again.

 

 

To avoid posting again, if you are complaining about 1 warzone popping or no warzones popping in this thread, you really have nothing to contribute. I apologize for the state of PvP on your server, but no solution will stop you from facing the only 8 people queuing on the other side since the groups would just disband to solo queuers and you'd see them anyway in a solo queue.

 

What he said was that the same people who say that a solo-only toggle will cause queue times to go up also say that there is no problem with queue times on their server. In fact, they go on to say that queues are popping faster than ever.

 

What this suggests is that either A) There are FAR more premades than anyone with the above views will admit, or B) They don't want solo players to have a sanctuary of sorts from the farming premades.

 

While I don't share his particular sentiment, I do have to agree with him on that point.

 

I have no idea what server YOU play on, but I play on Prophecy. Lately, it's been nothing but premades on the Imperial side. Understand that when I say premade, I don't mean casual buddies. I mean teams that won't queue Ranked. I've seen 6 superqueus (F you, spellchecker) since 4pm eastern yesterday, and that is douchery at it's finest.

 

One of the problems that is not addressed in this thread is the snowball effect. I'll break it down for you.

 

• Timmy is playing his Guardian. He just wants to have fun.
  
• Timmy goes into a Warzone, and wouldn't you know it? He get's rolled by a competitive premade (Don't kid yourselves, they are the rule, not the exception. Especially with Double XP weekends giving them all new 55s that need gear. They don't play them, they just pugfarm with their supergeared toons and transfer mods)
  
• Then, Timmy gets rolled again. and again.
  
• Now Timmy says "to hell with this, I'm going to play Imp side".
  
• Timmy is now playing Imp side, and winning while riding the coattails of premades. Timmy tells his friends, who all come over to the imp side.
  

 

 

Either that happens, or the Pubs just stop playing. Did you hear me? I said they STOP PLAYING.

 

It's a very unwise business decision to implement a matchmaking system before a solo-only option. The MM system is superior, but the collection of data will take far too long. Gamers don't have that much patience. I see people every day walk out in droves, temporarily or permanently, because they love to PvP but it's no fun.

 

 

Many posters here have made the mistake of forgetting this is a game, and should be fun for as many people as possible.

 

The "fun-factor" of PvP is diminishing at a more rapid rate every time a premade decides that Ranked isn't where they want to play today.

Edited July 10, 2013 by maverickmatt

[L-RANDLE]

So picked apart what exactly? By asking what server I'm on?

 

Oh lord, if that is your idea of a counter-argument I'll spare you the utter destruction of me debunking you. You should thank me, I did you a favor. I don't want to embarrass you too much.

 

So, I am kinda curious though. How do you not know which servers got a influx of new PVP players? You seem to troll the boards quite a lot, so I figured you would know all this stuff.

 

I wasn't referring to that. Your troll about objective points but I assumed you didn't respond to my retort because the short bus you obvious ride, finally ran off a cliff... Oh well you can only hope right...

 

Again you just hit the s key, instead of just answering the question. So which PvE server were/are you on and explain why premades left the PuG farms they love sooo much?

[foxmob]

Tell me how a solo queue eliminates the chance at lopsided matches and I'll actually read what you post past the first line again..

 

it completely randomizes the team composition.

 

random does not mean balanced matches. on the other hand, it does prevent a grp of 4 (legit) or 8 (douches) from controlling the composition of their team. thus, everyone has an equal opportunity to land on a competent (or incompetent) team. it also drastically reduces the likelihood of running into a team in which the best 4 players in the WZ are all on the same team.

 

so...more equitable: yes. balanced: not directly but more so than current queues

Edited July 10, 2013 by foxmob

[Jadescythe]

What he said was that the same people who say that a solo-only toggle will cause queue times to go up also say that there is no problem with queue times on their server. In fact, they go on to say that queues are popping faster than ever.

 

*snipped for brevity*

 

Firstly, I only either troll or completely ignore anything Tridus says, because he does the same to everyone else while he runs around "debunking" the world without actually saying anything.

 

As to actual content, well the bigger picture is where queue times come into play. If you didn't check my sig, I play on POT5 as well and queue times are great. No more than 5 minutes even late into the night. Other servers certainly can't say the same and with transfers coming in, we definitely don't have population problems.

 

Now cut that in half. I'd say more than half of the population premades, but you have to agree that those who premade also solo queue at times so 50/50 seems reasonable to me. This still would be fine I think, especially with a toggle so it could alleviate some of the problems with the group queue. Other servers would not fair so well with lower populations, but honestly, as I said, nothing is really going to solve their problems until the population changes.

 

The problems come in here though. We now have a solo only queue option, but we haven't solved the problem of unequal teams. We still have far better players in the solo queue and they are putting out 2-4 times the damage of other people. Basically swinging the game for their team single handed. Now we need matchmaking, which makes sense. Let's put the good players together and the bad players together.

 

But we've cut the population in half, so now matchmaking takes forever and has a hard time finding equally skilled players because they are in two different queues. Not to mention matchmaking in the group queue will be phenomenally bad with different group sizes and don't forget we have 2 factions that can't mix. The population problem is when implementing both the solutions that have been put forth since a solo queue alone isn't going to ensure better games, just reduce the frequency by eliminating the ability to choose a few good players to be on your side.

 

Here are my quick points on the subject overall:

 

1) We can't support both solutions, even on the high pop servers

2) Groups of 4 or less in queue with solos are not a problem when equally skilled

3) Matchmaking has a better probability to get an even match than solo queue

 

Where people disagree is point 2, that groups will always be better than their solo queue counterparts. I disagree, but it wouldn't be hard to put in a group rating buff, where your rating is increased based on the number of people grouped together. So if you have 4 people grouped that average 500 rating, they would actually be given 750 or 1000 rating for matching purposes.

 

I have reasons to be completely anti-solo queue, but nothing that would make me care enough to stop it if I thought it wouldn't affect gameplay for everyone. If we had cross server, I'd say go for it. Split the queues and do matchmaking and have brackets every 10 levels. But we can't support that, we can only support one split and matchmaking makes the most sense and does the best job of matching teams.

[foxmob]

The problems come in here though. We now have a solo only queue option, but we haven't solved the problem of unequal teams. We still have far better players in the solo queue and they are putting out 2-4 times the damage of other people. Basically swinging the game for their team single handed. Now we need matchmaking, which makes sense. Let's put the good players together and the bad players together.

 

But we've cut the population in half, so now matchmaking takes forever and has a hard time finding equally skilled players because they are in two different queues. Not to mention matchmaking in the group queue will be phenomenally bad with different group sizes and don't forget we have 2 factions that can't mix. The population problem is when implementing both the solutions that have been put forth since a solo queue alone isn't going to ensure better games, just reduce the frequency by eliminating the ability to choose a few good players to be on your side.

.

while I would like to see solo only options, I do think it has to be on a server basis. from what I understand, RP and Oceanic servers don't have the population of pvpers to support 2 queues. I am absolutely positive that JC (east coast pve) and Po5 (east cost pvp) DO have the populations to support it, and I feel comfortable in surmising the same for their west coast counterparts. getting pops is a non-issue.

 

doomsday's back fill concern is relatively minor, and I have other problems with back fill anyway, but at least it's a real issue. the server population thing is a non-issue on the major north american servers.

[DimeStax]

it completely randomizes the team composition.

 

random does not mean balanced. on the other hand, it does prevent a grp of 4 (legit) or 8 (douches) from controlling the composition of their team. thus, everyone has an equal opportunity to land on a competent (or incompetent) team. it also drastically reduces the likelihood of running into a team in which the best 4 players in the WZ are all on the same team.

 

so...more equitable: yes. balanced: not directly but more so than current queues

 

I think we all established that WZs are played far and wide by a mix of casual players and experienced players because it is the standard team-based pvp environment we can all que up and play instantly as soon as we log on without needing to form a team. That being said, regular WZs are not any sort of or ladder or ranked system that requires it to be equal, fair, and balanced at every level. Instead, regular WZs are already exactly what they are intended to be: An easily accessible way for players to single que or group que with their friends to play team based PvP. The moment regular WZs become anything but that then people will stop quing and we will have no WZs. If you enjoy more structured, balanced, and "equal" WZs then I suggest you form your own 8 man premades and que for Ranked.

 

TLDR: Regular WZs aren't meant to be heavily scrutinized, over-thought, micro-managed and heavily regulated. Their purpose is to quickly be able to solo que or group que with your friends and PvP almost immediately. No group que feature would destroy the PvP WZ community in this MMO.

Edited July 10, 2013 by DimeStax

[sanchito]

...

Many posters here have made the mistake of forgetting this is a game, and should be fun for as many people as possible.

 

This i 100% agree with. If not enough people are having fun the pvp population will decline until pvp ends up in a very unhealthy state, especially considering cross server queues seem to be out of the question. We have to make it fun and easy for all players, not only for the hardcores.

 

The "fun-factor" of PvP is diminishing at a more rapid rate every time a premade decides that Ranked isn't where they want to play today.

 

This however is my core disagreement with a big part of the solo queue only proponents. Some of the greatest games i had were pug vs premades, right now you just need to be incredibly lucky to get a pug team that is a) somewhat balanced and b) somewhat experienced.

 

case in point this is from yesterday, i pugged. We did have a 2 man group, the other side had at least one 4 man, not sure if the other 4 were pugs or groups. We lost, i got focused a lot, died more than i should have but i was still an awesome game.

 

http://i.imgur.com/H7x9onK.jpg

 

i'm afraid that if we do get a strictly solo only queue, we'll miss out on some amazing games. Pug vs premade games can be awesome if the skill level is not too far apart, and this is why i'm advocating for matchmaking instead of split queues in this thread

 

i do agree that a solo only toggle would be an improvement over the current situation, just not a very big one.

[Jadescythe]

while I would like to see solo only options, I do think it has to be on a server basis. from what I understand, RP and Oceanic servers don't have the population of pvpers to support 2 queues. I am absolutely positive that JC (east coast pve) and Po5 (east cost pvp) DO have the populations to support it, and I feel comfortable in surmising the same for their west coast counterparts. getting pops is a non-issue.

 

doomsday's back fill concern is relatively minor, and I have other problems with back fill anyway, but at least it's a real issue. the server population thing is a non-issue on the major north american servers.

 

You're correct, I've seen people on servers saying that they either don't get a pop for hours or play the same teams over and over for hours. No changes will fix that unless more people queue or they have more people to queue against. But if we split up the high pop servers more than once, it won't be able to handle it. If BW chose to do either solo queue or matchmaking for regs, they can't do both.

 

That's my point on population. And solo queue alone (as you noted in another post) helps reduce the amount of uneven teams by eliminating the ability to choose some of your teammates, but will not stop uneven games from happening. There has to be a matchmaking element and enough players in the pool to actually have those matches mean something. Unfortunately, based on Cantina talk, we'll be getting both in the form of ranked solo queue. So we'll find out I suppose.

 

I think backfill throws a wrench in any solution. Even if the queues weren't split, what are the chances of an exact match being in queue alone to throw into a match between high rated players? Probably pretty low, which means the backfill will take time to happen and won't matter.

[Jadescythe]

This i 100% agree with. If not enough people are having fun the pvp population will decline until pvp ends up in a very unhealthy state, especially considering cross server queues seem to be out of the question. We have to make it fun and easy for all players, not only for the hardcores.

 

 

 

This however is my core disagreement with a big part of the solo queue only proponents. Some of the greatest games i had were pug vs premades, right now you just need to be incredibly lucky to get a pug team that is a) somewhat balanced and b) somewhat experienced.

 

case in point this is from yesterday, i pugged. We did have a 2 man group, the other side had at least one 4 man, not sure if the other 4 were pugs or groups. We lost, i got focused a lot, died more than i should have but i was still an awesome game.

 

http://i.imgur.com/H7x9onK.jpg

 

i'm afraid that if we do get a strictly solo only queue, we'll miss out on some amazing games. Pug vs premade games can be awesome if the skill level is not too far apart, and this is why i'm advocating for matchmaking instead of split queues in this thread

 

i do agree that a solo only toggle would be an improvement over the current situation, just not a very big one.

 

Just a heads up, the 3 top DPS on your team are all in Hostile Takeover, one of the top, if not the best, ranked teams on the server until they mostly quit and came back. They were all on alts, but still.

[sanchito]

Just a heads up, the 3 top DPS on your team are all in Hostile Takeover, one of the top, if not the best, ranked teams on the server until they mostly quit and came back. They were all on alts, but still.

 

my mistake then i only saw 2 tags but doesn't change my point that i want to be able to get into these games while pugging :-)

[foxmob]

I think backfill throws a wrench in any solution. Even if the queues weren't split, what are the chances of an exact match being in queue alone to throw into a match between high rated players? Probably pretty low, which means the backfill will take time to happen and won't matter.

 

indeed. but here's the thing: if you're joining a grp Q, then you're choosing who you grp with. well, you have a MAJOR say (up to 4/8 teammates). so if someone drops from your grp Q, I put that on the grp. choose your grp mates more wisely or suffer the consequences. the same goes for the current bug about afk grp members not taking a pop. I have no problem with my team suffering if one of the grp mates I chose screws up. that's on me. maybe he's my friend and I'm loyal to him and will continue to grp with him. but that's on me. my choice. my consequences.

 

now I realize your team might lose somebody from someone else's premade. how is that your fault, right? it's not. but you're in a grp Q system. every grp is operating on the same dynamic. the chances of a premade being reliable are considerably higher than 8 individual Qers.

 

anyway...all of my comments in this thread make it seem like I'm deeply invested in it. I solo all the time and would like to play others in the same situation, but it's not a big deal. back fill loops and quitting are far more of an issue, imo. as well as choosing to take in-progress WZ pops.

[Burgdawg]

How about you whiners stop sucking at pvp instead of complaining until they dumb the game down to your level. And don't give me that seperate solo and group que crap, the servers don't have the population to support that.

[Vaerah]

How about you whiners stop sucking at pvp instead of complaining until they dumb the game down to your level. And don't give me that seperate solo and group que crap, the servers don't have the population to support that.

 

Mr. Skillpro, fix me the situation where I can top the scoreboard and still I can't get the weekly done because everyone else get roflstomped due to being all guildless newbies except maybe 1-2. Day after day.

 

"Get guildies / friends". Oh dear I had 35+ guildies online and a dozen friends all good to play with... till May. Then everyone of them quit and now I am alone online and have 1 friend still playing left.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Vaerah

[DimeStax]

Mr. Skillpro, fix me the situation where I can top the scoreboard and still I can't get the weekly done because everyone else get roflstomped due to being all guildless newbies except maybe 1-2. Day after day.

 

"Get guildies / friends". Oh dear I had 35+ guildies online and a dozen friends all good to play with... till May. Then everyone of them quit and now I am alone online and have 1 friend still playing left.

 

L2Friend. Join another guild.