Boch Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Which is why a tiered advancment system that is tied to a new legacy valor stat is needed. It's the first step towards matchmaking. You should not be allowed to Que for your toons level unless you have the Legacy Valor to do so. If you hit 55 with none you should be moved into a 40-54 bracket, and do the same type of thing for the other brackets. At least this would give a viable checkpoint, as the delta in experience would be significantly more muted that it is now... If they complain that the can't jump right to 55, then point back at the people who think this is actually a "real" problem in the game's design... Not you specifically, but the longer and longer this goes on, the more I feel the train wrecks are on PvE servers, which would explain the butthurt here quite nicely. Are you talking about a valor ranking, different from the current valor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TridusSWTOR Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Troll number 2 is back..... Good times.... What server are you on again? Oh look bad suggestion troll responds. Want to know my server? Cool story bro. What's next the 1vs1bro? Come back when you can actually form a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TridusSWTOR Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Your logic is so sound its astonishing. I took a number from you on that one. I figured you would like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Wow this has become a very long thread. What's the general consensus of the people participating in this thread? Separate premades with non premades in normal warzones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanchito Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Which is why a tiered advancment system that is tied to a new legacy valor stat is needed. It's the first step towards matchmaking. You should not be allowed to Que for your toons level unless you have the Legacy Valor to do so. If you hit 55 with none you should be moved into a 40-54 bracket, and do the same type of thing for the other brackets. At least this would give a viable checkpoint, as the delta in experience would be significantly more muted that it is now... If they complain that the can't jump right to 55, then point back at the people who think this is actually a "real" problem in the game's design... Not you specifically, but the longer and longer this goes on, the more I feel the train wrecks are on PvE servers, which would explain the butthurt here quite nicely. Yeah i really like this idea. Only thing is i think if someone wants to continue playing there they should be allowed to no matter their valor. I don't think the problem is only on pve servers though; i played on tofn and now on pot5. On both servers i get on average around 3 awesome, close games per 10, and 7 one sided ones. If i'm in a premade i'm on the winning side of the roflstomps more often, which is less bad obviously, but i'd still rather have more of the good games and less of the stupidly one sided ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boch Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Wow this has become a very long thread. What's the general consensus of the people participating in this thread? Separate premades with non premades in normal warzones? Basically there are two opinions, those who are wrong and want solo ques and premade ques separate, and those who are right and want a matchmaking system. Throw in some trolling and you have this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomsdaycomes Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Wow this has become a very long thread. What's the general consensus of the people participating in this thread? Separate premades with non premades in normal warzones? There is a general consensus there is an unhealthy situation. There break/reason for this threads continued existence is a lack of consensus on what the problem is and thus, the solution. Some claim that the problem is Premades (specifically highly skilled, geared, and competitive four-man groups) being allowed to face PuG's (or even PuG's+A casual 2-3 man) in the regular queue. They believe that Premades have an advantage highly improbable (if not impossible) to be present in a PuG group, namely insuring that there are 4 well geared players, proper class composition, coordination, and voice-chat capabilities and that it is even possible they can bring these advantages to bear on a PuG is a grievous oversight in design. These 1-sided matches lead to stomping an a not fun experience. Their remedy is a solo-only queue, which in theory (according to proponents of the solo-only queue/toggle) will allow solo-only players to partake in Warzones with people of similar minds. Due to the randomness of the 8 people per team, in theory it would create more equal matches (since no team is guaranteed the premade-esque advantages). Cons of the solo-only queue/toggle option are as follows; It has no mechanism to prevent 1-sided matches as 6-8 well-geared/skilled/competitive PuGs can/will stomping a team of undergeared/low-skill/casual PuGs. Split queue's divide population, leading to longer queue times if under a certain critical mass. No Solo-players/A shortage of Solo-players causes logistical problems in the regular/group queue. Casual groups are casualties of this option, suffering longer queues/queue logistic problems to keep PuG's "safe" from Premades. Finally, on low pop servers split queue/toggle option has the highest amount of players unable to play at all (14-15 pugs+ 14-15 group players, or 28-30 in total. The other side attributes the unhealthy situation to a mismatch of skill/competitive level, leading to unhealthy matches. Their answer is Matchmaking based on a skill or win/loss ratio. They argue that most/all advantages present in any team dynamic will be reflected in skill or win/loss rating, and that matchmaking based on that rating will cause more even matches. Those of high competitive/gear/skill level will be prompted to face those of similar rating, regardless of queue type, while those of poor skill/gear/competitive level will end up with like. Matchmaking is coupled with a queue time limiter, thus keeping queue's shorter but slowly losing equal rating integrity. Cons of Skil-based Matchmaking are as follows: Matchmaking requires time to rate players, it will take several weeks to sift the population into their (soft) brackets. Low Pop-servers/Off hours will continue to see less even matches if under a critical mass. Doesn't remove groups from PuG's, which still gives Bad PuG's something besides themselves to blame for losing horribly. That's pretty much the rundown. Ps. If you can't tell, the part in yellow is a joke. Edited July 9, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Are you talking about a valor ranking, different from the current valor? No.Totally separate, but players that have valor now could be grandfathered in based on the highest level of a particular toon in your legacy. We can set the bar at 40 since it is already there. If you are at 40, then you get to bypass lowbie [edit] across all other toons. New players would have to meet valor level 40 before legacy valor is unlock on all future toons. Oh look bad suggestion troll responds. Want to know my server? Cool story bro. What's next the 1vs1bro? Come back when you can actually form a point. Remember? One good troll deserves another.... Yeah I do want to know which premade hurt your feelings, and know whether they left your server. Doesn't that solve your problem? I already picked apart your last troll, but since you are so big on "point" how about you enlighten us why ranked teams, who love pugstomping so much, left their servers. This should be good.... /putsonjesterhat:rak_03: Yeah i really like this idea. Only thing is i think if someone wants to continue playing there they should be allowed to no matter their valor. I don't think the problem is only on pve servers though; i played on tofn and now on pot5. On both servers i get on average around 3 awesome, close games per 10, and 7 one sided ones. If i'm in a premade i'm on the winning side of the roflstomps more often, which is less bad obviously, but i'd still rather have more of the good games and less of the stupidly one sided ones. And the one sided ones would naturally decrease if you moved the group of inexperienced players based on a legacy valor rating. When Cash posted his SS, it was pretty obvious some were not even geared with lvl 50 augments. They were not ready for 55 PvP, and probably had less than 40 valor... As for the PvE server thing... The reason I say it is probably because this could be a casual pvp player problem more than it is a casual player problem. On PvE servers, the main purpose is PvE content. There is a lot to do, and PvP is typically a side show for the majority. Once you introduce "serious" PvP teams on these servers, you have an imbalance, which is probably the reason this thread was started in the first place. I would venture to guess most of the avid complainers inhabit PvE servers, but as I eluded to in the post above, more "serious" PvP players left those servers, and why should be pretty obvious... Edited July 9, 2013 by L-RANDLE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaerah Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I'd like to be nice on here all the time, but honestly, if you lose 6-0 in 2 minutes, the problem isn't the premade, you and/or your team are just bad. It's easy to get on a roll when you score a goal because, for the most part, every player on the team is in the pit/endzone for no reason trying to kill the full resolve PT/VG who can't be rooted or slowed and has full health with a healer on him. Cut your losses and take mid back instead of leaving the 1 player smart enough to do it alone there dying to 3 opponents before the ball even resets. A team being bad is not a problem, it's a feature of PUGging since ever and in every MMO. And it's fine, really, as long as a mediocre team faces another mediocre team. Regular WZs are meant for them, regular WZs are where 80% of the playerbase that sponsors the game plays. PUGs are not a problem in a PUGger designed WZ, non PUGs are. I can spam you with an hundred of screenshots showing me coming first for my team... and still it won't matter, because vs another PUG I do more than a fair share of "lifting" my team but against a (dual) premade (had one against yesterday, for 2 hours) I get instagibbed, my resolve bar does not even begin to fill before I am dead despite I use my stun breaker (and 1/10 sec later I am slammed to the floor and whatever total disables exist). I don't have a guard, I don't have an healer, they focus DPS on whoever they want and farm them. As for "continuing to cry", it's not going to happen for the simple reason that... on my server nobody queues up for WZ any more. It's now 2 hours I am in queue, not a single pop. End of problems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boch Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I'm not a fan of mixing 55's with lowbies. I think a simple matchmaking takes care of this problem. If the toon is new to 55 pvp you start at the bottom. Even skilled players with new toons shouldn't be bumped up, each toon should have it own ranking. If done right it will all work its self out. I have no faith in Swtor programming, so the less to put in a matchmaking system the better. They'd screw it up, like not ranking top ranked teams and when those players qued for regs theyd get put in the lowbie bracket. Actually that would be pretty funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 Basically there are two opinions, those who are wrong and want solo ques and premade ques separate, and those who are right and want a matchmaking system. Throw in some trolling and you have this thread. Summed up quite nicely actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomsdaycomes Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) PUGs are not a problem in a PUGger designed WZ, non PUGs are. There is no PuG designed WZ, or PuG Queue. There isn't even a Solo Queue button. It's a Queue Solo button. Read: Queue (Verb: To take place in a queue or line) as Solo (Unaccompanied, Self). The sooner people stop reading it as: Queue for Solo -or- Solo Queue The sooner this conversation might get somewhere, as this "expectation" of solo-queue'd only opponents or "belief" that Groups are invading a solo-queue'd intended queue, the sooner a solution that fits all the rightful inhabitants of the regular queue can be discussed. (Hint: Any single player or group of players numbering two through four is a rightful inhabitant of the regular warzone queue.) Edited July 9, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaerah Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) There is no PuG designed WZ, or PuG Queue. There isn't even a Solo Queue button. It's a Queue Solo button. Read: Queue (Verb: To take place in a queue or line) as Solo (Unaccompanied, Self). The sooner people stop reading it as: Queue for Solo -or- Solo Queue The sooner this conversation might get somewhere, as this "expectation" of solo-queue'd only opponents or "belief" that Groups are invading a solo-queue'd intended queue, the sooner a solution that fits all the rightful inhabitants of the regular queue can be discussed. (Hint: Any single player or group of players numbering two through four is a rightful inhabitant of the regular warzone queue.) Another semantics master. Edit: no, it's you again, figures. Strip the fat to the bone and what you get? That these "rightful inhabitants" with full augmented Conqueror, FOTM classes and voice comms are badly matched vs people with 25k health and 10 days /played. Sure if the "Queue" button actually put people in a balanced queue, nobody would need you to come explain the irrelevant details on the labels. Edited July 10, 2013 by Vaerah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-RANDLE Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 I'm not a fan of mixing 55's with lowbies. Nor am I but, if there are new 55s that didn't pvp, they need a place to go. It makes more sense for them to rework the brackets and move them to the last bracket before the endgame bracket, rather than have a separate no valor 55 only que. Requiring rerolls to reach an individual valor level on each succeeding toon is not needed, as they should know the basics of WZs, and have a good grasp on their own class at the point when they hit 55. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) Wow this has become a very long thread. What's the general consensus of the people participating in this thread? Separate premades with non premades in normal warzones? lol loaded question. imo, there's a lot of myths being spread by both camps, but for my money, I se absolutely nothing wrong with a solo only queue option. it would make comps truly random. it would be voluntary. iunno. someone will prolly slam me and talk **** about how bad or stupid I am, but there you go. it hurts no one. what's the big deal? I'm pretty sure that it's a lot easier to code than an intuitive matchmaking system, and we all know how much command BW has demonstrated to have over their own code. Edited July 10, 2013 by foxmob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomsdaycomes Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Sure if the "Queue" button actually put people in a balanced queue, nobody would need you to come explain the irrelevant details on the labels. We are in agreement, if the queue put people in a balanced match, there would be less complaints (Face it, PvP someone will always complain). This is why I advocate over and over and over and over for matchmaking based on some kind of skill criteria and/or win/loss rating. More balanced matches, more flexible logistics, and in off-hours at least everyone get to play something, even if the occasional heavily-lopsided match occurs. But.... call it semantics all you like, it still remains the truth that there is no solo-queue and there should be no expectation of solo queue. Anyone who wants to point to the "Queue Solo" button and say it should give an expectation of a Solo-only queue because it has the word Solo in it is playing semantics. They will get a lesson in English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomsdaycomes Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 lol loaded question. imo, there's a lot of myths being spread by both camps, but for my money, I se absolutely nothing wrong with a solo only queue option. it would make comps truly random. it would be voluntary. iunno. someone will prolly slam me and talk **** about how bad or stupid I am, but there you go. it hurts no one. what's the big deal? I'm pretty sure that it's a lot easier to code than an intuitive matchmaking system, and we all know how much command BW has demonstrated to have over their own code. Not gonna call you anything of the sort. Think I've actually done a really good job of not calling solo-only players specifically low-skilled, etc... in a loooooong time. But to the bold line: It does hurt someone. If there are more solo-only queuing, then the mixed/group queue is going to suffer filling and back filling issues. The "penalty" for taking the solo-only option does not rest 100% on the player who uses it shoulders, and without some sort of immediate and recognizable penalty, there is nothing to encourage much needed solo-queued into the regular queue. As someone else pointed out, most players (not all) will take the path of least resistance. A solo-only queue has (at least the appearance of) less resistance for PuG's, at the expense of casual and competitive groups. Alternatively I've suggested a PuG-only queue with a comm reward of PuG-Only Win+8 medals Comms < Regular Loss+8 medals Loss. (or Pug Only Win+8 medals earning less than 80 comms, maybe 50 or 60.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
announcerharris Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 A competitive outlet for groups of 4 (RWZs that require 8, and for those 8 to be a fairly limited set of classes in order to be anywhere near successful, do not meet this need) would probably solve most of these problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cycao Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 A competitive outlet for groups of 4 (RWZs that require 8, and for those 8 to be a fairly limited set of classes in order to be anywhere near successful, do not meet this need) would probably solve most of these problems. We just need more queue options. -solo only -solo only ranked -2 man -2 man with ranked -2 man with solo -2 man with solo ranked -3 and 2 man -3 and 2 man ranked -3 and 2 man with solo -3 and 2 man with solo ranked -4 man -4 man ranked -4 man with solo -4 man with solo ranked -4 man with 2 man -4 man with 2 man ranked -8 man ranked There I have solved the queue issue. No one is left out, there is something for everyone, all you need is 17 queue options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General_Aldo Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 A competitive outlet for groups of 4 (RWZs that require 8, and for those 8 to be a fairly limited set of classes in order to be anywhere near successful, do not meet this need) would probably solve most of these problems. The only "problem" is bad players. Good players will ALWAYS beat bad players, premades or no premades. Bad players just need to realize skill has a lot to do with this game. Take this from me, I PUG 100%, and I say premades are fine. Just L2P baddie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Pot5 tonight... Two imp premades trolling the queues together. Logging off for the night. This isn't worth it. Not going to put up with this headache when I can get other things done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 We just need more queue options. -solo only -solo only ranked -2 man -2 man with ranked -2 man with solo -2 man with solo ranked -3 and 2 man -3 and 2 man ranked -3 and 2 man with solo -3 and 2 man with solo ranked -4 man -4 man ranked -4 man with solo -4 man with solo ranked -4 man with 2 man -4 man with 2 man ranked -8 man ranked There I have solved the queue issue. No one is left out, there is something for everyone, all you need is 17 queue options. 17 queue options and lots of **** while you wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Pot5 tonight... Two imp premades trolling the queues together. Logging off for the night. This isn't worth it. Not going to put up with this headache when I can get other things done. There are a couple of guilds on POT5 imp side I have noticed since starting to main on pub side who's players are just better than the pub pugs I see. I don't think they are even premading half the time. They are the legend huys, DFR and a couple others. I can see just 2 from those guilds and the pubs seem to be in trouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) Not gonna call you anything of the sort. Think I've actually done a really good job of not calling solo-only players specifically low-skilled, etc... in a loooooong time. But to the bold line: It does hurt someone. If there are more solo-only queuing, then the mixed/group queue is going to suffer filling and back filling issues. The "penalty" for taking the solo-only option does not rest 100% on the player who uses it shoulders, and without some sort of immediate and recognizable penalty, there is nothing to encourage much needed solo-queued into the regular queue.) don't get me started on back fill. it's absolutely retarded. just let the WZs end. for every one back filled team that pulls out a victory, I"ll show you 19 that lost and 10 that saw the back filler quit, suck another back filler in who also quit, so on and so forth. one of the members of your team who q'd in a grp of 2-4 quit? hey. them's the breaks. you're a grp. you have infinitely more control over who's on your team than a solo player. choose better (i.e., reliable) grp mates. edit: tbh, what I really like about solo-only is 1) it's the only way to eliminate d-bag superQs and 2) I think it'd be a lot easier to code than a more intuitive matchmaking system because I have zero faith in the dev's ability to implement said thing (without a year's worth of headaches -- see the debacle with bolster). Edited July 10, 2013 by foxmob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlamela Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Bioware just go ahead and give them what they want. But at same time I want a real vote kick like they have in PVE. I want to be able to kick undergeared players from my warzone. I want to be able to kick terrible dps from my group. I want to kick defensive medal farmers from my group. I mean you have to really try hard to load into a 55 warzone and have between 20 - 23k health. My commando who is only level 52 walks around the fleet with just under 25k (thats without any bolster). The Bastion Rellik - Jenna'syyde - Crackroxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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