Bioware can you explain to me why...

[CharterMonkKent]

People are making this out to be a simple problem. DPS in this game is based on many factors.

 

Ok, all I'm trying to do here is point out why this isn't easy for Bioware to explain (or to manage or to fix or to whatever with it).

 

-Gear

-Abilities

-Procs

-Buffs

-Consumables

 

Each of those factors has specifics/issues within themselves.

 

But I'll take gear for my example. We all know the complaints here. Is full WH with EWH hands the best pvp gear in the game? Nope. Not close. BiS is the best gear in the game. The damage between fully geared WH and BiS is quite a gap, I'm not sure if most people realize this. The different between recruit and BiS is huge. And when Bioware tries to balance DPS they need to take into account all gear types. The low (most players in the game) to the high (fewest)

 

Take 2 rage juggs hitting the same toon with full proc'd smash.

 

Toon A has full BM gear, not augmented

Toon B has full recruit not augmented

Toon C has BiS

 

Toon B hits toon A with a fully proc'd smash for 0-3.3k depending on class, abilities, buffs, procs, etc.

 

Toon C hits toon A with a fully proc'd smash for 0-7k again, depending on class, abilities, buffs procs, etc.

 

How would Bioware "fix" the high damage of a BiS while not making a recruit smash jugg worthless? Who would play rage if your main attack was scaled below 3.3K? And remember any scale that brings that 7k smash down to 5ksih would also bring that 3.3k smash down to a worthless level (under 2k?).

 

The reality (maybe sad reality) is that since this game has no scaling for damage in end game pvp, there will be no way to "fix" high dps. The game is designed from A to Z to allow high DPS if the circumstances allow it. Those circumstances may be many things: gear gap (recruit to BiS and everywhere in between), buffs (think mara group buffs, wz red buffs), debuffs (armor penetration, etc.).

 

I'm not taking a stance, just pointing out some realities of how this game is built. Progression.

Edited October 18, 2012 by CharterMonkKent

[TUXs]

As others have said, it's clear the designers do not actually play any pvp. "Keeping an eye on it"... ridiculous.... GO GET IN A WARZONE and tell us it's at all balanced. God, the over-reliance on "metrics" by this team is disgraceful.

I'm so pleased you said this...now I don't have to. It's obvious they don't...not on any PvP server at least. Numbers (metrics) only tell PART of the story.

[TonyDragonflame]

I'm wonder how baddies crying about Focus/Rage. Its pure one trick pony, because this spec squishy like hell. One smash/sweep, then stun -> stun -> die. Zero survivability.

 

There are now only 1 OP class in game - its assasins/shadows. Because highest survivability, high burst, ability of total resistance for all cc, pull, force speed every 20 sec, can stun for 4 sec every 15 sec, and stealth.

[rob_y]

did anyone used Veng ? xD Juggs I know were either Tanks or Smash spammers Never heard of a veng besides the obvious hybrid specs.

 

I would guess most Jugg "tanks" were actually Vengeance/Tank hybrids.

[Soljin]

Yeah Vengeance Juggs have always been out there...But never considered OP and by some not considered competative....So Bioware decided they neede a nerf I guess..and Rage which was already considered the dominent Rated Spec and overall strongest Warriior spec got buffed....LMAO! Edited October 18, 2012 by Soljin

[Azrienov]

I asked Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Rage and Focus builds and how they're fitting into PvP overall right now, and here was his comment:

 

Rage and Focus have always been high burst specs, but they haven't been very popular due to some usability and quality of life issues in the past. Our goal for Focus and Rage was to address those issues without significantly affecting their burst. In large part, I think we've done that, but the result is that many people are playing them now, which means there's a lot of AOE burst happening in warzones that wasn't happening before. We're willing to wait and see if their popularity is a result of being viewed as "flavor of the month" (i.e. Rage/Focus populations will naturally subside as people realize the spec doesn't suit their playstyle) or if they are truly too good and were just too unusable before. In short, we're going to keep a close eye on it.

 

Allison, imo, you're the best person working for Bioware.

 

Austin, I'm confused by the need for high AoE burst in a PvP enviroment that requires close confines on three of the four maps for successful manipulation of the objectives when you nerfed DFA on the BH/Trooper. . . hmmm

[Phasersablaze]

I asked Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Rage and Focus builds and how they're fitting into PvP overall right now, and here was his comment:

 

Rage and Focus have always been high burst specs, but they haven't been very popular due to some usability and quality of life issues in the past. Our goal for Focus and Rage was to address those issues without significantly affecting their burst. In large part, I think we've done that, but the result is that many people are playing them now, which means there's a lot of AOE burst happening in warzones that wasn't happening before. We're willing to wait and see if their popularity is a result of being viewed as "flavor of the month" (i.e. Rage/Focus populations will naturally subside as people realize the spec doesn't suit their playstyle) or if they are truly too good and were just too unusable before. In short, we're going to keep a close eye on it.

 

Its posts like this that make me lose any hope I had left for my class in PVP. WHAT EXACTLY are they keeping an eye out for? Currently Mele can jump to you; stunning you (leaving you no allowance to break out of it or respond. your spells are greyed out) This gives them at least one free smash. Then you have mele who are able to spec into not being able to be knocked back after they jump to a person for 4 seconds. As a mercenary, knockbacks (or dare I say knockback now that rocket-punch was nerfed) are the ONE COUNTER WE HAVE to mele ripping our faces off.

 

Lets consider mercenary nerfs after 1.2:

 

1) Heavy nerf on tracer missile because people QQ. A CASTED ability that can be INTERRUPTED.

2) Completely neutered Heatseeker missile. Even when it was completely broken the highest hits were 8k on undergeared players. A SINGLE TARGET ability on a 15s cooldown.

 

And mele are AE smashing for 4-10k SEVERAL TIMES within a 15 second time span.

 

WHAT EXACTLY ARE THEY KEEPING AN EYE OUT FOR? Bioware is completely clueless to PVP gameplay. Every single change they have made has thrown classes even farther out of balance.

[CharterMonkKent]

Its posts like this that make me lose any hope I had left for my class in PVP. WHAT EXACTLY are they keeping an eye out for? Currently Mele can jump to you; stunning you (leaving you no allowance to break out of it or respond. your spells are greyed out) This gives them at least one free smash. Then you have mele who are able to spec into not being able to be knocked back after they jump to a person for 4 seconds. As a mercenary, knockbacks (or dare I say knockback now that rocket-punch was nerfed) are the ONE COUNTER WE HAVE to mele ripping our faces off.

 

Lets consider mercenary nerfs after 1.2:

 

1) Heavy nerf on tracer missile because people QQ. A CASTED ability that can be INTERRUPTED.

2) Completely neutered Heatseeker missile. Even when it was completely broken the highest hits were 8k on undergeared players. A SINGLE TARGET ability on a 15s cooldown.

 

And mele are AE smashing for 4-10k SEVERAL TIMES within a 15 second time span.

 

WHAT EXACTLY ARE THEY KEEPING AN EYE OUT FOR? Bioware is completely clueless to PVP gameplay. Every single change they have made has thrown classes even farther out of balance.

 

read my post below

[DrIzzt-DoUrden]

Rage / Focus does not need a nerf.

Smash / Force Sweep needs a nerf.

 

If you reduce the damage of a single ability you might not break anything.

If you tinker with an entire skill tree you might break something.

 

Just reduce the damage smash & force sweep do by lets say 20-30% and leave the skill tree alone.

[Lightbins]

It is sad that Bioware doesn't listen to the community or if they did, they did a very poor job at fixing the imbalances.

 

If the community is wrong on these issues, would love to see the devs queue up in pvp/rwz and faceoff vs guild rwz teams and stream it to the general public. Wonder if they pick all the FOTM classes for their team.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Lightbins

[Jherad]

I asked Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Rage and Focus builds and how they're fitting into PvP overall right now, and here was his comment:

 

Rage and Focus have always been high burst specs, but they haven't been very popular due to some usability and quality of life issues in the past. Our goal for Focus and Rage was to address those issues without significantly affecting their burst. In large part, I think we've done that, but the result is that many people are playing them now, which means there's a lot of AOE burst happening in warzones that wasn't happening before. We're willing to wait and see if their popularity is a result of being viewed as "flavor of the month" (i.e. Rage/Focus populations will naturally subside as people realize the spec doesn't suit their playstyle) or if they are truly too good and were just too unusable before. In short, we're going to keep a close eye on it.

 

Sigh. Were you honestly just looking at server-wide statistics rather than at what particular groups were using (eg. high end PvPers)?

 

Focus was already head and shoulders more popular than Watchman for Sentinels in premades, and was the defacto STANDARD for DPS Guardians (considerably more popular than vigilance). I honestly wonder what kind of PvP you've been doing.

[Eszi]

I asked Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Rage and Focus builds and how they're fitting into PvP overall right now, and here was his comment:

 

Rage and Focus have always been high burst specs, but they haven't been very popular due to some usability and quality of life issues in the past. Our goal for Focus and Rage was to address those issues without significantly affecting their burst. In large part, I think we've done that, but the result is that many people are playing them now, which means there's a lot of AOE burst happening in warzones that wasn't happening before. We're willing to wait and see if their popularity is a result of being viewed as "flavor of the month" (i.e. Rage/Focus populations will naturally subside as people realize the spec doesn't suit their playstyle) or if they are truly too good and were just too unusable before. In short, we're going to keep a close eye on it.

 

In short, there is no point in playing any other dps spec as sent or guardian.

[Phasersablaze]

read my post below

 

I read your post. My mercenary is Valor 95 and has been BIS for a long time. He would be valor 100 if I didn't stop playing him so much (just do daily now).

 

When I play my mercenary I feel like my hands are tied behind my back. I have no mobility/survivability, and my burst dps is not satisfying even with my BIS gear.

 

My deception assasin is wearing half recruit and half BM gear. I have greater burst dps/ mobility/ and just more utility in general. He is fun to play. Same thing with my Sentinel. Easy to kill people fast. Not stressful or hard to play at all. I can't even imagine how many heads would b rolling if I actually had BIS on either of these toons.

 

The problem is not just a gear gap. The classes are very unbalanced.

[denpic]

I asked Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Rage and Focus builds and how they're fitting into PvP overall right now, and here was his comment:

 

Rage and Focus have always been high burst specs, but they haven't been very popular due to some usability and quality of life issues in the past. Our goal for Focus and Rage was to address those issues without significantly affecting their burst. In large part, I think we've done that, but the result is that many people are playing them now, which means there's a lot of AOE burst happening in warzones that wasn't happening before. We're willing to wait and see if their popularity is a result of being viewed as "flavor of the month" (i.e. Rage/Focus populations will naturally subside as people realize the spec doesn't suit their playstyle) or if they are truly too good and were just too unusable before. In short, we're going to keep a close eye on it.

 

Really Allison does Austin or you even Play this game rage focus has been fotm since launch

And the reason you see so many focus/rage jugs is because you nerfed vigilance

It was a small nerf but when you look at the changes to focus and it original performance

You would have to be a fool to be any other spec

 

I have had a guardian since launch and its been a known fact that rage/focus was a strong popular pvp spec

Almost Every dps jug or guard in pvp was/is focus its was rare to see any other spec

I was vigilance until you nerfed it so I switched to focus just like every other vigilance guardian would of done

 

If anything you need to buff vigilance slightly so it's a option

No one will use this spec

 

Make tanking stats more viable in pvp

So tanking becomes a viable option

 

Also reduce the crit bonus to sweep/smash from leap, zealous leap because

As focus you don't even need to account for crit in gearing because of this talent

 

And finally to the devs running this show L2p your own game

Edited October 18, 2012 by denpic

[Antipodes]

Sigh. Were you honestly just looking at server-wide statistics rather than at what particular groups were using (eg. high end PvPers)?

 

Focus was already head and shoulders more popular than Watchman for Sentinels in premades, and was the defacto STANDARD for DPS Guardians (considerably more popular than vigilance). I honestly wonder what kind of PvP you've been doing.

 

High end PvPers = premades?

 

Let's define that statement more clearly. What about teams averaging 2400 rating or higher? Well, most of these teams ran one Sent/Mara and they were Combat/Carnage for the speed boost. Adding a second Sent/Mara was less common than adding a duplicate Vang/PT.

 

Now, I also think that BW was very misguided in buffing the spec, and the spec was already powerful pre-1.4. But I don't doubt it when they say the spec was played less than the other two.

[ChickenWangs]

Paying attention to jugs can tell you when they are going to use smash. If you avoid it, their dps is dead and soon after they will be too.

[Antipodes]

Paying attention to jugs can tell you when they are going to use smash. If you avoid it, their dps is dead and soon after they will be too.

 

You can't really avoid it, unless the Jugg is bad and has an ability queue of 1 second or spams his Smash button even after getting knocked back.

[ChickenWangs]

You can't really avoid it, unless the Jugg is bad and has an ability queue of 1 second or spams his Smash button even after getting knocked back.

 

Whenever jugs come after me I naturally just kite (and for some odd reason they never slow me). Guess that is the cool thing about being a vanguard.

[SgtBranham]

Just don't stack up on top of each other and smash loses most of its effectiveness. It hits an equally geared player in the 5k range. Same as a carnage maras gore/scream or a pts railshot. Rages other attacks are a lot weaker than the other dps classes. You get a big hit then 10 sec of little hits. It's fine the way it is. Just don't stack 3+ ppl on top of each other and you will be fine. Don't use your teams stupidity as an excuse to claim they are op.

[Savej]

Really Allison does Austin or you even Play this game rage focus has been fotm since launch

And the reason you see so many focus/rage jugs is because you nerfed vigilance

It was a small nerf but when you look at the changes to focus and it original performance

You would have to be a fool to be any other spec

 

I have had a guardian since launch and its been a known fact that rage/focus was a strong popular pvp spec

Almost Every dps jug or guard in pvp was/is focus its was rare to see any other spec

I was vigilance until you nerfed it so I switched to focus just like every other vigilance guardian would of done

 

If anything you need to buff vigilance slightly so it's a option

No one will use this spec

 

Make tanking stats more viable in pvp

So tanking becomes a viable option

 

Also reduce the crit bonus to sweep/smash from leap, zealous leap because

As focus you don't even need to account for crit in gearing because of this talent

 

And finally to the devs running this show L2p your own game

 

Rage/Focus was not FOTM since launch - it took most people a month or two to figure out it was the best guardian dps spec. And then most people figured out that Watchmen was better than everything a month or two after that. Vigilance was solid as of 1.2 and watchman got nerfed a bit. Then in 1.3 it was combat for sentinels and guardians in pvp were mostly tank hybrid ball carriers, guards and aoe slowers (focus was too much of an easily nullified glass cannon). Pure focus guardians became rare and a bit of a joke. Now in 1.4 people can play guardian dps again and be viable (in pve too) which is what most people wanted in the first place: dps guardians, the iconic class of this game, are getting taken off their shelves, dusted off and are being used again. And they're doing a lot of damage. But there are still plenty of other classes/specs that will wipe the floor with pure rage/focus specs in 1v1 fights. I don't see the focus/rage trend lasting; I am seeing a lot more operatives and deception sins running around on POT5.

 

I do agree that the upper vigilance tree probably needs some love.

[Larry_Dallas]

I asked Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Rage and Focus builds and how they're fitting into PvP overall right now, and here was his comment:

 

Rage and Focus have always been high burst specs, but they haven't been very popular due to some usability and quality of life issues in the past. Our goal for Focus and Rage was to address those issues without significantly affecting their burst. In large part, I think we've done that, but the result is that many people are playing them now, which means there's a lot of AOE burst happening in warzones that wasn't happening before. We're willing to wait and see if their popularity is a result of being viewed as "flavor of the month" (i.e. Rage/Focus populations will naturally subside as people realize the spec doesn't suit their playstyle) or if they are truly too good and were just too unusable before. In short, we're going to keep a close eye on it.

 

Thanks Allison, but geez, talk about this Austin guy misunderstanding why Rage was unpopular.

 

And it wasn't "quality of life" or "usability" issues. On the "usability" front, rage was, by FAR, the easiest of the 3 marauder specs to play and have success with. While the other two specs could be more useful, they also had a much higher skill-cap. This lead to the perception that if you're not good enough to play Carnage or Annihilation, you should use Rage because even a monkey can do a decent job with it (hence the term, Rage Monkeys).

 

In short--because it was too easy to have success with, Rage had a stigma attached to it: if you're playing rage, the perception is it's because you're not good enough to have the same success with something else. The answer to this problem (is this even a problem?) is not to buff armor penetration, make smashes more frequent and sometimes free and generally make it even easier to use. I mean, PT had a similar stigma attached to it (to a lesser extent), and their range got whacked, which funkifies the pvp rotation and energy use. the class still bursts, but it's not at all intuitive. I don't quite see why someone would see two classes that the same sort of things are said about, whack one, then majorly buff the other.

 

But the better question is why the frig is Austin even sitting around, thinking about there not being enough rage marauders in warzones in the first place? It's not like they were ever scarce. You've always seen about 100 Rage maras for every, for instance, Advanced Prototype Powertech (I don't think I've seen one ever in a warzone...or a flashpoint, come to think of it, that wasn't a guildie trying it for a day or two). I didn't see that class's damage doubled to attract new players.

 

I mean, how this even ended up on the radar just baffles me.

 

"Well, let's check this report. It says that Rage is the 8th least used spec seen in warzones...OH LORD, CAN'T HAVE THAT!!!!11"

 

Um, what?

[denpic]

Rage/Focus was not FOTM since launch - it took most people a month or two to figure out it was the best guardian dps spec. And then most people figured out that Watchmen was better than everything a month or two after that. Vigilance was solid as of 1.2 and watchman got nerfed a bit. Then in 1.3 it was combat for sentinels and guardians in pvp were mostly tank hybrid ball carriers, guards and aoe slowers (focus was too much of an easily nullified glass cannon). Pure focus guardians became rare and a bit of a joke. Now in 1.4 people can play guardian dps again and be viable (in pve too) which is what most people wanted in the first place: dps guardians, the iconic class of this game, are getting taken off their shelves, dusted off and are being used again. And they're doing a lot of damage. But there are still plenty of other classes/specs that will wipe the floor with pure rage/focus specs in 1v1 fights. I don't see the focus/rage trend lasting; I am seeing a lot more operatives and deception sins running around on POT5.

 

I do agree that the upper vigilance tree probably needs some love.

 

Well I guess the 2 pvp servers I play on didn't follow this notion because every guard and his dog were focus it was rare to see any thing else maybe 1or 2 defence vig hybrids but its pretty common knowledge in pvp focus is king

I'm specifically talking about guardians not sentinels some of the best ranked teams are running 3 focus guards

And as for pve Vigilance was always viable strong and up in the top dps range so I don't know where your getting this idea we weren't pre 1.4 guards have always been beast

 

Before 1.4 vigilance was our top pve dps performer And focus was top pvp dps with the changes to focus

Focus is now equal if not better in pve dps than vigilance and also out performs vigilance in pvp by a large margin

Edited October 19, 2012 by denpic

[Sharn-]

One and even two in a war zone isn't so bad, its when you have four and they are coordinated, three of them going after the same target will kill that target in far too short of a time frame, and no amount of healing and protection will save them.

 

This problem is compounded by the fact that the spec encourages them to forgo unnecessary stats on gear, no other melee class can completely remove accuracy and crit from all of their gear in exchange for power and still be effective, rage however can do this, and it causes their aoe to hit much harder then would be expected.

 

Carnage for example cant do this, they need crit to put out burst, and while accuracy can be overlooked by choice, the moment they try to kill a tank without it they will find themselves in the dead box without taking more then 20% of the players health.

[warstory]

Larry-Dallas hit the nail on the head, someone in your company should be gathering feedback from the class forums about each spec in each class. People ask questions all the time about specs from the replies there you can get a Sense of class needs.

 

Rage juggernuant has too much control and too much burst ATM leap (stun) pop rage, obliterate (stun), smash, for e crush, force push (stun), saber throw, leap ( stun), ravage, force scream, obliterate(stun), smash,force choke finisher if u even need it. U guys made a mistake just fix it. I played almost every class and tried a lot of different specs. Sorcerer lightning spec needs a buff cast times vs dmg out in pvp makes that spec near unplayable.

Edited October 19, 2012 by warstory

[Atrummos]

It's so funny to see people cry about this when Rage/Focus has been able to do that damage since......ever.

 

While you are correct in your statement that rage/focus has been CAPABLE of doing that damage previously it was harder to do so because smash was not instant.

 

Good players saved their push/stun etc for when they saw the stacks of singularity and witnessed the 'jump' animation of the smash.

 

Now, you are either lucky with your timing or you get hit... and hard... in the face...

 

Smash has become the braindead dps spec and it does sadden me, as vengeance was in need of some love (not the nerf it received).

 

And, to clarify, I play a Sith Warrior, but fulfill the role of pvp tank, not smash spec