Dev's Promise Still Unfulfilled

[Narthil]

Hey guys,

 

I'm not one to complain, as I actually believe the BioWare crew is doing a great job and Devs are doing quite well in this extremely young game (not even a year old).

 

However, a few month's ago the Devs promised that all DPS classes would be within a 5% DPS range of each other. It has been proven over and over that this is not the case using both simulations and real live situations with parsing logs.

 

SimulationCraft has the best proof. A combat simulation with 50,000 iterations and 8 threads of all DPS classes and all trees in full campaign gear during raids with the best possible DPS rotations for each.

 

Here: http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign.html

 

Here's another, with full campaign BiS and same conditions: http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

 

People will argue that this is a simulation, well, if you run a parser on a real and live endgame situation such as a RWZ or the hardest raid in BiS gear, the order of DPS is almost exactly the same, simply because SC considers a variable called "Skill" providing a % error margin of failure in following the priority list and rotation based on the skill of the player.

 

Same applies to PvP, see the charts of RWZ with BiS guilds and the results will be the same in damage to kill ratio.

 

Note how the Sniper is 10% above the Sorceror, that is nowhere near the developer's statement.

 

I don't mind being the lowest DPS in the game (since I get other stuff like a few heals), as long as it's within the 5% promised range.

 

Of course these are results pre 1.4, but the underperforming classes however did not get any damage buffs in any of the trees on 1.4, so I don't see how it changes anything.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Sniper's should be nerfed, I think they are perfect right now. But some classes definitely need a damage buff. (Hint: Guardians/Juggs did not).

 

Thoughts?

Edited October 4, 2012 by Narthil

[DarthMeerkat]

Hey guys,

 

I'm not one to complain, as I actually believe the BioWare crew is doing a great job and Dev's are doing quite well in this extremely young game (not even a year old).

 

However, a few month's ago the dev's promised that all DPS classes would be within a 5% DPS range of each other. It has been proven over and over that this is not the case.

 

SimulationCraft has the best proof. A combat simulation with 50,000 iterations and 8 threads of all DPS classes and all trees in full campaign gear during raids with the best possible DPS rotations for each. Here: http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign.html

 

Note how the Sniper is 10% above the Sage, that is nowhere near the developer's statement.

 

Of course these are results pre 1.4, but the underperforming classes however did not get any damage buffs in any of the trees on 1.4, so I don't see how it changes anything.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Sniper's should be nerfed, I think they are perfect right now. But some classes definitely need a damage buff. (Hint: Guardians/Juggs did not).

 

Thanks.

 

A 10% difference is a blessing. Here's WoWs http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/

 

Edit: Not saying everythings fine but lets be honest this could be much much much worse.

Edited October 3, 2012 by DarthMeerkat

[Narthil]

A 10% difference is a blessing. Here's WoWs http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/

 

Edit: Not saying everythings fine but lets be honest this could be much much much worse.

 

Well, people are playing characters and rolling them based on a promise made by the Devs. If they won't fulfill what they state, who will?

 

Do they want to be WoW, or beat WoW?

Edited October 3, 2012 by Narthil

[DarthMeerkat]

Well, people are playing characters and rolling them based on a promise made by the Devs. If they won't fulfill what they state, who will?

 

Do they want to be WoW, or beat WoW?

 

IDK But after I left the game back in 1.2 I made the decision to take what the devs (of pretty much every mmo) say with a grain of salt. A 5% difference would be awesome, but rather unrealistic when compared to everything out there (Rift WoW GW2). As far as I am concerned 10% is acceptable and by my accounts much better than most other MMOs I've played.

[Feztonio]

i'd settle for all the dps classes and specs doing reasonable damage. there's a reason i've not seen a single raiding dps scoundrel. there has to be a reason most raids are 2 warrior / sentinel tanks and 4 warrior/sentinel dps and then 2 healers - at least one of which if not both are sorc/inquiz.

 

i know some of it is folks want to be sith/jedi.. but if a melee operative was the top dps for the min/max raiders, then there'd be 4 melee operatives in every raid. it's the way raiders play. if a class or spec makes them better they flock to it.

[Redundant]

Balancing takes absolutely years to get right. It really isn't as simple as increase a certain AC damage by some much %. It depends on sooo many factors. It might be a more suitable fight for ranged than melee, or the ranged have to cc more than melee so they can dps like there is no tomorrow. They also have to take into consideration PVP. Increase the damage of a class in pve will have a knock on effect in PVP.

 

However, the community is doing the right thing. Showing the devs through dps metres and your own experience where you believe the problem lies. Thats really all you can do.

 

To be honest I don't believe the class can ever be truly balanced.

[Narthil]

Balancing takes absolutely years to get right. It really isn't as simple as increase a certain AC damage by some much %. It depends on sooo many factors. It might be a more suitable fight for ranged than melee, or the ranged have to cc more than melee so they can dps like there is no tomorrow. They also have to take into consideration PVP. Increase the damage of a class in pve will have a knock on effect in PVP.

 

However, the community is doing the right thing. Showing the devs through dps metres and your own experience where you believe the problem lies. Thats really all you can do.

 

To be honest I don't believe the class can ever be truly balanced.

 

Well, in the case of Sorcerors, they also underperform in endgame PvP (meaning RWZ). So it is that simple, increase DoT damage by 10%-20% which will give you a 5% overall increase.

 

Marauder DoTs tick for twice the damage of Sorc DoTs... That doesn't mean to equal them (which would be a 100% increase), but slightly buffing them by 20% won't hurt anyone and only balance.

[WookieIsshe]

Try playing a commando, we are probably 20% below all dps classes and continue to get nerfed every single patch.

[Narthil]

Try playing a commando, we are probably 20% below all dps classes and continue to get nerfed every single patch.

 

I'm not sure if Commando has a DPS tree, but if it does, it definitely needs a buff as well.

 

I reallly don't mind being the lowest damage within the 5% range, if there really was a 5% difference as promised and not a 10%-20% range..

Edited October 3, 2012 by Narthil

[ObiJuanShenobi]

Hey guys,

 

I'm not one to complain,

 

Best prelude to a complaint...EVER

[Spatology]

They are closer then an mmo ive personally played, also, you are baseing your theory on min max numbers a computer can put out.

 

I'm not prone to thinking humans can come close without some third party program.

 

Perhaps the dps metrics are balanced around average play style and the amount of buttons people can keep on cooldown.

[TUXs]

I'm not sure if Commando has a DPS tree, but if it does, it definitely needs a buff as well.

 

I reallly don't mind being the lowest damage within the 5% range, if there really was a 5% difference as promised and not a 10%-20% range..

 

2 trees actually lol

[KorrigTS]

I agree with OP, Sorcs are definitely on the low end of the DPS classes. This doesn't mean a very good player can't perform better than a sniper while on a sorc, but he has to work significantly harder to do so and there needs to be a large skill gap. I'm not opposed to the higher skill cap on classes, but the DPS should be much closer if you can play the class very well.

 

I'm interested in hearing the plans for balance among the DPS classes. It'd be great to get a response on when the devs plan to seriously dive into gathering metrics and get the ACs balanced.

[Uluain]

Hey guys,

 

I'm not one to complain, as I actually believe the BioWare crew is doing a great job and Devs are doing quite well in this extremely young game (not even a year old).

 

However, a few months ago the Devs promised ...

 

^ There you go. It is a new game. They have stated their design aim. They aren't there yet, but they also are looking ahead toward Lvl 55, I'm sure. Give it time.

[manchusabre]

Over promised, under delivered seems to be the theme here.

[Urael]

Note how the Sniper is 10% above the Sorceror, that is nowhere near the developer's statement.

 

We need to be. We are basically egg shells armed with hammers.

 

[MillionsKNives]

Try playing a commando, we are probably 20% below all dps classes and continue to get nerfed every single patch.

 

Are you talking PVE or PVP? For PVP I know merc's long cast times cause problems, but in PVE mercs hit more than fine.

[Lostpenguins]

Try playing a commando, we are probably 20% below all dps classes and continue to get nerfed every single patch.

 

If the commando plays anything like the merc (which, it absolutely does), then you're wrong because a merc can keep up with my marauder dps all time time. If anything, a proper merc, PT, and sniper can beat my marauder in most fights, especially if there's AoE involved or forced disconnect from the boss (luckily HM TFB doesn't really have that and as melee I'm even given leniency in certain fights like DG council where I can stay on Heirad during lightning storm while everyone spreads out).

[Monoth]

Hey guys,

 

I'm not one to complain, as I actually believe the BioWare crew is doing a great job and Devs are doing quite well in this extremely young game (not even a year old).

 

However, a few month's ago the Devs promised that all DPS classes would be within a 5% DPS range of each other. It has been proven over and over that this is not the case.

 

SimulationCraft has the best proof. A combat simulation with 50,000 iterations and 8 threads of all DPS classes and all trees in full campaign gear during raids with the best possible DPS rotations for each.

 

Here: http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign.html

 

Here's another, with full campaign BiS and same conditions: http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

 

Note how the Sniper is 10% above the Sorceror, that is nowhere near the developer's statement.

 

Of course these are results pre 1.4, but the underperforming classes however did not get any damage buffs in any of the trees on 1.4, so I don't see how it changes anything.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Sniper's should be nerfed, I think they are perfect right now. But some classes definitely need a damage buff. (Hint: Guardians/Juggs did not).

 

Thanks.

 

 

So you think a DPS Sorc who can also heal himself should have the exact same DPS as a Sniper who can't heal himself.... Yeah that's real balanced...

 

Tell you what when they make it so Snipers can heal themselves like DPS Sorc's do then I will agree with you about having the same DPS....

[Monoth]

If the commando plays anything like the merc (which, it absolutely does), then you're wrong because a merc can keep up with my marauder dps all time time. If anything, a proper merc, PT, and sniper can beat my marauder in most fights, especially if there's AoE involved or forced disconnect from the boss (luckily HM TFB doesn't really have that and as melee I'm even given leniency in certain fights like DG council where I can stay on Heirad during lightning storm while everyone spreads out).

 

People also forget that Gear + Augments + proper Rotation plays a huge role in what kind of DPS you can do... Mess up any of these and your going to be subpar to what you could be.

[KorrigTS]

So you think a DPS Sorc who can also heal himself should have the exact same DPS as a Sniper who can't heal himself.... Yeah that's real balanced...

 

Tell you what when they make it so Snipers can heal themselves like DPS Sorc's do then I will agree with you about having the same DPS....

 

You're implying that there should be a hybrid tax. We can assume BW doesn't acknowledge that there should be one by their vague "within 5%" statement. If you're in the raid as a lightning/madness sorc, you're there to DPS. Not to pick up healing slack just because you have that ability in your spell book.

[Monoth]

You're implying that there should be a hybrid tax. We can assume BW doesn't acknowledge that there should be one by their vague "within 5%" statement. If you're in the raid as a lightning/madness sorc, you're there to DPS. Not to pick up healing slack just because you have that ability in your spell book.

 

The issue comes into play in PvP, as a DPS who can heal gives you an advantage.... If you truely only want to DPS then roll a PURE DPS class....

 

Otherwise yes, your going to be penalized a bit in dps for having healing abilities...

[Karasuko]

Hey guys,

 

I'm not one to complain, as I actually believe the BioWare crew is doing a great job and Devs are doing quite well in this extremely young game (not even a year old).

 

However, a few month's ago the Devs promised that all DPS classes would be within a 5% DPS range of each other. It has been proven over and over that this is not the case.

 

SimulationCraft has the best proof. A combat simulation with 50,000 iterations and 8 threads of all DPS classes and all trees in full campaign gear during raids with the best possible DPS rotations for each.

 

Here: http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign.html

 

Here's another, with full campaign BiS and same conditions: http://simulationcraft.org/swtor/130/Raid_Campaign_BiS.html

 

Note how the Sniper is 10% above the Sorceror, that is nowhere near the developer's statement.

 

Of course these are results pre 1.4, but the underperforming classes however did not get any damage buffs in any of the trees on 1.4, so I don't see how it changes anything.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Sniper's should be nerfed, I think they are perfect right now. But some classes definitely need a damage buff. (Hint: Guardians/Juggs did not).

 

Thanks.

 

Oh look its this guy spamming his almost useless simcraft thingo again. get it through your incredibly thick skull.

SIMCRAFT IS NOT THE BIBLE, IT DOES NOT ACCURATELY REFLECT PLAYER SKILL, EVERYONES GAMING PC OR INTERNET SPEED. ITS ALSO ONLY SIMS A PATCHWERK STYLE ENCOUNTER OF WHICH THERE ARE NOT MANY IN THIS GAME.

 

move along nothing to see here

[KorrigTS]

I'll never understand the hatred towards simulations. Done correctly, they are a very great tool for getting the most out of your character.

[SoonerJBD]

I've been complaining about this for some time now. I don't expect they will get the balance perfect right off, but my frustration comes from the fact that the data has been pretty clear for some time now that some DPS specs are parsing 10 percent or more higher than others both in simulations and the ranked logs, and they have made balance changes but have done nothing to address the imbalance in DPS. If their goal is for DPS specs to be within 5 percent of each other, as they have stated, why aren't they doing ANYTHING to reach that goal when they are clearly missing it by so much?

 

I will say some of the mechanics in TFB seem to favor ranged classes, but Snipers are still outperforming other ranged classes by WAY too much.