A simple fix for PVP, why are more people not advocating this?

[GalnarDegana]

Here is my issue with the geared players playing ranked. It is limited to a group of 8. I would put all my credits on the line to say that most full WH PvPers grinded their gear doing regulars either alone or with a select few friends. it is tough to find a full group of 8 outside of primtime (or sometimes during primetime) to queue up. Secondly, since there are limited groups that can scrape together 8 well geared players to be competitive, the queues are crazy long. Who wants to sit and wait when we can slowly have fun grinding out regular coms. I think the root of the problem is the fact that it is limited to a full premade 8 man team. My suggestion would be to not open it up to free solo queing (that would be a mess) but to allow 2 groups of 4 to be paired together. That would keep the integrity of the competition by forcing a 4 man team to queue and it would keep out the random solo recruit gear queuers. And just for reference I am a full WH sentinel with both Elite WH weapons at 76 valor.

 

This is essentially my block when it comes to ranked PvP. I tend to play solo, so I can never get in a ranked WZ. If we were allowed to queue for a solo queue, like they had initially said, then I guarantee that many good players that are well geared would go for the ranked WZs, leaving the regular WZs to the masses.

 

Essentially, the grind was an accident of the system. Rewind back to 1.2 and the decision to nix the ranked warzones, but allow people to purchase ranked commendations with a 3:1 ratio of regular commendations. This allowed people with a ton of time to get the War Hero gear very soon after it was available, and then proceed to make it very difficult for people who had BM gear to get commendations, due to the fact they had a harder time against the WH-geared people.

 

Fast forward to now, when we have ranked warzones and no incentive to do them. I will admit that I personally only queue solo and slowly grind out the ranked commendations through this system, but I am the first to say one should never defend a system just because one has worked hard in it.

 

A good plan for now would be the following:

 

• Remove the ability to change ranked commendations into regular commendations
  
• Split regular Warzones into two queues, one that has <1.1k expertise (approx. BM) and one that has >1.1k expertise. There would have to be a system that locks your gear, as people were saying, so you couldn't game the system.
  
• Ranked Warzones should be the only source of ranked commendations.
  

[DegreesOfFreedom]

Yep, ranked warzones give much more ranked commendations, win or lose. In fact, losing a ranked game will earn you more comms than even winning a normal game.

 

That's not the point. The problem is not many people are queueing for ranked as the ranked queue is broken. People would rather go for normals as the incentive is inadequate as well as systematic barriers inherent in the current ranked system. There is a reason why you only see the same 4-5 teams in ranked matches with 90% of the time having the same composition of people. That is broken. With the current system in place, that is too few of a people queuing for ranked. It doesn't matter if the pop is constant if its with the same teams all the time. For a thriving ranked pvp to work, there must be a lot more competition than that.

[To-le]

If only everyone had the time to complete their daily "every day"...

 

The total cost for WH Gear is now about 26000 Ranked comms + 1000 Normal comms. That's not even including the cost of buying all the BM gear for a fresh 50. And again, not everyone has the time to do all the daily's - it will literally take these people months, me included to get full WH on a fresh 50. That's months of getting my butt handed to me because I have real-life commitments.

 

Bioware have catered to a niche crowd of hardcore players and look at where it has gotten them.

 

Do you not have any well geared guildies that will group with you? When I pvp I prefer to group up and not get stuck with that fresh 50 in recruit gear. Even if your guildies are not great pvpers, its better than having bantha fodder in there. Hell I even have peeps on my friends list that are legit but not in my guild. It pays off to be that guy that invites others,

[Batllis]

If only everyone had the time to complete their daily "every day"...

 

The total cost for WH Gear is now about 26000 Ranked comms + 1000 Normal comms. That's not even including the cost of buying all the BM gear for a fresh 50. And again, not everyone has the time to do all the daily's - it will literally take these people months, me included to get full WH on a fresh 50. That's months of getting my butt handed to me because I have real-life commitments.

 

Do people seriously want this game to remain a failure? If Bioware want to entice people to come back, they MUST cater to these players. People enjoy the PvP in this game, it is enough to make them want to play. What they do not enjoy is a grind that is out of reach not only for them, but for the majority of people who originally purchased the game. These people do not have the time nor the patience - and who can blame them.

 

Bioware have catered to a niche crowd of hardcore players and look at where it has gotten them.

 

This thread is ridiculous and it is all your fault. A lot of what you said about ranked was ranked on hear say and not things you have actually done. Your complaining about dailys is also unreasonable. An average pvp match is about 15 minutes. On the server I play on, it takes about 5-10 minutes to queue. That means about an hour or so to complete your daily. If you want the gear, you have to do this crazy thing called pvp. This game isn't a failure. This game is starting to fail because there is not a lot of community stuff to do end-game i.e. the economy isn't player driven and the pvp isn't open world. It would be great if they put in ways to craft schematics and sell them, but they don't have that. They also don't have guild vs. guild options which would increase pvp. They also don't have any incentive to gain from open world pvp such as a banner or title or something along those lines. Ranked warzones are a great idea, but there are not enough competitive teams playing. People complain about gear, but if you are doing a ranked warzone, you should expect people who are competitive i.e. best gear.

[Kirothen]

This thread is ridiculous and it is all your fault. A lot of what you said about ranked was ranked on hear say and not things you have actually done. Your complaining about dailys is also unreasonable. An average pvp match is about 15 minutes. On the server I play on, it takes about 5-10 minutes to queue. That means about an hour or so to complete your daily. If you want the gear, you have to do this crazy thing called pvp. This game isn't a failure. This game is starting to fail because there is not a lot of community stuff to do end-game i.e. the economy isn't player driven and the pvp isn't open world. It would be great if they put in ways to craft schematics and sell them, but they don't have that. They also don't have guild vs. guild options which would increase pvp. They also don't have any incentive to gain from open world pvp such as a banner or title or something along those lines. Ranked warzones are a great idea, but there are not enough competitive teams playing. People complain about gear, but if you are doing a ranked warzone, you should expect people who are competitive i.e. best gear.

 

I love it. Even if you get 4 losses, it will take an hour to do your daily each day. You could even omit weekends and still get your weekly done even and have half WH before you even realized it. And not only are you grinding gear, practice makes perfect. You are put in different scenarios where you master you abilities and survivability. I feel like the people who are complaining about the grind are the people who dont play often enough to earn the gear they want. I myself find it massively rewarding to grind out a piece of gear that took time and effort to obtain.

[JustxJerry]

BIg hits on under geared players are amusing, but I don't think this is healthy for the game. Personally, I would love to see a more people on a level playing field quicker.

 

Do you wonder if the people who want to keep the gear discrepancy because "they had to grind it" are the first to ridicule someone for having 14k hp's?

[Asukaa]

Then there is another bonus, what we will start seeing once everyone starts gearing up to the same level in Ranked Warzones, is games becoming more competitive and based on skill, which is what Ranked Warzones are all about in the first place! All the idiots who just want to steamroll the lesser geared players will still have their Normal Warzones and the rest of us will finally be able to start playing competitively and actually having some real fun.

 

It’s a win/win, and I think a little change like this could not only fix PvP, but save SWTOR in its entirety as the majority of people who have left, have done so because of PvP.

 

Isn’t it about time to lessen the gear grind for WH gear and actually make gearing up through Ranked Warzones viable?

 

Shouldn't be in RWZ's with BM gear. That's my opinion anyway.

[Kirothen]

BIg hits on under geared players are amusing, but I don't think this is healthy for the game. Personally, I would love to see a more people on a level playing field quicker.

 

Do you wonder if the people who want to keep the gear discrepancy because "they had to grind it" are the first to ridicule someone for having 14k hp's?

 

The gear discrepancy is a choice made by the person who doesnt want to put the work in thats all. Im not saying oh i grinded my gear and look at the difference in gear. I rock, keep it that way. Im just saying that I started this game enjoying the content, casually PvPd with guildies then realized that if I wanted to be better geared out I had to earn it so guess what, I did.

[criminalheretic]

I quit a few months back because I wasn’t enjoying myself in PvP, quit simply because I only had full BM gear and didn’t have the time to grind out WH gear to be truly competitive. I’ve now come back and am beginning to realise why I quit in the first place, the grind for WH gear is joke, and that’s when I already have full BM. I wanted to start working on my Scoundrel too, but having to grind out not only BM gear, but then WH gear on top of that just in order to be competitive is really putting a bad taste in my mouth. PvP is not fun when you are going up against WH premade over and over, it’s as simple as that.

 

The biggest issue is that losing a Normal Warzone will actually net you more Ranked Warzone commendations than losing a Ranked Warzone... Which is ridiculous, it’s no wonder all the premade WH groups are playing normal WZ’s... Not only do they get more Ranked Warzone commendations if they actually do lose, but the chances of them going up against a rookie pug and stomping them is greatly increased, giving them even more Ranked Warzone commendations for little effort. Since when is designing PVP to cater to this kind of behaviour good game design?

 

The fix is so simple I really am surprised it’s not been done already. If you make losing a Ranked Warzone more lucrative and actually viable for gearing up to WH, it would fix PvP entirely. Recruit players would be left to fight other recruit players in Normal Warzones whilst trying to get their BM gear, and the rest of us in our BM gear and up would be left playing in Ranked Warzones trying to get full WH gear.

 

Then there is another bonus, what we will start seeing once everyone starts gearing up to the same level in Ranked Warzones, is games becoming more competitive and based on skill, which is what Ranked Warzones are all about in the first place! All the idiots who just want to steamroll the lesser geared players will still have their Normal Warzones and the rest of us will finally be able to start playing competitively and actually having some real fun.

 

It’s a win/win, and I think a little change like this could not only fix PvP, but save SWTOR in its entirety as the majority of people who have left, have done so because of PvP.

 

Isn’t it about time to lessen the gear grind for WH gear and actually make gearing up through Ranked Warzones viable?

 

Someone may have already corrected this, but you do NOT get more comms for losing a normal WZ than a ranked WZ. Even if you lose a ranked match by a lot, you get like 43 ranked comms. Which is like 129 normal comms. You are actually better off losing ranked matches than winning non-ranked in terms of comms.

[Sweeet]

This thread is ridiculous and it is all your fault. A lot of what you said about ranked was ranked on hear say and not things you have actually done. Your complaining about dailys is also unreasonable. An average pvp match is about 15 minutes. On the server I play on, it takes about 5-10 minutes to queue. That means about an hour or so to complete your daily. If you want the gear, you have to do this crazy thing called pvp. This game isn't a failure. This game is starting to fail because there is not a lot of community stuff to do end-game i.e. the economy isn't player driven and the pvp isn't open world. It would be great if they put in ways to craft schematics and sell them, but they don't have that. They also don't have guild vs. guild options which would increase pvp. They also don't have any incentive to gain from open world pvp such as a banner or title or something along those lines. Ranked warzones are a great idea, but there are not enough competitive teams playing. People complain about gear, but if you are doing a ranked warzone, you should expect people who are competitive i.e. best gear.

 

Bioware had a vision for SWTOR and that vision has utterly failed. SWTOR is now a shell of its former self and has lost between 75-90% of it's subscriber base. How has the game not failed? Now they are going FTP and everyone at Bioware has left or is leaving, even Daniel Erickson has literally just decided it's time to move on.

 

PvP was the biggest drive for people playing the game when it released, Bioware openly admitted they had no idea PvP would be so popular. But instead of catering to the masses and making PvP more accessible to the average player who was enjoying this new PvP experience, they went with the original MMO formula which is grind grind grind. It put people off playing PvP as it was obviously no fun at all for these average gamers, and they left in droves. I've never in my years of playing MMO's seen such upset at the way Bioware treated PvP in this game, it's one of the games strongest selling points, yet they squandered it and look at the games future now.

 

Currently grinding WH gear is unpleasant for the average player, there is no incentive for the average player to partake in Ranked Warzones - and the game is suffering for it, it has not stopped suffering for it. I offer a simple solution that would not only alleviate the grind for WH gear, but also get people actually wanting to play Ranked over Normal Warzones and I'm being ridiculous? Are you that small-minded that none of what I've said makes any sense to you? Or are you lost in your own little world of self-entitlement?

Edited October 3, 2012 by Sweeet

[Sweeet]

Someone may have already corrected this, but you do NOT get more comms for losing a normal WZ than a ranked WZ. Even if you lose a ranked match by a lot, you get like 43 ranked comms. Which is like 129 normal comms. You are actually better off losing ranked matches than winning non-ranked in terms of comms.

 

Yes so I've heard thanks. But I've also heard that you can indeed get fewer than 43 if you get steam-rolled by the opposition. I'd love to do Ranked all evening when I have the time to play, but there is such a stigma about them nowadays it's impossible to get a group together. Not to mention with hardly anyone playing them, by the time the queue would have popped, you'd have been better off just running the Normal Warzones in the first place.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Sweeet

[Technohic]

Now tell me again why we don't want a solo queue for ranked?

 

I mean, I see complaints about not enough ranked matches. Wouldn't allowing a solo queue at least give the organized geared group someone to farm? In turn, it would let some solo queuers to bite the bullet and take their beating for comms without having to talk 7 others into joining them,

[JustxJerry]

I wanted to be better geared out I had to earn it so guess what, I did.

 

Guess what, I did too. Problem is not that many people will go through the same grind that you and I did, well, not for this game anywho. So instead of having BW/EA protect my uber elite gear status by making my level of gear such a long grind, I would rather it be simpler.

 

I believe that the long grind has lots to do with the decline in subs. How cool will my gear will be when my fleet drops down to 60 people per night?

[Sweeet]

Now tell me again why we don't want a solo queue for ranked?

 

I mean, I see complaints about not enough ranked matches. Wouldn't allowing a solo queue at least give the organized geared group someone to farm? In turn, it would let some solo queuers to bite the bullet and take their beating for comms without having to talk 7 others into joining them,

 

Personally I don't feel that solo queueing is a good idea because it causes people to remain disconnected from each other. Pugs in Normal Warzones are bad enough as it is, forcing people to at least group up gets the communication flowing from the get go and in Ranked Warzones communication is key. It also forces people to behave if they don't want to get a bad name for themselves.

 

If they were to just raise the incentive and get people making premades and queueing for Ranked Warzones, I honestly believe it would do the game a world of good. Everyone gets what they want, within reason. It really is win/win.

[Technohic]

Personally I don't feel that solo queueing is a good idea because it causes people to remain disconnected from each other. Pugs in Normal Warzones are bad enough as it is, forcing people to at least group up gets the communication flowing from the get go and in Ranked Warzones communication is key. It also forces people to behave if they don't want to get a bad name for themselves.

 

If they were to just raise the incentive and get people making premades and queueing for Ranked Warzones, I honestly believe it would do the game a world of good. Everyone gets what they want, within reason. It really is win/win.

 

Biggest incentive you could add to premades is them popping more often. Will pop more often if there are some willing lambs to the slaughter.

 

I do notice a trend here. It seems most people want to force others to play a certain way. weven when someone complains about being forced to play one way, they then suggest being forced to play another.

[Sweeet]

Biggest incentive you could add to premades is them popping more often. Will pop more often if there are some willing lambs to the slaughter.

 

I do notice a trend here. It seems most people want to force others to play a certain way. weven when someone complains about being forced to play one way, they then suggest being forced to play another.

 

That's a bit of a strong-armed way of looking at it. It's not about forcing people to play a certain way, it's about encouraging teamwork. As such random pugs have no place in Ranked Warzones and I fully understand Bioware's rationale for not allowing it. What I don't understand is Bioware shooting themselves in the foot patch after patch whilst trying to cater to a dying breed of player.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Sweeet

[DegreesOfFreedom]

Now tell me again why we don't want a solo queue for ranked?

 

I mean, I see complaints about not enough ranked matches. Wouldn't allowing a solo queue at least give the organized geared group someone to farm? In turn, it would let some solo queuers to bite the bullet and take their beating for comms without having to talk 7 others into joining them,

 

I've never understood the motivations of people saying solo queueing in ranked is a bad thing and this is coming from a person that belongs in a decent guild that plays regularly together. Seriously, if they want to solo queue and group up with pugs and get their butts kick, let them. The part I do not understand is when people say ranked is designed for groups not puggers then end the argument there without considering the actual consequence of the path they have chosen baffles me. Ok, yes the ranked matches are designed for groups and that will reflect on their record because most likely you would be winning against puggers most of the time if you are in a well coordinated team. But people seems to argue that once this is implemented that everyone would stop grouping up for some reason. We would still have an ability to group up in ranked matches and most likely people that belong in a well coordinated team would faceroll puggers and be reflected in their ranking disposition. This does not in any way diminish the quality of ranked as it stands now, in fact it increases competition which seems to be the main problem right now. Honestly, people need to get off their high horses and thinking their all elite and crap and start to think more about the bigger picture.

[Technohic]

That's a bit of a strong way of looking at it. It's not about forcing people to play a certain way, it's about encouraging teamwork. As such random pugs have no place in a Ranked Warzones and I fully understand Bioware's rational for not allowing it. What I don't understand is Bioware shooting themselves in the foot patch after patch whilst trying to cater to a dying breed of player.

 

It's not just your point of view here. It is everywhere that I am getting at.

 

Force people with X armor into ranked or don't allow people to queue without at least Y expertise

Force people with X valor into ranked or, don't allow anyone with y valor or below into ranked

Create seperate queues for PUGs and premades.

 

You don't HAVE to actually make a mechanic to do anything. Things would naturally work out to where if you really wanted to not be mauled, you would still group. Maybe you don't mind; what does that matter to the person mauling you compared to having to go play non-ranked and still maul PUGs? no different. but at least they might get their maulings in on ranked while people who would complain about being mauled could catch more of a break in non-ranked.

[TridusSWTOR]

If you dont have the time to put in for the grind dont come to the threads crying about it when u get face rolled. if you want the gear put in the time like the rest of us did.

 

But yes haveing teams made based on Valor rank would go along way to help everyone enjoy pvp bettter

 

So because you went through the unfun period of starting 50 PVP, everyone else should? I don't think so. How about Bioware fixes the clear imbalance between gear and skill requirements as far as PVP goes.

[Sweeet]

It's not just your point of view here. It is everywhere that I am getting at.

 

Force people with X armor into ranked or don't allow people to queue without at least Y expertise

Force people with X valor into ranked or, don't allow anyone with y valor or below into ranked

Create seperate queues for PUGs and premades.

 

You don't HAVE to actually make a mechanic to do anything. Things would naturally work out to where if you really wanted to not be mauled, you would still group. Maybe you don't mind; what does that matter to the person mauling you compared to having to go play non-ranked and still maul PUGs? no different. but at least they might get their maulings in on ranked while people who would complain about being mauled could catch more of a break in non-ranked.

 

To be honest at this point I wouldn't mind at all if they allowed solo queueing in Ranked Warzones, just as long as they raise the amount of commendations gained to make it less grindy!

 

I do agree though that yes people should be allowed to play the way they want, but there are limits and I don't think it would do any harm at all forcing people to be sociable and decent to one another. We all know just how bad some people get when hiding anonymously behind their computer... Encouraging good behaviour in this anonymous setting is not a bad thing at all.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Sweeet

[TridusSWTOR]

Yeah you get what 60 ranked comms on the low end for a loss which you can get 100ish normal comms for a win in non ranked...I suck at math but I would say even getting plowed in ranked you still gear up faster.

 

Losing teams can get up to 15-20 MAX comms depending on the play-style of the premade they go against. So if we are going to talk numbers, let's keep the facts straight and not play things up like they are good...because they aren't.

[To-le]

Losing teams can get up to 15-20 MAX comms depending on the play-style of the premade they go against. So if we are going to talk numbers, let's keep the facts straight and not play things up like they are good...because they aren't.

 

The only time I have got 20 coms in a fight was when i loaded into a normal WZ huttball and the other team scored the 6th point. If you get 20 coms in a regular wz and play the whole wz you are bad. Now I hope we are talking about ranked b/c I can imagine a team getting facerolled and getting 20. Lowest I have got personally in a ranked pug is low 40's.

[Dacer]

Some people actually have real life to attend to and can't afford to spend 40+ hours a week running Warzones to get fully geared in a couple of months, if not more - yes it actually takes that long at present. That's over two months playing 40+ hours a week of getting steam-rolled until they can actually start being competitive. Much much longer if you can only spare 15 hours a week.

 

And people wonder why this game has lost 750,000+ subscribers already. Do you want the game to be a complete failure?

 

This right here just shows the gap of casuals vs more 'hardcore' gamers.

 

Fact is... in MMOs you are rewarded for time spent playing.

[cycao]

Losing teams can get up to 15-20 MAX comms depending on the play-style of the premade they go against. So if we are going to talk numbers, let's keep the facts straight and not play things up like they are good...because they aren't.

 

They must have changed something because I have always got more than 20 ranked comms when loosing a ranked match but eh not worth getting into I have not played a ranked game in a while.

[salaryman]

This right here just shows the gap of casuals vs more 'hardcore' gamers.

 

Fact is... in MMOs you are rewarded for time spent playing.

 

Fact is... being unemployed shouldn't be a requirement for playing an MMO.