1.4 Nerfing classes for PVP reasons, impacts PVE.../sigh

[Ahl-Vinn]

http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-class-changes-and-balance-game-update-1.4

 

As seen here, there are a slew of serious nerfs coming to certain professions. Why? Because the PVP aspect of this community is complaining (as they will ALWAYS do, no matter what the situation is) about imbalance.

 

So, to fix it, for the sake of making PVPers happy, they are nerfing PVE skills in the process.

 

Common mistake for MMORPG developers.

 

This was the reason SOE put out the "Combat Upgrade" aka, the CU, which, only second to the NGE, was a huge mistake.

 

Now... what impact is this going to have? Are you going to make the PVP gamers happy? NO! They are just going to see a new class as the FOTM overpowered class and complain about that.

 

Nerf-bat-to-hell sages, and then some other class becomes OP in WZ's...

 

I implore you devs... that if you are going to smash a classes play style, because of imbalance in PVP, that maybe you give some thought to how it is going to impact PVE players.

 

Thanks.

 

It's taken me since the release playing regularly and pvp'ing every day to obtain every last piece of the War Hero gear. I completed it today. I feel I'm likely one such Sage that you speak of, but only because I stack fully in the Healing branch and know how to use and time my shields, 2 heals-over-time, stun and slow, and when to attempt to cast something rather than favor insta-abilities in 2+ vs You fights.

 

Even though I can heal through almost anything not coming from an overkill-loaded DPS'er, it's only because the array of specialization-gear is used wisely in-conjunction with well-timed and experienced decisions. I use Noble Sacrifice *all the time* in PvP, in-combat and out in order to remain knowing when to and when not to use said ability, but have 21.5k hitpoints; continuous healing and typically thousands of hitpoints more than most sages works well to toughen us "squishies" up. Despite all this, I am exceptionally vulnerable to multiple interrupts and am most-easily killed by not being allowed to use any casted abilties. The most-significant Sage damage and healing abilities require casting - something experienced enemies know to continue finding ways to interrupt.

 

/Agree that Sages are just fine.

 

[Ahl-Vinn]

Sorcerers and Sages:

•Force Speed now has a 20-second cooldown (down from 30) for all Consulars and Inquisitors.

•New Sorcerer/Sage ability, Unnatural Preservation/Force Mend: Heal yourself for a moderate amount. Only usable on yourself. Instant, costs no Force, 30-second cooldown. This ability is trainable at level 18.

•Dark Resilience/Valiance: Now additionally increases the healing dealt by Unnatural Preservation/Force Mend by 15% per point.

•Fadeout/Egress has been redesigned. Now causes Force Speed to remove all roots and snares and grant immunity to roots and snares for the duration.

•Polarity Shift/Mental Alacrity now additionally grants immunity to interrupts for the duration. Improved visual FX to demonstrate this effect.

•Backlash/Kinetic Collapse: The incapacitation effect caused by this skill no longer breaks on damage.

 

This seems quite advantageous, really. We sages are getting more-powerful, if anything.

 

No complaints from me, based on this excerpt in the notes. Force Speed should always have been this, /WayToBe to the PvP devs!

 

[AmphysvenaCorp]

I was leveling a Gunnery Commando just now. But discouragement ran across my mind after reading these... 'adjustments'. I will play another class. Thank you.

[Deewe]

Question for you Allison,

 

guess you guys are reading the comments here.

 

Now can you assure us they are actually taken into account and changes will be made accordingly before hitting the PTS?

 

Then once we are finally able to test them, are you giving you enough time to actually make major changes before hitting the live servers?

 

I ask this question because we all know from past experience (in all MMO), the reality check might certainly be totally different from what the designers expected.

[Lord_Skycutter]

Looking at my main character a SI - I lose a 30 meter 4 second stun, most often used to break a special abilty and in its place I get a heal that can only heal me. As a group healer if I am healing myself something is going wrong. That said forcing me to get within 10 meters of the battle will probably mean I wil be taking a lot more of a beating so will need this new heal a lot just hope it's not worthless amounts. As for force speed other that BT on hard mode where I use it for a single boss I dont really see it being much use. The change to Overload, well I dont tend to use it a lot because I try to avoid being beaten on, maybe ths will make it better dont know. All the changes here would only have been put in for PvP. Most boses are immune to stuns anyway on PvE.

 

Wow. I know I would never want to run a PvE or PvP endgame content with you...Seeing as you don't see how simply awesome an instant (that's right, uninterruptable) self-heal is to sage/sorc in both environments.

 

With the nerf to resplendence/force surge, this new skill and the changes to Force Speed puts Sage/Sorc survivability as healers (especially in PvP) back on that map.

 

Please understand the limitations of your class and how big of a buff you healer sage/sorcs are getting before you try to spew vomit all over the devs...

[hinder]

so make some servers for PVE and some for PVP.

 

oh wait!

they did.

ok so make these changes on the PVP servers and don't spoil it for those people that don't want PVP.

 

i don't have any characters on any PVP server.

there is a reason for that.

 

and if you want PVP so much, why are you on a PVE server?

 

it's like going onto the RP server and demanding changes that spoil the RP aspects of the game.

 

PLEASE DON'T DO THIS

 

but it's too late.

[LordArtemis]

Here is what they can do with Force Cloak, Overload and Force Wave.

 

All three abilities would no longer work in PVP.

 

Three new PVP abilities, with the current suggested changes, called Force Cloud, Push and Shockwave, (names are examples, there might be specials already called by these names)

 

And there you go. The abilities only work in PVP, the original PVE abilities are untouched for PVE play and disabled in PVP.

 

Problem solved.

[metalfenix]

Here is what they can do with Force Cloak, Overload and Force Wave.

 

All three abilities would no longer work in PVP.

 

Three new PVP abilities, with the current suggested changes, called Force Cloud, Push and Shockwave, (names are examples, there might be specials already called by these names)

 

And there you go. The abilities only work in PVP, the original PVE abilities are untouched for PVE play and disabled in PVP.

 

Problem solved.

 

I like this idea. A LOT.

[LordArtemis]

I like this idea. A LOT.

 

Its actually not my idea. Its a hybrid of how it is done in most modern MMOs. The trend in the last 5 years has been to avoid changing a talent or special in a way to effect all types of play.

 

There is a very obvious reason for this, and a few that are less obvious. The reason (which WoW learned the hard way) is that if you change a special or talent/ability to balance one type of play it unbalances the other more times than not.

 

You balance for solo PVE, raiding and PVP is affected, so then you balance for PVP and raiding and PVE solo is now effected. Many games had to struggle with this problem for long periods, suffering losses in the population due to frustrations caused by this balance method.

 

WoW was one of the first to begin "altering" how specials or talents would operate in PVP and raids. Other games followed, and now most games on the market either completely disable certain abilities in one type of play or offer specials that operate differently in different play styles.

 

This makes balancing the game much easier....and it was explained to Bioware during beta that this would be an issue and what they should do about it.

 

It seems they continue to ignore that feedback...why is beyond me. All I can say is this game feels like 2004. It's as if it exists in a vacuum.

[bahdasz]

I love the typical devloper/moderator/community relations response to this one. "Well, yeah, that's like.... your opinion, man. We, like, you know, look at all the aspects and only try to kind of screw most of you guys most of the time...there's a lot of ins and a lot of outs, it's really involved, man... blah blah... placate, lie and blah blah some more."

 

The truth is, Allison, you guys might want to look at what you're doing a little harder before you do it, rather than just doing it and waiting to see if people complain. After just over half a year I already see this game doing the same thing as a certain other LucasArts MMO project: too much constant change trying to please one corner of the player-base without asking opinions or thinking about the overall consequences to the rest of the players. It seems to me like you're trying to drive off half of the 1/3 of the players you still have left here.

[PatT]

They compensated for this.

 

 

 

If you need to get distance, you can now pop Force Speed MUCH more often.

 

If you get hit, you get a free, instant self-heal.

 

Force Speed (that thing that you popped to get away), can now remove all roots/snares and make you immune to ensure that you DO get away.

 

You ALSO have a new interrupt immunity, which makes BEING in melee suck less even if you CAN'T get away.

 

You get ALL THAT and you can STILL get everyone off of you with a little footwork and the same knockback button you always used.

 

Skilled Sorcs/Sages are going to be BETTER than they were before. The only people that these changes hurt are those who stubbornly refuse to pick up their game.

 

I can think of one situation off the top of my head that absolutely none of your suggestions help. As a healer, one of my jobs is to press the panels on the Fabricator puzzle.

The stun droid is ALWAYS behind me (because the panel I need to push is ahead of me).

I already have to heal 3 people or 4 on that level, plus be able to push the buttons and knock away the stun droids.

 

RUNNING AWAY IS NOT AN OPTION. The stun droid is BEHIND ME which makes a 180 cone ahead of me USELESS. Self healing? Then I can't hit the button because I'm busy. I can't heal anyone else because I'm busy.

 

THE ONLY THING THAT WORKED WHILE WORKING THE PANEL FOR THE PUZZLE THAT FIRED ON FABRICATOR WAS THE KNOCKBACK. Unless you have some idea I don't, this "improvement" in my class will make it impossible or very much more difficult to get that fabricator puzzle solved quickly which is a hardship on everyone down with the droid.

 

Bad idea with no redeeming options, for this particular position/fight.

 

I know my job. and this will break it.

[OrionSol]

Games change and develop, sometimes for better, sometimes not.

 

I think the problem with MMORPG games changing things like this is, they usually base it on community forum feedback... which is like 5% of the population, if that.

 

Or

 

They change their game based on the complaints of those who left, not those who pay and stay.

 

Both, not good ideas.

 

The way the SHOULD make changes to the game is to set up IN GAME POLLS... run by the devs, that you can only vote in once per account, that pop up when you first log in.

 

They could poll the ENTIRE - existing, player community, and base changes on that... instead of the way it is currently being done.

 

Thank you

[Khevar]

I can think of one situation off the top of my head that absolutely none of your suggestions help. As a healer, one of my jobs is to press the panels on the Fabricator puzzle.

The stun droid is ALWAYS behind me (because the panel I need to push is ahead of me).

I already have to heal 3 people or 4 on that level, plus be able to push the buttons and knock away the stun droids.

 

RUNNING AWAY IS NOT AN OPTION. The stun droid is BEHIND ME which makes a 180 cone ahead of me USELESS. Self healing? Then I can't hit the button because I'm busy. I can't heal anyone else because I'm busy.

 

THE ONLY THING THAT WORKED WHILE WORKING THE PANEL FOR THE PUZZLE THAT FIRED ON FABRICATOR WAS THE KNOCKBACK. Unless you have some idea I don't, this "improvement" in my class will make it impossible or very much more difficult to get that fabricator puzzle solved quickly which is a hardship on everyone down with the droid.

 

Bad idea with no redeeming options, for this particular position/fight.

 

I know my job. and this will break it.

I run the fabricator puzzle myself, but the droid I knock back is always in front of me. I don't follow how this change is going to destroy your strategy. I knock him back as I run up to the panel.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Khevar

[H-aTreD]

I can think of one situation off the top of my head that absolutely none of your suggestions help. As a healer, one of my jobs is to press the panels on the Fabricator puzzle.

The stun droid is ALWAYS behind me (because the panel I need to push is ahead of me).

I already have to heal 3 people or 4 on that level, plus be able to push the buttons and knock away the stun droids.

 

RUNNING AWAY IS NOT AN OPTION. The stun droid is BEHIND ME which makes a 180 cone ahead of me USELESS. Self healing? Then I can't hit the button because I'm busy. I can't heal anyone else because I'm busy.

 

THE ONLY THING THAT WORKED WHILE WORKING THE PANEL FOR THE PUZZLE THAT FIRED ON FABRICATOR WAS THE KNOCKBACK. Unless you have some idea I don't, this "improvement" in my class will make it impossible or very much more difficult to get that fabricator puzzle solved quickly which is a hardship on everyone down with the droid.

 

Bad idea with no redeeming options, for this particular position/fight.

 

I know my job. and this will break it.

 

You're doing it wrong then

 

Your healer below can solo heal for one, you don't need to throw any heals up top unless you're raiding with stupids who eat the droids without their own self heals. Secondly, you might need to turn around to knockback the droid now (/gasp!). I know, so gamebreaking but you know your job and this will break it!

[Russkiier]

Games change and develop, sometimes for better, sometimes not.

 

I think the problem with MMORPG games changing things like this is, they usually base it on community forum feedback... which is like 5% of the population, if that.

 

Or

 

They change their game based on the complaints of those who left, not those who pay and stay.

 

Both, not good ideas.

 

The way the SHOULD make changes to the game is to set up IN GAME POLLS... run by the devs, that you can only vote in once per account, that pop up when you first log in.

 

They could poll the ENTIRE - existing, player community, and base changes on that... instead of the way it is currently being done.

 

Thank you

 

or they might have things called metrics...

[Deewe]

Here is what they can do with Force Cloak, Overload and Force Wave.

 

All three abilities would no longer work in PVP.

 

Three new PVP abilities, with the current suggested changes, called Force Cloud, Push and Shockwave, (names are examples, there might be specials already called by these names)

 

And there you go. The abilities only work in PVP, the original PVE abilities are untouched for PVE play and disabled in PVP.

 

Problem solved.

Even more simple:

 

Separate PvP skills from PvE skills effects.

[NotSevv]

Games change and develop, sometimes for better, sometimes not.

 

I think the problem with MMORPG games changing things like this is, they usually base it on community forum feedback... which is like 5% of the population, if that.

 

Or

 

They change their game based on the complaints of those who left, not those who pay and stay.

 

Both, not good ideas.

 

The way the SHOULD make changes to the game is to set up IN GAME POLLS... run by the devs, that you can only vote in once per account, that pop up when you first log in.

 

They could poll the ENTIRE - existing, player community, and base changes on that... instead of the way it is currently being done.

 

Thank you

 

Because the community in game or out of game knows how to balance classes okay....

[HelinCarnate]

I can think of one situation off the top of my head that absolutely none of your suggestions help. As a healer, one of my jobs is to press the panels on the Fabricator puzzle.

The stun droid is ALWAYS behind me (because the panel I need to push is ahead of me).

I already have to heal 3 people or 4 on that level, plus be able to push the buttons and knock away the stun droids.

 

RUNNING AWAY IS NOT AN OPTION. The stun droid is BEHIND ME which makes a 180 cone ahead of me USELESS. Self healing? Then I can't hit the button because I'm busy. I can't heal anyone else because I'm busy.

 

THE ONLY THING THAT WORKED WHILE WORKING THE PANEL FOR THE PUZZLE THAT FIRED ON FABRICATOR WAS THE KNOCKBACK. Unless you have some idea I don't, this "improvement" in my class will make it impossible or very much more difficult to get that fabricator puzzle solved quickly which is a hardship on everyone down with the droid.

 

Bad idea with no redeeming options, for this particular position/fight.

 

I know my job. and this will break it.

 

If you cannot figure out how to turn around, and hit a button and turn around again, this game may be a bit too complex for you.

[Timias]

If you cannot figure out how to turn around, and hit a button and turn around again, this game may be a bit too complex for you.

 

By all means, forget about the fact the healer on top can't reach the group below to heal, forget about the fact that the healer at the droid can't reach group on top, forget about the stun droids all over the place dropping down aroud you, and forget about enrage timers, you're doing it wrong.

 

The Overload - Force Wave change is 100% benificial. To Marauders and Juggernauts in PvP. How dare you want to make them take 3 seconds to kill you when they can do it in 2 now!

Edited September 9, 2012 by Timias

[liammozz]

why not do what DCUO did and buy your favorite SW characters from the movies and books to use as your PvP character

 

that would save massing up the PvE side of the game

[Elyx]

When they announced the healer nerf in 1.2, some argued "hey, this is subject to change" Well, guess what, it didn't.

If they announce this without having an clear ETA for the actual patch, kinda tells me they are committed to them since they're willing to take the heat in advance.

I fear there will be more, and for same reasons. Again, everybody will get screwed because of "pvp balance".

 

I empathize with your feelings on the subject...It was a big hit. but to be fair to Bio, they did explain it...and just about everyone agreed it was needed, it was simply the intensity of the change that rubbed people raw. and to their credit, they did actually listened, and cut it back. But it seems that in patches after that, things have degraded a bit worse each time.

 

I have a strong feeling the silence is due to all the effort needed to implement f2p. but the lack of feedback on details of even that is leaving many people frustrated. this is the first time for this game that I've taken to hopping to the forums for any news of whats happening. I don't even read the forums much anymore. I just look to see if there's any more news. which there is none. and then i move on...

[BaronV]

If you cannot figure out how to turn around, and hit a button and turn around again, this game may be a bit too complex for you.

 

People who make comments like yours obviously do not play sorcs as your main. It is simply not the play style of sorcs. it is simply not what we use overload/force wave for. And in many scenarios the changes nerf our class to utter uselessness in PvE.

 

You forget that sorcs/sages have the highest aggro of any class

 

You forget that we are extremely squishy

 

You forget that the stupid cone means that when surrounded by mobs (when the tank loses aggro, or when playing solo) we can no longer overload/force wave to blast away enemies; giving us breathing space and a chance to re-control the fight.

 

You forget that as healers their job is to be healing the tank and occasionally the DPS and not yourself (unless the tank is doing something wrong)

 

You forget that as DPS our job is not to be running away but to be dealing damage to bring down the boss before the enrage kicks in.

 

You forget that the stupid cone means that its much much harder to knock people off a bridge or ledge (eg: in voidstar you now have to run IN to the opposing crowd, then behind them, then turn around, then cast overload - all without being stunned/killed and hoping that the people you were targeting are still where you want them to be)

 

You forget healers can no longer cast ints by stunning, while perched up high on a good vantage point

 

ALL of this while still not doing anything to address the issues of multiple stuns/slow resolve buildup of the PvP players!

 

Please don't spout rubbish about stuff that obviously doesn't affect you negatively.

Edited September 10, 2012 by BaronV
typos & forgot some points

[H-aTreD]

People who make comments like yours obviously do not play sorcs as your main. It is simply not the play style of sorcs. it is simply not what we use overload/force wave for. And in many scenarios the changes nerf our class to utter uselessness in PvE.

 

*SNIP*

 

Please don't spout rubbish about stuff that obviously doesn't affect you negatively.

 

I made a comment quite similar to theirs and I play quite a good healing Sorc, thanks. Just because you don't like our answer of just TURN YOUR CAMERA to use your knockback means we don't play a sorc is just an idiocy or "rubbish" as you put it.

[IczerDragon]

.... we never make a change without confidence that it's fun and appropriate in all gameplay modes.

 

Wow, for real?

 

To whom?

[DarthFamine]

If you cannot figure out how to turn around, and hit a button and turn around again, this game may be a bit too complex for you.

 

Unfortunately much like real life

 

it's never that simple.

 

This change is frankly poorly thought out and completely un needed and if you can't comprehend that then perhaps the game is too complex for you as well.