1.4 Nerfing classes for PVP reasons, impacts PVE.../sigh

[Malkavier]

I welcome the Overload change for two reasons:

 

1) In PvP, Sorcs/Sages will now not be able to send every enemy flying over the top ledges when they are trying to score in Huttball, which has been a ridiculous problem and everyone knows it. This makes them consider which enemies to get rid of. This implies some sort of skill, which we know people love claiming they have, but show little evidence of in practice.

 

2) It's an idiot check in PvE. Where YOU the idiot who pulled aggro of all of those NPCs? You get to pay a price now for button-mashing idiocy. This cone effect will be useful during a fight if you're strategically using it to push NPCs over a ledge, or to get them off of your Healer or a beleaguered DPS, but will punish idiots who pull side groups or peel off of the tank.

 

I play a Sorc.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Malkavier

[LordArtemis]

Both wave and stealth are fun iconic class features. Yes, they cause problems in PVP and something has to be done about that. But they should not be fundamentally changed from their current state for the sake of PVP at the expense of the casual PVE base, which is likely the MAJORITY of the current player base.

 

The changes should apply for group and PVP play only. Or different specials should be offered for use in group play, a change to their function in PVP.

 

Both are methods employed by modern MMOs to avoid hurting one game play type for another.

[MrRayen]

Similarly, although stuns that now have a 10-meter range are irrefutably worse, we've taken measures to correct for this loss by adding a few new tools and skills to the affected classes. From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun.

 

What did vanguards get in compensation for losing 30m stun?

[DarthFamine]

I don't have to play these changes on the PTS to understand the impact on my own gameplay. The changes to Overload and Electrocute are going to have a severe negative impact on the way people play those classes.

 

I am a hybrid lightning/madness sorc, level 50, valor 85 so I'm not exactly new to the class. My spec is built around damage and utility, and these changes are going to be fundamental and negative.

 

Specifically, the change from 30 meters to 10 meters for Electrocute is bad from a utility viewpoint. I use Electrocute as an interrupt, to take pressure off teammates, and the like. Being ranged DPS means being able to perform most of my actions AT RANGE. All of the talents that I use are at a 30 meter range now. And yet with the proposed change for me to use a primary utility talent I will have to run in, cast, then run back to keep out of melee range - both in PVE and PVP. This is not only a poor design choice on the designer's part, but it absolutely confirms to me that although they may know mechanically how a class is designed, the designers have no idea stylistically how these classes are played. Fundamentally, I don't need an instant self heal. I have plenty of heal capability already, plus in both PVE specifically and PVP generally I run with a healer. The self heal is superfluous. And the idea I will get the self heal while removing a primary talent's usability is, frankly, indefensible.

 

The changes to Overload are also heavy handed. When a light armor character is getting mobbed in PVP you don't have the time to think, move, turn, Overload. You tend to react instantly, cast Overload (hopefully with Electric Bindings talented), then try to run away for a couple of seconds to get out of range. As it stands the proposed changes are making this character class even more of a pillar hugger. And frankly I don't care if I get a "moderate" self-heal every 30 seconds or so. I'm full aug'd war hero and I'll still get burned down before getting the chance to get through one rotation, much less last long enough to get my free "heal".

 

Again and again I read through the forums looking at the problems players have with their classes, some really intelligently thought out solutions, only to see in the end the developers and designers do something to add to a classes inability to not only survive, but participate. I've watched the decimation of the Bounty Hunter Class and the Operative Class already. Sorcerers already went through this process, to an extent, once - and now it is happening again. If the developers want to come out and categorically state that this is going to be a game for warriors, then fine. Just say so. There is certainly that feeling throughout the forum community.

 

I love this game. I've missed being on one day since it's launch. One. I can't stand seeing the path that it is taking where the developers and designers can't seem to get not only the technical, but stylistic, details right. I am certain that, in the end, like the healer nerf in 1.2 people will find ways around the limitations and shortcomings of poor design choices. My problem is, though, why spend the time sticking your finger in the dike over here while the levee is breaking over there.

 

Like I said, just my two cents worth. Hell, I might actually look forward to the day when everyone rolls a marauder and abandons everything else. Then it will become rocket arena. At least the playing field will finally be level at that point.

 

 

 

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Tuscad]

Yeah because they had no intentions of ever releasing any more styles of speeders...

 

 

Anyways they always say when the patch hits the PTS that they listen to the community for feed back and all notes are subject to change. I would say that 99% of the patch notes do not get changed, pretty much when they put a patch note in you can be almost certain that it will not bet getting changed at least before the patch.

 

I can only think of 1 single time that Bioware has ever listened to the community and that was Jedi Wizard. They probably didn't listen then they probably figured out that the name was terrible amongst themselves.

[Daekarus]

What did vanguards get in compensation for losing 30m stun?

 

As far as we can tell, nothing... we're getting screwed out of one of the only CC abilities we have. I sometimes wonder if it's worth continuing with my Vanguard after the first nerfs. Still pisses me off that mortar volley is next to useless, especially compared with the Sorcerer's lightning storm. Ah well, makes me thankful for alts. Perhaps I'll try the FotM... what is it? I might already have one to 50...

[Comstrike]

SWTOR can't compete as a PvP game, yet they seem obsessed with trying. Another example that Bioware/EA don't get, and can't manage MMORPGs. Likewise, it is depressing that the much hyped new advertisement, is basically a call directly to PvP types.

 

I "hope" this game doesn't continue on the path to global gaming irrelevance. However I expect that likely is going to be the case. There are no indications the game will gain the traction to be more than a modest property in the background of online games and MMORPGs.

 

That said, it remains the only Star Wars fix I can get, until or unless the SWGemu project really, truly, finally gets moving.

[Elysith]

for instance...

 

"Overload and Force Wave have been redesigned. These abilities now knock back all targets within a 15-meter 120-degree cone in front of you. Furthermore, these abilities now knock back all potential targets instantly; they no longer wait for an animation note at the end of the ability animation."

 

This is more commonly used by Sages to get those NPC's "off you BACK" not the ones in front of you per sei.

 

Hell, in pvp, this is used by sages to get Operatives off from CC'ing from behind until you die.

 

Now? Nerfed.

 

That's how I mainly use it too.

 

 

So, I want to make sure I understand this correctly... The biggest gripe is that the AoE Knockback now is a cone instead of a 360 degree AoE?...

 

Seriously? This is the big gripe for PvE? Honestly, stop keyboard turning, use your mouse, rotate mash AoE key, knockback npc.... Why does this seem so complicated? A nerf implies a serious change in functionality.... I dont see how making this an AoE cone is that huge a deal. .....

 

honestly i don't see how this effects pve content as your complaining about. If your pulling aggro now off tanks then them or you are doing something wrong in pve anyway....

 

Unlike the current version the new skill won't allow the Sage to knock back all the enemies surrounding him.

For PvE group content, it will matter less, as normally as a Sage you're not really supposed to get your face gang-bashed.

 

Basically the new version of the skill will be more about pushing one or few selected front targets, than being a skill mean to neutralize all the enemy surrounding you. So it is a change in functionality.

 

When soloing PvE with a Sage, this is a survival OFF YOU BACK (as OrionSol likes to put it) skill to escape being gang-bashed.

 

Personally I don't complain about the change and I think the new skill version will be more interesting when playing in a group. However I can see why players who do a lot of PvE (or PvP) soloing will not like much this version as it will become a weaker and less useful skill in a solo context.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Elysith

[LordArtemis]

Well, its very simple. If sorcs are gimped due to this change I simply will not play that class any longer. It's not a big deal to me because there are plenty of other classes to choose from. I can just delete the toon after cashing in his gear and move on to another.

[Rezakh]

 

While it's true that some changes may be motivated by design requirements in one gameplay mode, we never make a change without confidence that it's fun and appropriate in all gameplay modes.

 

I lol'd really hard at this...You should post this in the healer forums for Commandos/Mercs. Were you even here during 1.2?

 

From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun. Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.

 

Again, say this to healing commandos/mercs. Cause they gave you guys loads of constructive/objective feedback on your healing changes to them. They even gave you numbers which were actually play tested, rather than the one's the devs said they had which were obviously just pulled out of some random orifice. BW Austin has become well known for making up facts then lying that they've been strongly considered/tested so spare us...

 

Are CM's responsible for towing the company line while occasionally stretching the truth for the sake of PR with the community, or is it BW Austin's policy now for you all to just blatantly lie to the community? You have proven on many occasions that you really do not care what feedback the community gives you concerning balance changes so why even respond with garbage like this?

[LordArtemis]

Your internal playtesting and feedback is broken. It always has been. Since beta its misled you to make some of the biggest mistakes in design that you made. Hence your sub loss.

 

This player base, not your "internal playtesting and feedback" will be the ones to listen to if you want to know what to do to actually make your SUBs happy.

 

Unless of course you intend to have your "internal playtesting and feedback" group as the only subs you have. Then you are definitely targeting the right audience with the changes.

[OrionSol]

22 pages deep... and this is BEFORE the damage hits PTS, or Live...

 

I've got a bad feeling about this...

[Darth_Victus]

http://www.swtor.com/blog/developer-update-class-changes-and-balance-game-update-1.4

 

As seen here, there are a slew of serious nerfs coming to certain professions. Why? Because the PVP aspect of this community is complaining (as they will ALWAYS do, no matter what the situation is) about imbalance.

 

So, to fix it, for the sake of making PVPers happy, they are nerfing PVE skills in the process.

 

Common mistake for MMORPG developers.

 

This was the reason SOE put out the "Combat Upgrade" aka, the CU, which, only second to the NGE, was a huge mistake.

 

Now... what impact is this going to have? Are you going to make the PVP gamers happy? NO! They are just going to see a new class as the FOTM overpowered class and complain about that.

 

Nerf-bat-to-hell sages, and then some other class becomes OP in WZ's...

 

I implore you devs... that if you are going to smash a classes play style, because of imbalance in PVP, that maybe you give some thought to how it is going to impact PVE players.

 

Thanks.

 

This is nothing new to MMOs. A PVP balance update will always imbalance PVE somehow and visa versa.

 

Now, I am unsure about what SOE games you been playing, but I did enjoy how they had it set up in EverQuest 2. Each ability would act differently in PVP then in PVE. Thus making balancing there easier. A nerf to the PVP side of the skill did not affect the PVE side.

 

Now of course it has been years since I played it, so I may be remembering it differnetly.

[well]

I think the skills should be separate.I know GW after years did it.I play both.I have fun playing both.I notice a lot of crybabys in PVP but that is because it is the only part I group for the most.It is probably the same with PVE groups.About 95% go out and play and 5 % throw temper tantrums and pout.Anyhow it would be better to adjust the skills as you go to the style of play.I not sure why BW has done this or it maybe something down the road.

[SilentKitty]

I actually quite look forward to the changes to Jedi Sage =) think they will be very handy.

[soneil]

I talked to Senior Designer Austin Peckenpaugh and Senior PvP Designer Rob Hinkle about the concerns that developers allow changes made that primarily affect either PvP or PvE to negatively affect the other part of the game.

 

I'm glad that the devlopers actively avoid changes in one part to affect the other part. I played world of warcraft for many years and I got sick of Blizzard taking measures to 'balance' pvp in ways that adversely affected pve. In fact it was a few particular changes along those lines that gave me my final reasons for quitting that game after patch 4 (I was already not liking the direction that game was taking for a number of reasons).

Thankfully I haven't seen that in SWTOR. I do a bit of casual pvp and I'm nto bad at it, much as I did in wow. But I'm primarily a pve player. That is what I love about this game. The developers don't seem to prioritise any aspect of the game to the detriment of others. Not only is pvp and endgame content fun, but simply questing and levelling new characters is fun without becoming trivial. Something blizzard forgot about.

I do have a few mino gripes about the game such as the frequency of graphical glitches, very long loading screens and a similar things but those are generally technical issues. I think the game design itself with gameplay, story, flashpoint/ops design etc is superb.

[Yogol]

I lol'd really hard at this...You should post this in the healer forums for Commandos/Mercs. Were you even here during 1.2?

 

Ouch... as much as I really, really dislike what they are doing to this game, these kind of personal attacks don't get anyone anywhere.

 

Even though it may be a legitimate question (we can't know anymore because Bioware decided in all it's wisdom to remove the join date on the forum) it's not really a nice question to ask.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Yogol

[Gokkus]

I actually quite look forward to the changes to Jedi Sage =) think they will be very handy.

 

Handy in Hutball, thats for sure. Being able to use force speed more often without having to worry about 30m stuns anymore will make them quite useful.

[Asavrede]

PvP in this game is a footnote at best. It was not designed around it, it does not do it well, and no amount of skill adjustments now will change that.

 

So for the love of God, focus on making the PvE experience better instead. Really I just agree with the OP - making these adjustments solely for PvP is shortsighted and an ultimately misunderstood way of trying to stop the exodus.

[LarryRow]

1.3 was a good patch for pvp. Was it 1.3 or 1.2 where juggs were going to get a 2-sec stun after charge but that got shot down by players because it added too much resolve to the target?

 

That was 1.2. But we'll never know if it was due to our feedback or due to some idiot pvp developer(s) not thinking what the heck they were doing, then waking up in a cold sweat once they realized a new Guardian "buff" would break the game. Still, I want to give them credit for admitting their mistake and fixing it.

 

1.3 saw a big redesign and nerf of Guardian and Shadow tanks. We got a very nice developer blog write-up of why they changed the Shadow, but never any explanation on either of the huge negative-but-objective feedback threads about Guardians. You are still a complete fool if you take Guardian Slash and you have Bioware to thank.

 

I also want to ask Vanguards and Powertechs to please shaddap about their nerf. You guys were OP and you know it. Now you are a melee class with a melee stun (horrors!)

[HarleysRule]

I lol'd really hard at this...You should post this in the healer forums for Commandos/Mercs. Were you even here during 1.2?

 

Again, say this to healing commandos/mercs. Cause they gave you guys loads of constructive/objective feedback on your healing changes to them. They even gave you numbers which were actually play tested, rather than the one's the devs said they had which were obviously just pulled out of some random orifice. BW Austin has become well known for making up facts then lying that they've been strongly considered/tested so spare us...

 

Are CM's responsible for towing the company line while occasionally stretching the truth for the sake of PR with the community, or is it BW Austin's policy now for you all to just blatantly lie to the community? You have proven on many occasions that you really do not care what feedback the community gives you concerning balance changes so why even respond with garbage like this?

 

They didn't listen to tanks about the massive nerfs they got in 1.3, either.

 

Not even going to bother with the PTS anymore.

[LogicalPremise]

I welcome the Overload change for two reasons:

 

1) In PvP, Sorcs/Sages will now not be able to send every enemy flying over the top ledges when they are trying to score in Huttball, which has been a ridiculous problem and everyone knows it. This makes them consider which enemies to get rid of. This implies some sort of skill, which we know people love claiming they have, but show little evidence of in practice.

 

2) It's an idiot check in PvE. Where YOU the idiot who pulled aggro of all of those NPCs? You get to pay a price now for button-mashing idiocy. This cone effect will be useful during a fight if you're strategically using it to push NPCs over a ledge, or to get them off of your Healer or a beleaguered DPS, but will punish idiots who pull side groups or peel off of the tank.

 

I play a Sorc.

 

Great. So now instead of Sorcs being at least useful in Huttball, they are completely worthless in every single game mode. Good luck getting into ranked WZ's.

 

As for your second statement....where do I even begin? Let's compare how often you fight on a ledge to how often stupid mob placements ensures that unless you micromanage your skills and that of your companion you can easily attract trash mobs that you didn't intend to touch, or that in OPs when I get swarmed by trash the DPS and tank didn't pick up after I dropped a big heal I now have zero tools to get them off me without flailing about like a moron.

[SilverBlink]

Overload and Force Wave, for example, now reach 15 meters in front of you. This is almost twice the previous range. The extra reach is quite a bit of fun and quite useful all around.

 

That's a horrible example. I normally used this move when running from people or mobs that were generally behind me.. now its useless. secondly Majority of nerfs have been based on PVP rarely have they been based on PVE. That was Blizzards biggest mistake. Catering to the PVP players and not to the PVE which I'd say is the selling point of this game because of the story.

Edited September 8, 2012 by SilverBlink

[LordArtemis]

The extra yards would probably provide plenty of fun in PVP. It's not difficult for me to see that.

 

It would be no fun at all in PVE. I am surprised that you guys don't seem to have any notion of this.

[wainot-keel]

The extra yards would probably provide plenty of fun in PVP. It's not difficult for me to see that.

 

It would be no fun at all in PVE. I am surprised that you guys don't seem to have any notion of this.

 

Well, that's kinda the point of this thread. They change the classes because of PvP. What happens in PvE, they don't seem to care.