1.4 Nerfing classes for PVP reasons, impacts PVE.../sigh

[liammozz]

I want to hit all the targets around me, that's the whole point, it stops all enemies AROUND ME from attacking me for a couple of seconds. Why do you keep making this game less fun? You lot are amazingly good at taking what the players want and implementing the complete opposite. I know, why don't you make the ability damage the player as well while you're at it..

 

because you kept pissing off the tanks in PvE with it

[NotSevv]

Still just wow.... I have never seen a buff be cried about more bravo Sorcs bravo...

[Daekarus]

So what is my Vanguard Tank getting in place of Cryo Grenade's useful range that will compensate for her already-poor control of the battlefield? Cryo is the only real CC we've got, and now it's far less useful. Where is the balancing buff you implied should be there? Why not give Mercs/Commandos a 20m interrupt and leave Cryo the same?

[NotSevv]

So what is my Vanguard Tank getting in place of Cryo Grenade's useful range that will compensate for her already-poor control of the battlefield? Cryo is the only real CC we've got, and now it's far less useful. Where is the balancing buff you implied should be there? Why not give Mercs/Commandos a 20m interrupt and leave Cryo the same?

 

Cyro's range being reduced doesn't hurt your control of the battlefield one bit... well going off the assumption one knows how to use their class to the maximum potential.

[Talimar]

because you kept pissing off the tanks in PvE with it

 

I don't use it in a group unless that's the plan, such as when manning the towers of hanoi control in KP HM, I need to get those probe droids off me. Other than that, I use it solo a lot.

[liammozz]

I don't use it in a group unless that's the plan, such as when manning the towers of hanoi control in KP HM, I need to get those probe droids off me. Other than that, I use it solo a lot.

 

sorry i should of worded that better it wasn't aimed at you, it was meant in general

[Talimar]

Still just wow.... I have never seen a buff be cried about more bravo Sorcs bravo...

 

Buffs, like losing 240° of protection and no longer being able to stun from 30m where we healers are safe, but instead now have to run into melee range just to use it making it completely useless? (Not to mention giving it a 2s cast time, making it useless as an interrupt and just well, completely useless combined with the range change).

 

I don't hear any real complaints about the self heal or force speed changes, except why we are getting them, as "compensation" for stupid changes.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Talimar

[Talimar]

sorry i should of worded that better it wasn't aimed at you, it was meant in general

 

I don't doubt there are loads of people that annoy tanks with it, but that's a reason not to group with those individuals, not to punish the rest of us!

[Deewe]

I talked to Senior Designer Austin Peckenpaugh and Senior PvP Designer Rob Hinkle about the concerns that developers allow changes made that primarily affect either PvP or PvE to negatively affect the other part of the game.

 

While it's true that some changes may be motivated by design requirements in one gameplay mode, we never make a change without confidence that it's fun and appropriate in all gameplay modes. We think it's natural for players to think of the game as two different sub-games and to dislike changes made for a sub-game they don't participate in, but that mindset couldn't be further from the case for us. We only ever look at the game as a complete package, and it's always our goal to deliver one cohesive and coherent gameplay experience. If, during our playtesting, we find that one experience suffers at the cost of another, we revisit our design goals and our options and reassess our approach.

 

Overload and Force Wave, for example, now reach 15 meters in front of you. This is almost twice the previous range. The extra reach is quite a bit of fun and quite useful all around. Similarly, although stuns that now have a 10-meter range are irrefutably worse, we've taken measures to correct for this loss by adding a few new tools and skills to the affected classes. From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun. Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.

Your solution doesn't work, if you really want to make PvP and PvE work you have to:

• Separate PvE and PvP skills effects
  
• Add dual (if not more) specs
  

 

It's not by "nerfing" a skill for say PvE or PvP that you're going to make the other part of the game balanced ever.

And BTW look at RIFT that's removing gear impact on PvP...

[Daekarus]

Cyro's range being reduced doesn't hurt your control of the battlefield one bit... well going off the assumption one knows how to use their class to the maximum potential.

 

Well call me a noob, but I thought the ability to pull the healer's bacon out of the fire without leaving the main mob (and without losing aggro) was useful. Obviously, I'm just not uber enough to do it solely with the power of my awesomeness like you are...

 

Tell me, oh tank of maximum potential... how would you duplicate the functionality (that is, temporarily reducing incoming dps of far-away mobs or allowing a distant groupmate a few seconds to escape) that cryo offered with a 30m range?

 

Oh wait... don't tell me you don't use Cryo for that now. That would be embarrassing, a tank with no emergency management skills. I can't wait to hear what your maximum potential strategy is...

Edited September 6, 2012 by Daekarus

[Cakellene]

because you kept pissing off the tanks in PvE with it

 

I don't use it in a group, I use it for staying alive in solo play.

[H-aTreD]

I don't use it in a group, I use it for staying alive in solo play.

 

Cause this game is SO HARD you need a 360° knockback to stay alive against NPCs?

 

Are we playing the same game? Maybe you're trying to solo ECHM, in which case a 360° knockback wouldn't matter.

[liammozz]

Cause this game is SO HARD you need a 360° knockback to stay alive against NPCs?

 

Are we playing the same game? Maybe you're trying to solo ECHM, in which case a 360° knockback wouldn't matter.

 

my sith sorc does this when am in trouble bubble sprint leave companion to die i get away works every time KB not needed at all

Edited September 6, 2012 by liammozz

[H-aTreD]

my sith sorc does this when am in trouble bubble sprint leave companion to die i get away works every time KB not needed at all

 

Common sense has no room here on the TOR forums. Your tactic works and is therefor, not allowed to be discussed in this thread. Move along, nothing to see here. /sarcasm

[NotSevv]

Well call me a noob, but I thought the ability to pull the healer's bacon out of the fire without leaving the main mob (and without losing aggro) was useful. Obviously, I'm just not uber enough to do it solely with the power of my awesomeness like you are...

 

Tell me, oh tank of maximum potential... how would you duplicate the functionality (that is, temporarily reducing incoming dps of far-away mobs or allowing a distant groupmate a few seconds to escape) that cryo offered with a 30m range?

 

Oh wait... don't tell me you don't use Cryo for that now. That would be embarrassing, a tank with no emergency management skills. I can't wait to hear what your maximum potential strategy is...

 

If your healer is pulling mobs off you one of two things is happening 1) You're bad at tanking 2) Your healer is being a dick possibly didn't spec properly oh and isn't intelligent enough to use the hate shreds.

 

Edit: Not to mention the fact of basic mechanics of SWTOR were built so tank friendly with all the hate shreds being on a 45 sec cool down that if people aren't intelligent enough to use them well then you understand the type of people you're playing with.

Edited September 6, 2012 by NotSevv

[Roechacca]

Yes, that would be nice.

 

PvP is a bad focus for MMOs. PvE should be prioritised.

 

It was that very line of thinking that caused the mass exodus of PvP players that lead to the new Free To Play option here in record MMO history. The days of PvE players being the majority has long died out since consoles attached to the internet. TOR is learning a painful lesson for Ilum and from the PvP community.

 

Back on topic, I hate nerfs but its the norm now.

[Cakellene]

Cause this game is SO HARD you need a 360° knockback to stay alive against NPCs?

 

Are we playing the same game? Maybe you're trying to solo ECHM, in which case a 360° knockback wouldn't matter.

 

I'm talking about just leveling up. The only time I try and solo a FP is after it goes grey.

[Daekarus]

If your healer is pulling mobs off you one of two things is happening 1) You're bad at tanking 2) Your healer is being a dick possibly didn't spec properly oh and isn't intelligent enough to use the hate shreds.

 

Edit: Not to mention the fact of basic mechanics of SWTOR were built so tank friendly with all the hate shreds being on a 45 sec cool down that if people aren't intelligent enough to use them well then you understand the type of people you're playing with.

 

So your answer is that everybody sucks at their respective jobs if an emergency measure is needed? Where are these perfect players you must be grouping with? As far as having healers and dps pull mobs off occasionally, OF COURSE that happens. Do you think a half-geared tank can always keep up with somebody in full campaign gear? Reality-check, not everybody has hard-mode Ops on farm. Your answer is nothing but to say "if you have emergency moments you suck and your group sucks"... which is obviously untrue. Everybody has oh-$hit moments. Ever heard of an add?

Edited September 6, 2012 by Daekarus

[NotSevv]

So your answer is that everybody sucks at their respective jobs if an emergency measure is needed? Where are these perfect players you must be grouping with? As far as having healers and dps pull mobs off occasionally, OF COURSE that happens. Do you think a half-geared tank can always keep up with somebody in full campaign gear? Reality-check, not everybody has hard-mode Ops on farm. Your answer is nothing but to say "if you have emergency moments you suck and your group sucks"... which is obviously untrue. Everybody has oh-$hit moments. Ever heard of an add?

 

You brought up more a regular part of game play then an oh **** moment, adapting to changes is part of anyone's game play. So if the issue was a common problem then those issues would be what I was stating. Any good mmo player knows that games are ever changing and so do your strategies.

[Daekarus]

You brought up more a regular part of game play then an oh **** moment, adapting to changes is part of anyone's game play. So if the issue was a common problem then those issues would be what I was stating. Any good mmo player knows that games are ever changing and so do your strategies.

 

Yes, they're ever-changing... that's not up for debate. Your assertion was that the decreased range of Cryo will not affect the ability of Vanguards to control circumstances on the battlefield, which you have given no evidence to support. Lest we forget, my original statement was that Allison seems to have spoken in error when she asserted that the nerf changes were all balanced by buffs to compensate. This is patently false in the case of the Vanguard and Powertech, since there are no buffs to them to compensate for the loss of range on Cryo.

[OrionSol]

Yes, they're ever-changing... that's not up for debate. Your assertion was that the decreased range of Cryo will not affect the ability of Vanguards to control circumstances on the battlefield, which you have given no evidence to support. Lest we forget, my original statement was that Allison seems to have spoken in error when she asserted that the nerf changes were all balanced by buffs to compensate. This is patently false in the case of the Vanguard and Powertech, since there are no buffs to them to compensate for the loss of range on Cryo.

 

Here here

[NotSevv]

Yes, they're ever-changing... that's not up for debate. Your assertion was that the decreased range of Cryo will not affect the ability of Vanguards to control circumstances on the battlefield, which you have given no evidence to support. Lest we forget, my original statement was that Allison seems to have spoken in error when she asserted that the nerf changes were all balanced by buffs to compensate. This is patently false in the case of the Vanguard and Powertech, since there are no buffs to them to compensate for the loss of range on Cryo.

 

From the patch:

Mercenaries and Commandos now have a 30-meter interrupt, Disabling Shot. This ability interrupts the target's current action and prevents that ability from being used for the next 4 seconds. This ability can be trained at level 18.

 

So you lose the range of cyro for your "emergency" links, or people being dumb with threat, etc. Tho now you have the ability to be useful with interupts a sure loss to compensate for "control of a battleground".

 

Afterburners/Concussive Force: Rocket Punch/Stockstrike now immobilizes the target for 4 seconds instead of knocking it back. Damage caused after 2 seconds ends the effect. The knockback previously caused by this skill generated enough Resolve that it was actually detrimental to the Mercenary/Commando’s ability to further escape the attacker.

 

Probably a bigger pvp change then pve.

 

So no they didn't do anything to help in your loss of 20 meters on your cyro, just made it so you can be more useful.

 

Mind you the whole point of this thread is a player blaming PVP for changes, I will give you Rocket Punch/Stockstrike as a PVP change, tho getting an interrupt was the need for the class to have one in both areas of gameplay. Again if anyone blames the sorc/sage healing nerf on PVP they obviously don't know how OP sorc/sage healers were in PVE lol.

Edited September 6, 2012 by NotSevv

[dscount]

I have read the notes and feedback from everyone.

 

This is 100% STUPID!! Let's take away a key element in the PVE that gives someone an advantage in PVP? So how about we just NERF it when in PVP then? Doing "BALANCING" for PVP that affects PVE really doesn't make sense. Implement on the PVP servers then and leave our PVE servers alone.

 

I'm sorry.. I DISAGREE with this and will be extremely pissed off if this actually goes live. I don't want 120 degrees, I want 360 degress to knock back the swarm of mobs all over me. I don't know if you play the game much DEV TEAM, but MOB's tend to CIRCLE around you. Quick knock back and you have enough time to drop an AOE.

 

MY PVE (Not PVP) GAME PLAY will SUCK MORE if this happens. Period.. complaint logged and when I UNSUB I will be sure to add this to the comments section in the list of "Stupid Nerf's made".

[NotSevv]

I have read the notes and feedback from everyone.

 

This is 100% STUPID!! Let's take away a key element in the PVE that gives someone an advantage in PVP? So how about we just NERF it when in PVP then? Doing "BALANCING" for PVP that affects PVE really doesn't make sense. Implement on the PVP servers then and leave our PVE servers alone.

 

I'm sorry.. I DISAGREE with this and will be extremely pissed off if this actually goes live. I don't want 120 degrees, I want 360 degress to knock back the swarm of mobs all over me. I don't know if you play the game much DEV TEAM, but MOB's tend to CIRCLE around you. Quick knock back and you have enough time to drop an AOE.

 

MY PVE (Not PVP) GAME PLAY will SUCK MORE if this happens. Period.. complaint logged and when I UNSUB I will be sure to add this to the comments section in the list of "Stupid Nerf's made".

 

Sorry to burst your bubble but if your soloing as say a sorc or sage if you take like 2 steps backwards they will pool infront of you and bam! they just traveled farther away giving you more time to cast an aoe, not to mention you have a 20 sec cd on force speed that now makes you untouchable by movement impairing effects. This has just destroyed your game play so much....

[EvilCoatrack]

I have read the notes and feedback from everyone.

 

This is 100% STUPID!! Let's take away a key element in the PVE that gives someone an advantage in PVP? So how about we just NERF it when in PVP then? Doing "BALANCING" for PVP that affects PVE really doesn't make sense. Implement on the PVP servers then and leave our PVE servers alone.

 

I'm sorry.. I DISAGREE with this and will be extremely pissed off if this actually goes live. I don't want 120 degrees, I want 360 degress to knock back the swarm of mobs all over me. I don't know if you play the game much DEV TEAM, but MOB's tend to CIRCLE around you. Quick knock back and you have enough time to drop an AOE.

 

MY PVE (Not PVP) GAME PLAY will SUCK MORE if this happens. Period.. complaint logged and when I UNSUB I will be sure to add this to the comments section in the list of "Stupid Nerf's made".

 

You can accomplish the exact same thing :

 

1. Run / Force Speed Forward
   
2. Jump, turn around quickly (or just turn around quickly)
   
3. ????
   
4. Profit.
   

 

(HINT: Step 3 is knockback)

 

OR:

 

1. Backpedal a couple meters (S-key champions unite!)
   
2. ????
   
3. Profit.
   

 

They removed the delay on the knockback as well. So you can use the time that would have otherwise been delay to instead position yourself for the actual knockback.

 

I know I'm not going to change the minds of the people who are upset by this (because, honestly, reason cannot win over irrationality incarnate).

 

HOWEVER, by itself, this "knockback nerf" is not a big deal AT ALL for ANY type of play. In PvE, if you pull aggro on a mob, you're already facing the mob anyway, chief. In PvP, it gave too much win for too little skill (for those complaining, play a class WITHOUT a knockback in Huttball and tell me you think blanket aoe knocbacks are fine). And in the hands of a good PvPer, a conal knocback with a 15-meter range is going to be more useful in objective-based gaming anyway (congrats, you just got longer range on your knocback!).

 

I hate to say it, but this is only a nerf if you are a bad player.

Edited September 6, 2012 by EvilCoatrack