1.4 Scrapper Changes

[agsyjuco]

Scoundrels and Operatives:

 

•Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen now has a 2-minute cooldown.

 

•Energy Screen has been renamed to Ghost. Fight or Flight/Ghost: Now this skill finishes the cooldown on Sneak when you exit stealth mode. Furthermore, this skill allows Sneak to be used out of stealth mode, increasing movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. This skill still removes the healing done and healing received penalty caused by Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen.

 

•Flee the Scene/Advanced Cloaking now additionally reduces the cooldown of Sneak by 7.5 seconds per point. Now reduces the cooldown of Disappearing Act/Cloaking Screen by 15 seconds per point (down from 30 seconds per point).

 

I see a gap-closer, and more opportunities to re-enter stealth. I'm one happy camper!

 

I just hope they fix the issues that cause you to stay in combat.

[Repulsionas]

that's nice ,but i want to see more Scrapper/Concealment tweaks in dps ,etc .

[agsyjuco]

I'm hoping for damage boosts as well. I'm not ruling out the possibility since the post focused on general game mechanic changes - i.e. resolve, crowd control and stealth.

 

I guess we'll have to wait and see...

[Repulsionas]

yeah , let's hope for dps boost for concealment/scrapper , would we awesome

[Chaoskyx]

No changes for PvE DPS and no changes to Dirty Fighting.

 

I am disappoint.

[Haystak]

I so wanted to see a leap that ended with shootfirst. I will settle for a speed boost. 50% for six seconds...hmmm...wonder how that will pan out against what other classes have for speed boosts.

[FourPawnBenoni]

•Humbling Strike/Magnetism is a new 1-point skill. Causes the target of your Spinning Kick/Spike to be slowed by 70% for 3 seconds when the knockdown effect ends.

 

We need something like this if we don't get dps boost.

[jackrunip]

I foresee epic Han Solo moments coming.

 

*Spots target 20 meters away*

 

*Target begins to run away*

 

*Pop out of stealth and trigger SNEAK!*

 

*Commence Death-Star-Stormtrooper-Chase yell*

 

*Catch up with target as he finds his friends*

 

* Disappearing Act, pop out of stealth, reset sneak timer, use the already present 50% speed boost to run away*

 

*Commence Death-Star-Stormtrooper-RUN AWAY! yell*

 

*6 seconds is up, trigger STEALTH!*

 

*Run away some more*

 

 

Assuming that they don't remove the 50% speed boost from using Disappearing Act of course.

[audiorage]

After playing DPS scrapper for about a week ( have about half war hero brought over from another char via legacy items) their DPS does not need to be adjusted. If you think DPS is lacking ensure your using sabotage charge and the correct rotation/gear set. I am actually in utter amazement that this class gets to much hate for being under-powered as i consistently open on people for 4-5k following by 2 3500-4k+ hits with backblast and sabotage charge. Additionally their stun lock is fantastic.

 

In terms of 1.4, i think the changes to disappearing act are just the tweak the class needed.

[Daiyukie]

More than what I expected, the change to Sneak is godly. 30 seconds reduction on Vanish time is meh, the ideal would have been a short little Vanish that allows gap-closing and extra Shoot Firsts. It's actually a buff to the healing Scoundrels, since it's a base CD reduction and Scrapper-specific cooldown nerf (15 seconds per point reduction down from 30 seconds per point to 1.5 minutes for Scrapper, 2 minutes for Sawbones). Not exactly what I expected.. should just buff the Scrapper talent to 45 seconds per point.

[FourPawnBenoni]

After playing DPS scrapper for about a week ( have about half war hero brought over from another char via legacy items) their DPS does not need to be adjusted. If you think DPS is lacking ensure your using sabotage charge and the correct rotation/gear set. I am actually in utter amazement that this class gets to much hate for being under-powered as i consistently open on people for 4-5k following by 2 3500-4k+ hits with backblast and sabotage charge. Additionally their stun lock is fantastic.

 

In terms of 1.4, i think the changes to disappearing act are just the tweak the class needed.

 

Thanks for the feedback when you attack players in recruit gear.

[Daiyukie]

Thanks for the feedback when you attack players in recruit gear.

 

Mid 4k's is what you should expect on light armor, ~3.8k on Medium and variable on heavy armor, since it depends on whether you're hitting a tank or not. 4k crits ARE the norm at WH vs WH hitting a Sorc, but lower is of course seen, into the medium-armor range damages even, but since there's no way to tell if that Shadow has the +30% armor trait or not, it's hard to gauge without controlled testing.

 

You develop a feel for your targets based on the numbers you're used to seeing and those are perfectly normal, however. You'll get higher, generally 5k+ on Recruit and PvE or a mix thereof.

[FourPawnBenoni]

Mid 4k's is what you should expect on light armor, ~3.8k on Medium and variable on heavy armor, since it depends on whether you're hitting a tank or not. 4k crits ARE the norm at WH vs WH hitting a Sorc, but lower is of course seen, into the medium-armor range damages even, but since there's no way to tell if that Shadow has the +30% armor trait or not, it's hard to gauge without controlled testing.

 

You develop a feel for your targets based on the numbers you're used to seeing and those are perfectly normal, however. You'll get higher, generally 5k+ on Recruit and PvE or a mix thereof.

 

Yeah our class is stuck roaming the war zone looking for unbubbled light armor players or unstealthed medium armor players. Please post a video where you take out a Pyrotech one on one where he was able to stun you back after your shoot first as most decent players do.

[agsyjuco]

30 seconds reduction on Vanish time is meh, the ideal would have been a short little Vanish that allows gap-closing and extra Shoot Firsts.

 

I agree that a short duration stealth would have been better, but the 30 sec reduction will at least allow us to be less conservative with the use of Disappearing Act - giving us more opportunities to use it both offensively and defensively. I guess scrappers have been ignored for so long that I'm happy with whatever buffs we get.

 

All I'm looking for at this point is confirmation that they've fixed the issues that keep you in combat and prevent re-stealth, even after you've eliminated your target. If we can get that, I may actually stop whining *gasp*

[audiorage]

Thanks for the feedback when you attack players in recruit gear.

 

lol reading this post and your others, you're clearly terrible at this class. You should come back when you can beat a PT 1v1. Also refer to the direct post below yours for #'s response.

[Shoogli]

Fight or Flight/Ghost: Now this skill finishes the cooldown on Sneak when you exit stealth mode. Furthermore, this skill allows Sneak to be used out of stealth mode, increasing movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

 

If this change makes it live the way I understand it then it would be really nice for us scrappers.

 

HOWEVER, I'm always suspicious about most dev and/or tooltip wording and I would like to make sure I understand everything well :

 

 

1) Do we get to keep the current pre 1.4 6s 50% bonus sprint on disapearing act ?

(making it what ? like 120-130% run speed anyway since we're in stealth, sorry for my bad math, you see what I mean...)

 

2) Does the sneak *second* 6s 50% bonus sprint also work while in stealth or only while out of stealth ?

(see wording in the quote above, particularly that part "this skill allows Sneak to be used out of stealth mode, increasing movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.")

 

The way i'd understand it "positively" is we get to do the following during a fight :

 

 

Disapearing act = 6s of "130%" speed

at the end of that : sneak while still in stealth for another 6s of "130%" speed

followed by exiting stealth (thus resetting sneak) and getting another 6s of 150% speed by using sneak again.

 

 

But the way it's worded, we might not have the speed boost while stealthed.

 

See what I mean ?

Edited September 5, 2012 by Shoogli

[MimicUnleashed]

that's nice ,but i want to see more Scrapper/Concealment tweaks in dps ,etc .

 

The only reason the DPS is not getting increased, I honestly believe, is because of the type of most of the damage. Tech. Ignores armor, dodge, shields ect... they hard capped the damage with an iron fist for a reason. PvP being that reason. If they'd move the damage to another type I'm more than sure DPS would increase. I know it sounds weird, but with the damage being tech I'm sure they're hard-capping how much damage they allow, not how much damage gear grants.

[Coldin]

The only reason the DPS is not getting increased, I honestly believe, is because of the type of most of the damage. Tech. Ignores armor, dodge, shields ect... they hard capped the damage with an iron fist for a reason. PvP being that reason. If they'd move the damage to another type I'm more than sure DPS would increase. I know it sounds weird, but with the damage being tech I'm sure they're hard-capping how much damage they allow, not how much damage gear grants.

 

Umm, Tech only ignores Shields and Defense (I'm not sure on that either actually). Armor still reduces that damage. The only damage that Armor doesn't reduce are Internal and Elemental damage, burns and bleed damage.

[audiorage]

If this change makes it live the way I understand it then it would be really nice for us scrappers.

 

HOWEVER, I'm always suspicious about most dev and/or tooltip wording and I would like to make sure I understand everything well :

 

 

1) Do we get to keep the current pre 1.4 6s 50% bonus sprint on disapearing act ?

(making it what ? like 120-130% run speed anyway since we're in stealth, sorry for my bad math, you see what I mean...)

 

2) Does the sneak *second* 6s 50% bonus sprint also work while in stealth or only while out of stealth ?

(see wording in the quote above, particularly that part "this skill allows Sneak to be used out of stealth mode, increasing movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.")

 

The way i'd understand it "positively" is we get to do the following during a fight :

 

 

Disapearing act = 6s of "130%" speed

at the end of that : sneak while still in stealth for another 6s of "130%" speed

followed by exiting stealth (thus resetting sneak) and getting another 6s of 150% speed by using sneak again.

 

 

But the way it's worded, we might not have the speed boost while stealthed.

 

See what I mean ?

 

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't stack. I interpret it as: It can be used inside or outside of stealth, however i assume you don't get the stealth bonus outside of stealth (duh) i suppose you could stack sneak and disappearing act together for a mass increase of speed for a short while. This seems to be intended so scoundrels can get away and/or chase down sorcs with this new change (stun locking them is no longer an option) I play sage also and i can tell you that their sprint does in fact increase your current speed, even if you have transcendence and speed bubble up. I don't see any reason it's wouldn't stack further. Imagine disappearing act + sneak + WZ speed buff.

 

In short Sneak is now a much needed sprint.

[Shoogli]

I don't think speed will stack at all, if you use sneak while still on the speed boost of disapearing act I really don't think you'll get faster, you will just clip/overlap it and loose on speed uptime.

And that's fine with me, usually in this game speed boosts don't stack. I could be wrong though, but that's not my current worry.

 

The only thing I'm interrested in is the stacking of time length on our future different speed boosts, as per the questions I asked in my previous post :

 

 

1) Do we get to keep the current pre 1.4 6s 50% bonus sprint on disapearing act ?

(making it what ? like 120-130% run speed anyway since we're in stealth, sorry for my bad math, you see what I mean...)

 

2) Does the sneak *second* 6s 50% bonus sprint also work while in stealth or only while out of stealth ?

(see wording in the quote above, particularly that part "this skill allows Sneak to be used out of stealth mode, increasing movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.")

Edited September 6, 2012 by Shoogli

[audiorage]

I don't think speed will stack at all, if you use sneak while still on the speed boost of disapearing act I really don't think you'll get faster, you will just clip/overlap it and loose on speed uptime.

And that's fine with me, usually in this game speed boosts don't stack. I could be wrong though, but that's not my current worry.

 

The only thing I'm interrested in is the stacking of time length on our future different speed boosts, as per the questions I asked in my previous post :

 

Sneak's original purpose is to increase stealth level while in stealth, removing this function would be pretty bad, but I wouldn't put it past them. I get that your asking if you can 50% Sneak 25% Disappearing Act 50% Sneak since it finishes the cooldown. I don't think anyone can realistically answer that question given the current information presented to us. We'll have to wait for full patch notes, and even then might not get actual confirmation till 1.4 is on the PTS.

[Theagg]

It's an improvement for Scoundrels/Ops but as one of the stealth classes goes (the other being shadow/assassin) I still feel we are being short changed in comparison to those other two when it comes to this round of buffs.

 

If I read the developer notes right, they are getting a far more juicy package than us, especially when it comes to melee. They get several buffs that both increase damage dealt and reduce damage taken. We get no such buffs. We get our 50% speed boost, they get a 70% slow effect.

 

So my gut feeling would be, tough as Scrapper vs Assassin now is, it will get even more difficult for us..damn !!

Edited September 7, 2012 by Theagg

[Mordeguy]

It's an improvement for Scoundrels/Ops but as one of the stealth classes goes (the other being shadow/assassin) I still feel we are being short changed in comparison to those other two when it comes to this round of buffs.

 

If I read the developer notes right, they are getting a far more juicy package than us, especially when it comes to melee. They get several buffs that both increase damage dealt and reduce damage taken. We get no such buffs. We get our 50% speed boost, they get a 70% slow effect.

 

So my gut feeling would be, tough as Scrapper vs Assassin now is, it will get even more difficult for us..damn !!

 

Don't get caught comparing the 2 too much just because they are both stealth. They play differently, even if the goal is the same (burst people down). They are not the only ones designed to do this, they just both happen to use stealth. The two classes have entirely different feels and ways to accomplish things. The only real similarities are stealth and "behind the target" attacks.

 

The reason they both got looked at was because they were not very effective when stealth wasn't available. Which was a mechanic flaw on BWs part, making stealth very difficult to get into on a consistent rate in pvp. Like an earlier poster said, scoundrels do quite well in the damage department...too many people confuse the damage numbers they see at the end of a game with effective damage. In some cases, classes are dropping people fast and showing off big numbers at the end like a PT/vanguard. In others, you see huge numbers but they may not have been all that good at killing people. Scoundrels can top charts, I've seen it, but they take people out before a healer can react and then go back into hiding if all goes well, so they do damage its just very focused and happens quick which leads to smaller totals at the end of a game. Lots of people though have trouble staying on a target to be able to do that damage, and so they feel weak because of that and the lower numbers at the end than some classes. This should help a lot. People will feel more effective being able to catch up to someone out of stealth and deal more damage. The class needed some help but has been underrated by people who just aren't happy with it. This is a step in the right direction even if it's not quite enough yet.

 

A lot of scoundrels also ignore their toolset and only seem to care about getting off backblast and shoot first, but that's a conversation for another time :].

Edited September 8, 2012 by Mordeguy

[thendrix]

I am surprised that so many scrapper scoundrels seem to be very excited about this rather small change to the class which still does not address the dps issues that are currently arising during ranked pvp and end game pve. Addressing the lack of a jump or movement increase is definitely something that has been needed within the class, but I still am not convinced this will solve much of what has been broken in the class.

 

It was mentioned earlier that the single target dps of the scrapper is underrated, and I completely agree. However, these abilities are contained within a very very small rotation of burst damage. There still needs to be a fix which addresses sustaining damage.

 

I am happy to know that I we will be able to boost our speed, but this update in noway "fixes" the rather inane nerfs to the class. Previous to 1.2 it was incredibly easy to burst many classes down way too fast within a simple rotation, which needed to be addressed for game play mechanics. However, as the dps was taken from burst abilities it still needs to be spread into separate abilities.

 

I do not believe that these very simple changes will make a scrapper scoundrel any more attractive to a RWZ squad as the dps still does not stack up to anything very impressive. Being able to escape quickly may help with the constant focus brought onto a class which is easily focused down, but scrappers still need a more adaptable skill set. BW needs to get creative on how to boost scrapper dps numbers without creating the ***** storm that forced previous nerfs. It is exhausting to constantly see other dps classes produce numbers that are consistently larger than was a scrapper can produce.

 

That being said, I will always play the scrapper skill tree because I find it enjoyable even though it still appears to be broken. I have been playing mmos for so long that I will play a class which I find fun rather than overpowered.

[kuey]

I see a gap-closer, and more opportunities to re-enter stealth. I'm one happy camper!

 

I just hope they fix the issues that cause you to stay in combat.

 

Glad someone is happy. I'm glad we got something but considering BW's reasoning behind the changes and how they completely failed to achieve anything of the sort, I'm more along the lines of disappointed. Especially since I know BW is prob not going to touch the class again rather than admit they don't have a clue what they're doing and revisit the changes they made.

 

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, BW brought these changes about in order to increase our viability in group gameplay as opposed to the lone wolf gameplay dps scoundrels currently enjoy. All these current changes do is to further increase our lone wolf gameplay whilst having very little group gameplay impact. Nothing in these changes makes us any more tempting as a pick in PvE and PvP groups. Whilst I believe we contribute towards groups, I still believe what we provide is comparatively far inferior to what other classes can provide, esp since our stealth counterparts just received a dps buff (their burst is still not as good as ours, but their sustained is far superior) as well as a significant survivability boost (they're now well and truly above us in that regard).

 

As for the actual changes...

 

More re-stealth? Great, apart from the fact that in major group gameplay restealth is a very conditional move that requires you to be free of DoTs and avoid AoE skills (gonna be fun now with the 15m ranged force wave, whilst that change sucks for their class, it also sucks for us who try to run around in stealth).

 

50% faster movement OOS is great, but what would have truly given it value as a gap closer would be giving it the same effect as sprint on a shadow, not speed wise, but in terms of breaking snares and being immune to them for the duration. As it is we still have no way to counter the multitude of snares that exist in this game. 50% movement bonus is great, cept that in most group gameplay situations you're almost constantly being under at least 1 snare effect.

 

As a lonewolf class, we definitely excel, as for group gameplay, we still lacking.

 

Also for those saying our damage is fine... Personally I play a Scoundrel healer who occasionally switches over to dps when I get tired of my masochism. As it is now, operative DPS specs are hardly a concern for me, the only other dps classes I shrug off more are DPS assassins and Sorcs. Comparative damage output wise the rest are seriously out of their league. People only ever bring us along to PvP for healing or support roles. In PvE, we're there just for healing, we can dps ok and ops aren't impossible with us but having a dps Scoundrel in a HM/NM op is basically asking your other dps to step it up a notch to make up for what you're losing had you picked another melee dps class (which is essentially a good 100+ dps).