Aurbere Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 In defense of my position here, I need only go as far as the "moral relativist" troll in this thread who made it clear before he went to personal attacks that the Jedi Order and the Sith are "equally" evil and that he was all about those shackles you mentioned. In other words, to at least a fair number of "grey jedi" proponents, it's not about following the will of the Force outside the code. It's about an adolescent rebellion against authority because it's unfair that the Jedi have rules that restrict their whims and ambitions. That's where the line is drawn. Some heed the Force (I still dont like calling them "grey jedi" because of the stupidity of group two), and others heed their own selfish interests, call them morally superior, mask them in "relativism" and declare themselves insurmountably better, smarter, and infalliably right than the rest of us. Those people have soured my opinion of "grey jedi" and far too many like to use that label so I can't simply ignore that. I don't like the grey Jedi either. The majority of them are borderline Sith with their attitude. I say that Qui-Gon is the best "Grey" Jedi because he was humble and still followed the will of the Jedi Council and the Force. He wasn't "I'm so much better than you and I'm always right", he was a humble guy who did what he felt was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extortioninc Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Sadly, to a lot of people (especially the two frequent posters that follow all my posts in a stalker fashion and shoot personal attacks at me because I mention off-hand that I was both educated and an educator), a "simple" story that has a moral flavor to it and, yes, moral absolutism added to its fictional universe is "childish" or worse. These moral relativist types are almost religious in their quest to purge anything that doesn't agree from their agenda from society, even from fiction. The especially obnoxious attacks at me only worsen my opinion of them. In Vader's case, yes, he did die in his redemption. I would leave room in for a "living redemption," like the one that Qel-Droma had where he lived long after his severance from the Force, trained Nomi Sunrider, and was eventually killed but only after having lived for many years as a reformed man. Not all redemptions have to end in death, so long as they aren't made cheap and interchangable. sadly its it clear to me that you are some little chump hiding behind the security of his computer.. Maybe you should stop acting like a thread bouncer and offer some real suggestions instead of chest beating with your overkill english to try and prove to the community that you are the coolest star wars fan in the star wars galaxy.., Maybe if you insult someone you better be ready to be confronted because i highly doubt you talk like this to people in real life and thats the sad thing... wish i had a great life like you so i can troll threads talking about things people dont even care about... p.s can u send me some of your jedi home movies i assume u have alot of time on your hands. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russkiier Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 sadly its it clear to me that you are some little chump hiding behind the security of his computer.. Maybe you should stop acting like a thread bouncer and offer some real suggestions instead of chest beating with your overkill english to try and prove to the community that you are the coolest star wars fan in the star wars galaxy.., Maybe if you insult someone you better be ready to be confronted because i highly doubt you talk like this to people in real life and thats the sad thing... wish i had a great life like you so i can troll threads talking about things people dont even care about... p.s can u send me some of your jedi home movies i assume u have alot of time on your hands. LOL uhm what? Look, there is no reason to insult this guy, unless he has been insulting you, which I don't beleive he (or she) has been. He has an opinion that is different than yours. If you talk like this to people in real life whose opinions differ from yours, thats a sad thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 sadly its it clear to me that you are some little chump hiding behind the security of his computer.. Maybe you should stop acting like a thread bouncer and offer some real suggestions instead of chest beating with your overkill english to try and prove to the community that you are the coolest star wars fan in the star wars galaxy.., Maybe if you insult someone you better be ready to be confronted because i highly doubt you talk like this to people in real life and thats the sad thing... wish i had a great life like you so i can troll threads talking about things people dont even care about... p.s can u send me some of your jedi home movies i assume u have alot of time on your hands. LOL Don't get snippy. He hasn't insulted you. In fact that he has held his position quite well, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I've always been baffled by the notion of Qui-Gon being a Grey Jedi. Yeah he often disagreed with the Council and had a reputation for being a little stubborn a but he was an example of a straight up Lightside Jedi, IMO. He never seemed to question the traditional philosophy of the Jedi regarding the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynaga Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 The point being, you can not use both sides of the force in the canon according to the EU, if you use one side that is the only side you can pull from. Lucas said that you can't walk the line. Quigon was considered grey because he follows the Force in Balance, which meant that while he didn't exclude looking toward the future he lived more in the now. He did not always heed the coucil's will, otherwise he would not have taken Anakin as an apprentice. So I am sorry Revanites, Revan was either light or dark, he wasn't both, and he wasn't a grey Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 (edited) How does not always heeding the Council make him "grey" though? They don't really share any ideological difference, just different preferences for the way to get things done. Edited September 1, 2012 by OldVengeance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 How does not always heeding the Council make him "grey" though? They don't really share any ideological difference, just different preferences for the way to get things done. Yeah, you could theoretically hate the council, refuse to follow any of their instructions and go off to live in isolation without compromising your use of the light side of the force. And the council could theoretically be taken over by a Sith or by a compromised Jedi. The council is a political, or if you prefer, an ecumenical body; it's not an infallible spiritual authority. I think perhaps some people confuse the concept of a "grey jedi" with the idea of a jedi who isn't obedient to the council. Choosing to disobey the council doesn't require that you toss away the entirety of Jedi code and tradition, and it certainly doesn't require that you start using the Dark Side in your spare time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 The point being, you can not use both sides of the force in the canon according to the EU, if you use one side that is the only side you can pull from. Lucas said that you can't walk the line. Quigon was considered grey because he follows the Force in Balance, which meant that while he didn't exclude looking toward the future he lived more in the now. He did not always heed the coucil's will, otherwise he would not have taken Anakin as an apprentice. So I am sorry Revanites, Revan was either light or dark, he wasn't both, and he wasn't a grey Jedi. Actually, it's the Canon according to George Lucas. Before he retconned it as "Something I don't like", it was valid lore. And as for Walking the Line, Mace Windu did it for decades with his mastery of Vapaad. And of course, the greatest Jedi Master of All Time: Johnny Cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverfar Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I want to take a moment to thank everyone who continued the discussion/debate/argument and didn't get distracted/derailed by the exchange between Extortioninc and myself. I confess that some of it is my fault, and I should have returned to the subject matter much sooner and ignored him. Addressing the original topic, I believe was can mostly agree that there is no "code" for the Grey Jedi in any real sense. With the exception of the martial codes of the Imperial Knights, there simply is no basis for a "code" for a grou of individuals, of whatever name, that define themselves by defiance of the will of the Jedi Council. Perhaps "rogue Jedi" is too harsh. I may not particularly like "grey Jedi" as a name because it muddles the mythos that Lucas established, but I've yet to come up with a satisfactory alternative name. I know they exist, though the wild fantasies of light and dark wielding superbeings unmarred and unlimited by either side are ridiculous. I am very glad not everyone buys into that, even those that otherwise support the validation of "grey Jedi." I haven't watched the Clone Wars recently, are there any lore additions (due to Lucas declaring it to be roughly as canon as the movies and radio dramas) from that series that might enlighten me about the "grey Jedi" concept? I heard of some three-part family, and something about Mortis, but it sounded vague and funky, and too much like the "Twilight of the Jedi" series I couldn't stomach. Maybe with some explanation I could go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I haven't watched the Clone Wars recently, are there any lore additions (due to Lucas declaring it to be roughly as canon as the movies and radio dramas) from that series that might enlighten me about the "grey Jedi" concept? I heard of some three-part family, and something about Mortis, but it sounded vague and funky, and too much like the "Twilight of the Jedi" series I couldn't stomach. Maybe with some explanation I could go with it. Not really. Lucas wouldnt allow it. No Grey Jedi, there may be Jedi who dont follow the Jedi Council, but he or she still uses The Light-Side. Light-Side or Dark-Side. No in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverfar Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Not really. Lucas wouldnt allow it. No Grey Jedi, there may be Jedi who dont follow the Jedi Council, but he or she still uses The Light-Side. Light-Side or Dark-Side. No in between. Apparently the Clone Wars series introduced something called the "Ones" that threw a complication in that. Haven't seen it myself yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Apparently the Clone Wars series introduced something called the "Ones" that threw a complication in that. Haven't seen it myself yet. Not really, at least in my opinion. The Mortis Arc showed that balance is there with the LS and DS. But no matter what, the DS will cause Imbalance because in the end the DS will try to destroy the LS in some way shape or form. Hence, the Sister and Brother lived perfectly together for a while until the Son managed to kill her. So really, the only way for balance is No DS users while the DS may still be there, and LS users. Thats how I take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverfar Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Not really, at least in my opinion. The Mortis Arc showed that balance is there with the LS and DS. But no matter what, the DS will cause Imbalance because in the end the DS will try to destroy the LS in some way shape or form. Hence, the Sister and Brother lived perfectly together for a while until the Son managed to kill her. So really, the only way for balance is No DS users while the DS may still be there, and LS users. Thats how I take it. That's a good way to take it and I think I can safely walk away from the Mortis arc with that in mind, should I ever bother myself with watching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Not really, at least in my opinion. The Mortis Arc showed that balance is there with the LS and DS. But no matter what, the DS will cause Imbalance because in the end the DS will try to destroy the LS in some way shape or form. Hence, the Sister and Brother lived perfectly together for a while until the Son managed to kill her. So really, the only way for balance is No DS users while the DS may still be there, and LS users. Thats how I take it. I think that's how I'm starting to take it. The Sith always use the power given to them for destructive means, thus forcing the Jedi to counter them. I think balance can only be maintained if the Sith are gone. This would allow both Light and Dark to flow naturally, without the Sith increasing the power of the Dark Side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverfar Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I think that's how I'm starting to take it. The Sith always use the power given to them for destructive means, thus forcing the Jedi to counter them. I think balance can only be maintained if the Sith are gone. This would allow both Light and Dark to flow naturally, without the Sith increasing the power of the Dark Side. Of course it'd take only one "I know better than anyone else" Jedi brat to wander off seeking his self-aggrandizement and power and abandoning the Code to start the nasty cycle all over again. Hey, Ajunta Pall did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurbere Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Of course it'd take only one "I know better than anyone else" Jedi brat to wander off seeking his self-aggrandizement and power and abandoning the Code to start the nasty cycle all over again. Hey, Ajunta Pall did it. It's a vicious cycle that never ends. And that is because of the corrupting nature of the Dark Side. One taste can drive many down the path of evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverfar Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 It's a vicious cycle that never ends. And that is because of the corrupting nature of the Dark Side. One taste can drive many down the path of evil. All this Revanite and "grey Jedi" talk is very tempting, alluring, and addicting to so many people who go on and on about it. I can see that happening in-universe as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Of course it'd take only one "I know better than anyone else" Jedi brat to wander off seeking his self-aggrandizement and power and abandoning the Code to start the nasty cycle all over again. Hey, Ajunta Pall did it. I hate that archtypical hero-turned Villain. Its been used thousands of times in the EU Revan Caedus Kun Krayt Malak Pall and the list goes on forever of so many Hero-turned Sith in the EU. Its not that its a bad thing, its just been overused in my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverfar Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I hate that archtypical hero-turned Villain. Its been used thousands of times in the EU Revan Caedus Kun Krayt Malak Pall and the list goes on forever of so many Hero-turned Sith in the EU. Its not that its a bad thing, its just been overused in my opinion... Agreed. It's been terribly overused. And the worst part is that the fans of those characters seem to find them infalliable, not seeing how impressionable and even gullible they were in their downfall. This goes especially for Revan. His fanboys nauseate me to the point of having that sour opinion of "Grey Jedi" even if some people I've debated and argued with here have showed me that not everyone who talks about the "Grey" is some balance-is-super-powers fanatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaigen Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I'm glad that the whole lawful stupid vs chaotic stupid has finally been thrown out of the airlock. BW did a good job pulling both the sith order and the jedi order into the grey zone. Both are right and wrong at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beranzen Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi Al ittle info there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digimanbyte_ID Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 There is no grey in the force. Grey jedi are still lightsiders. Original force users on tython only cared for balance and anyone who though otherwise was considered a heretic and exiled to one moon, either bright one for light side or dark one for obvious reasons. They could only return once they achieved balance within themselves. Honestly I think that would be a cool neutral faction other then the hutt cartel. They seem.... well very Avater: The last airbender. Not the M.night ****along movie but the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Grey jedi are also mentioned in the Jedi Path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickpaw Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 I think what is so confusing about "Grey" Jedi is that there are no real organization among them (aside from splinter cults such as the Zeison Sha, Jal Shey, Voss, etc... which are very self-contained). And in any case, the idea of "Grey" has little to do with a person's moral alignment. In most cases, the label of "Grey Jedi" is given to the individual in question and not claimed by that person. The council might see this person as "grey," but that person certainly won't. The criteria for being called "grey" are many and varied. Sometimes merely disagreeing with the Council is enough grounds to be considered a "Grey Jedi." At other times one truly is on a dark path that could easily lead into being a Dark Jedi, which implies a lack of faith not in the Jedi but in the Light side of the Force (or just the Force, for those who believe that there is only this and the Dark-side-cancer). So it is my personal opionion that "Grey Jedi" do not truly exist. It is a title that exists in the opionions of those who gave it to them. Everyone wants to be one probably because they want to be a "Wolverine Jedi." Note that it is possible to be faithful to the Light (or Force) without following the Code. These are merely my opionions based on my observations of the Star Wars mythos, and the reader is free to disagree and hold his own views. I mean no offense to anyone who does not share my views. I do not consider my arguements superior to anyone elses. Shadow Quickpaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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